I'm doing some tread kicking in looking to the future regarding the purchase of a larger sized excavator. We're a small civil engineering/construction company doing mostly water and wastewater work. Current equipment fleet is limited to full sized backhoes and mini-excavator. In my mind's eye, i'm leaning toward a future purchase (someday if the $$ can ever be saved up!!) of something in the Cat 320 class. The following questions immediately come to mind: 1. Thoughts and experiences by owners or operators of the cat 320? 2. Preferences of other makes on similar class/size? 3. Thoughts on used machines? Expected maintenance issues on machines 2000-3000hrs? Overall expected machine lifetime? 4. Given above hours, i'm guessing i'll need to spend approx. $100K. Reasonable? 5. Thoughts on max bucket width for such a machine? Primary duty will be pipe work excavation to depths in softer material up to 20' deep. Service for primary makes (cat, komatsu,case, kobelco, etc.) is readily available in my area. thanks!
:my2c For what it is worth. I have had or run a 315Cl,320Cl, 325Cl, 321ClcR and a 325Dl. The 320 is a good size hoe for the work you are describing. It has good balance and power for utility work. I have a buddy of mine that does primarily utility work and has several 320's. Using his experience he has had some issues with his 320's relating to the fuel system and hydraulics- some minor pump problems. He has 2 kobelco's and has had great service out of them. He has a new PC200 that has had electrical issues. We put 2000+ hours on our 315 and we never turned a bolt on it and traded it in on a D6N because our needs changed. We have 800+ hours on our 325Dl and (knock on wood) we have not had any problems other than a hydraulic test port nipple leak. Our 321Clcr has had some hyraulic problems but it was due to the quick couple installed by the dealership. I think that buying a used machine in the 2k-3k hour range would be fine - just do your inspection and analyze the oil reports. You should expect to have to replace/repair minor items - maybe batteries, alternator, hyraulic leaks, etc. I would say $100k-$120k should be able to get you a good used machine in this size class. There are deals out there. Judging from my experience with our 321, the max. size bucket I would put on there would be a 42"-48" bucket. The 48" is really too much but you can run it. If a quick coupler fits your operation then see if there is a used machine that has one. There is not much price difference on the used market between machines that have one and ones that don't. But you sure pay for a new coupler. Hope this helps- cheers.:drinkup
If your routinely digging to 20' you may want to go up a size. You about at the limit of a 200 size machine. If you seldom go that deep you could rent or dig yourself down. However if spend time at that depth I would get more machine. Also bailing material at that depth would be more productive with a bigger machine as well.
KSSS- good point. I expect that 20' depth would be more the exception than the rule. I would say 10'-15' would be the more common higher range for us.
200 sized hoes lose their productivity on excavations much more than 15' deep. you just don't have any reach. don't get hung up on cat stuff...price and try out the others, deere, hitachi, case, hyundai, kobelco....all great machines, and will save yourself a pile of money doing it.
Cat all the way. Nobody can touch them in Excavators, not even close. Dont care what anyone says.
321C, fantastic machine. The company I work for got two 320Cs and one 321C and we found that the 321C can actually outperform the 320Cs in a lot of situations. It is one of the best machines I think they've purchased in many years.
It's no secret I am a Cat guy but when it comes to hoes there are other machines out there that are just as good. Komatsu and Kobelco both make good hoes - the question is their reliability and long term operational costs. The 321C is a great machine. I have a quick coupler and a hydraulic thumb combined with the zero swing and it is a very good clearing grubbing machine. I have been taking first shift on it they last few days cutting out basements for town homes and it is a very nice machine to run. Zero swing machines are an excellent choice for in town utility work - you can work in one lane of traffic and spin around.
having ran everything but a halla, o&k, liebherr, and a terex, i can say personally.........that cat has nothing over on the rest, in fact on the 3 day "try and buys" we've performed, the 320 cat IMO was a real pooch along side a 210 kobelco, or 200 hitachi. cat does have it over on it's competition on initial higher purchase price. if you take the cost of your money "difference in purchase price" over a 10k hr operating life, dif in repairs, dif in resale value...we've found out that cat isn't in the picture for us dollar wise.
I can totally see the life cycle vs purchase price comparison. I will probably still buy cat hoes because my fleet is mostly cat and the dealership really takes care of me in regards to warranty issues. I have a real good relationship with them and there is value in a dealership backing you up. Just my .02
cat does have an excellent track record locally as far as customer service, parts availability, etc. is concerned. so do our local hyundai ,deere, kobelco, hitachi dealers. downtime is definitely a cost avoided if at all possible. we just haven't had that problem with the other machines we have owned. that apparently just isn't the case in other parts of the US.
go hyundai
I am a Cat guy all the way, but we have a 200 Kobelco that is a beast. I installed 8" sewer mains 19' deep with it in hardpan and it had no problem digging. I had to bench myself down lower to be able to dig and drag the box.
Only if you have great mechanical skills.
Only if like overpaying for a sub-par performing machine. You could get the matching belt buckle, boots and hat though. You would be the best fashion coordinated operator on the job!! ointhead I can understand if you have a fleet of Cat equipment and get top notch service from the dealer. I have talked with a ton of operators and fleet managers and found that not all Cat dealers give the type of service that is worth paying an extra 10-20% more for a machine. I guess my point here is this.....don't be fooled that Cat always has the end all - be all solutions for your equipment needs. There are a lot of other makers of excavators out there that perform better and can be bought at a much better price. To go along with that point there are other dealers out there that will bend over backwards to get your business and won't give you the "take it or leave it" attitude that Cat dealers have been known for. Just :my2c
This is true; if you are the type to buy equipment, use it for 2-3k hours and turn around and sell it, then going with a cheaper machine maybe the way to go because longevity isn't really a prime selling point any more. By the time things start to break down, it's alredy long gone. But to a contractor who is interested in getting maximum life out of a machine, I think cat is the way to go.
we run excavators 8-10k hrs...we have had zero problems with the "other iron".....other than normal maintenance, wear and tear....when you weigh in the huge dif in initial purchase price, the cost of that money difference, up front, the cost of that difference in money during the course of your loan if you finance....as i said, we've had no major breakdowns with the "other iron"....at 8-10k hrs., cat equipment just doesn't pencil out. for our operation anyway
We havnt had to touch anything on ours except fluid and filter changes :beatsme we are pretty tough on equipment too, a lot of rock around here.
ok, ok even if you don't care, I have to say... Yes cat all the way for alot of machines. especially dozers. I run a 330CL and I love it.:notworthy But Hitachi(or deere now) would be the only other thing I would consider. I would say nobody can touch them with dozers. I worked on a project with a 5130...from the mechanics, a piece of ****. Notice that they dont make it anymore.
I think Dayexco looks at this from a business point of view. He's right -that is the only way to do it, otherwise, your costs may overwhelm you and your nice hoe won't quite look so nice as it's on its way to the auction. With any equipment purchase, I too look at the big picture. Features for my application, Reliability and with that, Parts availability and dealer support financing and warrantee, and probably most importantly, operating cost - fuel, oil, filter costs, use of standardized parts, Probably the last thing I look at is resale value. I have a hard time to figure out why anyone would want to pay (and finance!) money up front to only be recovered in part at resale time. To further the point, a machine that uses 10% less fuel over its lifetime to do the same work is worth way more to the bottom line than a machine that gets 10-15% more resale value 5 years down the road. I work in forestry. I have the same discussion about specing logging tractors. I prefer an 450 hp engine and Allison automatic. Most others prefer 550-600 hp engines, and 18 speeds. They say you gotta buy big so you can sell it at the end. I say, buy smart, enjoy the fuel savings, repair savings and operator training savings that the 450/Allison provides, and sell the truck for 20% less in 5 years - you would still be money ahead. I'm in this sport to make as much money as I can, so all spending gets analyzed like this. John
Wow- 10-20% more for Cat? Pricing must be all across the board in different areas of the country. Every time I am considering purchasing a new machine I shop around. I have found that in my neck of the woods Cat is very competative with most brands ( Deere, Hitachi, Komatsu, Kobelco). Here no one can beat Cat's parts and service although Komatsu is close. Sometimes a $10 part can render a $200k machine useless. If it takes 5 days to get this part shipped in compared to 24hrs - it doesn't take many break downs to make up the intial price difference. Take for instance- if your hoe is the main production machine loading 2 artics. If the hoe goes down, you not only have a hoe down but 2 artics, a dozer and a roller sitting. That's 5 pieces of equipment and 5 operators that you have to find something for them to do while you are waiting on parts. The actual and opportunity costs can skyrocket in this situation. But it does boil down to a business decision and there are as many differing ideas on how to run a business as there are preferences in machines. In the end you just have to chose which one is right for your business.:my2c
Sounds like pricing for Cat around the nations is different. Around here, Cat is within 5% of anyone else, including Deere, and the service is 10 times better. A no brainer for us to run Cat if the machine specs. correctly. We're currently shopping for a 3,000 ROC skid steer which Cat doesn't produce, would love to buy Cat again, but they don't make anything that large.
Around here the Kobelco is likely neck and neck with Cat if not more. The big boys started running them in the late 90's and have stuck with them through trade cycles and are working down the food chain. The Deere/Hitachi are popular too. We have rented Kobelcos for land clearing and have been good but used a 312 from Cat rental last summer and it was a really nice machine. It's funny, it always ends up in a Cat rules/Cat sucks type debate. The downtime is a big deal but if you get a machine that was taken care of and continue taking care of it, the paint color souldn't matter.
thanks guys for follow ups- any information is always helpful. Dare i hijack my own thread and start a ford vs chevrolet vs dodge discussion? PS- To Dayexco's point, i buy equipment trader from time to time down here and note a savings in cost on equivalent komatsu/kobelco machines vs cat. Tough to get a true comparison on the used stuff, but i do get a vibe that cat machines are a little higher in price (at least in that mag.) Are they better used machines? Hard to say, as i haven't saved up enough nickels to buy yet.....
trackhoes i just bought my 3ed. cat el200b. these are getting old now but have always been a great machine they are a 320 but with out the better can and other items. over the years my hobby was to buy ,use on my farm,and then to sell hoes. time after time when i checked other hoes our for the hrs. showing the cat units had less wear over al thany others. i know that there are alot of very good machines out there but this is what i say.i would also say a cat hoe would be easier to resell. thanks jim:usa
I work with a lot of deere machines and the new D series ex's are hard to beat I especially like deere control monitor it lets you change pump flow settings at the touch of a button This is very useful when switching attachments from hammers and shears to thumbs and buckets. If you have several employees running this machine to monitor will tell you how many minutes he worked at what % throttle, % idle, max pressures, fuel consumption at timed intervals, etc very useful when you are looking for production and your operator says he's been digging as hard as he can for days.
Yellow Iron Fever I bought several Cat 320's used (from dealer rental fleet), for my outfit in California, some of those got sent up to western Wyoming. They were great machines and we had very little trouble with them. Our yellow iron was mainly all Cat, and we received excellent service and parts from Quinn and Wyoming Machinery. We had a couple of older Deere machines as well, powerful, but the electronics weren't good, and parts were tough as they were out of production (892's). The Deere service manuals for those were poor, and my techs were probably better at working on these machines than anybody over to the Deere hut. I think cm1995 pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Cat's, but dayexco, Deere John, & farm boy have some valid points too. Cat in some areas has had a history of ignoring smaller equipment owners, mainly farmers and ranchers. Wyoming Machinery was guilty of this for years & years. They just loved big outfits tho. But that attitude has changed I believe. Cat can get down and dirty with pricing, but you got to play real hard to get. Otherwise, resale value on Cats in most areas beats anything else hands down. Even though the Cat excavators are essentially designed in Japan, Cat did put some extra meat in the machines to allow them to hold up longer for the long run.
And my boss just traded 10 hoes from a 315 thru a 330 cats for new cases, & kept a 450 deere. He also traded 12, case 580m's for 310sg deere backhoes. When it comes down to it, its the financing and what your trading that matters. Sometimes what you have the dealer has sold so he wants it bad and he is willing to give you top money for it. Combined with that what you want is his lot lizzard....
In my continuing quest for information on "tracks", I ran into an "old timer" of approx. 25 years in the business. He alluded that Komatsu produces some of the most cutting edge technology in excavators, while Kobelco typically buys this technology a few years down the line for their machines.... Can anybody confirm or refute this statement? I must confess that i'm made a little nervous by "technology" related to computer controls in machines..... Maybe lower technology is actually better?
I feel the excavator market is so watered down, there are many, many companies that have excavators like Cat, Deere, Komatsu, Hitachi, Link-Belt, Samsung, Daewoo, Case and on and on and I dont think there is one company that owns the market, unlike dozers were Cat, Deere and Komatsu are just about the only dozers you see for example. The excavator makers is like the car makers, there is so many diffrent names of cars that we couldn't name them all, just like the excavators. But I am sure a fellow member will try
Deere, Hitachi, Kobelco, Komatsu, Case, Link-belt, Cat are all good machines, I have not had experience on Hyundai, JCB,Volvos ect. They all have made good ones and bad ones. Parts and service are number one, Komatsu, Case, Linkbelt and Kobelco use hydraulic fittings that, at least around here the average local hose shop don't stock. I've seen some of these brands set for several days from a blown hose.( I've heard though that the newer Kobelcos' have gone to standard fittings on some of their hoses.) IMO, Cat and Deere/Hitachi have by far the best parts system out there, i've always been able to get parts the next morning if ordered before closing time. But it makes a big difference which dealer your dealing with.( Is your parts man just a warm body or an actual parts person)The next thing is owner preference, and then operator preference. If the operator don't like a machine it's never going to be good and they likely will not take care of it like they would if they liked the machine. And of course, financing enters the picture some where in there. I run a mobile repair service so I just have to repair them and not worry about the rest!
i love contractors that feel they have to "roll" equipment when they hit 2-4k hrs.....if they've been maintained, i buy them for at least half price what they paid for them, charge them out the same rate of a new one, and made more money net in the process. you'll find 2 people happy 1 month after you buy a new one........the dealer, and your banker. unless your workload is so unGodly heavy that you must have and can justify new.........it's not in the books dudes/dudettes