I had the pleasure of parking a six month old JD 770D beside a new Cat 140M and taking a gazillion pictures last week. So I'm going to post some. If I miss something in particular that you want to look at let me know. I tried to take like pictures to get a useable comparison. No tendancy toward discrimination. Just open comparison. Let the debates begin!!! :cool2 First batch are view from the seat, front, left, right.
pics I already see I can't add more than five pics at a time so I'm just going to keep posting replies and adding more stuff. If someone knows a better way, please speak up. More drivers seat pics.
pics Here's a couple that offer a great comparison of the new cab design of the Cat and a traditional design.
pics These are again from the seat, looking at the ground, out the side windows. I'll try to always show the Cat view first, then Deere view.
Excellent pics, ovrszd. Having worked graders but neither of those machines I find the comparison really interesting. Show us more! Rn'R
pics More cab views.
pics These blade pics are with the blades down and rolled completely forward. The others were with the blade up and rolled back.
pics Trying to stick with cab pics before moving on to other things.
pics More cab views from the outside.
pics More cab pics
pics The new cab design also caused changes under the cab. Cat moved the fuel tank under there as well. I don't like that design at all. Hope the plastic tank is tough. :beatsme
pics Since I metioned the fuel tank issue here's three pics that put some relevance to it's location.
pics Blade position in the up position.
pics Blade pictures down and rolled forward.
pics I messed up here, first picture should have went with previous post. More pics of blade and table.
pics More blade table shots.
pics Front axle assembly
pics Front axle pics
Moving to the rear. The 770D mounts the cooling fan in front of the radiators. 140M mounts the cooling fan between the radiators and rear grill.
Interesting set of pictures...but do you think that Cat designed the fuel tank position intelligently? Could it be the next Pinto? lol I'll let the experts figure that one out as this is just my opinion.
pics I took the first two standing on the front tandem tire on the left side looking back. Second pair standing on the rear tandem tire on the right side looking forward.
Over the years I've had the end of my moldboard into the main frame, readjusted a couple lights and bent some cab steps. I would be concerned about stabbing the Cat tank with my blade but I've not ran one of these any amount of time so can't say for sure.
pics I don't like the clutter on the top of the tandem drive on the 140M. But I like the shortened overhang on the back and what appears to be a lot better departure angle. But we must consider that the 140M doesn't have a skid plate.
pics First two pics show difference of no skid versus skid. What I like about the Cat in the first pic is the location of the engine oil drain. But I don't know is what you would do if you had a skid on it??? Fill the skid plate with oil?? I also would worry a little about those fluid drains and no protection without a skid plate?? Second set show the difference in 14.00 tires and 17.5 tires, both Michelins. This is the first set of 17.5 tires I've ran. I really, really like them. More stability, lots more traction, less rutting of my gravel roads when soft.
pics Service area, left side of machines.
pics Service area right side. Third pic is the hiding place for something significant. That meshed panel is on the right side of the 140M, just to the rear of the access door. Can you guess what's behind the bolted screen???? Batteries!!! I don't mind the location, I just cannot understand why they are behind a bolted on screen and not a hinged and latched screen??? :beatsme
Here's some distant shots and my final thoughts. First the 140M. I'm excited about the technology advances. I liked the visibility out of the front corners of the cab toward the blade. Every other view out of that cab I didn't like. I don't understand the high main frame in the front. It does nothing to increase the manueverability of the blade or machine and blinds front visibility. I don't understand the battery access. I don't like the lack of skid plate in the rear. I don't like the roughness of the top of the table at the rear. Looks like it will get chewed up pretty badly if you shift the table when completely raised. Don't like the location and clearance of the fuel tank. Hope for a really good AC system cause I think the sun is going to be shining on the operator all day by the cab design. Don't like that everywhere you look there are hydraulic lines and brake lines exposed to possible damage but that's always been a Cat thing. 770D. Although it's a basic design, there are several advances from the CH models. Those changes were a plus. Love the transmission's smoothness. Like the cab size and shade it offers. Like the dark paint on all surfaces you see from the cab. Really cuts down on eye strain at night. Don't like the throttle cruise control, can't set an engine speed that will remain if you touch the brake or throttle. Hopefully as Steve runs the new 140M we can get him to post some thoughts. He came out of a four year old 140H so can offer thoughts about the changes between the two models. He has also ran a 770CH Series II Deere so might have some insight there also. I've got several more pics and can get access to either machine to take more if someone has something specific they want to see. My camera don't like to take real close pics but I can generally get whatever shots you want. Sorry this ran so long.
It appears that the Deere has components that are heavier than what the 140 has....looking at the front axle and the circle.....didn't see too much visibility advantage when it came right down to it. However, when the new K comes out with electric over hydraulic in the seat and the antler rack disappears visibility will improve to the circle...but still that can be adjusted back to not hamper your visibility.
Awesome comparison... keep us posted on the review!
G'day Gentlemen, Excellent photos comparing the 140M to the 770D. As I studied the photos, I prefer the front vision out of the 770D over the 140M. Rear view out of the cab, I would have to give that to the 140M. The air intake on the 770D is large enough to hide a truck behind. Blade vision right and left, I'd give that to the 140M. Side vision is equal. To get more technical, I don't like the rear wheel clearance against the fuel tanks on the 140M. I feel that the 140M's fuel tanks under the cab are too vulnerable to damage. I haven't operated a 140M in a final trim situation, so I don't have an opinion either way about the new control system. Regards, WILDCAT Keep it under the red and the tolerances tight!
pics The visibility difference is most noticed when looking out the front corners toward the end of the moldboard. Every other angle was similar or less visibility. I noticed quite a difference in material used to construct the circle and front axle also. The engine side panels are a lot lighter material also. The lift cylinders and ends are noticeably smaller as well as the side shift cylinder. I have noticed the difference in material size in earlier models too. I'm not an engineer so can't give a qualified opinion. Cat is known for their durability and longevity so maybe Deere's setup is just overkill? The new Deere model will be labeled a G model and there are a couple pictures of one in a thread on this site. The way I understand it, operator can choose between using a steering wheel or steering with the hand controls. Also rather than using joysticks they use small, short sticks that can be operated with one finger. Supposed to be available in October so we'll see how that works.
pics Our 770D is setup with additional dust protection in the Air Cleaner system which is why it has the huge pre-cleaner. The cab also is equipped for dusty conditions which is why it has a pre-cleaner hanging off the back of the cab roof. I personally don't use the center rear view mirror at all so don't care much about that visibility. I think operators complain about rear visibility because of general design. If you look at the last two pictures posted, which are side views of each machine, you can see how much higher the engine hood and main frame rail are on the 140M. The only reason I could see for the height of the engine hood was because Cat put the muffler under the hood which required more clearance. If you look at the two shots of the engine service area it looks like the Cat engine is really small because of the low height of the valve cover. Actually it appears that way because the hood is so high. I have no logical answer for raising the height of the main frame in the front. The new G model Deere is built the same way. There's no gain in moldboard height when raised. There's no manueverability gain for the circle. It's a killer for front visibility. Maybe an engineer can chime in and give a logical reason? :beatsme I too wonder about the fuel tank location. Our JD salesman commented that 140M operators complained about hitting the tank when using chains, but that no one had reported a breach of the tank that he knew of. He's not an operator and just looked at me with that glazed over look when I said I was more worried about breaching the tank with the end of the moldboard.
i like the veiw with no sticks in the way
pics Yes. The first plus I noticed when I sat down in the 140M was nothing obstructing my view out the corners and down. Then I looked straight forward out the windshield and couldn't understand that design at all. I guess it more depends on the application. I maintain gravel roads which is what Steve does also. I look straight forward about as much as I look at my moldboard ends. It was very interesting to have both designs sitting side by side. I spent 90 minutes shooting these pictures and crawling in and out, looking every direction, touching everything, even checking the engine oil, etc. I am detail oriented and found myself looking at things as simple as the latch designs on the side panels. Deere's design freezes shut badly. Cat's design doesn't appear to be any better, small folding latch handle that twists and would be impossible to get ahold of with gloves on. The distance between the foot throttle and the brake pedal on the 140M is too far. The rear steer twist action on the 140M left joystick was backward to me. The release mechanism on the doors of the 770D when latched open seem cheap and prone to breakage. The 140M worked smoothly and seemed durable. The location of the cruise control switch on the 770D is awkward and hard to find without looking. I looked for the 140M switch but never found it, I was flooded by all the switches in the cab and gave up. The cab ladders on the 770D are easy to hook with the blade end. The 140M ladders are tucked back at an angle matching the front corners of the cab so shouldn't be as prone to that. But then the plastic tank is inches behind them so hope that's true. Took me a full minute to find the batteries on the 140M. I only found them by following the cables. The key location on the 140M is in the front dash console. You sit in the seat, then have to lean forward to reach the key. Park switch is in the same place. 770D key and all other switches are within easy reach with the right hand Funny how little things like that stick in your mind when doing a critical comparison. The things I found annoying on the 770D were great on the 140M and visa-versa.
Wow awesome post ovrszd. As a huge fan of graders, i enjoyed seeing all the pics. That comparison rivaled even the car comparison shows on tv:notworthy Very good. Too bad you didn't have a Volvo to park in there, to get the complete comparison. Funny, like you said, it seems like for every advancement Cat made on the new M, they went backwards on some other small detail that was ok before. Oh, well I'm sure there'll be running changes made as time goes by. Those Deere's look like a pretty nice grader too eh? A company I was working with around here had a couple new 880's (or 870's whatever they are?) last summer. The operators said they really liked them. How do you think the Volvo would compare against these two?
Fantastic good comparison! Better than most magazines do. Good, objective comments as well! I'm mostly amazed of how similar these creatures seem to be. Speaking of graders, is it industry standard to have the articulation point behind the cab or does it vary a lot between the brands? Or perhaps was it different in the past?
Great pics and review. I'm new to blades, just have a couple hours running an old 14G, but blades are something I'd like to dabble a little with in the future. I like to keep up on the new stuff coming out so this helps a lot, thanks again.
I would have loved to have a Volvo there!!!! Another thing I wish I'd done was to do the same photographic comparison between the 770D and Steve's 140H before the M arrived. Would have been great to see the changes between the H and M using the 770D as a relative comparison.
articulation Yes, it's standard for the articulation to be behind the cab. This design keeps the operator inline with the blade circle and front tires which is usually what the operator is guiding on. I think it would be very difficult to run if the operator station stayed with the rear and the front, including the circle articulated away from him. Sometimes with this design I get so involved in what the blade is doing that I only realize how much I've rear steered when I change direction. If I have to back the machine much distance at all I use the rear steer and leave the front tires straight. I can back the machine 20 mph fairly easily using that method. Anything faster can get a little squirrelly.
I learned to operate a grader on an old Cat 12. Gear drive lift. Stand up operation. No rear steer. No AC. No radio (couldn't hear it anyway). In summer I would come home at night totally exhausted, dehydrated and so dusty you couldn't tell what color my hair was. My hands would hurt and palms bruised from the levers banging on them all day. Graders have came a long ways. I can move more material in an hour with today's machine than could be moved in a day with that old Cat 12. :notworthy
As I said before, excellent set of pics, ovrsd. I am wondering why the Cat only has a weather cap on the air intake instead of a precleaner? I wouldn't dream of using a machine in our conditions without a precleaner. The precleaner on the John Deere is a Sy-Klone and marketed here by Fleetguard. I have started fitting our machines with them and they seem to be working very well. On the Sy-Klone website they list Cat as one of the manufacturers that fit this precleaner as original equipment. John Deere use them as well. Just curious. Rn'R
precleaner I must admit I didn't research this in detail on the 140M. The primary air cleaner is sitting on top of the engine, under the hood, the inlet sticks out of the hood with a rain cap but no apparent pre-cleaner mechanism. I might have missed something there though. Heck I couldn't find the batteries!!! There's a couple pictures that show the aircleaner systems on each machine. Several years ago we bought a new Deere 770BH without a pre-cleaner. It's air inlet was in the front end of the engine compartment, just behind the cab. It would plug the filter in 40 hours of dusty operation. We didn't make that mistake again. I was running yesterday and on my finish pass the dust was so bad behind me that I couldn't tell if traffic was behind me or not.
OVRSZD, Thanks for the comparison pics. I have always been going to do this, but have never taken the time. Just a comment on the cruise control, on your post #6, the top pic of the rabbit/turtle button - if you hit the "turtle/RES" button shown, it will resume right back to the RPM you were at before you hit the brake or throttle pedal. It works great once you get used to it. I never change RPM if just shuttling between F & R, no need to change engine speed or use the clutch, that trans in the Deere D series is awesome. I would like to know what you and Steve have to say about which grader has more power. My opinion is that the new Cat M series is underpowered. Thanks again for the pics, you spent a lot of time on it, I appreciate it! Geno
Gentlemen Great thread! Just wanted to add my two pennies worth to help with the confusion or for those in the know it will help clear up some myths. If you’re not really interested in this drive; the off ramp is in the top right corner of your screen, I suggest you hit it now. If you are interested then grab a cup of coffee, sit down, put on your seat belt your hardhat, I’ll buy the fuel and do the driving. The great “Motor Grader Debate” will go on forever. It won’t be solved here. It used to be my job to do exactly what you’re doing here and to help solve the debates. I wrote numerous reports after spending months running these machine and collecting data. We had instruments (fuel flow meters, LVTDs, accelerometers, pressure taps, load cells & meters, wireless recorders, temperature probes) connected to the machines. We ran the machines on dynos (water & electronic). We also tore the machines down, measured and weighed different components. Calculated the brake mean effect pressures on the engines internal components. Calculated the clutch pack, brake pack and other wear surface components square inch wear areas so we could estimate life cycle cost deference’s. I poured over the data when we were done testing and then wrote my reports. I can guarantee you one thing; I never biased a test nor fudged numbers. That was the main reason we used instruments rather than just seat of the pants. There was no knowledge to be gained by cheating. What did I learn? Deere builds a good motor grader, I thought Caterpillar was better and the numbers proved it most of the time, but not in all cases. To the nuts and bolts: Hydraulics is a great example; these two companies use two very different theories to accomplish the same objective and that’s why you see a visual difference. Caterpillar uses higher pressure over a smaller area while Deere uses lower pressure over a larger area. Mathematically they can both create similar forces, but the parasitic loses created during the task are different. Now I admit that I’m behind the times some because both have made numerous changes, but the theory still remains very similar. Caterpillar’s maximum operating pressure is 3500 psi, while Deere’s is 2750 psi if memory serves me right on Deere. Caterpillar applies higher pressure on a smaller hydraulic cylinder piston to create so many pounds of force while Deere was using a lower pressure on a larger piston to create so many pounds of force. You can get both speed and power with a smaller piston at higher pressure, but if your hose can’t handle the pressures effectively then you’re left with only one option. Okay; why the difference? This requires some history so that all can understand and I can personally speak for Caterpillar only. During the development of the G Series the main target for the hydraulic system was to develop a HYDRAULIC system which worked like a MECHANICAL system. It is extremely important to remember that all of Caterpillar’s graders were mechanical before the G Series. Why the mechanical system? So the moldboard could be locked into a known position when the controls weren’t being manipulated. This was critical for doing tight tolerance finish work and still is to this day. If the moldboard can’t be locked into a position then the averaging principal of the machine is useless. The entire principle behind a motor grader and what separates it from other machines is its ability to average. The G Series was Caterpillar’s first attempt at a hydraulic motor grader. This is what drove the development of the XT/XT3 hose, which Caterpillar still controls the patents on. This hose is a spiral wrap hose not a braided hose. Why? They needed a hose which had no accumulation affect. Accumulation effect in hydraulic hose equates to inadvertent cylinder movement and uncontrolled movement of the moldboard. Inadvertent moldboard movement is unacceptable on a finishing machine. This is what also drove the development of the “lockcheck valve” on G Series. With the combination of non accumulating hyd hose and lock check valves they could lock the moldboard into position with hydraulics much the same way that a mechanical system did. It was years later that all the other manufactures installed lockcheck valves on the competitive machines, but they still do not use spiral wrap hose due to patent infringement. It again is extremely important to understand that there is a multiplying effect between the cylinders and the moldboard end depending on how much side-shift is induced. Just .050 of an inch (not much more than a credit card thickness) cylinder movement can equate to four times that much movement at the end of moldboard depending on the side shift position. Now start adding up the clearances required in all the mechanical joints (lift cylinder mounting yokes, cylinder rod end ball sockets, drawbar to circle, moldboard tip pins, moldboard tip cylinder pins, side shift rails to tip carriage) just to make it moveable. Adds up pretty fast. On to the hyd. pump; I’m not really sure what pump Deere is using now, but they were using a radial style piston pump, which wasn’t a bad pump. I thought I had read some where they were going to change to an axial style like Caterpillar has used since 1974. One of the main down sides I saw between Deere’s radial style pump and Caterpillar’s axial style pump was the standby pressures required. Deere had to keep the minimum standby pressure on the inner case set much higher since that’s what pushes the radial pistons away from the accuating cam. This is how they destroke the pump during low demand. Caterpillar’s axial style pump could standby at just 390 psi. and go all way up to 3500 psi. (3900 psi cutout) when required. The important part to understand here is the lower parasitic of the axial style pump frees up more horsepower to either power the drive train or save on fuel depending on the application. Again; two very different theories to accomplish a similar task. Champion/Volvo for years used a gear style pump (very crude) with an unloader valve, but finally saw the light and switched to an axial style pump like Caterpillar. In regards to the precleaner; the M has a strata-tube dust ejector system, it’s built into the aircleaner housing now rather than a separate unit like the G & H had. Still operates on the same principal. You can even see the suction tube in one of the engine compartment photos. Nice to see they finally put an anti backflow valve at the dustpan to prevent fires. Mmmmm? For those that were comparing transmissions in the other thread; remember the G Series all had mechanically controlled hard-mounted “Planetary Drive” transmissions. The 14 & 16H continued to use the hard-mounted planetary drive transmission, but all the other H Series switched to resiliently mounted electronically control “Countershaft Drive” transmission. Two totally different animals. The M Series uses e controlled resilient mounted countershaft drive. Okay my fingers are tired from typing and I have to go shopping before the store gets over run with tourist. Hope there’s not too many errors; I was in a hurry and going off memory or what’s left of it! We will continue this drive later. I hope you realize there’s way more to this than what you can see with a camera. :drinkup Regards, Randy Krieg
Yep, I understand the RES feature. What I would like is the ability to pick and RPM and the engine stay there regardless of what I do with the pedals, like an old style hand throttle. Since the 770D does not have that feature it becomes very important to me that the brake pedal and foot throttle pedal are close together. That allows me to run both simultaneously with one foot. By tilting my ankle I can change the RPM while holding a constant pressure on the brake. I use this for example when I've stopped to change direction and want to run multiple hydraulics at the same time. A little RPM boost speeds up the hydraulics better than at idle. Otherwise, I use the cruise control all the time when doing road maintenance. I run the throttle manually when doing short work and changing directions a lot. I'm also anxious for Steve to get some seat time so him and I can compare notes about the operation of these two machines. I've talked to only one operator in person that went from an H to an M. He commented repeatedly that the M didn't have the torque that the H did. We'll post more as the M gets used.
Randy, your technical knowledge is dramatically higher than mine. I did understand the points you were making though and consider them worthy of note. I certainly realize there's more than a camera view to be had here. Hopefully we can add more operational info as the summer goes along.
The Cat seem to be a little higher so maybe a skid plate wouldn't be as important? Wonder if they could have designed a skid that was easily dropped for changing oil? Still though I'm surprised that there isn't a skid plate.. Great comparison by the way! Thanks
Ovrszd, Great pics of the Cat and Deere and the side by side shots. I always like to compare each machines good and bad features. I will try to get some pics soon of my Volvo on here and tell what I like and don't about it.I will try to get some video of my sod mulcher in operation before I take it off.(it works really well!) Randy regarding the "more to this than what you can see with a camera" issue, most can usually tell what a machine will be like, just from looking it over. I think I forgot to wear my hardhat because my head still hurts from your great review of hydralics!! Tell Steve to hurry up and get some reviews for us!
Randy the only problem I see with your comments is you know the nuts and bolts of the Cat, but not the Deere. Your specs of the Deere are pre-generation models and does not exactly pertain here. I could go into all the specs and operations of all the system, but would take to long. It has been put to me as simple as this from numerous extremely experienced "grader" operators, I will cut the path with the Deere and finish it with the Cat. They all like using the Deere for rough grade for several reasons and using the Cat for the finish grade. The Deere now puts more power to the ground and can sweep the roads with great easy and comfort. The Cat has more "feel" during fine finish grade and the operators say they have more control. We could explain all this in Engineering terms, but it just isn't necessary. Unless you want to here it.
Which thread? in a few years time, I think that most graders will have joysticks either as a standard feature, or will be an available option. I think that since Cat took a big leap to joysticks, other manufacturers are holding back while making small changes towards joysticks, to see what Cat has done 'wrong.' You don't have to make a mistake to learn from one JD is very closely competing with Cat, and whilst in this country, most old machines are Caterpillar, most newer ones are Bell(JD) or Volvo, but I don't know what Volvo is up to in terms of joysticks, although there is a chap on the member list who has a Volvo with joysticks. MKTEF is his name, and he has several posts on "Cat, Volvo,or Deere" the other day i was both surprised and shocked to see a new cat 140 M being roaded up to JHB, as my Cat dealer said that they weren't coming in until early next year. I myself think that the Deere has much stronger front axle assemblies, especially for African conditions.
That is info from the Con Expo show, those control may or may not be configured the way you saw them or heard about them. This new model will also carry a nose very similar to that of a Cat.
NCBSCHZZT I’m waiting for your explanation. :notworthy What better place to present it so that we can all learn. In well over 30 years of running these jewels I have never heard it explained the way you did. So please educate me, but remember I’m just an operator. If things have change then why are they still running 2750 psi.? I just looked it up on their webpage. LOL Regards, Randy
joysticks My dealer told me last week that the new G model Deere will be offered with armrest controls or the standard configuration. Also said the Deere with armrest controls has a steering wheel and steering can be switched from armrest control to steering wheel control by the operator. I agree with the general thought that everyone will eventually utilize some form of joystick controls. I'm hoping in our case to avoid the growing pains since it will be four years before we trade into a G model Deere or M model Cat. They'll surely have most of the bugs out by then.
Roadrunner I respectfully disagree, I say you can’t judge a book by it’s cover. That’s just MY opinion. When something works really well I like to try and figure out why and if it doesn’t work well I really want to know why! :idontgetit I’ve always said that 6 tires and moldboard is where the simalarities end and I’ve operated them and torn them apart and seen this for myself. A good example was testing all wheel drives. I was so impressed :thumbsup with Deeres AWD I tore it apart to study how it worked and even read their patents. In regards to cooling; Caterpillar used a Series System, Deere used a Parallel Sytem (still does by looking at the pictures), why, why, why, I wasn’t happy to just accept the facts, I wanted to know why & how. What I would really appreciate from you is if you could tell me about your mulcher in another thread. Please give details if you have time. What you like, what you don’t like. I’ve read a little about them, but have never run one as an "attachment". They look like a great idea, but we have a lot of large rocks on our foreslopes, so I’m curious as to whether or not it would work up here. OVRSZD In regards to the “Transmission Guard” (Cat) and “Bottom Guard” (Deere) both are listed as optional attachments/equipment just like the front lift group. You just happen to have one machine order with it and one without. I also see that the bottom of the Deere muffler has an asperator tube like Caterpillar's, yet they're running a Cyclone precleaner. Interesting. It would be easy to set the Deere up with a Stratube system, maybe it's optional? Would explain the muffler. Regards, Randy
Must say that this thread is realy a good one. Here we have a huge amount of info about some of the most popular graders. OVRSZD we owe u a big one:drinkup:drinkup And i have just been:jerry And i have to say that i agree with Randy. There isn't just enough to look at the outside to get the whole picture. I've been involved in testing of military equipment and we do exactly the same as Randy has done at Cat. Make a test schedule for each component/system/machine and test it with all technical stuff available, and do it in a way so that it can be repeated. And i can assure u, u will find that some designs is not as good as others. Problem is, u cant change the whole system at once, there isn't enough money in R&D for that.... Thats the reason for the difference in the different products.(Patents is another) Randy: I bet the Deere's got a stratube system originaly. But when u add a cyclone precleaner, as this one got, u get to high wacume in your filter system. It will suck exaust into the filter. So u have to blend that system when adding a cyclone. We had to do the same when adding the oilbath on our Volvo's. I also bet that when adding a bottom guard, the Cat will be fitted with longer hoses for the oil drainige systems. We got the same system on our Volvo guards, so u don't need to drop them when changing oil. I've said some about joysticks in another treads... No grader will be sold here in Scandinavia without joysticks... I bet the rest of the world will come after in a couple of years as Cat get the marked in that direction. I'll see if i can find some time for some photos of our 976 in the same views as here, if u are interrested?
ovrszd, Curious as to the ease of getting from the ground into the cab and from the seat down to the ground on each machine.
Randy I agree with you about about the" book and cover "thing what I mean is that some machines you can obviously see the quality difference in materials and lay out of the machines components.I also agree thta it is a must to operate it as well to fully know it's capabilities. I will try to get some pics or video this week of my mulcher for ya!:drinkup
Yeah, I figured the Bottom Guard was available on the Cat. My curiosity was how to drain the fluids without dumping them into the guard?? Maybe longer hoses are on the drains? Maybe someone that runs an M with a guard can explain. Bear with me on the precleaner subject as I'm not technically proficient in my terms used. Our last two Deere CH models had an asperator tube muffler. Neither models used it, same with the D model. The older BH model that I referred to earlier used the asperator tube system without a cyclone type precleaner. It's the one that sucked in heavy dust and plugged the airfilter quickly. When we started ordering our machines with a cyclone type precleaner our filter problem was minimized. It is my belief that if you do not order a cyclone type precleaner on a Deere, you get the asperated muffler design. Which in my opinion is inferior.
entering/exiting Bear with me while I ramble a bit. I remember the first time I saw the Deere D model. I didn't like the large cab design and commented on it to the salesman. He said Deere changed the design of the cab to add door size. He said operators were complaining that they couldn't get in/out of the Deere with their previous smaller door design. Hmmmmmm,,,, maybe some operators need to go on a diet!!! I also commented on the steps, Deere added a third, lower step and use rubber belting to hold them in place. Again the salesman said operators complained about the older C model design because they couldn't get their foot up high enough to reach the lower step because it was a solid mounted step without a third, lower step. I again commented that maybe they needed to get a little exercise!!! When our D was delivered my first thoughts in regards to the new cab design and step design was that I was going to hook the steps with my blade. But I also knew I'd just have to get used to it. I was right. I do hook the steps with my blade. I haven't got used to it yet. It is very possible to side shift the blade with the circle turned and hook the lower step with the top/end corner of the blade and tear it completely off the grader. I haven't done that yet but I have bent the bottom step on the left side. Cat's design might not have that problem because of the angles of the cab front. But as I comment previously, my concerns with the Cat would be more about punching a hole in the fuel tank than tearing a step!! As far as getting in and out. Once you get used to having the steps on flexible rubber straps, both machines are similar in regards to step location, height, etc. Steps hanging on rubber straps are like climbing a rope ladder. When you put your weight on the first step and pull yourself off the ground the step moves toward the machine. That's aggravating to me but unavoidable with that particular design. When exiting both machines you want to simply walk out frontwards. About the time you try to put your heel on the bottom step while the belting sways in toward the machine you realize you probably should have backed out. The difference in cab design on these two machines comes into play when entering the door. Being accustomed to getting in a machine with the traditional steering wheel/lever controls, the M model seems a little odd at first because there's nothing to grab onto. But then you realize you don't need anything to grab onto. Once you turn around and sit down you get the feeling of a huge cab. Feels like the seat is farther back in the cab. Then you shut the door and everything comes back into perspective. The M model cab is the smallest cab design Cat has used in modern times. But I don't mind that. I wonder a little about how much sunshine the operator has to contend with but haven't ran one extensively so can't comment logically on that. I also hated the location of the cup holder. It's high on the right side, out by the window. Looks like spills will land on controls or be running down the window. The cooler space is on the floor, right side, under the cup holder. Doesn't appear to be very big so you'll have to pack a small cooler. As for the Deere, when you conquer the steps and enter the cab the lever controls are slightly in the way. Especially if you have your coat or lunch bucket in your hand. Again, once you sit down and pull the levers back into operational position everything comes into perspective. There appears to be a LOT more storage space in the Deere cab. My cooler fits the platform on the left side of the driver. The cup holder is in front of the cooler location and low which I really like, no spills on controls or whatever. Just in front of the cup holder is a storage slot that I can put my cell phone in. Overhead on the right side is a storage shelf that I put my gloves, dust rag, etc. in. To the front, above the windshield on each side of the mirror are two more storage shelves with stretchable netting to contain items. They provide more space than I use. I keep extra rags, extra sunglasses, phone charger, etc. in one of them. One oddity is the power plugs are on the left side above and to the rear of the cooler position. The radio is on the right side at roofline. I use XM radio. I had to mount my XM radio on the left side so I could plug it in. Seemed odd to not have the power plugs near all the other electronics in the cab. The only thing on the left side are those two power plugs. Bottom line, if I had to crawl in/out of each machine all day long, I'd rather it be the M model. If I had to sit in each machine all day long, I'd rather it be the D model. But again, I haven't spent 12 hours a day pushing snow in an M model so it's just an initial impression that I'm talking about.
Ovrszd Interesting read on the cab. I'll write some more later in regards to some other items. Right now I have a brand new 385CL about to arrive in the Port of Anchorage on a Totem Ocean Express ship. We are getting a mechanics crew and crane ready to start assembling the machine at the Port. Then get it on a lowboy headed north. Regards, Randy
Hey Randy, get some pics. I'm curious how Totem hauled it. Was it brought on the lowboys that brought it from Florida or transfered to other trailers? Interesting that Totem brought it. I suppose they are the fastest though.:cool2
Lashlander It's in ship 8107, on 5 seperate trailers, it was transfered to these trailers and lowboy at the Port of Tacoma. Totem was about four days quicker Tacoma to Anchorage. Sorry I highjacked ovrszd's thread. Randy
Thanks for the reply. Not a highjack. Just a little touch and go! Now about them graders! opcorn
Randy, I was wondering if you have operated a Deere "D" series grader. I am very acquainted with your operating skills and past experience. What I am looking for is your operational experience with this latest Deere introduction. I have run 12G 12H 143H and 14H Cat machines...but by no means am I an experienced operator. I have also ran 672B 672CH 672D and 872D machines...but none full time or long enough to shave a gnats ass . Nevertheless, I am looking for your feedback in regards to hydraulic speed etc. if you have had the opportunity to operate a comparable Deere machine to what you run on a regular basis. Also, I am looking for feedback, from anyone reading, regarding the "M" series cat control reaction...I found it VERY difficult to meter the blade and steering on the demo unit that I ran last year...seemed jerky...didn't want to take it off of a high wall...by the way it was a 140M...same experience on a 12M field follow unit. I am just trying to wrap my head around updated control operation and an experienced operator experience (if it has occurred). Just let me know…I always enjoy getting opinion and fact from experienced and tenured veterans who have multirole experience from operation to evaluation (Randy) Look forward to good feedback!
Randy, Unfortunately I can not explain every thing I know about these machines do to confidently agreements per John Deere. However I can tell you that your specs are outdated, what is on the website means nothing to me. So this place is not the best place to explain all these details, if I saw you in person I would certainly teach you more about what is going on today, and what pertains to these newer machines. I am in no way questioning your operating abilities, but that is what you are an operator with a fascination with the operational principles of those machines you operate. I wish their were more of you, makes my job a little easier. I am not a grader operator, I am a grader driver. However I take the comments and questions that operators make seriously as that helps my job. So as a young punk with only 10 years of experience I am a technician who is focused on diagnostics and operational theories, I have had operator after operator say these things to me. Maybe its just because they are just a bunch of hillbillies from the desert, but thats not important. What I was saying earlier was that you know quite a bit about the Cat machines, but little about the Deere. Your comments were trying to come off as equal explanation of the two graders, but came off more as an excellent explanation of the Cat grader. I would love to here more about what you found with the Deere machine equal to that of the Cat. This helps me with setting up machines to feel similar to that of a Cat machine for crossover customers. So please let us know more about your experience with the Deere product. :notworthy
Quite a statement. Probably if it wasn't for the "hillbillies" that operate your equipment, you wouldn't have much of a pay check.
crossovers ncbschzzt mentioned setting up machines for crossover operators. I've been running new Deere machines for nineteen years. I've watched Deere go thru this transition. Every time they make a model change there are things that make them more like a Cat. Sometimes that's good but most times it's not for the Deere operators in the field. Deere carried over their "user friendly" concepts from their AG line into their Construction line. Some of that is lost with each model change. One example would be the cab design and control valve locations of the D model versus the CH model and everything prior. By locating the valves and control system similar to Cat's design, under the floor ahead of your feet, they lost blade visibility. By making the cab bigger and doors larger to be more like Cat they again lost blade and ground visibility. I find it extremely amusing that when Deere enlarged it's cab, Cat shrunk theirs. I know the G model Deere is already in production, but I'm betting when the next model is designed it will go back to a smaller cab design like they had used for years in previous models. Very amusing. In past models Deere has offered "one hand controls" for the blade. Now the factory no longer offers that design, it has to be modified/added at the dealership. In my opinion the Deere "one hand control" setup was revolutionary. I have NO IDEA why any operator would want his blade lift controls on opposite ends of the lever rack??? Maybe someone can explain that to me?? :beatsme Since we started buying Deere machines I've always had them setup with one hand controls. Now with joystick style controls it becomes a mute point but still intrigues me. Sometimes the term "industry standards" gets thrown around and stifles experimentation and progress. I think Deere's move into the Construction Equipment market has been very good for the industry. I think it has forced Cat to evolve and modernize. I think it had a direct impact on their move into the technological advances of the M model. :drinkup Not been very many years ago when Cat bragged about having engine monitoring gauges on their machines while Deere relied on buzzers and lights. What they didn't advertise was that their gauges were mounted on the engine compartment and required the operator to look over his shoulder to check his oil pressure. How antiquated is that?? :beatsme In my discussions about all this I don't mean to exclude Volvo. I think they are definitely a player in where grader production is headed. I just don't have access to any in my area for comparison.
I am one of those hillbillies, and you are right they make my paycheck.
I agree with you almost 100%, the G model is now even more like a Cat. The only difference is really the drivetrain, but even then still not much different. The problem is there are a lot of veterans who don't like change, I think that comes from being afraid of not being the best at what they do anymore. If they can keep things the same then they will always be the best, however if things change then their maybe someone better out there. This goes for mechanics as well, I have endured many a old timer telling me I am just a young punk that doesn't know what I am doing. So I always tell them you are just a mechanic with 30 years of bad habits. For example computers are the here and now, but some of these older guys don't want anything to do with it. Our manuals are on computer, the machines use computers, we talk on computers, everything uses a computer. If you don't like them, then you will always be stuck with the parts changing aspect of these newer generation of machines. And that is exactly what is happening, but since grader operators are so powerful they have been able to keep the technology and change from really developing. We all know that grader operators are the most skilled of construction operators, but I think that is just because the machine is harder to operate than others. What if the operation of the grader was completely changed different than anything we know. There would a lot of pissed off grader guys, but a new generation of guys could emerge to be even better than the last. But no we wouldn't want that to happen, now would we.....:idontgetit
changes And in return I agree almost 100% with what you are saying. A couple examples. A few years ago a dyed in the wool Cat man ran my Deere for about thirty minutes and said those "one hand controls" weren't for him. I mentioned how much quicker the blade could be controlled and he said he didn't care about that, it just wasn't natural to have both controls in one hand simultaneously. A couple years later an old operator told me he'd never run a grader that you couldn't stand up in as he looked at our new low cab Deere, now he runs a D model Deere sitting down. That same operator is running his new D model on bias ply tires because he doesn't like the way Radials work. That's because he's never ran on Radials. We upgraded to 17.5 Radial tires on our present machine and hopefully never go back to 14s, let alone go all the way back to Bias ply 14s. In another ten years or so I'll be one of those old operators that is fighting change. I just hope I am logical enough to adapt or at least go home. The electric over hydraulic changes that are coming are excellent. They will speed up operation dramatically. An example would be that on the M model you can turn the front tires, rear steer, lift both ends of the blade and rotate the circle while also changing direction and never let go of a stick with either hand. Let me see an old operator do that in his "industry standard" machine out of the last decade. :cool2 As the cost of hourly operation continues to increase on all machinery it will become critically important for a machine to be designed for fast operation. There was a discussion on here recently about the Volvo machines being able to grade faster without loping. If that is true, it is very significant. While maintaining gravel roads I make three passes. The first two are at 7 mph, the third at 15 mph. That allows me to grade approximately 2.2 miles of road per hour. The above mentioned oldtimer runs 6 mph on all three passes. That allows him to grade approximately 1.8 miles of road per hour. At the end of an 8 hour day we are separated by 3.2 miles. At the end of a five day week we are separated by 16 miles. This compounding effect makes it a critical economic issue to speed up the machine as long as the end result quality is the same. The operator I'm referring to rarely uses his rear steer, never using it when turning around. Hmmmmmmm,,,,,, at the end of the year how much money has he cost his township???
Geez..I don't know where to start. Very interesting discussion you guys have going here. Start here I guess. You know, it's great that you like the one handed controls but you have to understand that everyone doesn't share the same feelings. I prefer the lift levers on each side as this is what I am used to. Does that make me less of an operator? No. To me it's like a balance..left is left right is right. Could I operate a grader with "one hand control"? Yes but I would always prefer the two levers. That's me. Operation/contols of graders is changing every day and we are doing the best to keep up with it. Its not so much as being ticked off with the new generation coming in or taking over, as this is going to be a given. To be better than the last? Sure..with the new technology they are bound to be better because the computers will be doing it for them. See how they do if they just have to rely on their eyeball and experience. No older grader operator is going to be ticked off..you know why? We have nothing to prove.:drinkup
Ovrszd you are talking about grading speed here... Take a look at the Hydronord constant pressure system.... I've posted some info about it in other treads. All operators here in Scandinavia demands it, it makes u increase your speed dramaticaly when doing gravel grading. That system makes your down pressure constant, adjusted many times pr second. Another question from me: Why dosen't you guy's use a gravel spreader? That thing makes u do two passes in one. And its real handy when u got long stretches with roads to maintain.
I knew we'd get you into this discussion Grader4me!!!! Heheheheheh. As for the one hand control debate. Notice I focused my opinions on speed of operation. That's where that system shines. When I'm at the end of a run and turning around I lift both ends of my blade and rear steer with my right hand not moving off the levers, while my left hand steers the front. Or another example, when I'm hauling butt down the road pushing snow at 15 mph and need to make blade adjustments I never have to let go of the steering wheel. I'm not picking on operators that prefer the industry standard of lifts on both ends. I've just never ran into an operator that prefers that setup that has ever spent more than a few minutes running a one hand control setup. I have ran into a couple operators that after spending some time with it admit that it's a lot better setup. In my case, I have no electronic equipment on my blade. I've never ran a laser guided system or anything like that. When I make a cut it's always with my eyeball and historical experience. Sometimes it's on the mark, sometimes it's not.
I've heard you talk about this before. I'll research it more. I thought maybe it was something that we couldn't get here?? I travel from Missouri to Colorado a couple times a year. When I'm crossing Kansas which is basically open prairie with roads running straight as far as you can see, I see graders pulling gravel spreaders. They might only turn around a few times in a day and hardly ever grader sharp curves or hills. In my case I'm in Northern Missouri hill country. My roads are curvy and hilly and I rarely grade more than two miles in one run. I'm not saying it wouldn't work for me. I just don't think it would work as well as if I were in more open country. But as I said, I'll research. Thanks for the suggestion.
Whaaat??? You can't do that with your machine?? Keep practicing my friend..:cool2 :waving
ncBSchzzt I’ve worked at the factory level, the dealer level, sub-contractor consulting level, contractor level and there is NO confidentiality agreements that you need worry about at a dealer mechanics level. I personally don’t think you know what you’re talking about and No I’m not going to accept a Deere Dealer sales-gram as your information source for technical data and fact. I’ve read them before and then gone out and proved them wrong. Interesting that Deere won’t publish the 160MAWD against the 872D in their comparisons. Make sure I get this straight here; you want me to work harder so that your job will be easier???? What a novel idea that is! Hello. Try learning it the way us old “Hillbillies” learned it. I’m not sure what you missed when you looked at the M Series, but if that’s not change that some old “Hillbillies” helped Caterpillar make, I don’t know what else you could call it. I guarantee I know a few things about Deere. We will continue this discussion since I really want to answer some questions that some other operators had, but right now I have a HEX to get together and on a lowboy headed North.
Andy Gump, You have proven to me again your information is dated, when we login into our Dealernet or S.A. we have to agree to terms and conditions which state the confidentiality agreements every time we login. Your comments and pictures prove you are a Cat guy not a non-bias operator like you tried to come off as in previous threads. What I was trying to explain to you when I like to see operators that understand their machine is it helps me diagnose the problem, because they have good understanding of what is happening. I guess you would rather leave the Tech in the dark and let him figure it out on his own, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If I am an operator and have information that might help get my machine get fixed faster I would let him know everything that I know. I also never stated anything about Cat's product, I am not an expert with their equipment and am not trying to say I am. I am an expert with Deere's construction equipment and my statements reflect fact about the technical aspects of this equipment. Deere agrees, Hitachi agrees, the Court system agrees, my pay check agrees, and so does customers across the west coast. I have nothing to prove, but to help you understand a little more I will post my training records since 02' Also I am not sure why there are pics of a Cat excavator being assembled in this thread. That has nothing to do with graders or experience, maybe it does. I guess I should post pics of machines I built, from EX750's 800's 850's EX1100's EX1200's EX1800's EX3600's EX5500's. Though seeing pics of a 365C Cat house floating around is interesting still doesn't impress me, nope not at all. If you like you can follow my thread (Hitachi Mining Treats) that is going to be updated Mon with the assembly of 3600-6 and 5500-6 from start to finish. Going into the Expo then coming out to just get disassembled again, that is a little more interesting than a 365C Cat assembly. P.S. if you have any official Deere training I would love to see it here. Again I am not doubting your Cat experience or training, so try and keep that out of it. :notworthy Remember this was a question about Deere TECHNICAL experience. :cool2 Daman
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opcorn:cool2
opcorn opcorn I enjoy this thread too. But please, keep the discussion on a professional basis. Meaning; discuss the products posted here.... I am not that interrested in your technical background.:beatsme
I can't read all that I'll look at the pics instead
Pics tell a thousand words.
I ate a bad burrito
Let's keep this thread focused on the comparison of the two graders. This can prove to be a very interesting and informative discussion on new products.
So to try and get this back on track..well almost. Man you have it down to a science! Geezz I would just go and grade a road and do the best job that I can..Much to stressful to be on a time limit. You make three passes, so I assume that you are just sifting the gravel from one side to another. What about the potholes? How would not using the rear steer cost the township money? I take my time when grading and turning . Most times I cut all the way across then feather the material back across the road, leaving more in the center to keep my crown. Depending on the width at times it will take seven passes. I'm afraid I wouldn't make the grade (excuse the pun) in your township. Oh..How does the comparison make the other operator feel? Surely the township has got rid of him by now. On edit...sorry...back to the main focus of this thread!
When I ran the new Deere G model prototype the controls were extremely smooth, the electro-hydraulic controls were right close to me and felt very natural. The controls were just like the ones you would see in a newer model J loader with finger tip controls. I felt like there was no end in the metering of the controls. I am not the greatest driver of a grader, but I could begin to pick up the controls of this grader very quickly. After about ten minutes I was able to really start operating the controls simultaneously almost in a type of harmony. I began to get excited about operating this machine, almost like "hey I could go and start cutting some road!" Then reality struck my phone rang as my boss was calling me to a job, I don't know how it does it. Ruins my fun every time!
ncbschzzt, when do you think these new G series will be come available. I was talking to a service rep today, and he was not sure when they are coming. I have seen/posted a couple of pictures of a G, but if you have any more I would like to see them. p.s. with all that schooln, do you need to a MD or PHD to you name?
Thats a good question, I was so busy with other happenings I forgot to ask. I know exactly who to talk to though to find out a good time frame. I remember we were all tinkering with the 764HSD and kind of left all the other new machines out to dry. lol I like the new K loader monitor, same as the new Ag stuff. We were told to take ZERO pictures of the new stuff, thats alright I guess. Well I am not getting MD or PHD money and I am not nearly as smart as they are. I guess you could call me a D.A. with a wrench. Dumb Ass with a Wrench
Darn I wish I had time to read all this, but it's been a long day and I just want a shower and sleep. Dreamin about Iron.......................
Sorry ncbschzzt, I asked for the pics of the Hoe. Didn't mean to offend you. I'm curious what it is you are argueing about hard enough to start ridiculing people over. I know it makes me just want to run right out and buy myself one of them there Deere graders.
lol, I liked the ncBSchzzt, I thought it was clever.
I am not sure what you are talking about, what pics? Awe I just got it, I didn't know he was posting those pics for you until I went back and read into the thread further. I thought he was trying to explain his overwhelming experience to me. So for that I must apologize, thanks now I feel like an ass.
grading I'm not necessarily on a time limit. Sorry if it sounded like that. My point was that operational costs are extremely expensive now. That makes it critical to be as productive as possible. Being a government entity we have a fixed source of revenue (taxes). Nothing can be done to adjust the amount of revenue available for road maintenance. The only thing that can be adjusted is the cost of such maintenance. So as I mentioned earlier, if the quality of the end result is the same, doesn't it become an important issue to trim grader operational time anywhere it can be trimmed?? I.e., using rear steer to turn around versus pull up, back up, pull up, back up to finally make the turn with the chassis straight. Or running a tenth mile per hour faster. Or accomplishing the goal with minimum passes. Or purchasing a machine equipped in a manner that will increase operational efficiency such as with radial tires. Cruising along in a slower gear enjoying the weather and scenary isn't what the taxpayer expects to purchase with his donated revenue. If the operational cost of my machine is $1 per minute, and I think that's pretty accurate, who pays the $1 for the extra minute it takes me to turn around because I don't like to use rear steer??? I wouldn't comment on another townships decision to hire or fire an operator. That's what the Board of Directors is for. I'm just a lowly operator. The elderly operator is just like any of us would be with 40 years of operational experience under our belt on our 80th birthday. As for potholes, that totally depends on how bad they are. Small potholes can be filled with damp material and usually repaired. Larger potholes or during times of dry weather have to be ripped out. I use my scarifier for that. Usually potholes are clustered so I rip the entire area to the depth of the bottom of the deepest holes. Then I crumb the material with repeated passes, forward and backward, reshaping the area and packing the material. The only time that doesn't work is if you get a large rain right after completion. This past year our weather has been very hard on roads with excessive snow last winter and excessive rain this summer. We've got our normal annual rainfall already. Potholes have been a struggle but we are now beginning to get them under control. As you said, to get back on point here. I believe it's an important issue with any new piece of equipment to be concerned about how efficient that equipment is. How is it on fuel? How fast will it efficiently grade? How easily can it be turned around? At the end of the day will it impress me with the amount of work it can accomplish?? I have a positive attitude about our Deere. I'm very anxious to hear Steve's opinions as he gets used to his Cat. He ran it for the first time yesterday but I didn't get a chance to visit with him. I'll give him a week of running and then see what he thinks. Hopefully we can add operational opinions to this thread as time goes along.
I would really love to try one of these new machines as I'm really curious as to how fast I could grade. Any machine that I've operated so far it was slow or you would get washboards. Tryed different tire pressure etc but couldn't go fast. Would someone in cyber space please send me one of these new fangled graders so I can prove myself wrong?? I'm beggin here :crying
:notworthy EXPECTO PATRONUM! poof Ok; go look in your backyard. Opps; I screwed up the spell and sent you a Fiat Allis with front articulation. G4ME.. I'll respond with some more serious thoughts when I get home, I'm still at work and getting ready to peel.................... Regards, Randy
Lol...take it back!!
graders One more thing worth commenting on. Graders have modernized at an alarming rate over the past ten years or so. The productivity has increased dramatically. Technology is accelerating and making those improvements come even quicker. Twenty years ago no Cat operator would have said the M model was even possible. Deere was in it's development stage and going thru growth pains. Not sure where Volvo and the other companies were then. I know in our area Champion was around but considered very crude. Evidence of how far this has gone is when we get together on forums like this and offer our opinions. It becomes critical to know what I'm operating to be able to understand my comments. I am blessed with new equipment. I've only operated one grader that had more than 3K hours on it and that was nineteen years ago. Because I'm operating the latest/greatest that offers maximum efficiency for the times it becomes critical to be an efficient operator and utilize those technological advances to the maximum. That's what my taxpayers are spending their money to receive. They don't want to see a new grader being operated in a twenty year old fashion. They appreciate my diligence and speed especially when we get a heavy snow and in the middle of the night they hear that new Deere haul butt past their house slinging snow. Gives them comfort. That's how it should be. I'm not picking on anyone or trying to start an argument. Just making some points. Mostly pointing out that each of us comes from a different situation. How we each operate our machines is a reflection of that history. I enjoy reading posts to see if someone has developed an operational manner that would make me a better operator to adapt it. Grader4me, you come to Missouri and I'll let you run our Deere anytime you want. I'm sure Steve would also let you get some seat time in their M model. You could get two opportunities in one trip!!!
I'm starting to feel like the bad guy here. I really don't mean to give you a hard time as I thoroughly enjoy your posts. You're very knowledgeable and seem to know your stuff. I can only relate as to what I've have experience with. Plowing snow? We agree! petal to the metal time. I'm not familiar with your grader so really I shouldn't argue about how fast you can go when grading. I'm just having a hard time (based on experience) to believe that speed can produce the same results when grading. But...I'm going to give in and say okay I believe you. See? I'm not so bad eh? Love to come down that way!
ovrszd I wish some of our local council operators down under had an attitude like yours. 9 times out of 10 they are given the newest gear available and operate the machines like they would something 30 years old. Also they only do that about 5 hours a day!! If we as contractors were to operate the same way we would be out of work and broke in no time.
I wouldn't know grader operating from a cow's butt......but when talking speed I would have thought the newer technology would help the machine/operator acheive the result "faster" with less movements (passes); as opposed to actually operating at higher "speed". This maybe more so with the integrated Laser/GPS equipment but surely these new machines are more compatible and able to work with this technology bettera???. I recently went out to an airport development and one operator there was telling me he could set his M up (Accugrade) and grade the roadbase in 3 passes, 1 to put the material where he wanted, 2 to run it to grade and a third pass on fine trim "just to make it look good" . He said it was so easy that even a government worker could do it.....
Oh I agree fully that with this new technology you will be able to achieve finish results with less passes as the Laser/GPS takes the operator error out of the mix....but it depends on what you are doing. Grading roads for example takes an X number of passes to complete..doesn't matter if you have most advanced grader in the world. A moldboard is only so wide. So with the new graders speed when grading is the answer...I guess.. I've graded roads just making 3 or 4 passes (depends on the width) and you can cover alot of ground in a day. The big thing about grading is you want your job to last. I can go grade a road with the 3 passes filling in the potholes with material. Get a couple of days rain or a lot of traffic then I'm back at it again. I personally like to cut the whole road taking out the potholes instead of filling them in. Then after a lot of traffic and rain my road is still holding up. So what way would make more sense if we are talking about getting the most bang for your buck? Easssyyyy....
We are in a large council area and not far from us us is sort of a boundary where the grader from the north comes to and then another grader comes up from the south grading the council roads. I know the operators on the northern grader and they do a pretty good job. They cut the road one way and then grade the fill back over filling the potholes as they go. The grader from the south barely scrapes the road and in a lot of places there is very little to grade and then he only does one pass so when he has finished, the potholes are still there and the road gradually hollows out in the middle. All in the same council area. What really annoys me is when he finishes a run sometimes he comes out on to a sealed road and he turns hard on the lock, front wheels and artic so that on all the sealed roads where he has been there are two black marks where he has turned. I just wonder what that does to the machine. I am not sure that I am qualified to even comment here, but here goes and if I get shot down in flames, so be it. At the best I would describe myself as a bush grader operator operating mechanical Allis Chalmers, Cat 12E, Komatsu amd Champion. The Champion is our current grader and while I have seen some fairly derrogatory remarks on the forum about Champion graders, it is a good old bush grader for us at this point in time. Speed in grading I think comes down to the operator and the job he is on at the time. I don't think the machine plays a huge part in it. Take aside lasers etc. the only other areas where the new machines will be faster is that they will be quicker turning and manouvering and have faster hydraulics for setting yourself up for the next run. On the actual job and here I am talking straight forward grading, roads, levelling etc. and experienced operator would grade as fast as on an older machine as he would on a newer one. By experience I don't only mean operating the machine, but also reading the job and placing the maximum amount of material in the right place with the least amount of passes. Some jobs where you are reeling windrows out of the way or running them right out, you can go as fast as you have power to push it. For final trimming or finishing roads you need to go much slower and I think a good operator will get the job done in a similar amount of time, no matter what machine he has. If they can stop the new machines from bouncing at speed, well then they will have a distinct advantage over the older machines.
grading Now this is good discussion!!! Worldwide discussion actually!!! First I want to comment on a few things that's not been clarified by anyone. Road width. Material type. Yearly rainfall. Traffic volume. Second I want to also clarify that 90% of the comments in this thread have been about stone road maintenance. Speed, use or lack of use of certain ammenities, accuracy of laser guided systems, etc., have different affects when doing final grade on a construction project for example. Not that they aren't important, just that how fast a grader is operated when doing a laser guided finish pass for a parking lot has nothing to do with how fast I go when grading a gravel road. In my case most of my roadbeds are near 24 foot width. Material is crushed limestone spread on mostly clay soil. Our yearly rainfall average is 35". Traffic volume on my roads varies from a couple vehicles a day to a vehicle every couple minutes. Varies from light car traffic to large agricultural equipment and trucks. In my 48 miles of roads I see a large variance in material type because of soil type changes. These changes have to be adjusted to when grading them. In some instances I may be moving so little material that a third pass isn't even required. Then the next road may need massive work and a lot of material moved. One issue we fight this time of year is vegetation growing out into the gravel. If it's not dealt with on the less travelled roads you end up with a one lane path. So now I'm moving a lot of material and doing minimal resurfacing to the roadbed, just killing weeds. In my case I very rarely dislodge the roadbed as mentioned by Grader4me. We don't have the luxury of having elevated roadbeds with massive amounts of gravel covering the dirt. If I cut to the bottom of a pothole I've cut completely thru my roadbed and now have a dirt road with a bunch of loose gravel. So that's why I fix potholes individually. I'll try to take a couple pictures of our roadbeds for comparison. In the beginning of this discussion I talked more than once about the end result when grading. I talked of equal quality of that end result and always used that as a standard when talking about speed, number of passes, etc. With that being clarified once again, if you need to run 3 mph and make seven passes to get that end result, then that's what you should do. That's what I would do also when grading under those conditions. If, on the other hand, you can run 7 mph and make three passes to get that end result, then that's what you shoud do. What I don't like to see is a tax supported grader running 3 mph and making a gazillion passes just because the operator doesn't like to go any faster. Or a tax supported operator turning around without using rear steer just because he doesn't understand how to use it. In those cases I believe the taxpayer is being cheated. As for new machines speeding up the process. Most definitely. No doubt about that. If not, why would there be new designs?? We would all still be running rigid framed, gear operated, stand up graders. A simple example of speed gain would be the weight/power of a new machine. My machine will cut a swath in a solid roadbed in one pass that a thirty year old machine could not cut at all. Finally, nothing I say in this discussion is a slam on anyone participating. It's also not a slam on anyone's equipment, run what ya brung. As I said above, good discussion!!! I'm especially interested in hearing comments from operators in other parts of the world. I know they are dealing with totally different weather and soil conditions than I. :usa
Not to sound slow, but what happens when you're working and it starts to hail? I see Cat has gone with the steel roof with no insulating. Is it also a cold cab? I wanna know. Sorry, don't answer that, I'm talking about the TLBs.
Well said ovrszd I think many of us would agree that all jobs will have certain differences and require different techniques.This being said I think that when we are talking about road maintenence (grading gravel roads)there are many things that will change the way you do the job.Where I work the major problem is grass and moisture, it is usually 6ft high both sides of the road with a single track down the middle:Banghead impossible to handle unless you get rid of it before you start.Once the grass has gone you can then do something with the road,just keep in mind that the gravel is usually as dry as a wooden god and very dusty.So the less you handle the material the better the job will be at the end.Out here our potholes are sometimes up to a foot deep to grade those suckers out you would end up with a big windrow of bulldust!Not much chop.In an ideal world we would have a multi roller and water truck on hand and we could turn that road into a brand new one. In the end you can only do what you can do and as long as you are doing your best with the gear you have then nobody can ask any questions.
Ovrszd I reallylike the discussion now, everything you have said about grading gravel and dirt is exactly the conditions and problems that I have. I also run a tax funded machine, where every tax payer thinks they are your boss and knows how to grade better than I do!So all the points brought up here now I am just sitting here nodding in agreement. I usually make only 2 passes on a 24ft roadtop, and will do sometimes 3 but that takes extra time to do and my grass and weeds on the edge of the road just will not stop growing when I want...(I know that everyone is nodding there head now!!) So what I do is pick up my gravel from the side I last graded the road on and then I cut the road by moving the gravel on the edge towards the center.What I am saying is my moldboard closest to the shoulder will be cutting about half of the blade width - then it spreads the gravel for the other half just up to the crown in the road.This is my 1 pass only.The 2 pass I will put my wheels on the center on the road(I forgot to say that I always run my back tandem wheels on the centerline every time I am blading to keep a crown and to make a straight lines...) so anyways the 2 pass I will cut( very lightly, just scraping the crown to half of the moldboard width then ispread the other half over to the shoulder.So the will look like this------ cut then spread---center of road---cut and spread Does this make sense to anyone or are you all glazed over by now? The reason I usually only make 2 passes is that I have alot of miles to cover( over 300 in summer and cannot afford to tend to just gravel as I have alot of dirt/sand/clay!( with alot of grass to play with..) Great discusion about grading techniques might have to start a new thread right Ovrszd!! I have been really busy this past while but got some pics of my VOLVO for you all and will put them on this week so we can compare the DEERE and the CAT to it! Now lets get back to the argueing....I mean discussions!!!:jerry :canada
Grass and growth along gravel roads seem to be a universal problem. You don't have to wait many days from the snow has gone to the grass just poops up along the roads all over. When it becomes to much i do a pass where i grade inn the grass from the shoulder, sometimes i take a good cut down into the ditch. Thats to get the gravel up onto the shoulder. Next pass i grade this windrow with grass and all into the middle of the road. How far into the middle, depends on the width of the road. At this second pass i use my windrow blade at the back. It is fitted with serrated blades, and reach outside the windrow on the left side. On the right side it goes all the way out to the ditch. When i use the windrow spreader i have it adjusted so it lays out the windrow apr half of the road to get a proper crown.(according to road width) The nice thing is that objects bigger than the serrated "slots" is rolled along the blade, and ends down the ditch again. Thats all the grassrots, stones, sticks and other nasty stuff that gets up from the ditch at first pass. If the grass has been growing to long, for years, some of the roots get real big and i need to do more passes to get the gravel out of them. For the normal maintenance i normaly do one pass. Cut from the outside and in, and the gravelspreader takes care of the crown/windrow and lays it nice out from the middle and out. Takes some time to adjust the spreader correctly, but when its ok i just watch it in the mirrors and on the tv screen. If there are bigger potholes i go on and add more pressure/a bigger cut with the joysticks. I normaly grade by the constantpressure system, where i have adjusted the pressure to get a cut good/big enough for the "average" pothole depths.
I have no problem with Champion Graders. One that I had (mentioned this many times) a 1977 Champion was a POS. Mainly because it was underpowered and always breaking down... always. I agree with what you are saying in your post. See? Again I'm in agreement. Therapy is helping... On edit..When I'm shaping a road for chipseal it's first gear people. Yes, you heard me right...first gear
I ran a series 3, 740a for almost ten years. the only problem we had was that the Transmission had to be rebuilt a year after we got it. Other than that, it was a good machine. I Dragged roads in the spring, finished base for ashpalt in the summer and monted a wing and plow in the winter, and worked on the Trans Canada Highway and provincial roads. it never let me down. I managed to put 10 000 k on it one winter alone. it was a good machine when the temperature dropped, (-20, to -40) I wonder how the new M does in the cold.
Even better said Billy!!! I thought for a second you might be from Missouri til I looked at your info. Sounds like we fight the same problems. My potholes don't get that deep, usually only a few inches and 12-24 inches across. But as you said, I can't cut them out with the moldboard without destroying my roadbed. Not sure if you have a scarifier?? I love mine for potholes. Also use my scarifier when replacing a tube by ripping the gravel bed up and pushing it out of the way before getting into the dirt. That leaves me with good gravel material to put back on top when I'm done. In the case of a shallow, small tube I can replace it without having to purchase new gravel or hire a backhoe. Again, well said. I'm amazed at how similar our conditions are in opposite ends of the Earth. Sometimes this time of year I have trouble seeing the leading end of the moldboard because of dust when I'm making my first two passes, depending on the breeze. I always hate grading past houses now because of the dust I create. If the road is in good shape in front of a house I'll lift my blade and go on by without creating more dust. Also slow down when making my final pass as I go by to not dust them anymore than necessary. Oh, also calling it bulldust is perfect!!!
Volvo Roadrunner, I'm very anxious to see pics of the Volvo. I'm also enjoying the discussion about grading techniques. I think we have a great gathering of gravel roadbed operators here right now so certainly don't see a need to start a new thread. I've never tried your two pass technique. If I understand this correctly you are moving your material from one side of the roadbed to the other shaping and filling as you go?? I also understand keeping the rear of the grader straddling the crown when using this method so you have a reference so you don't misshape your roadbed. I'll have to try that now since I've got my grass/weeds cut loose and lying along the roadside. When it dries enough I'll try just using two passes to move the trash to the other side and hopefully drop the gravel out of it on the way. Lastly, 300 miles of roads to grade!!! Holy Cow!!! That's definitely a fulltime job!!! In my case it's just parttime work for me. I call it therapy. I work daily for the Army as a civilian and am in the Army Reserves. Grading is where I ground my sanity. No phone calls, emails, faxes and/or stupid people!!! Heheheheh.
grading Man I wish you were closer to me!!! I would so love to run your pressure sensitive system and try out your gravelspreader!!!
This certainly is an interesting thread. I am quite pleased to hear that there are a few Champion operators out there. I do know there were some reliability problems with them down here as well. Getting back to the topic, the biggest problem with our rural roads here is that there is nothing left to grade. Any gravel that they had on them has powdered up and they are virtually back to the dirt base. The only place you can make material is to cut the shoulder down slightly but I find there is always a small ridge that the traffic pushes up through normal road wear just in from the shoulder, and if you cut that ridge out it is suprising how much material you generate. That is where the old Champion is good because it is fairly heavy and puts the power on the ground really well. The council operators seldom cut that ridge out, so occassionally when I get that p/o'd with the potholes, because our trucks are on this road nearly every day (about 4km) I will give the road a good cut and then bring the material back to fill the potholes. The problem with the council graders is that for economic reasons they buy Cat 120's with 14' blades for patrol grading and I think they are just not heavy enough to cut the ridge out. You can often see the washboard effect where the grader has bounced. Do any of you pull rollers at all? Here they sometimes pull a combinination roller and they also have a couple of graders fitted with a Freeroll. This is a row of compactor tyres on a roller fitted in place of the rear rippers and they apply downward hydraulic pressure when rolling. The rollers do work well when the material is damp. I would be interested to hear more about the Volvo graders considering that Volvo bought Champion out and what about Komatsu graders, I don't think I have seen them mentioned anywhere on the forum. We had a GD625A for a few years and it was a fantastic grader but we sold it because things were a bit tight and the Champion is handling our work at the moment. Rn'R.
grading I hear that!!! That's why I wanted to clarify the type of grading I was talking about. There's certainly a place for 1st gear speed, that's why they built it into the machine!!!
grading I agree, I want to hear more about both of those brands. I'm especially interested in the Volvo joystick system since now it's becoming popular with CAT and DEERE. We just don't have any Volvo graders around here. I've only saw one and it was on a trailer travelling down the hiway.
In the next few months, I am getting conflicting reports. However I will try and get more info today.
Here is some pics and description about the Volvo joysticks: I have to say that this servo system is a aftermarket addon for the Scandinavian market. It is developed from the electronic system that controls steelwrists in Scandinavia.(not steelwrist as producer, but same systems) Everybody got those on their excavators, so the electronic system has been on the marked for some years. Our grader system is two excavator joysticks, with two brains controlling all the functions on the grader. Volvo Canada has tested this system, but as long as the customers all over dont demand it, it will be a Scandinavian speciality. Tell me what u want to know and ill find some pics and explain..
Volvo Thanks MKTEF for the link. That's what I was looking for. If I ever get a chance to watch or run a Volvo I'll certainly take advantage of it.
Grading techniques. Hi, Folks. I've seen this thread before and have read bits and pieces of it from time to time but haven't posted earlier due to lack of time. I too am interested in the different techniques and the similarities of the problems faced in widely differing parts of the world. I too have had problems with grass and other vegetation on road shoulders. Depending on the situation and the available equipment, I would either have to windrow it in from the edge for a TLB to pick up and load out on trucks or grade it off outside the table drain to allow access to some relatively clean gravel from the shoulder to cut across the road AND back again. On most of the gravel road maintenance that I have done, corrugations were a more common problem than potholes. Some of these corrugations might be 4" - 5" deep, depending on volume and type of traffic, material in the roadbed, recent weather conditions and elapsed time since the last grading. Most common corrugation range would have been 3" - 4" deep. It didn't take long to realise that a simple once-over didn't last very long, especially in the deeper corrugations, in relation to the time taken to do the job. I found that the bigger corrugations needed twice-over, grading the material back across the road and travelling in the same directions on the second time over as the first time for each pass but with the blade angled the opposite way. This involved travelling empty from one end to the other after completing the first cut over so that I could have the blade angled the opposite way for the second cut. This seemed to do a better job of cutting the tops off the corrugations and filling the bottoms than simply turning around and grading the material back across the road and the end resulted lasted better too. I might add that having any sort of roller was a definite luxury. One place where this system REALLY did pay off was a couple of stretches of the access road on the Mount Newman Railway Project in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. The local 'soil' looked like a coarse sand but was in fact eroded quartz. It packed down pretty hard and was extremely abrasive. If you tried to cut it without first scarifying it, you could rip a set of cutting edges to shreds in 7 - 8 hours. You could also do a fair bit of 'damage' to a set of scarifier boots when scarifying it. The trick was to pull a windrow out of the bank on one side, grade it across the road, then travel empty back to the other end, pick up the same windrow plus a bit more and grade it back again, filling the corrugations rather than trying to cut them. One operator, unused to this material and working night shift, wore a set of cutting edges from about 60% remaining down to half the bolt-holes gone and NO cutting edges in less than a 10 hour shift, all through trying to cut these corrugations - after having been told not to and why. The rail formation in these areas was built with scrapers. This material was murder on the scraper cutting edges too. Thank God there was only about 40 - 45 miles of this country out of a total of about 270 miles of railway line. Let the exchange continue.