Hello I have a HT 50 Wombat Skid Steer which displays an interesting habit of randomly "clicking" when attempting to start. The click is like it has a flat battery, but if you "click the starter key" it eventually turns over with no problem. It may take anything from 1 to 4 attempts. I replaced the main relay, the smaller relay behind the starter switch, the starter motor and solenoid and obviously the battery. I have heard of another Chinese machine (not a skid steer) displaying a similar quirk. It is by no means a major problem, just a small quirk that I can live with, however I am intrigued to find out if anybody else has come across the same thing? cheers
A picture of the machine under discussion This is the Wombat HT 50
Did you find the main isolator on the loader? Maybe the Wombat has one too and that is where our cause is common to your two and my one machine. It will quietly click once when you turn the key from off to on and viceversa. Just a little joke I forgot yesterday about the Wombat loader. (The brand name is "Junlion"). The knob for the engine stop is labelled "Extinction Button"! Cheers. M.
The loader does not appear to have a main isolator, thought the Wombat does. The Wombat has a grey handle which completely cuts all power from the battery. My humour - the Wobat has a sticker which says, Caution CRASH engine before ........
Went past the Wombat dealer today and he said that if the solenoid/relay is defect defective it would never start, so he suggested I replace the ignition key
Very interesting, I have never seen one before, looks very much like a Case machine. Lee
Not sure about the CASE, the HT 50 has 50 horsepower and weighs 2.8t
Lee, you are right except you forgot to put in "very very old" in front of the Case. As usual the chinese probably bought one here that was wore out and took it back to copy it.
Just like the Japanese did in the 60's and 70's with a lot of stuff. The problem is that when they are $27K including GST and the others are $50-80k, its hard to justify paying the extra cash. But with that comes little problems.
Sounds good when you say it fast d4dozer. That version of a Case skidsteer goes back to probably the 1970's. They had an air cooled small four cylinder gasoline engine, drive train that left everything to be desired, had no power, no push, no response inthe hydraulics. They were a very crude machine and not very productive. That early design was mainly for agricultura applications, mainly for farmers to clean up sh** out of cattle barns where they could not get in with a tractor with a loader on it. But look where it was built. That is about that they are capable of in china only there they would use 450 people with forks, shovels and wheelbarrows.
I am not an advocate of Chinese machines - I understand how nice some of these modern machines are, I drove a Mustang, they wanted 35K for it - an old heap of ...... It needed money spent on it and I needed a machine for weekend use only. The wombat has as much power as the Mustang, a four cylinder water cooled motor, with hydraulics to drive a post hole digger, three way bucket and a few other attachments. By no means a top of the class machine, but in the 6 years I have had it, I have been served well, had I bought the Mustang I would have spent a CASE of money on it by now. My machine has 325 hours on it since new - will it get to 10,000 hours, probably not, will it see out my time on this planet, it probably will. So I will say it again, not fast, but slowly, when a machine costs $27K and does what you want, a second hand (non Chinese) machine with 10,000 hours cost more than a new Chinese machine, why would I pay $50 - 80K for something else. If the machine was working every day and my lively hood depended upon then sure, do the maths! Would I like a new western machine, sure, but bang for my buck, this has been good value, maths is simple. Yes some annoying traits, but it does everything a non Chinese bobcat will do.
It sounds to me like you are getting low voltage to the starter solenoid. I have had the same problem on pick ups, notably Toyotas. The low voltage will not energize the magnet enough to make a solid connection inside the solenoid. This leads to a burnt spot, and then each time it seems to get worse. One usual suspect is a bad ground cable, or the ground cable not being in close contact to the starter. You may try adding a new ground direct from the starter to the battery, or the isolater switch. If that does not work, check the wires on the positive side, both the main power to the starter motor, but more than likely the wire from the switch to the solenoid. Your little machine seems to serve you well, and that is what counts. We can't all have the latest and greatest machines.
Jerry - Thanks for that - food for thought - I will check it out. What is interesting is that the battery, which has been replaced at least twice in its life, has a heap of blue & white crystal's forming around one of the battery leads (copper sulphate?) The amount produced is subdtantial, perhaps a "blob" 50 mmm (2 inches) in diameter. I wonder if that means anything - I used the same brand of batteries in my other machine but it has only formed on the bobcat. I assumed it was a result of the dissimilar metals used on the battery clamp.
You may have the right thought about what caused the crystals, but they might have "migrated" down the inside of the battery cables, causing a loss of contact inside of a cable that looks fine on the outside. I have had that very thing strand me in the desert before, and now keep a sharp eye out for it.
Any suggestions on how do determine how far down the cable it may have gone without ripping of the insulation.....
In my experience, once it starts, it will go all the way to a low spot, then sit and eat on the wires. Short of stripping the cable, it is hard to find.
I also have had this problem on Japanese cars and trucks. After replacing all the usual suspects like you did I found a solution that worked. I added a relay to the ignition circuit close to the starter. I used the stock ignition wire coming from the key switch to the starter solenoid to switch the new relay I added. Then just 12ga wire directly from the battery side of the starter to power the relay, then another 12ga wire from the switched side of the relay to the starter solenoid. Bingo never clicked again!
LT-x7 - your post also suggests not enough power making it to the starter? I wonder why it is an intermittent problem then?
It was not enough power going to the starter solenoid, plenty of power at the starter motor itself. This was in a motor swapped car, before I fixed the problem I replaced the the starter, battery cables, ignition switch, and added extra grounds. No clue why its intermittent.
thanks for that LT-X7
To test the integrity of the cable you need to do a cranking voltage drop test.I am assumeing a 12 volt system,with your voltmeter set on low voltage 1 to 3 voltsDC you clamp the positive lead on the battery and the negative lead on the other end of that cable at the starter.Read the volt meter while trying to crank the starter motor.The spec is .1 volt per foot of cable.A 3 foot cable should be @ or less than.3 volts while cranking(or trying to crank).you should do this on all your heavy gauge battery cables.You can also test regular post type battery connections the same way(to verify the need to service your battery cable connections).To do this you would put the pos clamp on the cable clamp end and hold the neg end on the post in the center of the clamp being carefull not to touch the clamp as that would cause you to get no reading.You would be amazed how much voltage would use the less resistant voltmeter path around a dirty battery post.
biodiesel - thanks for that, a very useful bit of info!
The only difference is the decals LOL
Corrosion on the copper itself under the insulation should not cause issues unless the copper itself has corroded to the point of disconnect. Not very likely.
Agreed it's not very likely, but D4 did mention a "2 inch diameter" mess of acid (which isn't from dissimilar metals, it's from acid leaking out of the battery, from the battery being overcharged by a poorly designed, or copied, voltage regulator, possibly combined with high average temperatures). A 2" mess of acid deposits will corrode whatever it wants, use the voltmeter to find where you're losing voltage and quit guessing already.
Interesting, does acid leak around the battery pole? I cleaned up the mess - it was like a salt. No other acid damage found. cheers
Yes, and Yes it is a powdery sulphate of/or something. They make little felt washers that go underneath the cable clamp that are impregnated with a neutralizer to prevent that sort of damage.
Ht 50 Hi there, yes I also have the same issue. Have you managed to find the problem? I think the chinese wiring can be a problem.
The problem still persists, as random as can be. Whilst I have replaced the starter motor, I would not be surprised if the problem is there.
The problem seems to be the ignition switch to starter solenoid area. It is also possible they spec'd too small of a wire for the solenoid circuit. By the time the juice gets to the solenoid there may not be enough. 12v doesn't travel far.
hootowl Consider this 1) it sounds like the solenoid clicks in 2) sometimes it will start first go all day 3) some times it is a problem all day 4) if it is a problem day, you just keep trying, click, click, click, starter cuts in for a second and then dies, click, click , click, starter cuts in and starts....... If it was the problem you suggest why would we have good days and more to the point, after trying a dozen times, the wire would heat and the resistance become higher making the problem worse rather than eventually starting thoughts?
Well all these years later..... i replaced the starter motor and the problem went away for 200 hours. It came back and I replaced the starter motor again and it lasted another 250 hours......... The local dealer recons no one else has this problem. 700 odd hours and purchasing the same starter motor for the 4th time...... There must be some inherent fault in the starter motor.
VERY common problem on Nippon Denso starters. Have heard before adding a relay helps. Solenoid contacts arc and won't carry the current to engage the starter motor. I've had to take my starter out and sand the contacts a few times. I'm going to look into adding a relay because it is very frustrating when sometimes it works great and other times doesn't work at all.
Thanks for that, makes sense! i am interested in the relay idea.