Been working on my 160clc Just went through the whole machine this spring, used it around the shop to dig a bit, and had it working great. The hydraulics were a bit slow on the main lift at the end of the winter and I did a pump setup as per the manual when we got it back and it has never worked so darn good. Pulled it into the shop to finish it up, did a few nuts and bolts, went to pull it out, and the hydraulics put a crazy load on the engine. You can stall it with the main boom, and the dipper. They seem to get real hot real fast. Oddly enough not at the pump, the pump isn't as hot as the reservoir. The only other thing was the batteries died before we pulled it in. Not sure what difference that would make. I plugged it into the mpdr and it shows no codes, and I don't see anything out of the ordinary? No flashing light on the dash for engine codes.
What are the Pump1 and Pump2 delivery pressures with arm in function over relief at full engine speed ? Also what is the engine speed in P mode with throttle dial at max position with no load ?
A good place to start would be to check the system relief setting. If the system relief is set to high or not opening the circuit reliefs will open and that will cause the overheating issue and excessive engine pulldown since pump discharge ( high flow ) instead of load sense pressure ( very low flow ) is regulating the pressure. The pressure on the boom, arm, bucket and propel should all be the same. ( 4,950psi / 34.2mpa ) The circuit reliefs on those functions are set 500psi or so higher than the system relief setting. The swing crossover reliefs are set 500-600psi lower than system pressure for smoother starting and stopping and the auxiliary pressure should be set for the attachment being used. You might want to go through the pump regulator adjustment again and make sure the individual pump pulldown is correct. If you have a 2'' or so bucket pin you can put between the sprockets and the track frame so you can stall the tracks one at a time and both together it's easier to set the individual pump pulldown ( horsepower regulator ) than using the swing and bucket for individual adjustments. I don't have the exact numbers but individual pump pulldown shouldn't be over 125rpms less than high idle and combined pulldown shouldn't be over 200rpms less than high idle. I hope this helps. Those pumps are pretty finicky and will cause heating issues if the HP adjustments are to aggressive.
It may be set high, I will go back through. I also already did a adjustment on the main relief, but it's worth going back to and redoing. I may take it out and inspect it while I'm at it. I had a hard time getting the tracks to track straight with the engine pulldown. I ended up not exactly setting it by rpm pulldown, and more until the tracks felt good, and had appropriate pulldown. Right now it's on both sides of the pump. I first thought I could have been having a problem with one of the adjustments on the pump, but both tracks almost stall the engine. One thing I noticed is there's no lag between pulling the lever and the fast movement. Normally if I pull the main lift, the hydraulics start slow, the engine revs, and it speeds up to full speed (almost all at once) It seems like the second I pull the lever to full the hydraulics are wide open, there's no lag, and it stalls the engine. Almost as if the pumps are both stroking really fast, or already at full stroke.
So this morning I checked the system pressure, something like 35mpa I then disassembled and inspected the system relief and saw no issues, I then adjusted it downward, and brought the system pressure down to 25mpa Still have the same issue. I can slowly pull a lever and the engine will stay running, but if I pull a lever fast it will kill it. I also dialed back the engine pulldown screws on the pump a half turn (as I assume I'm going to have to do a full pump setup anyways)
35 mpa is right on spec. The way you describe the problem as only appeared when finishing up some odds and ends, sounds like the engine is suddenly down on horespower. Any chance a hose split/ cracked before or after the intercooler ? or fuel supply hose from fuel tank got pinched ? If push comes to shove, a turbo boost pressure test would prove if the engine is down on power or not.
Anything is possible. Last time I had a air loss problem it blew black smoke like wild. Doesn't seem to have that issue. But not saying I couldn't have any other versions of hp issue. I checked the fuel pressure at the filter head. It seems good. I run a electric lift pump, it's brand new aswell. The only thing that was really odd was after the batteries died, I boosted it. And the rpm dial would not work. I charged the batteries and started it up, worked fine. Checked the voltage at the fuse panel, have 28v
Would there be any test, that would say steer me in the direction of the engine or the pump?
A failed Turbo boost pressure test would indicate low engine horsepower. See procedure in 2 screenshots below. Before doing the test be sure to adjust the main relief back to the original setting of 35 mpa. . .
Today I had another quick look, think I made some headway. I tied a boost gauge into the cab, although all I had on hand was the tiny hose from the ether injector, it may not be very accurate but I was able to steadily read about 9lbs on the gauge any time I could feather the hydraulics to not stall the engine. Somehow in reading and staring at the pressures again I stumbled upon that the number 2 on the screen (pump one pressure) reads higher than pump 2 with the pilots on. About 500 psi, the same psi as the pilot pressure. (Both 1.1 with pilots off. 3 or something on just pump 1 with pilots on) I looked to see what ties directly from the pilot to the pump thinking I could be having some type of crossover from my main pump to pilot pump, and the speed sense solenoid is right there. I removed, disassembled and cleaned it. Reinstalled with no change. I disconnected it, and the machine works what seems like perfectly. Fast, smooth revs up when it's supposed to, seems to work flawless. I tested, has 28v across the terminals. Ohms read the same as the valve beside it. I don't see continuity to ground with the key off. I'm Done for the day on it now. But I think that's another step forward. Either both sides should go up with the pilot pressure engaged, or both should stay low is my thought. Here's a quick video of what I'm talking about.
Sounds like the pumps may be staying on high pressure all the time. Since you just did a pump setup, I'd double-check the pump control settings, pressure sensors, and any solenoids involved in pump regulation. If the boom and dipper are loading the engine hard and heating the oil fast, something could be causing the system to deadhead or stroke the pumps fully. The dead batteries might have reset a calibration or exposed an electrical issue, but I'd start with pump control and pilot pressure checks. No codes doesn't always mean everything is happy.
Right. I also have no codes on the mpdr as in the photo. I will pull the access panel and check manually with the blinking light on the PVC controller. maube it does have codes and I'm not seeing them on the laptop.
At 9 psi boost sounds like the engine horsepower is ok. When you performed the Pump regulator adjustment-engine pull down procedure did you follow as written in the Operation and test manual TM1932 ?
You should be able to see the speed sense solenoid valve output pressure (item #27) with the laptop shown in screenshot below. As the engine is pulling down and attempting to stall, the PVC decreases the voltage to the speed sense solenoid coil and the speed sense valve output pressure increases to what I would think would be approximately 250- 350 psi. You could confirm the laptop data with a guage teed into the solenoid valve output hose.
Yes I have that manual and followed it. But wondering if the speed sense was acting up off and on at the time, causing it hard to dial in the pulldown. I will have to go back and redo it, after I figure out what's happening with the speed sense. I never looked at the speed sense on my program but I will go back and check to see what I can see on Monday. I had an old hitachi, any problems with the wiring or the pump sensors and it would go to full stroke. Is the Deere the same way?
I would like to make a suggestion. Go back and adjust the individual pulldowns. Set them closer to the 2050 rpm rather than the 2030 rpm. Definitely adjust them by stalling tracks and not using the bucket/swing. Then ignore the combined stall adjustment. Does the machine still want to stall after those adjustments are made?
I would have to do it with the speed valve unplugged or any time I pull a lever it will completely stall the engine. Or are you suggesting dial them back until it works with the speed valve plugged in?
To add to this. It did work great for a couple of days of work after the pump setup.
Yes, I would dial them out and start over. If it stalls with them dialed out, then there is another issue that needs to be determined.
I dialed them out and started over. With the speed solenoid plugged in, and the tracks pinned. Even with the screws way out, it puts lots of load on the engine. I set them to where I pull the lever and it would bog down and kinda settle back up to the 2050. With the sensor unplugged I can get it to just run right to 2050 steady as can be. With the sensor plugged in, and the pulldown set to 2050 with the tracks pinned, I can run it for 10 minutes and the hydraulics are screaming hot. It performs terrible. I pulled the panel behind the seat, and checked the controller for blinking red light codes. When I first jumped the wire it started flashing code numbers before I was ready to read them. I think it flashed every code in the book. I shut it off and tried again, can't get any codes out of it. Ran it for a while , still can't get any codes. Flashes red, attach the jumper just goes blank. I went back through and looked at every sensor on the diagnostic and they all seem to be reading ( changing up and down anyways not sure of a baseline)
See the speed sense solenoid (Y5) valve operation from the manual in screenshot below. Suggest to monitor the speed sense solenoid signal to the two pump regulators by tee in a guage at the speed solenoid outlet port hose. .
Okay. And what should I see in this test? Pilot pressure decreasing as engine rpm pulls down?
As a load on the engine increases, the speed difference between target and actual engine speed becomes less. The pump and valve controller decreases the voltage to the speed sensing solenoid valve which increases the speed sensing pilot oil pressure to the load piston.
So the pressure on the gauge should go UP as the voltage goes DOWN? I should have 28v no load and theoretically 0v at full stall load? I will get the stuff at the hydraulic shop to do that test. Today I was able to see codes on the mpdr. Program Again it had every code imaginable. 10 codes in total. I should have wrote them down, the first code was for one of the pressure sensors, so I reverted back to monitor mode to see if it was working, and it was, then back to the fault codes and they were gone? I'm wondering if I'm having an issue with the PVC controller communicating the fault codes?
If and when the codes return , post them all.
Sounds like the pumps may be staying at full stroke or the destroke/control circuit isn't working. If it was fine before and suddenly started loading the engine that hard, I'd be checking pilot pressure, pump control solenoids, and any wiring/connectors that may have gotten disturbed while it was in the shop. The fact the tank gets hot fast points to hydraulic oil bypassing somewhere and generating a lot of heat. I'd also verify the pump setup values didn't get lost when the batteries went dead, although I'd expect a code if that happened. No codes makes me lean more toward a hydraulic control issue than an electrical one.
Technically no. The voltage varies. You most likely will be reading an average voltage at that moment in time. The speed sense solenoid is a proportional solenoid, and under most conditions, is always activated to some degree.
The pumps definitely stroke and destroke, as they change based on whether or not the solenoids plugged in. I will check the hydraulic output of the solenoid like was mentioned before. But I'm leaning onto it being an electrical/sensor issue. We had some welding done on the attachment at the end of the stick when it was inside. Hoping that didn't cause eronious issues with the PVC controller
So, I attached a gauge on the output of the speed solenoid. The gauge starts at zero or low when functioning. When the machine attempts to stall, the gauge goes to up. When it's unplugged it stays at maximum. So I assume it is working. When doing so I noticed the engine rpm on the dash reads almost 2300. It's never read that high before in the years I have owned the machine, when I set the pump up before I almost want to say it read something like 2250 at wot in hp mode. I reset the pulldown to closer to 2100, as was previously mentioned by ohdeereme around 125 rpm drop individually with the tracks stalled, and it works the way it should. Somehow I believe my speed reference on the machine has changed. I'm assuming with the loss of battery power. I've never had that happen before. I'm also unsure of the switch behind the seat and how it works. I checked the voltage on the speed dial and it reads within spec.
Since the speed solenoid outlet pressure is changing now, I would be careful about condemning the pump, main valve, or relief valve until the electrical reference side is nailed down. From a parts/replacement point of view, the part that would make me nervous is the behavior changing after the batteries went dead and after welding was done at the end of the stick. Before buying hydraulic parts, I would want a written baseline of: - actual engine rpm checked with an independent tach, compared with the dash/MPDR reading - battery voltage and charging voltage while operating a function - ground straps and battery/frame/engine/cab/PVC grounds, especially if the welder ground clamp location was not ideal - PVC plugs and pins for the speed dial, engine speed sensor, pressure sensors, and speed sense solenoid: loose pins, corrosion, stretched wires, or a connector not fully seated - all fault codes written down before they clear, even if they disappear after switching screens - speed solenoid outlet pressure noted at no load, slow lever movement, fast lever movement, and track stall, next to actual rpm For reference, this is the kind of evidence checklist I mean when checking a main control valve before ordering one: https://primaexcavator.com/how-shou...ain-control-valve-before-ordering-from-china/ If the hydraulic side is following the electrical command but the controller thinks engine speed is different from reality, changing a main control valve or pump parts could get expensive without touching the cause.
The “engine speed learning“ switch is not applicable on the 160CLC. From the manual below. “The machine has an engine learning switch like the previous models. The engine learning switch cannot be used to change the default engine speeds and must remain in the middle position. The engine rpm dial may not change engine speeds if the engine learning switch is not in middle position.” . With the speed dial at max , What’s the engine speed in P mode and HP mode ? What is engine speed in HP mode with arm in over releif ?
A simple test is to back probe any sensor at the positive terminal and monitor the 5 volt power supply to see if it stays constant when acting up. You mentioned many fault codes than they are clearing out if the 5 volt power supply gets interrupted that sometimes can generate a code for each sensor. It only takes one little strand of wire to ground out and kill or decrease the 5 volts. Or a bad connection or faulty PVC.
The max rpm is 2300. Like I stated before it's never been nearly that high, it sounds the exact same as before just says higher on the dash. The arm over relief droops down to 2080, then climbs instantly to 2150 and stays there. And as mentioned previously, it appears to be working properly with the speed sense solenoid plugged in, and not making excessive heat, I used it today for hours on end without any issues. I'm not certain the codes weren't from me messing around. But I will tie into the 5v on the system moving forward with any other issues. It had every sensor code imaginable when I read it. That's a very likely culprit indeed
All I was trying to determine with the engine speed inquiry was if HP mode over relief was actually working. Sounds like it is , so good stuff !