Wasnt too long ago we really didnt need any workers and really dont feel all that sorry for the ones with a big shortage. Every other work was basically our way or the hiway and the drug testing every few minutes,,, they going to do 10$ worth of tests to save 5 in insurance and used as another way to get rid of people. The reality was some of those people had no biz in the jobs they were in and only there due to a poor economy all driven by HR types aint got a clue where the parking brake even is. The TSA was a great example of this, hired smart people to be security gaurds,,, well they train and last 3 weeks where they should have went down to the mall and got some used to doing that work. I was in a shitbox factory got that big idea, got rid of all the best help. So,,, I was at a trade meeting the other day which was basically a **** and wine session, of course happy hr after but I keep my mouth shut. They all offering medical, higher wages, all kinds of stuff and I really dont blame lots of these people for saying fu, do it yourself. Lots of them been treating them like crap for so long anyone wants to work there already been thru it,,, but,,, didnt hear of a single peep about the whiz quiz, not one word. Wonder if they gonna get it at hire on,,, is Lowes and Home Depot still got it on the bannjers or have they decided maybe this wasnt such a winner of an idea?
I worked in the trades during the 80s and early 90's and things were wayyyyy different. A lot of drinking and not much said till a guy was visably impared but at that time being really good welder bought a guy a lot of slack and some of the places wer work not many wanted to come up and fool with anyone. Used to drink with the bosses, go to the bar at lunch, i am sure its a lot different. Big wonder we didnt hurt ourselves more. I was on a plant expansion in early 80's maybe, was a real demand for men. 30 contractors on one job and men dragging every time the overtime moved, they finally figure that out a little but one outfit had the labor buy a case of vodka every day and dump in one of the coolers. In hindsite probably good idea on 7/12. They didnt pour it on till the end of the shift but sending them home tanked probably kept them out of the bars.
I am not around a bunch of kids so dont know what that is like. There is still some incidents but the crack on DUI has really been the number 1 safety thing probably and both direct and indirect result is a lot of people not doing ***** they routibnely did and I think a lot of kids are better today, they really are. Yhe bad news travels far and fast,,, if it bleeds it leads but lots of kids simply not interested in some of that and we were really bad. We were the kind your mother warned you about, carried the big coolers, got together and bought dope by the pound then, South Florida in 85,,, ha but before that I live in small town. Every night we do something. Was working Ironwork at 19, paid for car, no real living cept to eat. I dont see people stagger in to work anymore. I worked second shift on a nuke for 6 or 8 months,,, could sleep there though.
2 years ago I was threatened for lack of better wording to sign a pledge said I would vote no on min wage bill. I see that went by the wayside in a hurry. Exact same guy said it was gonna bust him now complaing he cant get anyone even with a pocket full of money. I remember I was dating a news editor at the time and the owners came back from some winter trip all tan and in their Mercedes, aint been there in months and start down the staff, they using too many pencils and they really couldnt afford a new mouse for the keyboards, stopped in to tell the editor she wasnt sposed to print any news that wasnt from official sources. That and the news was only filler between the adds. Lost the best they had over that. I am amazed how many people in the world are actually hired cause they are stupid and dont know anything. Its a science. Thats why the poly scie degrees to go along with others.
So if Joe can sit home and get 500 more a week than working I kind of find it hard to blame him.
So is drinking and posting on Saturday morning now a thing? I've been gone all week- I must have missed the new rules.
Only cream sodas and root beer floats.
No, it really was a wonder how the tables have turned, used to be a guy had to jump thru the hoops now we promising them everything. Wasn't too long ago most had to have a perfect resume and today barely got to write his name. This was just a ramble and comparing the contrast over the years and how things change. Our generation was out of control, then workers really had to suck up and now we have the reverse and lots of employers seem to feel like they entitled to workers now. 2 years ago whining they couldn't give small raises and now they seem to have plenty to toss at it and see what sticks.
It's a market shift people don't want to work trades now and construction is in a bull market there are not enough people to perform demanded work prices will go up till there is an oversupply of labor then and only then will the low and barley performing be weeded out I have no idea what really went on in the 80s and 90s as far as drug abuse and alcohol around jobs heard lots of stories but since the early millennium lawyers and insurance companys have made it very hard to have a alcoholic or needle jockey around any sort of equipment or work space for liability purposes alone I can find guys as I am ready to hire them but they are clean slates and need to be trained cant hire experience and really what passes for top hands these days I really dont want
The thought has occurred to me that a person willing to sit around and collect unemployment instead of working is not the kind of employee that I would want to have. Right now the only people that I know doing that are the unskilled who could only qualify for a minimum wage job to start with. I would expect wait staff in a restaurant to stay with the government's offer. I wouldn't expect and don't know of any mechanics, truck drivers, equipment operators or welders that would be sitting anywhere right now. I see lots of signs out for all kinds of skilled trades that are expecting to hire fully qualified people off the street. Apparently those fully qualified unemployed people don't exist or they won't work for the crap wages and no benefits many places are willing to offer.
Same here. I'd rather hire green and train up. We go through alot with that philosophy but if you go through enough you'll find a keeper every now and then. The term "skilled" in todays terms has a whole other meaning than it did back in the 80's and 90's.
Back when things were busy in the oilfield (Alberta) workers could pick and choose where they wanted to work. When things were slow employers could pick and choose who they wanted. What got to me and the guys I worked with was guys who try to pass themselves off as the greatest thing since sliced bread in their job interview but once on the shop floor were pretty lost and not even close to living up to the hype they had in the interview. I always preferred a job test so they could see what I could do instead of what I could put on paper or pass off in the interview. Remember one guy who had somehow got his welding ticket and was going for his steel fabricator ticket. He thought he was so good because he was going to have 2 tickets. Problem was he couldn't weld as good as some of the 1st year apprentices in the shop. Hard to give much respect to someone who you had to grind their welds off and redo them.
There are several things adding to the "mechanic shortage" with some of them growing in severity over the years. I came through the trades starting in the late 80s/early 90s when you came up through the ranks as helper to apprentice to journeyman and finally if you were good enough, master. For years and years I was the youngest in any of the shops I was at and the old timers would say it was because "nobody wants to work anymore". Now I realize they were not far from the truth. For the last 20 years or so, it has been drilled into children's heads that in-order to make it in life they need a college education and get a white collar job and those who pull a wrench couldn't do anything else and were looked down upon. As school budgets were slashed, industrial arts classes tended to be cut first and never restored. Then these predatory colleges started pushing the student loan programs in high schools with the promise of great paying jobs. So the exposure to the "trades" pretty much ended. I am not anti-college, I'm just stating these actions have added to the problem on top of the student loan debt issue (that is a topic for another day). Mechanics as a whole have also been generally looked down on from every other profession there is and has gotten worse over the years. Think about this, would you rather work in an air conditioned office, never get your hands dirty, start at 9am and never break a sweat or work in a hot, dirty, oily shop, start at 6am or earlier and have grease under your finger nails for the rest of your life ? That was an actual question a guidance councilor asked my nephews when they told him they wanted to be mechanics like their uncle. Another issue is the majority of companies consider mechanics/maintenance a necessary evil and try their best to get it as cheap as they can. I completely understand the whole profit/loss dynamic and how it affects the bottom line but when you try to hire a green mechanic and pay them less than what Mickie D's pays and expected them to show up on the first day with 20 grand in tools, your personal pool will get smaller and smaller. I've been in management meetings were corporate opinion on mechanics was "they are just like city buses, wait 10 minutes and another will come along." Then 3 months later wondering why nobody is applying. In mid-March of 2020, when covid first started to hit hard here in central Texas, the day that Austin/Travis County announced a stay at home order, before anybody even knew what was going to happen, the company I was at just started cutting pay, took bonuses away, cut hourly worker hours all the while expecting the same amount of machines to be flipped. Branch managers and above were not affected, most started working remotely and expected everyone else to pick up the slack. Then when people were potentially exposed at work, got told to go home for 14 days without pay. Some even got cut loose while on the 14 day quarantine, I was one of them. I'm sure things like this happened all over. After awhile, people started asking themselves "why work for a company that preaches family but turns it back that quick" and "why should I show company loyalty when they showed me none". When they called me 9 months later to come back. I never returned their call. The same as most who were furloughed. It's happening in all industries, the work pool in general is burned out, tired of working in high stress environments for employers that are unappreciative and for crap pay. Some have realized they can make due on less and have decided to do so. The extended unemployment benefits that some would blame for worker shortage only is a small part of a bigger picture. The mechanic shortage is only going to get worse as more and more baby boomers retire as nobody, as a general rule, is coming in to re-fill the spots opening up or any in the rest of the trades for that matter.
Welcome to HEF Hundo ! Then the response to the counselor should have been "so, what your saying is you want the brain dead slacker fixing the brakes on your car?"
"No one wants to work" goes right with,,, no one wants to pay. The world was taken over by "Business Adm" types, all going to "save" money and talk to everyone like they are stupid. They but these shitheels in charge the day they come out of school.
I was in a plant was a disaster and the manager fukkin with the janitor. Guy had no experience in anything this plant needed I asked where the electrician was and he started looking at a chart on the wall. Didnt know they didnt have one, 300 people working in a plant with hundred machines, maintainence dept wit a bent screwdriver and 1/4 electric drill, sent someone to store for electric tape 1 roll at a time. Said they were going to train maint guy this next week. Semi moving stock in, trying to keep track on back of scrap paper Talk to them and they know more about it that most people do. Got ready made excuse and reasoning for any question, **** dont even make sense with a sincere look in the eye and dismissive attitude.
Excellent post. Bravo!
Well, I've been on both sides of this fence. I understand as being a employee for a company.....and being a business owner. The shortage of service people started a while back and just gets worse. Getting good employees has to start with THE EMPLOYEE..........by having good work ethic and taking some pride in the job they do. Too many young people think they should draw high pay with no experience, I see it constantly. When I was young you started off as a trainee, you learned as you went along, took advise and instruction well, and EARNED your way to better wages. You also treated your elders with RESPECT and learned from them. I didn't earn top pay until I was 10 years in this business and when I had no where else to climb at that point.......I had the ambition and drive to start my own business. I have always been extremely picky about my work, how I repair something, cleaning up after myself, and treating the customer as I would expect to be treated. Over 30 years self employed and I have never looked back & never had to look for work. It seems the type that get hired now days have no experience and keep their job if they can pass a drug test and show up for work every day. This type of employee isn't going to get paid well unless they prove their worth. On the flip side of this, when I was an employee at a young age.......did I feel underpaid? Doesn't everyone!? I never saw wages keep up with the costs of living during my time but I also realized I didn't have alot of experience even then so I was OK with doing my time to get there. As said in Hundo's excellent post, companies are STILL trying to get a journeyman class tech for pennies. They continue to hire the less experienced, at the cheapest cost, and hope to gain a more profitable business. Most don't look at the bigger picture, they deem servicing/repairing of the equipment as a necessary liability and all the costs with it is just wasted money. They dont understand that by employing the journeyman types, or even good workers willing to learn the business, will actually SAVE them money and turn that liability into a great asset. Less time to service and repair......money saved on unnecessary parts changing,.........smarter parts and service purchasing,...............regularly scheduled PM services.......it DOES pay dividends. The problem is on BOTH sides of the fence. Until those mindsets change.........nothing will.
Motivated-few people are motivated by self interest. Pride-few people are prideful. Workmanship, few people want to develop class workmanship. Skill-few people have necessary skill to work with their hands and mind. If the boss and worker are limited in any of these areas-it's a bad end result.
Have seen some of the better outfits offer signing bonus's for journeyman mechanics. The Unions can be a problem sometimes too. A few years ago there was a big issue at Suncor. They wanted to do random drug testing of all employee's but the union said it was a violation of the workers rights. The union won in the end but I don't think won is the correct term. Drug use in the oilsands/Ft. McMurray is a problem, actually most big operations that do pay well it's a problem. Why the heck is the union protecting the drug users? Good workers who are clean have no problem taking a drug test and don't want to be around the ones doing drugs. Former neighbors brother was on a pipeline job and said there were guys doing cocaine on the job. He sure hoped the guy running the side boom wasn't stoned out of his mind. It could kill somebody!
My Brother who was an assistant principal at a county run trade school up till a few years back used almost those exact words while complaining about the kids the various schools kept pushing at the school he helped run. Not sure it made a dent in their ideas but at least he tried!
Trade schools were often referred to as "Dummy Schools". Funny how the "dummies" who were interested in a trade and applied themselves got an apprenticeship coming out of school and the students at the regular/academic high schools had to fight over a minimum wage job at McDonalds. Stupid people in suits decided trades were out and they weren't going to promote the trades anymore. Attendance dropped so they got rid of the trades schools. I think had the trades continued to be promoted, attendance wouldn't have suffered as much and trade schools would have had enough attendance to be self sufficient. There are some who would have loved to go to a trade school but didn't have a choice when it's no longer an option. Schools being obligated to not fail students is another problem. Some of the students who tried but struggled would have excelled in a trade school. Too many people think you don't have to know much to be in a trade. That needs to change but probably never will.
23 years ago I sat on the board for the diesel program at WWCC. Really the only thing the board was for was to sign off on accreditation for ASAE. Other than that the board would meet twice a year-set eat pizza and listen to babble from instructors. I was on it two years but after I was told three would graduate out of a class of 31 I decided it was a total waste of my time. John Deere has poured a lot of money in their program-and because of poor leadership WWCC no longer has a worthless diesel program because they are deep in debt, lost some state funding and had to curtail diesel, welding, and machine shop classes. So my interpretation of the school is idiots leading the blind. And I'm sure this scenario plays out in other schools around the country also.
I was chairman of the advisory committee for the apprenticeship program. The industry people were serious as hell about what needed to be taught and the minimum skills to be mastered for use at the starting level in the industry. I also was on the committee for the reaccreditation of the regular credit program and sat with some pretty serious state people who were going to cost the institution a whole lot of money if the recommendations weren't followed. In the end, the suit and tie people and old women wearing fancy business suits stepped in wanting diversity and psychology classes and then stood up to take credit for the programs we got redone. The quality of the students became a lot of immigrants who didn't speak english and scammed the system until the government folks cut them off. I wrote a letter to the state apprenticeship program directors and laid out what I thought of the programs and processes and then resigned all those volunteer positions. The school is still there but only does stuff for the trucking industry now.
I was at a conference where there was complaining about the workers. I suggested we need to add a class for executives and a woman jumped in and said,, we had thought of that but that was the end of that, went right back to sipping cocktails bitching how they couldn't find all these workers for their entry level jobs. Got to love the adveryising,,, 15 to 26 an hour,, wonder how many hired on at 26? Bet the rationale was all ready in place as to why that wasn't possible. At least McD is straight up with it. As I mention earlier wasn't too long ago a guy driving 80k car was "explaining" to a pretty good hand how a dollar was going to bust him. I cant really blame some of the worker bees for saying Fogg off. Simple and easy to blame the poor for "scamming" the system. Not one banker went to jail in the last big fiasco. Put the blame on people for taking out loans they couldn't afford but they didnt have to give back 2 points on every loan they shoved thru, could not hand it out fast enough.
Jesus. Working around my backhoe completely sober and rested gives me pause. I try to think through every single activity, asking myself what could go wrong, and if I'm going anything dangerous. I can't imagine being anywhere near these machines or even a construction site, mining operation or on a highway repair if you're impaired. Are people really that stupid, or do they just have a death wish? Maybe part of my attitude comes from a local cop who was drunk and working around his friend's backhoe. He reached into the cab from the back while he was standing on the ground, and got crushed by the hoe arm. He never worked again, and was never the same either.
I remember needing some masonry supplies from the local outfit in my city. I called the place about an hour before quitting time on a Saturday. We were running a class, and the instructor needed some additional materials that we forgot to order. We made it down to the store about 30 minutes before closing. When we asked for a particular brick, the owner asked us to substitute something else for our order. When we asked about this, he explained that he had to run a union shop to get state purchases, and his yard guy operating the forklift would make his life miserable if he had to move material to get what we wanted so close to quitting time. The substituted product was close to the entrance, and wouldn't require moving anything to get to it. We figured the owner had other motivations, but when we went out to the yard with 15 minutes before closing, the union guy was livid. Bitched us out using horrible language for 15 minutes for showing up late, and making his life difficult. When we went back into the office to pay after being loaded, I asked the owner why he didn't fire the guy. He responded that the union would appeal the firing, and he'd have to rehire the guy anyway, so they just avoided using him to keep him off their case. I get how companies screw employees, but unions can be problematic as well.
I posted before about a welding supply I worked at where the cylinder delivery drivers were in a union. I had just started there and was in the back seeing where everything was kept with not much else to do. A truck came to pick up the empties and drop off full cylinders. I started talking to the driver and he was really nice. Then I started helping move cylinders for something to do. About 5 minutes later I was told to go the front by one of long term sales people. He was basically giving me **** for helping the driver because he was union and we weren't. He was nice about it but I was thinking wow, I'm just trying to be productive.
Yeah don't dare help anyone Dave or show initiative. Oh boy you were really stepping on someone toes with that move. Frigging people and their petty crap. I suppose if that union guy had a heart attack only a union guy can give CPR.
I thought it was pretty stupid. It was nothing to do with the driver. That's a real good question if you need a union member to perform CPR.
Seems it wasn't a union guy that had the problem?
Maybe the guy that called me away wasn't happy because the union guys get better pay or benefits?
hoo boy! we've hired some new guys. I don't know if the pandemic made them weird or if they were always this odd. Remember Private Pyle from the movie Full Metal Jacket? that kinda odd
It's kind of simplistic to blame the stupid for the worlds problem when most of them are caused by the educated class. We now are turning out do many advanced degrees to people now feel entitled cause they got the paper. Wasn't trade people got rid of shop class, reall vital when so much of the worlds real work is done with simple tools. Now everyone needs the degree, this has created some brilliant people but also whole vast level of professional bullshitters. Self serving lying types, cant co.plete a simple sentence without telling contradicting lies and they are put in positions where they manage so much of the world. This country is being over run with them and now we supposed to feel sorry for their student debt. This is the reason for politics as we have it. We can create so many hot button issues it becomes so fragmented we cant get a bead on who is actually responsible. We have become so worried about our gun we have forgot what we are supposed to defend with it. We are being led by masters of deception. Now the issue is we dont have enough good worker bees,,, who's fault is that? Out of 200 yellow pages in our little phone book 22 of them are lawyers. Every commercial break 2 or 3 commercials from them, a couple more from doctors, always some genius waiting just to help you. There to promote your best interests. I dont blame politicians but who voted for them? Even when it doesnt make sense? We want it to be true so much we really dont care if it is. Saw an interview with avg guy, they ask, do you believe it's true? Guy comes right out and says,,, I know it's not true but I dont care, he gonna vote for it anyway. This wasn't a poor illiterate drop out couldn't hold a job but a guy you might work with every day.
I hate to use the word truth as it's so abused but people willing to state the situation accurately dont stand a chance. We elect the woman comes out and says Hilary has baby burgers for breakfast. Now,,, that obviously worked for her but what does that say about 1/2 the voters. She not really the problem. We have become that willing to believe anything no matter how absurd.
We look at history and say, how could so many follow Hitler. The battle over guns says it all, it's not being led by liberals. That's not an endorsement by me, it's a simple observation. But it works it's way down the line to this worker shortage thing when we are looking to blame someone for the situation. They think this may ha e happened in early times, the labor simply left the big cities and walk off in to the jungle. Problem here is not many willing to endure any pain and cant do without, might not be able till there is real upheaval. All this inclusive,, try to get along is just delaying g it, keeps the same people in charge. Look how many live in fear over their credit ratings, cant make it without a card and someone right behind that preaching it. Think this pandemic put the world in a spin,, how about everyone maxing out the cards and quit sending the payments tsp. We got a national font buy gas day,,,, ha, should have a font pay cc for 6 months, combine that with car and ho.e loans and we would get somewhere.
WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION? I want to say that to all of the politicians in Washington.
I was lectured in almost those exact words as a child when I said I wanted to be operator like my Dad. Or the teachers would go off on a tirade about "truck drivers" not even knowing that is a different occupation than operator. When they humiliate a child in front of his peers for what he wants to do as a career,or for whatever reason, they are not helping him. It's just destructive. Well, now I make more money than they do.
The guidance dweeb forgot to mention the stress, politics, mind numbing work and many little dicks that seem to breed in modern offices.
Fact is not everyone is cutout to be a brain surgeon or for that matter a mechanic or a truck driver. Some have to go through the steps only to find out a particular job/lively hood isn't for them. Driving truck over the road is only for a few and not many stay with it. #1 Very hard on ones health-bad food and little exorcise. #2 Very hard to have any kind of life/family, rarely home on time for holidays, not around for the kids, usually ends up in divorce. #3 Most of the shippers/ receivers could care less about the driver all they want is their stuff. #4 I suppose it's a good job if a person likes getting lied to, dispatchers tend to be paid a flat plus incentive. Dispatchers will lie their *** off to a driver and promise the moon that they will make the next load a good one-very rarely happens. #5 A driver rarely sees the good side of a city, industrial areas, loading docks mainly the sleazy/and sometimes dangerous parts of towns/cities. #6 A driver gets sick on the road he has to handle it, no one there he/she knows to help other than 911. #7 Rate of pay-by the mile, few pay dock time. In some cases drivers can set up to 12 hrs and more waiting to bump the dock or bump the dock and they take their sweet time unloading because they have no room and use the trailer as a short term warehouse/freezer. Some companies pay dock time some don't. Loads are appointed load and unload times, even if things were out of drivers control he will go to the back of the line. E-log and out of route miles to deal with, some companies only pay map miles/city limits-not actual address so driver gets shorted x amount of miles. #8 Traffic/Winter driving. If some dink isn't trying to cut you off they are brake checking the truck. Chain up areas have become a risky place, trying to install chains with water and sand dripping down your neck then the next thing you know there's a spin-out headed for you. I could go on and on-But driving is a lonely tiresome job without much atta-boy's.
Reading all those reasons makes me feel really spoiled to be where I’m at versus over the road which is what I did before finding this job most of our stuff is just yard to yard and it’s all dedicated and home daily and we still have drivers who say it’s to hard and to much work
Reading the comments here there is one thing missing. Children are a product of their up bringing just are you were. Both the parents and the education system have a hand it this. I have turned one young bloke around who had dropped out of school without any qualification's and was going down a **** shute. 14 years later his income is in the top 3 in Australia and pays more in tax than his teachers earn and out of work is a dam good citizen. Other branch's off the same tree are happy to flip burgers at Macca's (McDonalds). If you can find the young people who have a hunger to get going with life and a spark in their guts and you turn that spark into a fire. Not my responsibility you say. Well if everybody does nothing they become a burden that everyone pays for.
Yep no one wants to do anything. But on the bright side I know a few people my age who are definitely go getters. I realized today I'm going on a week vacation next month and feel guilty that I'll be abandoning a few unfinished projects till I get back because there's no way I'll get it all done till.
Sadly there are fewer and fewer that will make the attempt t personal gratification of performing a job well and being at least praised for it while being paid for it. Has to be a breaking point and I dare say are past that breakover in working to get to the breaking point. Company I am working for has finally started seeing new hires/applicants, even has a 20y.o. just started going thru training on the machines we use expressly locally, once comfort zone expands some will be taken out to the clay piles for indoctrination on use of loaders and typical day in day out operations then get slipped the big one and sat into a dump truck as the one I am driving. Not many understand from Where stuff comes from, or How the materials on their Amazon or UPS delivery came to be nor do they want to know or be a part of that, only problem is if they do not become anything but consumers they will soon have nothing to consume or finances to purchase any consumables. I do agree, is a talent in driving, operating HE, welding, mechanic any trade that is out there. Slight nuances to every manner of technical function that generally are either taught by training and hands on with a skilled person or learned the hard way with scars to prove it.
Actually went to the yard this morning, in the rain, got the machine I regularly drive out and washed it. On MY time using company equipment. Not been able to get past the Super Truckers that wash their own machines DAILY to clear bugs, clay and lime dust off the dump truck so just waited for today. Normally drivers come in of a Sat to do just as I and get around those that try to wash the paint off theirs to no avail, rain holds only the less than die hard off. Cost me a hour of my time, not a big deal to me.
I hope you know I wasn't picking on drivers! I just was frustrated with people who didn't know the difference between a dozer and a truck!
Marginal Utility – an economic concept that reflects a personal level where working for another dollar is not, to that person, worth the effort. Everybody’s marginal utility is different. Another way to say it is that everybody’s hunger level for another dollar is different. Some people are happy to make a minimum wage and wish for no more, and others making the minimum wage, are so hungry for another dollar that they’ll work another, or two more jobs to get those additional dollars. Of course, those willing to work two or three jobs are often the ones who are first promoted or may be the ones to seek further education in an attempt to make more dollars.
The whole concept is complex to say the least, I live in the midwest, very rural area and I know many industries and people around the area personally within those industries, both on the employee and employer side of the things. Now I'm not sure where things went terribly wrong, but when a somewhat local huge name now global company hired 300 new workers this spring, but only 8 could pass the drug test, yes you read that right, only 8 out of the 300 passed, there is something terribly wrong in this country. Now the question remains is this, everyone knew up front, before they ever picked up an application, there was drug testing required in order to get the job, after those weeded out during the hiring process were reduced to only 300, and those 300 were told up to five times along the way, there was a pre hiring drug test and random drug testing, they still tried to slip through the cracks and actually showed up to be tested?? First this somewhat mystified me as to why they even attempt the test, then I was told by someone that I know personally who's in charge of hiring, the industry norm is only about 25 percent pass the first drug test to begin with, that stat also somewhat shocked me. Now I've complained for decades about drug testing for a class A CDL and the hundreds of drug tests I've had to take and also pay for since I'm self employed and also hire some help, but to this day nobody has ever failed a single test while working for or around me. So you have to excuse me if the latest news is not only shocking but beyond scary to me. Next step is fast food, not going to mention which one, but everyone knows it, a local company owns a series of them, again I know the person in charge of hiring, and as of two weeks ago, everyone single person in five stores failed their random drug test and had to be fired, all while four new stores are under construction and nobody can pass a drug test to even get hired, not even for the manager positions.................of the stores within that chain, most all have reduced hours open due to not enough drug free workers to keep enough staff on to be able to keep the stores open enough hours. Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but when nobody can pass a drug test, whether it be for an assembly line worker, store manager or burger flipper, I'm not thinking wages, benefits or working conditions are the major issue at hand.
Several applicants of note in the local trucking companies failed screens, one applied to my employer then declined to take a screen where walked away. Have heard the garbage "if you drink this or eat that will 'Flush' your system and can pass the screens" and is absolute nonsense. Two drivers for a company south of here failed screens, were given a second chance where one passed the other failed miserably, then the one pass got hit with a random and failed again, too stupid for words to describe. They KNOW are going to be more actively screened, KNOW if they use will be caught and then lose a decent money earning job. That Same money that buys the dope are using. The responses were 'Well it is Legal for Medical Use' but fail to connect the dots that use is no less than drinking and driving, states right in the Medical Use category warnings, Use of this product can impair cognitive abilities, do NOT Drive under the influence. Sis In Law in Co pulled that same rationale, lost her license until could pass a screen, and STILL smokes a doobie nearly everyday then waddles out to her car. Is only going to get worse, sorry to say.
Its not just weed that fails a lot of them seeking much higher pay than a burger flipper, the higher the pay the harder the drugs it seems is what one who's in charge of hiring told me a couple weeks ago. I'm not thinking legalizing drugs is the answer, its also given me a long pause as to where to buy food from and who to do business with. Quite a few companies are talking about dropping drug testing altogether in order to keep the doors open?? Yes wages in my area have sky rocketed, not due to anything but the lack of ability to pass a drug test, not lack of people to do the work, so in essence 75 percent plus can't pass a drug test and of those 25 percent that can, a percentage won't pass a random later down the road. I know that last round of hiring one company did, they screened over 3000 applicants and was told of those that they hired, none passed the drug test, so out of 3000, the percent was zero to hire. I wonder if wages were 10 times what they are today and benefits exceeded the pay could anyone pass the drug test to get and KEEP the job?? The question I have is this, what did everyone do while on quarantine, smoke pot, snort coke or shoot heroin, on top of the daily meth fix, then wash it down with some high dollar booze or cheap rubbing alcohol depending on your social status??
Sis in law is hr manager at a company here in Jackson and said they are no longer testing for mj I heard several years ago from a lady that was a chemical engineer for drugs tests that several large corporations were doing away with testing for it as they were losing to many higher ups
A large fleet in my area recently stopped testing for MJ (non-DOT positions) to try and reduce turn-over in the wash-bay, dock and admin positions.
So far I haven't heard of any response from the insurance industry on the matter. The testing was driven as much or more from their stand point rather than any outrage by the general public. I do believe that making it legal without thinking through all potential ramifications was a big mistake. Someone high getting into a wreck and who pays? What if someone gets in a wreck and it isn't their fault but they get tested and fail? A bad test result and does it have to be reported to the insurance company? What if someone tests positive last month and gets into an accident this month? Will there be different provisions depending on the type of drug? I can go on but you get the idea.
Skilled has a new meaning today. Just like Democrat does
That's political-not allowed here. HeavyEquipmentForums
Over the last few years, I've come full circle on the whole drug testing issue, first I hated it, it was beyond expensive for me, took a lot of time I considered as wasted with no gain or benefit to me what so ever and a complete hassle on the business side to say the least. Today, after the 10's of thousands spent on testing over the years, I'm beginning to think maybe its money well spent. I have a very low view of those that do drugs, sit around and drink themselves to death, neither are ways to improve oneself in any way, myself I never had the time or money to do either, let alone the interest. So today I hold a very dim view of those that can't keep or get a job based on the inability to pass a drug/alcohol test. So when I pull up at a fast food place, or go into a restaurant to eat, or any place to buy anything, I personally would like to know the people I'm dealing with at least have the decency and self worth to think the same, along with the company or establishment they represent. Locally I know the places talking about dropping drug testing as a requirement, higher ups with those companies have told me personally they are considering it. I've told them all, IF they do that, they are done doing business with me forever and its not a threat, but rather a promise and I told them why, which brought around a discussion about how to keep their doors open, so I asked them this simple question, Of those you do business with, what percentage can't pass a drug test? now how many of those that come through the doors would feel ok with whoever they meet at your business knowing they can't pass a drug test, you need to weigh how many would as upset as me, to those that don't care and do the math as to how much each group spends in your business. Those that asked got really quiet and stated they'd never given that a thought, as of yet those that asked have not withdrawn drug testing as a requirement. I'm sure this issue has far different reactions depending on where your located and what business your involved in. Many blame the insurance companies, I'm not so sure they should take the blame as much as attorney's who encourage lawsuits, those are the one's who determine how and why things are done, insurance companies just react to those lawsuits more so than being proactive ahead of time. Just a different perspective and my two cents.
I totally agree. Well written. I’ll add a local phenomenon I experience. Many locals complain about out-of-state people or H1b workers taking their jobs. It’s because the locals can’t or won’t pass a wiz quiz. Our fuel terminal in Bethel had only one local employee. The balance worked two week rotations and resided elsewhere. It added a lot of extra direct expense to the bottom line with lodging and airfare.
The last thing the the public needs-are CDL drivers under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Yes CDL drivers especially need to be tested.
Ill pass any drug test thrown my way. The only thing they will find is s high percentage of ibuprofen
Last time I was sent for a test, I told I wanted the good stuff.
I'm not arguing for drug use. I have never used illegal drugs, rarely drink, and don't have drug or alcohol issues in my family. I also have a major problem with the pro-drug attitude that our society embraces. Have a headache? Take a pill. Feeling tired? Drink coffee. Kid can't concentrate in school? Ritalin. Depressed? We have a pill for that. Having said that, I'd like to present another perspective. Not to convince you to change your mind, but to at least open it to think about other ideas. The majority of people in the US look upon drug use and abuse as a moral failing. People use drugs because they are weak, self-centered, and lazy. You yourself said "the people I'm dealing with at least have the decency and self worth to think the same." But if you really get to know an addict, most of them have one commonality. They all faced incredible histories of abuse. Physical abuse, mental abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse by adults. We're not talking strict parents here. We're talking powerless children being subjected to what would be described in adults as torture. Once you get past the defenses, and protective walls, most addicts will related to experiences that will horrify anyone with any sense of compassion. Let me relate a story. A friend who is a physician at Boston Childrens' Hospital volunteered to be the medical staffer on a mobile van that provided outreach for youthful and teenaged homeless kids and run aways. After the first night, my friend commented to his driver that it was sad that so many lazy, irresponsible kids were not willing to live within the constraints of their childhood homes, schools and neighborhoods, and instead, preferred to party it up on the streets. The astonished driver pulled the van to the curb, and proceeded to explain reality to the doctor, who had no idea what was really going on. "99% of those kids are LGBT, who when they were found out by parents, their church, or their schools, were attacked, abused, and thrown out of their houses. Think about it. How do you survive on the cold streets when you're a kid, lack money, education, maturity and experience? You sell drugs, or sell your body, and do things to survive that are horrific. These young people use drugs to self-medicate, to get through days that would cause most of us to kill ourselves. These kids aren't run aways. They're throw aways. Addicts use drugs to self-medicate away the pain of rejection, isolation, and being unwanted. So what do we do when we find them? We exacerbate the problem by jailing them and isolating them further. We give them a criminal record that makes it almost impossible to find decent work. Without decent work, they can't find decent housing, food, medical care. They can't fit into any decent social system, and are relegated to the street / drug world that preyed on them in the first place. Think about how you would feel and then cope if you were stuck on the streets as a young teen with no money, no ability to continue education, to work, or to even get a regular meal? Scientists have done studies, and have found that being abused psychologically and mentally is as destructive as being physically assaulted. If I walk up to you, and punch you in the face, I will be arrested and jailed. If I mentally abuse you, nothing happens. I can get away with any and all of it. Yet research shows that my abuse does far more damage than if I hit you with a bat. Think back to the time when you were physically hurt. You can't relive the experience of physical pain. You know that the punch, or the burn, or the broken bone was painful, but it's like watching it on a movie screen. It's just a memory. Think back now to the most humiliating, fear-filled, emotionally painful experience. For most of us, we'll have an instantaneous flashback as if it's happening for real once again. Physical pain is momentary, but the humiliation, fear and powerlessness associated with mental abuse never gets weaker. Back when the Vietnam War was winding down, and plans were in the works to repatriate returning soldiers to civilized society, it was discovered that a significant number of vets were addicted to heroin. The thought that tens of thousands of drug addicts with military and combat skills would be loosed on society with an addiction to serious narcotics, petrified our leaders. So they made efforts to drug test returning soldiers, and try to get them help. After all, heroin is notoriously difficult to kick. What they discovered is that when these kids were removed from the dangerous, stress-filled environment of war, most of them stopped taking drugs when they returned to the US. They had no more need to self medicate so they could forget the horrors that surrounded them every day. The problem was no longer a problem. I'm not saying that we should enable drug addicts. I am saying that the war on drugs has been an abysmal failure. Even if we measure this war on the availability of narcotics, everyone would agree that you can buy any and all illegal substances in every town, county and city in our country. Further, not only can few of us understand what an addict is going through, we're not doing anything to really fix the problem. We're just mentally masturbating ourselves into feeling like we're doing somehting. Just as most of us would not discriminate against someone with a physical disability as long as they were capable of doing the job, we should reconsider our aversion to someone who is in serious psychological pain. I'm not saying that we should tolerate drug use, or let drugged people operate heavy equipment. I am saying that what we're doing now is not working, and perhaps we should try something different. And maybe we should stop, and ask what if that addict was one of us. One of our kids. Our parents. Our siblings. Maybe we'd want to stifle the judgement, the condemnation, and the hate, and maybe try to put ourselves in their shoes. I highly recommend the book by Johann Hari, called Chasing the Scream. It talks about the horribly racist underpinnings of the original war on drugs, and how this war is doing the exact opposite of helping the situation when it comes to our addiction problem.
Lets take a known example from my area, the richest kids in the entire area, who grew up with a gold spoon in their mouths, were never told no by their parents, had every single luxury most would never dream of ever affording as adults, they had as kids and teenagers. Some know the type of parents they had, I think many would call them the "newer" style of parents, no spanking, no discipline, only time outs if that, just live and enjoy life and they'll grow out of that phase type of thinking. Nobody at school was allowed to do anything about it either or the parents would scream abuse, if police were called or involved, the parents would lawyer up and make the issue go away quietly, you know the new style of parenting that many embrace today, more so idolize. Well after being involved in about everything known to mankind, when mommy and daddy didn't hand over what they wanted, drug dealing and crime was the answer to help get the newest and best diesel pickups, sports cars, exotic trips to faraway places and still live like kings, all while teens or barely out of school, yes passport in hand, it is possible to take exotic trips while being dismissed from high school to vacation on a beach somewhere else. Well most know where this is going, so once the parents finally do throw up their hands, basically 20 years too late and all of their own making, their kids were in jail, for using [addicts] and also manufacturing and distributing narcotics, a long rap sheet of crime from theft to armed robbery, attempted murder, rape and and don't forget the abortions the daughter had starting when she was 10, [by having sex with teens because she was bored and wanted to teach her parents a lesson] and are now their all spending what's left of their spoiled worthless lives behind bars. [Guess the drugs and alcohol was used to take the pain away of not getting the new 250k sports car this week] Now for the entire area, this was a huge relief and also most viewed it as a way for some spoiled worthless kids to finally learn the lesson of the word "no" and oh yea, you can now 1, do what your told when your told, 2 learn your not special and there are consequences for everything in life, 3 if you make a mistake, you can learn to pay for your mistake, 4 keep your hands to yourself, 5 your life is in your own hands and you get out of it what you yourself make of it, 6 treat others the way you'd like to be treated, 7 life isn't fair or equal to anyone, 8 certain social norms will be followed at all times, 9 live within your means, 10 when you step outside those bounds you will pay for it one way or another, 11 say please and thank you, 12 your not entitled to anything you didn't earn or work for, 13 your not special and I'm sure there are a host of others I've forgotten but its too bad nobody told them this before they wound up doing hard time behind bars for decades, not really sure anyone where they are at will do as good of job as their parents should have, but you know after all its only a phase they are going through. Now for the parents, who pretty much wound up broke due to legal fee's and are now working a meager job in a modest home, [after losing it all] I guess parenting didn't work out too well, but the upside is this, they at least now know where their kids are, and every time they go to visit, they know they'll be there and can see them. I'm sure your probably right, there are always a percentage of people who get a raw deal growing up, and the last I looked and knew about, there are also churches and places to go for help for those same people. Now if you choose to go down the hardship road of whoa and use that as an excuse, you can also take note there are far more who had it far worse and still turned out just fine, those that lost a parent or both parents due to death or accidents, those from homes of abuse that turned out fine, from homes of alcoholics, drug addicts, mental problems, health problems and a host of other issues and those all turned out fine, fact is, there is no such thing as a perfect up bringing in a perfect home, it doesn't exist, never has, parents as well as kids learn by doing and trial and error. Can anyone honestly say they never made a mistake, how about as parents?? how about as kids growing up?? as a spouse, community member, neighbor, everyone makes mistakes, the real issue comes by being able to determine yourself what mistake you made and try not to keep making the same ones over and over again. You can give any excuse you want for anything, but in the end that's what it is, an excuse to do the wrong thing. I've known plenty of addicts, maybe hundreds over the years, the single thing I've learned is this, you can't change anything in life until your ready to do just that, change your life, nobody can force you or do it for you, you have to want to do it yourself, that goes for alcoholics, drug addicts, and about any sort of abuse, its not till they hit rock bottom and have no lower to go and really want to change, can they then get the help they need, anything short of that, those around them are only enabling the addict and nothing more. I have alcoholics in my own family, I swore I'd never turn out like that ever no matter what, I've got drug addicts within my family, its not the life for me, I have far better things to do and made the choice at a young age I wanted no part of that life, same goes for marital problems, abusive behavior and a host of other problems, I don't need to go out in public to see any of them, I'm related to enough the way it is, I grew up around it all, yet, here I am today. By the way, most of the rest, have made a habit of blaming others for so long, their experts on making excuses for their behavior and in the end, that's what it is, an excuse and nothing more. The vast amount of drug addicts around that I know, didn't wind up out on the streets, they started out hanging out with the wrong crowd, started out being rebellious kids, living life according to their own terms, and once started down that road, chose to stay on that road and have nobody to blame but themselves, but would rather blame everyone else instead. A few did change, most didn't, of those that didn't are the ones today screaming the need to do away with drug testing for a job, those that did change, want drug testing in order to help them stay clean and to prove to everyone else they are doing just that, for those that never did drugs, drug testing is a non issue, more of a hassle and some more BS to contend with because others chose the illegal road filled with excuses, so look at it any way you'd like.
Two very good examples of the same coin.
I was that rebellious **** in HS, ran with the other rebellious Sh!ts, entered military service and had the rebel suppressed, learned was nobody going to aid me but my own self and did change. Military today is not what it was forty years ago, kinder gentler, more touchy feely than those days of a DI in your face explaining how your Ass was HIS and HIS alone if did not work harder to measure up. Do not see how it can change for the better currently as schools are teaching same and none of the hands off do not yell at the little miscreant sh!ts has ever really worked yet they continue the insanity of repeating that same basis expecting a different response. Burger joints and restaurants cannot find help in our little slice of civilization, help wanted, mechanic wanted, driver wanted, permanent signage at nearly every business, offering unheard of wages some with sign on bonus packages that go unapplied for as requires attention to clientele, details, nobody going to diagnose for you and no one going to explain how to repair or serve or cook or operate the functions. Fight for each yard of distance or fail and they will not try to manage that. Sis In Law in CO is a retired teacher, she instructed on that touchy feely no penalty basis where now sees less than a third of her past class students are either working or gaining value as active citizens, blames it on everyone/everything else and not her and associates style of teaching. Will not soon change for the better until the economy collapses fully then it will be all for one and one for all in a free for all fight to survive.
Oh whoa is me, the sky is falling, civilization is about to end as we know it, the government is all at fault, teachers and lawyers are all to blame and on and on. The common refrain when I was in the service was that a bitching sailor was a happy sailor. By that meme, we must be the happiest country in the world. Instead of just bitching, maybe do something instead.
I think there is a lot of truth to that. You know how as kids grow up, some go down one path, and some the opposite? I think about kids I grew up with who went down the wrong road. I could just have easily gone down that road if I had not had a good family. My parents were involved in my life. Not to mention an extended family of aunts and uncles in the neighborhood. If I didn't have my family looking out of me, maybe I would have gotten caught up in something bad, too. The other thing is that I grew up before things like OxyContin and that crap were so available.
Accountability is the word that no one wants to hear and except. This is a matter of choices and you choose your own misery or your success. I grew up poor and hung around some bad characters. In my younger years I tried anything but working for the things I wanted. Then the day came that I had to make a choice. Sit around and bitch about the things I don't have. And blame others for my poor choices. Or change my behavior and work for the things I wanted. It wasn't a easy road and it was humbling to except responsibility for my short comings. But I made the choice to stop ***** around and push through to get what I wanted. It's all about choices and nothing more. Excepting responsibility for those choices and choosing to do something about is part of the recipe for success. Sitting around and looking for reasons to justify your bad choices is a sure fire way to fail. I'm not a victim of circumstance. I succeed despite of my circumstances. And I thank the Lord for my failures and successes. And without God I couldn't have peace for the things that I don't have. This is the day that the Lord has made and I will rejoice in it.
A great responsibility teacher is working around animals. I grew up on a dairy in the 60's-milking 110 head with vacuum buckets-no pipe line. In a nine stall milk parlor, every cow had a name and I knew how much grain each one got. Carry each stainless bucket to dump in tank, took four hours every morning and every night. Plus putting out hay and silage in winter and any doctoring any cow needs. Plus feeding all the heifers'. chickens and any other critters. The animal comes first you eat last-that's the way that life is. Then during what's left of the day you performed all the other chores. It taught responsibility at a young age.
You got me there, only interest I have in seeing a cow is dead on bread.
My Father got out of cows when I was a tiny sp[rout, I can just remember it yet. I cant say I wished for them back. We had on farm sales of potatoes that somehow managed to work itself in to a year around scheme. Crap is never ending.
My flight instructor and dear friend was a medic in Viet Nam. His service knew of the tremendous number of guys hooked on heroin, and they made their own unofficial detox centers. They worked with these guys to get them clean BEFORE they shipped stateside. He said it was one of the most worthwhile things he did over there.
It's hard to find the good apples mixed in with the bad ones. I've got at least half a dozen that I've helped straighten out there lives. I've also got a couple bushel full of the ones that would get on track and as soon as they were getting on there feet they'd fall right back in to the same crap. Had one guy that I tried at least 6 times until I finally had to wash my hands. Count less items stolen, picking them up every mourning to get them to work. Helping out with bills from time to time. If they don't want to better them selves, there's no amount of help you can give.
Emmett, the military has for a very long time dosed up service personnel on active service with Speed. They started doing it during WW II and every campaign since. Just saying.
Work force placement companies are dying here, cannot get applicants either for even permanent positions. Have been explained the youth now feel they should only work a short time, quit then draw UI until can't then go back to work elsewhere for another short term. Sad state of affairs as we just get older.
We've been trying without any luck to find people who are willing to work. Site work is plentiful at the moment but how can you perform the work on time and on budget when you need a 6 man crew and only have 2?
I deal with two tire dealers-one has had three people quit in the last two weeks the other is on a constant turn over. When either one sends a newbie to the shop more than likely I have to stop what I'm doing and watch them closely. I don't know the names of 70% of our drivers, here today gone tomorrow. Equipment repair costs have climbed every month. Gayle has been gone for 6 months since he retired and I haven't bothered to try and replace him-more trouble than it's worth at this point.
Just remember the system isn’t broken, it’s by design
id like to add to this fun story when I was 18 I went and applied to the local grading company to be a laborer for 10 an hour they pulled my chain for 6 months and no job was given. they actually did that to a lot of people so leaves a bad feeling recently they were trying to find bout 50-100 people to fill all sorts of positions. so who would yall blame for their shortages them for playing with people for months over the last couple of years and that spread around that they would just hire someone if they knew someone so people stopped apply or the people for getting tired of it and going another place where everywhere in town offers 12 but they still only offer 10 for general labor hell McDonald's is offering 15.
Ya, that was kind of my point. I dont blame some of them for saying screw u. Lots of places were yelling how great they were to work for till they hired on then yank the chain as soon as they got people, saw a owners wife come on to a floor, from her Mercedes while wearing heavy jewelry and "explain" how it would be a hardship surely put her in the poor house if they give up a dollar an hour. Same woman run for office next month telling everyone how much sghe was gonna do for the poor. Got a big ole help wanted sign on the front now and going to meetings splainin how its a hardship on her now.
There are many, many anecdotal stories of specific employers or employees that we can all retell, each with their own slant but that doesn't address the larger issue. There is a real labor shortage that is the result of a multitude of issues from the education system pushing all children into a college degree over the last 30 years to the gov't paying people to sit at home. It's a real problem for our entire Country that's going to take all of us as a society to fix.
Its a real mess starting with parents not making there kids to learn what can be gained by working then half of the kids DNA are wired not to ever want to see what working can do for them. Then when the ones that are on the fence about working or not get a crappy boss and that makes then go to the i hate work side of the fence on day one.
I have no problem with education, but with the way too many people at the high school level steer students away from the trades. This has been a problem from at least back in the 1960's, when I was there! I'm sure many here have heard me bitch about that for a long time! My older brother who has at least a masters degree and was in the education system himself complains about the same thing. I can not imagine what it would be like to be looking at a college loan of $30,000 plus dollars the day you graduate and get hired by some company that will expect you to move across the country two or three times over a few years. That assumes you managed to get a degree in something that actually is of value to a company!
Agreed-The unfortunate side or truth/reality is shifts in culture such as hard times is usually what it takes to cause said shift. I don't like the thought of rough times because it effects those who are doing their best. Getting everyone on board to fix it is like herding cats, but it would be nice if that happened.
I would like to know why it’s considered OK for others to sit at home and not have to work a job while I have to work a physical job with the additional insult of having a good chunk of pay taken away and given to these slugs with the justification of “butbutbut life is hard!” Or “employers aren’t nice enough!” because from my POV it’s really starting to look like near slavery with a few extra steps.
I fixed that for you KS. We are working two projects on a local private 8-12 grade private school where the tuition is $25,000 a year. A major university 4 year bachelors degree will run $20-40K or more, a year.
Well serves me right to go by a quick Google sear that showed this: https://educationdata.org/average-student-loan-debt-by-year
A privet college here in town {Whitman College} tuition is 53,420 a year ranked 79th in the 100 most expensive colleges.
i got lucky and went to college on a pal grant for a degree I don't use that much and then through high school for welding which was useful thinking about going back again
Well you can bet hard times are coming if this situation doesnt start getting sorted out Hunger is good when it makes a man work. It's going to he a culture shock for a large group of people when the grocery store wont have any food on the shelves cause the driver didn't deliver and the stock boy called in The level of accustomed luxury of being removed from physical labor to survive has never been matched in history a civilized society becomes to complacent and falls from within my generation will see some of the roughest times this 100 years may have to offer and it will be self inflicted
Hard times create strong men Strong men create good times Good times create weak men Weak men create hard times We are at #3 and the idiots have shoved the throttle to full speed ahead and broken it off. Day to day life doesn’t create a lot of stress for me but the thought of what is coming does.
If you have the opportunity to acquire any skills be it welding, machining, mechanic, electrical/electronic, HVAC, etc for cheaply get them. You will save yourself money in life, find better work opportunities (whether self employed or for an employer) have bargaining tools for leveraging pay, plus when it all collapses you will have skills to barter.
Stopped in at local grocery for some odds and ends as ended the day yesterday, a late twenties kid was at the counter where the CC he was trying to use was declined. He was mad as his parents had shut him off, had no job and no income living off ‘the folks’. Gal at the register said he would snag a CC from the parents to buy a load of junk food and then go hide from them where they shut the cards all off(she is friend of that family). Kid quit his last job as was not paying well enough!! He had just started with no skills at that job. Had a newer car until failed to keep up with payments and was repossessed, he did not understand how they could do that either. Is afoot with no income and no prospects.
CM1995, your comment about the education system is totally correct. The universities are very much to blame, firstly indoctrinating the teachers who then indoctrinated the children. Secondly it a money grab by the university managers so they can get their bonuses and to hell with society. Just follow the money.
Not sure I believe the stats anymore, but the last time I looked, there was 80,000 plus jobs available in my state and over 55,000 on unemployment?? Unemployment is at an all time high, same for job openings and this is somehow good?? Now on the subject of trade schools, I've got kids that went through the trade schools, there are two year programs and four year programs, each offering a degree. Anything involving using your hands and mind, are in high demand, you know actually do and think at the same time, problem solving is an almost unheard of term anymore. There is such a shortage in four year trade school programs, many have been required to just shut those programs down completely. High schools push the main stream four year colleges, trade schools are not even mentioned, many high schools know nothing about the trade schools or that they even exist. Now there's a joke floating around the internet where the comment is. My teacher told me if I didn't shape up, I'd end up being a garbage collector, but she never told me a garbage collector made more money per year than a she does. It was meant as a joke, but in all reality, its pretty close to the truth. One of my kids gave up and quit a teaching job to get a job as a worker in a nursing home, why, because of the pay, her pay was much higher than her teaching job was and none of the BS to put up with, if she puts in some overtime, it far exceeded the teaching salary and she can have unlimited overtime at time and a half, the benefits were also much better at the nursing home. My comment was, you went and got a four year degree from a major university and went in debt to get a great paying job, only to end up working in a nursing home you could have done right out of high school and this is progress. Her comment to me was, if anyone would have told me upfront most basic jobs are now higher pay than those needing four year degree's, I'd have never gone to college. I'm not sure how long this will last, partially due to covid, much to do with political BS, but yes right now certain area's are paying much higher wages and benefits than most any four year degree jobs can or will pay, mainly due to such shortages of available workers in those area's and how desperate they are needed.
Here in the US the problem is exacerbated through the US gov't backing the student loans which opened the flood gates to predatory lending IMO. The Universities are drunk on this free flowing money and the students end up with $100-120K worth of debt upon graduation. How in the hell is a young person supposed to be successful starting out with that kind of debt? Then on the other hand I am a firm believer in Buyer Beware however there are many people to blame in this mess that have profited off indebting high school graduates with flashy college presentations.
This is nothing new! In 1965-6 when I was in highschool the local county school system started a trade school system. They had building trades, auto mechanics, auto body, nursing and a bunch of other courses right down to beautician classes. Well this sounded great to me, NO! not the beautician classes!, the auto mechanic class or building trades. So I tried to sign up but was flat out told by the guidance counceler there were two problems. First these were three year courses and I only had two years befor I granduated and the kicker one was I was told I was too smart to take one of those types of classes! Ok I might agree that the level of the classes being offered might have been too basic but did this counceler pivot me over in the direction of the two State run Tech. colleges not that far away? No never even hinted that there was such a place. To be honest I was not even aware that there were colleges that taught subjects other than things like math, science or liturature type stuff.
Your pretty much on your own to research and figure out what tech college you want to go to and for what program, its always been that way. When I was in high school and asked about tech schools I was told, if you want to go that route, your on your own, we don't endorse them or acknowledge them in any way. So I had to ask the guidance counselor where he went to college, so he willingly told me and then asked, why did I want to go there. I told him no not really if they gave him a degree and seeing how he's completely worthless, I'd though I'd avoid that college completely. Now I admit, this comment may have been part of the reason he did nothing to help me, but looking back, I think the outcome of his help would have been just as worthless with or without the comment.
Randy what you told him is almost as bad as what I told the principal one day when I was leaving to go to work on co-op from votech. It started with a f and he didn't look to pleased I left and never heard another word about it then about a year later he knocked up a substatute teach... how about that for example setting.
Part of the problem is that the collage/ university degree is only used to weed out applicants for some jobs. 20 yrs ago, my wife worked in a company that was hiring sales staff, anyone without a BA. was never considered. Why do you need a degree to sell? Some of my parents friends and our friends work/worked in sales without degrees. How does a degree from a collage or university make a better sales person? To me, the degree just makes the HR persons job easier. Cam
The degree proves you can conform to stupidity and blend in with a hierarchy environment where your to be told what to do so you can be credited with success it is rather limited in its ability to make a person innovative or a critical thinker because those traits and skills dont comply with a curriculum of being told what is fact and what is not that you can only know what you have learned from a teacher or professor because they are masters of the subject of study Degrees breed entrenchment and nepotism of sorts like trust the formula and stick to it to solve the problem and my favorite is they have the same degree of study as I do so I am safe to hire them cause we will mesh well being taught the same way In reality diversity of experience and especially multi industry experience of applicable trades brought together at one group is far superior because it is not single minded or theory driven but it result of PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE driven So degree holders in large part will never want non degree holders in there immediate tier of work for a company as that separates them from the pack and makes them stand out with typically a 3rd to double the work experience for people under 40 Sorry I worked for a corporate outfit I was the only one in management that didn't have a degree my ideas were different than the rest and were also treated differently than the rest
No degree here either where eventually the degree types would ask my opinion(after hearing me state such as ‘not gonna work’ and giving me crap as “the peanut gallery” until it proved was not gonna work. Would hear from them after failures asking how I knew when they had all this math and theory figured out. Just looked them noting ‘been tried before where I remember those tries’ or similar. Mainly used common sense as that was forever lacking in the boot licker Enga’s trying to impress a demanding superior that decreed “make it work”. Classic fail was sludge lagoons where river mud that had been flocculated out with chemical binders was sent. Five ponds were abandoned early as the mud would settle out at point of delivery to a pond corner, explained to me it had to carry further out by design but always stopped too soon. Looked at supervisor explained the use of flocculant was still working as the mud water mix discharged to the pond where was always gonna settle too early, he wrote that down, had escaped the Enga’s considerations.
Stereotype much AZ?
I believe it is the type of degree and the organization granting it that matters in most situations. The liberal arts types and business degrees have to be seasoned on lots of on the job training. I've worked with plenty of them who couldn't dig a ditch. I would say that those with engineering degrees can be very useful even just out of college. The difference is that the engineering degree requires some mastery of a tangible end product. The liberal arts, business and things like history have few if any tangible products. The engineer designs a machine on paper which would be pretty hard to do without those pieces of knowledge. The liberal arts major does what, interprets what a novelist writes, maybe works with people to ensure their feelings aren't hurt or produces something pleasing to the eye or ear. A medical doctor has to know all the organs in a body and how to treat their problems. What good is a history degree? Just how is an English teacher going to influence my life in a way that I would pay for? How is a business degree going to assist me in keeping a fleet of equipment running? We have all kinds of colleges offering relatively meaningless degrees which are supposed to be a proclamation of competence. The problem I have witnessed manifests when that piece of paper doesn't list what those competencies are. I'm supposed to believe in the reputation of the college that the person is qualified to accomplish something. From my experience, a degree only says that this person stuck around long enough and paid enough money to show they can complete something. Judging from the current labor market, that might be far more qualifications than many just off the street.
you guys talked to your guidance counselor?
Mine locked his door when saw me coming!!!
The only guidance counselor when several of us went to school was this fellow below. It did all the talking, and you did the yelling.
Didn't you guys have a required class that the guidance counselor taught, if I recall it was mandatory to graduate high school, it had to be mandatory otherwise nobody would have even taken the class. Best example I know of, and this is absolutely true, the smartest kid in the whole high school, who went to an ivy league college, then later on taught at the same college for a career, could absolutely not master the ability to tie his shoes.........ever. He spent his whole 12 years in grade and high school stumbling over his shoe laces. 35 years after he graduated high school, I ran into his little sister in a store in town one day and the topic of her brother came up. The only thing I asked her about him was, did he ever learn to tie his shoes and she replied, absolutely not, he finally figured out if he wore slip on slippers, he'd never have to learn, so she handed me a photo of him, in front of hundreds of college kids teaching a class and she said, notice he's wearing bathroom slippers as he taught ivy league kids. The smartest kid to ever graduate from the local high school ever, and was not smart enough to tie his shoes......ever, nor ever apply his knowledge to anything in life except to teach others theory only, nothing practical or useful.
Guy I started at the nuke with was ex US Navy Nuke, was incessantly tying his shoes, watched me put on my work boots, tied and never came loose rest of day unless took them off/untied them. He tried to mimic my tie method, never managed, became a supervisor, still could not tie shoes as I retired, TWENTY YEARS of watching the moron tie his shoes WRONG and watched him stumble on them over and over and over. Educated well or 'Smart' does not make one Intelligent or skilled. Most of us earned our Skills levels.
LOL. I never did!
Quality not quantity is the problem on worker shortage, They think the quantity of how much they get paid is better than the quality of workers they work for/with. Mickey D's may hire $15 plus an hour but the quality of workers there is sure missing. I live as everyone knows in no mans land and nearest town is just that a town with a Mickey D's hiring $15 plus an hour, hospital in town is hiring for less for patient intake, told the wife take the hospital job and after 3 interviews one across the board of staff she works there and I don't smell her like french fries, Covid-19 is rampant and they take it serious, safe environment to work in for most part, steady hours and the quality of people is higher in who they are their life ambitions and other factors they aren't just drones punching a time card.
i think I talked to mine twice in 4 years then when I went to college I talked to one once because I needed one credit to finish and asked if one of my welding credits could do it beyond that
my buddy would just glue his together and call it day
Well it was a required thing where I went to school. Actually think this one was probably under worked as the average graduating class in our school was under 100 students so that does not seem to be that big a crowd for her to deal with once you filter out the ones who would not be going on to further education and those who already had their plans set.
I went to the college before i left high school. It can be done easy now but was not so regular then. They called the principle when i was at the intake office and the intake woman was laughing. Evide tly the principle had said,,, dont know why he want to go there, sure as hell dont wanna be here. Insaid,,, says a lot for him dont it?