Ok, no pics or anything I need some advice on a sticky situation. We arre on this huge job with roadwork, mass ex, utilities and just about everything else. at the entry there is a masonry wall with soten veneer on it and some colummns. Next the the entry colomn there is a pond that come cascading over a cmu- stone veneered wall. it is all very tricky and there is no engineered plan. i dug the footer for the front wall at 42" from grade which is the spec in my area. the bossman had me dig the footers for the cmu wall that will act as the backside of the pond with the water feature feature coming through a slot. i called him and he said dig the footers the same elevation as the front entry colomn footers and step it down 3 feet where the water will come through the wall. now, with never looking at the pond level or worrying about it we have had a major blowout. he came out looked it over said everuthing was fine and got the mason on it. 2' footer for an 11 foot high wall? built with cmu? i said the footer was way too small and they drilled it and added a foot to either side. now with no engineered plans he says the footers will not have 3 foot of cover on them inside the pond because they are not deep enough. he came out, looked at it, never checked elevations or anything. he does not have a site super so we basically do things the way they need to be done. now he wants me to rip out this footer and cmu wall and start over. he expects me to cover the costs of the mason to redo the work. i made a few mistakes here. worked without an engineered plan, did not verify grades on the level of the water in the pond.. which will only run 6 months a year. and failed to document that this was the right depth even though he said it was. this is a huge job. it will probabaly cost 8-10 k to fix this f-up and he will not take any responsiblity for this. i just recieved 200 k in work orders to continue work on the job. should i bite the bullet or tell this guy to pack sand? why is it my job to shoot pond elevations and verify footer depths on a design build job when i do not get paid for surveying or consulting. obviosly when i brought up the footer depth he realized something was up. it has not been well thought out and i am so busy running 3 digging crews and a cleanup/grading, landscape crew. He does not pay me, he is the owners rep. some advice please. thank you all.
It seems to me if he makes the Decision and it's not right he pays for the fix up, or tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine. Leroy
I started to type a big long answer, but honestly see if you can negotiate a shared cost type thing to resolve this, in todays market no one should risk losing a job over such a small pecentage of the total work. Although from this point forward make sure everything is spelled out and leave no grey areas. Best of luck to you!
i have a very good reputation about being honest with my customers and doing things right. without a engineered plan with a footer depth i am confident i could challenge this and take it to the owner and see what he thinks. thanks guys. but you are right. there is not alot of work. we are stacked up with 3 large foundations after this so i want to keep moving. it is just that i hate to give in when i know someone else is wrong p.s. he said no shared cost it is all on me. i told his guy to come up with a solution that works for everybody and that he should take some responsiblity here and that did not fly.
Colorado digger; Sorry about the ruff answer But i have been sharfted by the principle contractor for over 30 years ointhead
no worries, i am looking for a broad spectrum of opinion here, and that is why i decided to post this. i just need some help in making the the best decision monday.
You are screwed. You should of listed all bench marks and lay out work as a exclusion in your contract, you do have one?
there is no foundation or footer plan.
You are asking for a beating. How can you put this on anybody but yourself for doing this work with out a plan approved by the owner?
yeah i know, now i just have to handle it. i do not think i should have to cover it. but working without a engineered plan is b.s.. the owner's rep told me how deep and the elevations and that is what it is dug to , now he sees that it does not work..i don't want to eat this one.
How do you prove anything with out anything in writing? When it comes down to you or the owners rep taking the hit.............you know the answer.
i dunno, i would be happy to do the demo and dig the new footer but this guys wants me to pay for the masons work as well. i may have to draw the line. he came out while my crew was there said it looked perfect and set the masons loose. if it went to mediation without a foundation plan i don't think there would be a problem
what kind of demo do they want you to do?
I think he is talking about the just poured footings.
Unless you want to throw the customer away, I imagine you'll up end eating part of this just to keep a working relationship. I think most everybody does a little free stuff on every job. What I would do from now on is not to do anything free. Every little thing that you would normally just do, get a change order and charge them. Keep track - eventually you'll make your money back. At least those are my thoughts, there is too much money at stake.
Tough Clients Many contractors have A, B, C Clients. The A clients you do anything to keep them and they get the best price quotes The B clients get average pricing The C client, you would work for them again but only at premium prices (25%? higher) Then there are those clients that you want your competitor to take. I'd bet money that you have just started to see the problems of working for this guy. How fast is he paying you now? Keep a real short leash on him. No additional work done without a priced Change Order, signed by the owner. Invite him into a process like the Partnership Program developed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers program. This program accepts the fact that there will be problems on projects. It lays out how these problems will be resolve, IN ADVANCE of the problems! Even though it is desirable for this program BEFORE you start, you will need this in the future. It could well be worth $8,000.+ to go forward with the program in place. Dan
A couple of background questions: 1. Is the masonry crew a seperate contractor, not affiliated with you? IE Hired directly by the Site Supervisor/Owner? 2. What is the role of the Site Supervisor, specifically does he approve your pay requests before they are sent to the owner for payment? 3. Is this your first job for this customer? Do you know the owner? 4. Is the next set of work orders for $200K secured by a contract? From the information you have given, it looks like the Site Supervisor accepted your work by letting the masonry crew get started. If the masonry crew is a third party contractor hired by the Owner, then that is acceptance of your work. Now whether or not you dig your heals in is your decision, as no one here understands all the factors involved. I would suggest a meeting with the owner and SS and explain the situation. Offer to demo the footings and re-dig to grade on your dime but they will have to cover the masonry work. I would also think that the Masonry Crew should share in this screw up as well. If you are being held responsible for layout and "back-pocket" engineering then the Masonry Sub should be held responsible as well.
thanks guys, alot of good info here. i appreciate everyone's opinions and this is where this board is very useful, apart from all the s...t talking and picking of peoples work apart, this is where the forums helps. okay- yes the mason is a separate contracter. yes my new work orders are under contract. the owners rep. just hired a full time site super. so that is really helping. i do not believe in nit picking on small change orders because the owner is not responsible for the goof up. he is a very nice man, and pays his bills very quickly. i think these guys want to work together, obviously thses things are about making concessions. i said i would demo the footer, the cmu and re dig the footer for free. he wanted me to pay the masons fee as well. this is complicated and i am going on vacation for a few weeks so i am gonna sit back and listen to what everyhone has to say. we have a mile of road to subgrade and prep, a bunch of 48" cmp and about 3 miles if irrigation to dig . thanks again, what a tremondous help.
yeah, the owner's rep said he is taking it to the owner. who knows how he will spin it. but in our meeting he admitted some fault in the situation. sometimes it pays to sit back and wait for others to react before showing your hand.
Keep a journal. I'm an earthworks foreman and your daily journal will be a life saver for things like this. Just make a quick note of what you did that day, and keep track of any phone calls or conversations with other contractors/consultants. You may never need it for years, but that one time you do will make it all worth while. An example: Consulting company paid another contractor to screen top soil for a park job. They came and surveyed the piles and said there was enough screened loam. About 3/4 of the way through the job I figured we weren't going to have enough top soil so in a phone conversation with the consultant he said to build up our sub grade with raw loam and the dust some screened material over the remaining area as a "cap". A few months later the landscaping crew (another company) was in there and were complaing about the rocks, consulting company wanted us to come and hand pick out the rocks (at our cost) as we did not use the proper loam in the required areas. I pulled out my journal and pointed to the note about the phone coversation. They ended up paying us to remove the rocks. Same thing goes for when we are asked to do little cleanup jobs here and there (no real plans just "oh we wanna take those piles and then fill in this area"). I always go for a walk with the consultant and my journal. I'll write down what they want done, draw a rough picture and then read it back to them and show them the picture to make sure we both are talking about the same thing. Then I have a record of what they said they wanted, plus I have verified that I understand what they were wanting.
i am just an operator, but i take notes, pictures, and ask questions.
Make sure from now on the owners super signs off on everything. In fact when you finish this job, bury the guy that okayed it.