While I was at the Komatsu display at Conexpo I saw a couple Chinese taking pictures of a new Komatsu excavator only they had the camera deep in the bowels of the pump area. I asked a Komatsu rep what was up and he said it was Chinese engineers looking to reverse engineer the equipment and said it is very common. I never had any intention of buying any Chinese equipment anytime soon but having witnessed this it will be a cold day in America when I do. What are your thoughts?
Geez, that is something else isn't it?
You think Komatsu didn't do the same thing to CAT?
the big names all buy a new competitors model ,and then strip it bit by bit ,its no different really
I was at the cat booth and saw Sany people spying. Imitation is the best form of flattery. I saw people spying at New Holland and JD as well, but they weren't Chinese.
Having spent a little time in a cat 225 I guess I should be grateful they did!
Everyone does the same, maybe not as obvious like this but rather they buy a competitors machine and tear it down inhouse. Maybe the chinese can't afford to buy a machine for teardown?
i dont think this type of thing can be prevented. back in the day komatsu was know to buy one of everything cat built just to "see how it worked ". chinese equipment manufacturer LIU GONG has just purchased dressta . which built machines which are directly traced to international harvesters payline. at one time the number 2 supplier of construction equipment in the world. may not seem like a big deal but everything is for sale and i think its only a matter of time before they purchase a bigger ,more known company .it really wouldnt take much. if a few of these asian companies merged think of the buying power they would have. brian
Not a big deal........... Ford and Chevy have buying each others cars and tearing them apart for years. International and John Deere have done it also. I can remember a time when the Japanse were at trade shows doing the same thing and now we consider them to build top of the line equipment. This too shall come to pass.
Even if you buy a all American made piece of equipment , if there is such a thing any more,the sad thing is we all in some way are converting them into foreign machinery by the parts we replace on them, seams like you can't by much these days without the box marked Mexico,China,Japan.
So far I haven't found a camera that would photograph the inside of a hydraulic system. The Chinese taking photos would do a lot better to just buy the service manual and work from that. All the system operations and many if not most of the dimensions are there. As far as excavators go, Komatsu is the only one I know of that makes all their own components. So far Komatsu hasn't copied anyone on those and I don't know of anyone who has tried to copy Komatsu. It is a funny photo though. Thanks
I have heard that this goes both ways with Komatsu and Cat.
We were out there this year and didn't run across any of this but in the show before this one we watched writgen drag guys out from under pavers and mills it was very entertaining.
we have a bobcat track skidsteer that we have problems with. the dealer checked to who had it and where it has been. come to find out Cat owned it at some point. they figure Cat pulled it apart and put it together again but not the same way it came apart. so I figure all the companies do it to their competitions machines at some point. I wish they put them back the way they came apart.
Chinese "ingenuity" Chinese? Here is an example of what we are bombarded with daily in the dental profession--upstart Chinese cloners. Would you want your teeth cleaned with an ultrasonic scaling instrument named "Woodpecker"? Hahahahaha! As "Linda" "say", "Hope all fine". Dr. Jim Dear Friend Hope all fine! (*^__^*)..... It is spring here, nice season. Now we begin our promotion, will provide better discount for our clients. Such as teeth whitening pen, home use teeth whitening kit.... Now our popular product HR-DP13 begin the promotion too. It is USD995/pc now. Please see its description,it can connect with 2-hole or 4-hole handpice, with Woodpecker LED curing light,Woodpecker Ultrasonic scaler and so on. It has a beautiful outlook like a travel bag which is very convenient. HR-DP13: USD995/pc FOB Zhengzhou Standard Features: 2pcs 4-hole or 2 hole handpiece holder 1pc 3-way syringe 1pc Saliva ejector 1pc Ultrasonic Scaler 1pc LED curing light 1set Water Supply 1set Oilless compressor (550W, 115L/min) 1pc 6L air tank 1pc On/Off Foot Switch If you are interested in, please tell me,can quote delivery fee soon. And other discounted products you need,just please let me know. Look forward to hearing from you soon. Have a good day! Best wishes Linda Huaer Technology Co., Ltd Tel: 86-371-86097306 Fax: 86-371-69067368
reminds me of the poster that told us to stop posting pictures of the 31000 Manitowoc crane... someone would build it from the photos we were posting LOL
Daewoo - Doosan owns Bobcat. It's coming. The sad part is, everything has a price.
Liebherr even does their own machines to build their components to their excavators. It´s funny then they calls their manufacturing plant in France for the mini excavator plant, all machines under 100 metric tons.
Yeah, as everyone else said, all of them do it, I was involved with a survey where a manufacturer has 4 other brands of machine and their own lined up and we went through and rated them, I was looking at somthing on their machine and asked an engineer about it "Yeah, the hydraulic filter is located here, its sucks, give it a 1 out of 10" Some of them realize that there is room for improvement, the cocky ones think theirs is the best regardless
the chinese will overwhelm the US excavator market with quantity and price like the japanese and koreans did to us with quality. i grew up on drott excavators...you needed things to start the day, extra hydraulic hoses, 5 gals of hyd. oil, gallon of motor oil, hydraulic hoses, anti-freeze...along comes komatsu and hitachi...that all quit. chinese are going to give the american market all that, plus a considerable cost savings.
Last con expo i was looking at the national boom trucks, specifically the new 900H they let me fire it up to look at the LMI system that was a first of its kind on this machine. You should have seen the Chinese engineers RUN OVER with camera's in hand. The boys from WI were having NONE OF IT. they were forming a human wall and keeping them outta the booth. this went on for 20 min, it was actually pretty damn hilarious. One of the Guys said they had been doing this for two days before the show even opened and he was going to be damned if they were going to do it before the show closed
i hear on the grapevine there is a chinese version on the 830 Komatsu mining truck
i dont no what it is but really liked a komatsu id prefer a doosan compare to a komatsu but i dont no if they are from the same country
I was told that the very first komatsu crawler dozers had parts that would interchange with cat. 35 years ago people would laugh at stuff made in J-A-PAN . Nowadays people are trying to buy stuff made in japan.. well maybe not RIGHT now, with stuff coated with radiation. let people say and think what they want. but in 20 more years we will most likely want stuff made in china.
The day is coming just remember the chinese still are nation of thinkers with all the willing employees they need to make it happen at least untill they reach the level of living standards that we enjoy and want a position instead of a job .Someday chinese equipment will be thought of with the same reguard we now give a cat ,deere ,case or komatsu
Hi All, This copying things some sort like the way it is in almost any industry, be it heavy machines, cars, even cakes. I remember working in a car development team when the team hire cars and studied them, like how the door sound when we shut the door, the seat, eg how comfy, the panels, the dash, the gear knob etc etc. We try to understand what make certain cars give certain 'expensive' sound when we shut the door (German prestigious cars). Even that 'expensive' sound on door shutting is studied and immitated upon. I remember fitters from UK car company used to tell me jokes about the Japanese when the Japs came for industrial visits in UK car factory back in the 50's and 60's. He said, "they took pictures of everything they saw, they even took pictures of my hammer" and he showed me his homemade hammer. As far as that. The Japs going as far as copying the lifestyle of the US to be like the US. They drink Coke to be like the Americans. See how schoolchildren wear suit going to school (Tokyo Drift movie). I like repairing cars, and come across many Japs car in my repair years. Then when I come across older cars like old Fiat, I thought to myself, "hey, this brake system is very similar to the Japs ones that I have repaired in the past". I thought at first that the Fiat was copying the Japs, but actually, it is the other way round. Well, this copying things is not new. The Japs copied the European for cars. They copied some others for the heavy machines. Now the Chinese are copying everything, from laptops, handphone to heavy machines etc etc. Now they are not good, the same when the Japs trying to sell their first cars to the world back in 60's and 70's. My 2 cents opinion.. Thanks Zul Malaysia
Who were they? Cat engineers? :stirthepot Ok on a serious note. I hear all the comparisons between the Japs copying back in the 60's and the Chinese now. There is a huge difference in my opinion. The Japs back then and still today have a government that is largely free enterprise and doesn't have dreams of becoming the world super power. One difference between then and now is that the "World Power" status has kind of switched from military to economic. The Chinese will copy and imitate until they get as technically advanced as the West than watch out. No nation is putting as much effort into spying as the Chinese. They want our economic secrets, military secrets, and whatever else they can get their hands on. They are unafraid to spend money to get the secrets they want. So some company doesn't allow them at their show booth? That's no problem, they just hire one of the "all-American" guys in the shop to get the info they need.
Maybe you are all too young to remember that after the 2nd world war anything made in Japan was rubbish, absolute cheap, worthless crap, however over the years became better and better until they are what they are today. Then came Korea and Taiwan, now they are all world industrial hi-tech heavyweights, too. China are going through their infancy and if you select the right companies and specify exactly the quality and materials you require, you can get it. It is all evolution. China is now the world's workshop and providing they keep their inflation under control will be a formidable force in the future. We have been manufacturing excavator and wheel loader attachments in China over the last four & a half years and once they worked out what we wanted we have had no problems. No different to training anyone up to your requirements. We sent over all of our drawings and specified everything down to the nuts and bolts, hi-strength steel specifications, weld sizes, weld quality, etc. We never have any problems. Over here, we have some of the harshest conditions in the world and we don't break or prematurely wear attachments. What it does enable us to do though, is provide a high performance attachment, manufactured from better materials, with bigger welds to the market at a very competitive price. After all, that's what everyone is pushing for isn't it?
I'm in the manufacturing industry and they are going through the same things as far as equipment being made in china, korea. I remember reading a few years back about how well built the British equipment was mid-century compared to even the north american stuff. Turns out that sometimes building stuff to last many years is not always the best way to build things. When the north american equipment was wearing out so was the technology that went into it when it was built. The british equipment was still runinng and machining, but there tolerance and speed was reflective of when it was built. Hopefully the cost is reflective of the poor quality build, but if it gets through its life cycle with minimal repair cost then most companys are farther ahead by getting the cheaper stuff. I would rather it last longer because I can only afford old junk myself, but as far as making money goes it can sometimes pay to go cheap.
I don't know if I would jump to any conclusions about this. I think it is good to learn from other experts in the field in any area. Now don't get me wrong I do not think the Chinese manufacturers are on par with other construction equipment companies. However I don't think this is indicative that they are. I'm sure some of the other manufacturers do the same. It is just smart IMO.
Me and Dirtman were talking to a deere guy about the punch plate belly pans and had the access door open. Little asian dude came out of nowhere, camera at the ready. I guess he really wanted some pics of the pump. The deere guy somehow saw him and slammed the door with a satisfying kaboom. :lmao
The difference between companies like Deere, Cat, Komatsu, etc (I'll call them legit companies) and "companies" like the Chinese makers is that legit companies buy each other's products to check out the competition and see if they can gain an edge. They'd be fools not to do so. But the legit companies still put their own name on their products and aren't trying to trick people into buying something they are not. The Chinese companies on the other hand, aren't interested in their competitor's products for the reasons of trying to make improvements or gain an advantage...they want to just outright copy the machine and avoid doing actual work on the design as much as possible. They'll even get to the point of counterfeiting a legit company's product in an effort to sell them or trying to make their product resemble the legit product as much as possible with very minor changes, both with the goal of tricking the buyer. They've done it on everything from construction equipment to military hardware. Another thing about the Chinese is that they are perfectly capable of producing a high quality product...if they want to. But why bother doing that when they can still move a lot of product to unknowing, ignorant, or uncaring buyers?
There is nothing wrong with gathering intelligence from the ingenuity of another company, its chaos theory in action. Company A attempts to reverse engineer and replicate a component from another company and in doing so creates a copy that is modified ever so slightly. No company can ever replicate the idea or component of another company exactly and as a result they are still creating a unique product. This keeps the market alive and vibrant for better or for worse. Collecting good intelligence about your competitors is simply good business, pure and simple. As the old adage goes "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer".
One thing in here that nobody has mentioned is something that I have been driving at here for a long time about chinese products. The steel, castings, and other materials needed to manufacture a piece of heavy equipment or anything else for that matter are of very poor quality. I have been there, I have seen it, I have installed industrial equipment there. They just don't get it and probably never will. When you start with poor materials you get poor final product.
I agree to a point, but there are ways around the issue of quality, Scania are manufacturing buses over there in a partnership with Higer (a Chinese coach builder), same factory however the Scania product uses a chassis built in europe and shipped in and the body assembled (with higher quality steel and componets) with Scania engineers present and ALOT more quality control compared with the 100% higer product Scania build around 700 units a year compared with 20,000 Higer units which retail in Australia for less than half the price of the Scania unit but are poorly built and would be lucky to last 3 years (they crush them after 3 years in China) so youd have rocks in your head to buy one but give it 10 years who knows wages in China are going up quality may improve after taking lessons from other gobal companies and India might be the next global king of manufacturing when their costs get too high
But by the same token, protecting the competitive advantage you have (from your better engineered product), is also good business. And while the details are something for the patent attorneys to hash out, but "the ingenuity of another company" is frequently protected under law--that's why we have patents. It is after all, their "intellectual property ". To use it as your own, without giving proper compensation, goes beyond ethical and legal boundaries. Even though a foreign entity is beyond the reach of local laws, does that make it any less unethical? And welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums. :drinkup
Haha, funny story. Unfortunately for John Deere there probably isn't much they can do to stop the same guy from going into a store acting as a prospective buyer. It is nice to know the American engineers of heavy machinery are some of the best in the world. It makes me proud of my country.
The chineese LOVE To do this! they get paid to have you come over and completely refine there whole manufacturing process and start to integrate their design teams into making things the American way. Now you have trained and refined your own death force. NOW they are even more equipped to build much better equipment at rock bottom prices.
Guys I am New to this but I just Bought a Mitsubishi ME25 Excavator Ser#E4E00573 I have already a Mitsubishi Bd2gII dozer and have always gotten parts from Rhine Equip. but they tell me that They can not get parts or manuals for this machine am I in trouble here or is there a way to get parts and manuals for this machine any help would be appreciated.
close, not so much the american way, scania are a europian truck/engine manufacturer but i agree with you
raress, You say give it ten years and the quality may improve. The japs and the koreans figured out that you have to have quality to compete in the United States. The japs even taught some United States manufacturers a thing or two after they got their act together. The chinese have been at it for 25 years or better. So far they have not figured the quality part out and take short cuts to reduce their costs which affect the quality of the things they make as well as cut corners which make the items fail to meet United States safety standards. Case in point brake rotors for automotive use. I am not sure if they will ever get it. As I have stated before in here, I have been there, seen it, installed industrial equipment there and ran up against the great wall of china many times.
This is why the chinese will never compete with the big boys. No ingenuity. I will not buy any chinese equipment.
Welcome to the Forums Alien!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
Never say never.... Take a look at this video. The report can be found in the April 2011 issue, downoladable at www.khl.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLiGxWdz_TM When the first Yellow Table was published at 2003, China had a 1,6% market share....today it's 15%!
you are so humorous.
Not a bit deal``````````I think so too.I am Chinese.
If they can reverse engineer that equipment through only a few photos, I really admire their ability. what if they just buy that excavator, their reverse engineer work would be much easier. According to Wawrecker's opinion, there should set a "no photographing "sign near that machine.
Whats really scary to me is that a lot of the Chinese manufacturers don't need to reproduce the quality of some of the big players today. They're perfectly fine with imitating the 'look' of a product and selling it for 50% less than the North American brands. Their markets don't need or expect the same quality of machine that we do in North America. I found a good quote to illustrate this point - its a different ballgame in China;
Many components and parts are made from china, komatsu even joint with suntui a chinese heavy equipment company. China supplies most of the big brands parts.. Cat also has a factory there and so dose other brands. It's not about china to worry, it's komatsu, cat, ect. ( QC ) Quality Control that matters.
No offence, also i'm not chinese, but i can asure you they can buy more than just a machine. They bought many major companies and they keep buying. Maby these ppl where the guys that made that part and came by to check the finished project.....who knows??
This is truth. Thats why I hate the Chinese junk being forced on us.
As an employee of a large Cat dealer. I can tell you a large portion of the new parts and componats are marked as made in China. They have also moved a large portion of ther production oversees. Quiality of parts has gone down. inferior metals, poor fit ect Thank you unions, politicians and inviromentalists
Either some production is coming back to the U.S. for CAT, or new production is not headed overseas: http://blog.chron.com/houstonshiring/2010/08/new-caterpillar-facility-in-victoria-to-employ-500/ http://www.carolinalive.com/news/story.aspx?id=730153#.T4HsFoF-gf0 :usa:usa:usa Like Warren Buffer said, "In the long run, it's hard to short America" . :usa:usa:usa
Just for a twist on things, a Chinese company building a plant in the US - http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2012/02/golden_dragon_chooses_alabamas.html :cool2
COMEBACK FOR CAT: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/09/us-caterpillar-bet-idUSBRE8380AY20120409 A very interesting statement is buried in the article about Hyundai excavators.
We ran a new 45t Hyundai digger for around 2 years, didnt miss a beat, great cycle times and pleanty of power and you could buy 3 of them for the price of one CAT 365C, parts were abit hard to get though, the bucket only accepted their brand of GET and there was only one style of teeth and the dealers only kept one set in stock! I was impressed though we all thought it was going to be a POS but it was a cracker
I hate to say it but if WE dont start looking at what we are buying and where it coming from the USA is going to be a dump full of chinese junk. Try going out to get some clothes that are made here on our soil, your going to have a very hard time finding a compleat outfit you can wear out in public..... If the quality was even equal to what we have produced in the past I would not be as harsh but the truth be told for the most part its all junk. RANT OVER. sorry if I have offended any one that has posted here. its just my opinion.
I agreewith you all the way xcmark. I have spent considerable time in china in the last 25 years in their foundries and steel mills. Their stuff is junk all the way. However, we are already a dumping ground for all of their worthless no quality ****.
While CAT's new excavator factory will be in Texas near Houston, parts can be sourced from anywhere for assembly, so all of a sudden you could see American made junk. That has been a common scenario with farm tractors in recent years.
the same with our "locally made" cars 70% of the parts are imported soon they will be just locally assembled
that is where the problem is THEY have the money and alot more than many people think , just look at the list of what the Chineese bought ! Merger with Volvo Merger with Dressta Merger with Palfinger and the list goes on and on , alos Sany built a plant into the east-southern USA they will soon flood the market and all the big honcho company will have to re-act or go down ! don't get me wrong I don't like to see that happen but that is what I can see ina near future . The guys have the money the power and also they are not afraid of public opinion.
well Cat has a few factorys in china same as komatsu and the rest of them cat even makes machines in china and hounestly Sany excavators are good Luigong wheel loaders are good CAT in china have there own brand here called SEM runs 90% of cat parts and the sales director an american told me that SEM cant even keep up with Luigong for there wheel loaders.
LiuGong are the no.1 for wheel loaders in terms of numbers produced. They have bought Dressta so now have access to the old IH/Dresser dozers and pipe layers, and associated track and transmission technology. My prediction is in 10 years they'll be the Chinese Komatsu.
I do air cooled vw's and almost all of the chinese parts for them are complete crap. Particularly cranks and rods., tin doesnt fit, nothing is quality. There are a couple of brands that have full time QC people there and there stuff works ok, so far. Just makes my garage full of old german parts more valuable, sorry for the hijack. I hate chinese equipment parts, the detroit diesel parts are really bad.
mate what you need to look at is the importer of the parts . its the same as Ram's or anything from china you want cheap parts well then dont expect good qullity. chinese make good parts the thing is there is more bad parts on the market then good and that is beacuse everybody when they talk to the chinese manufactures say we just want cheap. basicly mate you get what you pay for.
So what you are saying is that the Chinese can't make quality parts for any better price than the domestic manufacturers. I'll make sure all my customers read this.
that is not what i said basicly what iam saying you can get good parts for good prices but if you ask for super cheap then you get crap dont worrie mate keep buying CAT and other over priced parts best of luck to ya
Guess where the last oil seals i bought from CAT in the nice yellow pack were made ?
I agree with JGS's comments , the quality of China made products most of time is based on the importer, not Chinese manufactures, once importers go to china, the most important thing they care about is price, then delivery time, quality always in the last place. I work on GET parts in china, I can tell you guys for sure that a part of Chinese manufactures could make very good quality bucket teeth, at least 90% of ESCO or Hensley original parts, IF THEY REALLY WANT TO MAKE IT. but the problem is quality means price, we can't use 50% costs of ESCO to make 90% quality of them, but that is not our clients want, they just want us use 10% costs to make 40% of quality, if we don't do that, they buy from others, there are many competitors in the industry, if we don't do it, there must be someone else would like to do. That causes what you see today, Chinese products are junk, that is unfair, if you think quality today drops, please complain to the politicians and capitalists.
*we can use 50% costs of ESCO to make 90% quality of them
might have been made there but they would have been made to alot higher standards than any of the run of the mill stuff, but I hear what your saying though, you wanna buy the best and support local but you get that it's abit of a kick in the guts