Serial number 47A3829 The machine sat over the winter. Had to add 5 gallons of coolant to top it off. There is a film of oil on the top of the coolant. It has the D339 low horse engine. Where do I start looking? I already cracked the drain plug on engine before i started it to find no coolant in oil. Thanks
Could be prechamber leaking or bad ead gasket
Oil coolers?
Are you the only guy that checks the coolant in this unit in case someone used a dirty oily funnel to fill. Try soaking up the oil with a diaper for oil rolled in a circle and taped up for safety and put into the top to soak up as much as possible. Depends on how much is there. Has any previous work been done that could of had some oil residue that washed out. Oil coolers and precumbustion chambers are suspect along with head gaskets. You have already checked the oil at the bottom of the pan. Some times you have to run it some till it gets worse. I have done oil coolers in the past that passed every pressure test, but failed under heat and vibration. Sometimes you have to wait untill it starts to get worse. A pressure test will sometimes reveal with precumbustion chambers if they leak upwards. Question is it cumbustion gasses or engine oil or transmission oil in the radiator. Sometimes hard to tell. Simon C
I think your last statement Simon is correct, thanks for this. We looked at it again and it seems like combusted fuel. The book shows a gasket at the bottom of the precombustion chamber that keeps combustion gases from getting into the coolant. If it's similar to my Komatsu D57S that gasket might be a big copper washer. I guess I'll drain the coolant down and pop the hood and side covers off and see if I can put some new gashes in my skull. Ill get some pics for all to see what I've gotten myself into.
Here is what the book says in the precups.
That pre-cup removal tool has a Caterpillar number. I have 3 diferent ones from Cat if that is in fact the tool they use to remove. I would wipe the inside out of rad till you see no oil residue and then do a run to see if it was a long time build up or short run accumulation. Of course I am not there and maybe it is leaking heavy. Let me know if any questions. Simon C
Simon. Can do. I'm not sure where the coolant went over the winter sitting. It ran for less than an hour after i topped it up. Maybe the guys over at ACMOC would know the tool to use. I'll keep you posted.
Got the hood off. I’m going to have to clean off the top before we go any further. I’m not familiar with this engine. It’s as old as me. (63)
Sorry, turning 62 this year.
those are newer chambers they are only one piece 5f8353 is all you need I think that is the right tool number
Thanks Pittsburgh cat man. What’s the little plug fitting on the lower side of the second pic? Glow plug hole?
Yes that a dummy plug they were used for pony start engines that didn't use glow plugs. One other thing they make different thickness gaskets so you can keep the dummy or the glow plug away from fuel line
I wonder why the glow plug holes were not used for glow plugs as I have seen Indirect injection engines changed out to direct injection, but they were using different style chambers. Have not worked on one of these for 40 years and was just a helper. Maybe the glow plugs were never used. Is there plugs in the other cylinders also. They have been in there for a long time by the cracks in the top o-ring. Simon C
Yes, they all have plugs. Not sure why the guy I got it from didn’t install a set. The gasket on 1 and 4 are cracked but 2 and 3 are not. Radiator is pressured up since I moved it over to shop. Leaking when I loosen cap abit.
Just double checking here. Is this the tool I need?
Looks like it
Warning there are different size splines and length of splines, I have 3 and all different sizes, have to go by the book for correct number. How much money is it? Simon C
That one was $13.00 US. I see all different ones on the net. Should I drain down coolant and take out one of these injectors to get a measurement of the threads and depth?
It is a spline and hard to measure. Just buy the correct part number from your picture of the precumbustion chamber ( 5F8353 ) and you should be good to go. I have one and it is bigger than the other 2 that Cat sells. Be carefull of one built too cheap, cause if it breaks in the hole big problem. Would bring you mine, but a days drive. Simon C
I’ll give Finning a call.
A Detroit 6-71 blower drive shaft works, did on my Dad’s 17A,
I ordered the tool and some new seals and gaskets for the pre-cups from Finning. Should be here on Thursday morning. I hope this will be as deep as I need to go into the dozer. I don't know if it will fit into shop as easy as the Komatsu D57S did. Till then........
Got the coolant drained down and pulled #4 pintle injector if that’s what you call it. Hopefully I get the right tool and parts from Finning on Thursday.
Cat calls them nozzles clean bottom and where seal goes and chamber too
Ok. Got the parts. Dumb question here. Does the prenup come out as a unit? And if it does are we loosening counter clockwise? I don’t want to wreck anything here. Thanks
Yes they are one piece, yes they are reg thread don't forget anti seize when you put it back in. They are tight getting loose. they should be torqued when you put them back in. I'm sorry i don't remember the torque
Thank you Pittsburgh cat man. I’ll get big snipe.
Ended up pulling the valve cover to make room to pull precup. I’m not an expert here so I’m not sure if this one is ok or not. I need advice here. I only pulled #4 so far.
It looks ok. unless you have really deep pits you are good. they are pretty thick
Thanks pittsburgh cat man. I guess I need to pull all to be sure. If I don't find anything I suppose the oil cooler is next in line? If all checks out what's next.......heads? I wonder if I should get back on the ACMOC site.
Question about the oil what color was it?
Make sure to buff top bore and lube before putting pre-cup in. Dont mix up the spacer under as they are a certain thickness to determine where the glow plug bore will be when you hit full torque. Simon C
sooty black colour. I think diesel.
Can do.
Found this on ACMOC. I had to take 2 headnuts off (4&5) to pull precup. Does it make sense to do one precup at a time retightening nuts as to not end up with head gasket leak?
I’m thinking loosening head bolts might cause you more problems than what you have now I think I would put that chamber back in retorque the bolts you had loose fill radiator to normal level and run it till it gets to temp then fill the radiator to the neck and check for bubbles in the coolant
The second pic in post #6 shows the tool with its part number for this dozer. I have S/N 47A3316. Five gallons of coolant is a lot to have to add - the system capacity is only 17 gallons. Was it full when parked for the winter? Do you have a leak anywhere that you can see?
Pre-combustion chamber torque is 200 ft-lbs. Your serial number would probably put your dozer's birth date in 1966.
No obvious leak externally.
There are no glow plugs on this unit just the dummy plugs.
The book says to tighten nozzle retaining nut to 105 lb ft. That seems really tight for such a small nut to me. It came off easy.
That’s the big nut going into chamber with o ring on it
Ok, thanks.
Got it running again. I don’t see any bubbles to speak of. Would it be throthing/pouring out?
It has to be up in neck otherwise they come out in top tank and you dont see them
You also have to run it long enough to open up the thermostats, so that the water is circulating fully thru the radiator.
Here is a better video. At low idle it starts to overflow. Rev it up and the level drops down.
The best set up is an extention that goes on top of the rad neck about a foot long. Then you can fill 2 inches above the top of the tank, block off the radiator to start warming it up.. There is room for antifreeze expansion and all the bubbles will go up the neck. It gives you a better idea of how much bubbles when the unit starts to get very hot. Simon C
We always had a rad cap with a hose fitting on it ran a hose into a jug of water to check compression in rad from what I see I don't think it's too bad for a old machine when rad is that full at idle it will usually will over flow a little when thermostat opens
Thanks for this.
If we get lots of bubbles…..what’s next?
Are you getting lots of bubbles? Did you change all the washers and o-rings on all the pre-combustion chambers (1 fiber washer and 2 o-rings each)?
Cumbustion gases in the radiator point to a crack in head or leak in the head gasket area that is allowing the cumbustion to enter the antifreeze circulating around the head and the Head to block gasket area. It can be caused by warped head, worn out gasket, loose liner meaning not enough liner projection and insufficient clamp down power. Block can be warped also. If it is not putting out too much some keep a close eye on it and fix when it gets too bad. A rad cap as pittsburg cat man stated with a spiggot on top for a clear hose to be attached would work good to see how much bubbles there is. They can be fixed properly, depends how much money or time a person has. Simon C
Hy guys, sorry to highjack your thread, but was reading it and it did not make much sense to me... i never seen a precup engine that can leak compression in coolant by the precup. Question? this precup CAT´s have coolant galeries around the precup? 8 out of 10 times compression leaks to radiador is the HG. good luck
It looks fine.
This Cat's pre-combustion chamber is surrounded by coolant. Three seals keep the combustion products out of the coolant.
Freakin strange design, living and learnin. Good luck to u all
I only pulled #4 precup. I put original spacer back in. I put a new o-ring on nozzle holder and seal on nozzle. The pictures on post #6 are the old style so are wrong in this case. The owner before me said he worked on the head or heads and may have installed them. I'm not sure though. I have to rig something up to elevate the coolant above the neck and heat it up a bit more like Simon C and pittsburgh cat man have suggested. I took a peek this morning at coolant in radiator to find no more sooty black film on top but we will see once I test again.
This is new to me also living and learning, thanks.
Got some bubbles
If while actuating some hydraulics it sends more bubbles into the cup, you have your answer. More load, rpm, heat will affect how much it leaks. Nice to be looking right over the cup while loading and try to load for like 60 seconds straight. It would give a better idea. I think you have a problem, question is what is causing and what will it cost to fix. Think the previous guy knew and didn't want to go there. Simon C
Trouble is it could get really expensive really quick! Probably should start by sealing all the chambers since that will probably be the cheapest thing to try. Take note if any chambers seem like they unscrew easier do not reuse the chamber gaskets on the bottom of chamber. They are a one time use thing
Thanks Simon C. I think I still can find his phone number somewhere. Just have to remember where? Ill get her going again tomorrow and put some load on her.
I wonder if the previous owner found insufficient liner projection and decided he was not going to get into a block repair. Thats what I wonder about. Simon C
I reused the gasket on # 4. I have the new ones one hand.
He said he had the head in machine shop and new head gasket. He may be a big fat liar.
I have seen too many times to count, new head , new gasket, but insufficient liner protrusion meaning the liner will move up and down and gasket leaks in no time. Not saying that is your problem, but be prepared if it is. Maybe the head is actually cracked and you dont know it. They can crack and leak only under heat. Maybe one of the other precups is the problem. Start simple. Simon C
That's why I said to note if any chambers come out easy they usually crack at chamber treads in head
Couldn't you just get someone to cut and shim them back up to spec?
Yes they can cut them
I have seen 1 apart and it was exactly 42 years ago. Some had to have the counter bores shimmed if that is your problem. It was a special guy with a boring bar setup if I recall. Simon C
I guess I won't know until take them all out to compare. I could feel the thick o-ring holding #4 back a bit but it seemed ok to me.
Actually the tooling to cut counter bores is pretty simple it bolts to block and turns by hand. You will know by how much it takes to get chamber started turning
Maybe it is only one one of the heads if there is a problem.
I watched Adept Ape guy on u-tube use his on big truck engine. There are guys around here that do it. Machine shop probably can do it also but the mobile guy is able to do on machine.
It very possible it will be only one hole Be careful if you have to take a head off I can tell you from experience if you drop it on your boot it will smash your steel toe and break your toe
Break your toe? No, you will never use your toe again. Each head weights around 250-300 pounds.
Just saw your 1963 D7E Direct Drive video. That is one pretty dozer. It still has most, if not all of the guards in place!
Nope it’s fine almost new pair of boots were junk though
Steel toed boots?
Yep smashed the steel toe way down had a real hard time getting my foot out of it! And it only fell 2 feet or less
Going back to the original post, 5 gallons lost is a pretty significant leak. Was the radiator topped off before winter storage? Seems you have more than one issue going on. Are you sure there are no external leaks? Did you check at the water pump?
I don’t remember where radiator level was late in the fall. There was no residual coolant in the belly pan when I took it off a few days ago. I see it’s dirty around the deep hole on the bottom of the water pump. I’ll start it up and crawl back under and take a look. Thanks for the suggestion Old Magnet.
That s/n still has the separate vacuum and over pressure relief valve as well as the separate fill cap. Is the valve and drain line functioning?
. The weep hole between the auxiliary drive and water pump. You can see the shaft turning.
I’m not clear on this. Are we talking about the secondary cap on radiator?
I believe this is what he is talking about
Does the top of your radiator look somewhat like this.? DD
I don’t know. If the cooling system over pressures should there be coolant coming out of drain line?
The pressure relief/vacuum valve should lift at 10 psi pressure and the vacuum should release at 2.5 psi vacuum. That is what controls the water level, the other cap is just for fill access. The drain tube coming off the top tank often gets plugged even though there is a screen in the base of the valve. Yes if over pressure coolant may come out the drain line assuming the water level in the top tank provides flow. If water level is low you would just get air (or steam).
Yes ill take a peak then, thank you.
The drain line seems clear
Just some pics
And some more
Do I need to tap into the cap and pressure test to over 10Psi to test relief?
If the valve is stuck open (as you stated as clear) you will need to dismantle the valve and check why. Yes, a pressure/vacuum check will be required.
I guess I didn’t word that right. The steel line coming off the 90 degree fitting is clear. As for the regulator I haven’t taken it apart. Question: if combustion gases are leaking into the coolant would the cooling system build up pressure past the 10 psi regulator and start dumping? I see no sign of it if that’s the case. Thanks
I would say yes it will start to dump if cumbustion gases are entering the system. May take a few minutes, and changes according to temperature and load and RPM. Simon C
haven’t noticed any discharge from that tube when I had it running with cap back on.
Did you get it up to full temperature and loaded hydraulics when checking. Simon C
Blow back through the 90 degree fitting, normally the relief valve would be closed.
Yes. I put cardboard in front of rad and used hydraulics to load it up.
I can do that, thanks.
They have test kits for combustion gases, you could rule that out...or in, pretty easy.
The first time I drained the coolant into pails and used paper towel to soak up sooty film. After I put it back in and ran machine up to temperature for 15 -30 minutes its showed up again the next morning. It seems obvious to me.
Oh sorry, I thought it was still undetermined.
Don't be sorry. Nothing is for sure for me here. I'm not the expert here. I appreciate your's and everyones advice. Once heads come off we will know some more.
Just a little tip before removing the heads. I often use a hacksaw blade to clean between the heads as they can get a lot between them . That and compressed air to clean to the bottom. Less wil fall into the motor that way. Thats what I generally do to clean before pulling off. Simon C
Thanks Simon C. Not sure if I want to pull everything complete as a single unit or take everything apart individually. The book gives a few options.
I had to recently pull the heads on my 47A. The manual says to use "lifting eyes", but there is no place to put them where the load is even (so that the head comes straight up). I used small sections of angle iron to make four lifting "eyes" to attach my chains to, which were connected to a chain hoist. These "lifting eyes" were attached to each outside corner using existing 3/8"-16 threaded holes. The threaded holes are not deep, so I used 3/4" bolts in each one.
I note that you mentioned the first combustion chamber came out pretty easy.You may have been lucky with that,or a cracked head is possibly the cause around that chamber. To loose 5 gallons of water over winter is a lot to weep out of a cracked head or dropped liner.I would have assumed that amount would have caused a piston to hydraulic when you started it after winter. Are you sure the water pump is not leaking?They love leaking out of the shaft if it’s worn when sat over long periods.They often stop leaking when put back to work. As for the very common problem of dropped liners,unless your tractor is overheating,just pull the relief valve out and fit a small hose that runs into the belly plate so you can’t see any steam or water shooting out all over the hood. Just be sure to keep the water level right. On the subject of water level,do not overfill an old tractor.As long as you can see the water just covering the fins through that little hole,you’ve enough water.If you fill it to the top,you’ll just cause it to spew out everywhere.
Got back into it today. Took off the water manifold, exhaust and air intake. None of these things are lite. No wonder the engine weighs in the 5,000 lb range.
You didn't try removing all the pre-combustion chambers and regasket them first? They are a lot easier to remove when the heads are still on the engine.
Ok, thanks. I haven't removed the heads yet.
Looks like someone got carried away with the goo.
Got front head off for the moment.
Head gasket flipped up.
In my opinion I think you need to check liner protrusion
Just wondering what I have to rig up to do just that.
First you have to clean every thing up. a h bar is put across liner to head studs put spacers on head studs to make up space so you can torque nuts down then you need a liner protrusion gauge to check. your going to need a book for torque and spec for protrusion
Thanks pittsburgh cat man. I have the book. Its says .004 -.008 inches. I don't have a sled gauge. I just have a dial indicator that I used on my Komatsu engine rebuild. Wish I had one though.
should say I think no more than .005 between measurements on one cylinder and no more than duh I can't remember between cylinders
i'll look at the book again tomorrow and see if it gives those specs, thanks.
The liner needs to be bolted down with any plate set up. I use the same plate that I pull the liners out with put on top to hold down. Remember it does not need to be torqued down to normal torque as the liner is tight on the block with even 100 ft/lbs. The regular torque when head is on is just stretching and preloading the bolt. That is all I have ever done. Simon C
Couple of examples of liner clamping. Once clamped you can use a straight edge with feeler gauge to measure.
I’ll remain optimistic that I’ve seen much worse when the head first comes off. As others have stated,now it needs a really good clean up and inspection including liner heights. You’ll allways get a few uneven liners in these old tractors.It’s all a matter of just how much they are out of true and how bad the pressurising is. Remember,it’s an old girl and definitely don’t get too hung up on original specs from Cat books.
Does this seem ok to you all? It doesn’t leave much room to position my dial indicator. All I can do is pivot with magnet base not activated. I don’t trust this method very much. My book says 4-8 thou protrusion. I also tried using feeler gauges butted up against liner edge. Seems kind of ok. Maybe I should pull all studs so I can do a better prep job and try again?
I thought I would check to see what the dial indicator gauge body was worth up here in Alberta. It doesn’t leave much not include the gauge. It’s frustrating to me what the Cat dealer charges for stuff up here.
This would be a lot more reasonable
From what I have seen, the liner protrusions all look good.
Usually that is done with a tool (square stell part) that hold a micrometer and one can slide it back and forth from deck surface to liner surface. Redirect Notice Sometimes one have also to check deck distortion too, not too common to have distortion in a such massive block. same for the head surface. Of course the quality of the gasket will play a much more important role in sealing that having a small distortion, even in the liner protrusion.
Might not be a good idea to pull liner studs as you don't know what is the condition of the threads in the bottom. Could cause great problems. I would work around. Simon C
Sled gauge came in today. Cylinder #1 comes in at 7 thou all around. Book says 4-8 thou acceptable.
Cylinder #2 about the same give or take 1/2 a thou.
Any after market gaskets and seals that you can recommend?
Any crack in the threads (of heads) where the pre-cups thread in? Have you pulled the other pre-cups to inspect/reseal/reseat? Understand PO may have (or may NOT have!) messed with heads/head gaskets so worth the deep dive (plus good detail on liner verification!); but not seeing where you exhausted all effort/verification on each/ALL pre-cups.
Are you suggesting sending the heads in to machine shop to be pressure tested to check for cracks? Thanks D5Dan.
Rereading the thread late last night, my understanding is you pulled-out/reinstalled ONE pre-cup then refilled with water and found bubbles still coming out of radiator, then pulled front head off. Likely I missed you had pulled ALL pre-cups before jumping into head(s) removal. Not a bad thing (especially given PO info)…AND looks to me the liner protrusion is in spec. Now if heads (and block) are flat (enough) and good gaskets are used…it’s as if the silver bullet has NOT been found as to why combustion gases are getting into the radiator…so I was questioning have you looked at (and resealed) ALL the pre-cups to take those question marks off the table? Seems like from the stories/pics I have read on HEF about pre-cups - either the pre-cups themselves are pin hole pitted (from bad coolant and/or age) OR the threads where they go into the head have a hairline crack (like a PO over torqued them going back in?)…so since you have the one head off, I’m asking do you “see” any hairline crack(s) where that joker screws in? Should add/question about the old head gasket situation too - is there a right-side up on which way they go on? Could previous wrench monkey have made a slight slip up?? I know I made that mistake (on both banks) before putting a Buick v8 back together- real forehead slapper moment!! Keep up the good work; you will get to the bottom of this!!
Thanks again D5Dan. Thinking out loud here.......could one take a precup and put a cap on bottom threads and adapted to top threads with fittings and pull a vacuum to see if they are good. I guess you could pressurize them also. I will visually inspect threads first with boroscope. I'll double check head gasket for orientation also.
Have used KMP kits, just be aware that on 2 different engines the bolts would not pass through the gasket. Had to die grind some steel away for bolts to pass. They were okay as nothing else was available. Go OEM if available. Simon C
#1 & #2 precups. #1 looks brand new. #2 just has minor corrosion to me.
Can someone tell me what’s acceptable? I can fit a 2 thou feeler gauge in the odd spot but mostly drags the straight edge about.
Last two precups.
Doesn't seem like your measuring right. You want to measure the height between the block and the stepped portion, not to the top of the liner.
Old Magnet. I am only measuring to the step. Not the top of the flange. The closest to block surface.
I think I misunderstood you Old Magnet. If we are talking about three posts back where I’m fitting the 2 thou feeler gauge under the straight edge. I’m not measuring liner protrusion. I’m just looking for any dips close to the out edge of liner.
Nice work on pulling those!! I couldn’t agree more they look great, honestly even o-rings. But, I do notice the “body’s” of the pre-cups are different…1 and 3 are the same, and 2 and 4…but they’re not ALL the same?? Probably no big deal, any part numbers/stamps just to see if PO slipped in superseded parts? Likely chasing a ghost… Pics are great- keep ‘em coming
I'm thinking I should get # 1-2 pistons turned down and take a peak at the liners before I pull off the second head. I wonder if one can Mcgiver some plates with o-rings to seal the first head coolant passages and pressure it up with precups reinstalled?........ or just take the heads into the machine shop?
If you warm the bottom of the heads between the valves in the thin sections, if there is a crack it may show up instantly. I have found some cracks that way before. Doesnt take that much heat for the head to display the crack. Don't make it red just warm it up well with torch moving fast. Simon C
Taking a peak at the two front cylinders and was wondering if the lines were from machine sitting for extended periods of time?
Cleaned up head and took small MAP gas torch and heated up.
The crack may only show when warm, so if you did not see, you are probably okay. The lines on the cylinder liner look like from sitting as you said. Wonder what the bottom of the other heads look like. Simon C
Thanks Simon. I’m headed for the second head next.
Does this not look newer than other head? The number stamped inside is 1M2960. The number on the first head off looks like 1M2980. Is that possible?
Mmmm, I’m seeing a block and a head, will look back and check, I think you posted wrong first photo. Maybe I’m not awake enough, lol.
Crosshatching still looks good in that cylinder.
Now I'm thinking this is the head last owner said he had in machine shop.
Looks kind of like anti-seize to me. Not sure. Can mixing different coolants cause this? When rad was low I topped up with a universal yellow premix coolant quite some time ago. I just picked up some red premix that they said is compatible with all. That’s what I topped up with before tear down.
Almost looks like there was pepper put in the system. Maybe just mixing of coolants. Simon C
The head gasket is facing up
I suppose I’ll get the rest of the coolant out of her and give it a good flush. Still don’t know where the coolant leaked out yet. Should I pull rad out? That would give good access to water pump. I have a seal or two and gasket that came with machine for a water pump, just not sure if it’s for this one.
1M2960 is a kosher number for the head. 1M2980 is not. Maybe the number on the casting on one head is not totally clear (it happens) but I would suggest you have 2 x 1M2960.
Thanks for checking Nige. I agree.
These are the correct head casting numbers:
Just a reminder on the coolant loss that hoses at -40 will leak coolant but will seal back up and look dry in warmer weather. It happens here all the time . I’ve seen that a machine sitting outside over winter will lose a couple gallons of coolant with no sign of a leak come springtime. The hoses seem the harden and shrink in the cold.
Any chance this is our smoking gun? If head bolt torque was low. I should have done it on first head off but I set my tourque wrench to 300 foot pounds and tightened one big nut on second head before removal. I got almost 1/4 turn before click. Is the part number for the o-ring 6L-7813? Can I reuse copper ferrule? Thanks
Seems retorquing was recommended way back at the beginning of this thread. Yes you can reuse the ferrules if not damaged. Seals are 6B6225=6L7813=6L5424
If anti freeze is burned off, it creates an aluminum looking sludge, especially the older antifreeze all had aluminum in it. but it definitely looks like a smoking gun, all that heavy lifting but for a re-tourque. lol
Thanks Old Magnet. I’ll not forget this lesson. I’m thankful for being able to get in there and see for myself the workings of these machines. I’m planning on selling the machine and want to miss-represent it to the next owner.
Pulled gasket off and flipped over for pic. I notice all the seals have been gooped into place with some sort of sealant. I’m guessing it’s not nesassary? Trucks of the trade?
Hard to tell from a picture but it does look like that gasket has been passing some soot and compression on the fire ring. It’s not too likely that a simple retorque would stop an already leaking gasket. The gasket is usually distorted by the time it starts leaking.
Rub that stuff between your fingers and see if you strike oil
Don't what to.............I never liked english class in school.........didn't like school period.
Assuming there’s no cracked heads, cracked block,it’s probably safe to refit with new head gaskets.There will be low liners and a few issues in there, but new gaskets should get you going for what you need out of that tractor. Whilst I’m happy to use non oem parts and gaskets,I will only ever use genuine Cat head gaskets.They are far superior in my opinion
You should have performed a coolant system flush using oxalic acid (per the manual) prior to opening it up. That there is years of sludge build up. Just remember to perform the flush after everything is back together. Also, open up the cooling ports at the end of each head (from the old pony motor coolant tracks) as they too will be caked up with hardened sludge. These ports no longer get circulation, so they will almost always be caked up. I had to literally use a hammer and chisel to remove the hardened sludge in my heads. When you refill your coolant system, never use plain water (too many minerals) - always used distilled water with your antifreeze.
Parts are coming from Finning ( Cat )
Thanks SLK001. Good catch! The smoo is not caked on thankfully. My guess is the different coolants mixture. ( My bad ) I poured a little water in one of those ports and the goo flowed out. I'll get a hose and flush it out. Once its back together I'll flush the whole system before refilling with the proper coolant.
So curious once you got the second head off, did the marks/lines on the cylinders (probably from sitting) look ok? Was hard to tell from original pic if they were deep; and/or if any material had been pulled from the liners?? At this point I’m certainly hoping you catch some breaks and start spinning the wrenches in a clockwise manner!!! Damn good project you got going, appreciate being able to watch/follow along…can’t wait to see the video of it running/working
D5Dan, I didn't notice any marking on cylinder #3 and haven't turn #4 down to inspect. I couldn't feel much of anything on #1&2 cylinders where the marking was but I'll do another check. I still have to clean the second head surface and check the liner protrusion. Need to flush the goo out of heads also. It's a great project for sure! Thanks for the encouragement and advice.
I would be pulling the oil cooler’s, engine & transmission, and possibly the radiator, lot’s of work,but it’s over 60 years old a lot of things can be overlooked, cheers
I checked protrusion on second head block section with #3 cylinder in the 6 - 7 thou range and 4 closer to 7 - 8 thou range. There is not a lot of deck space to work with on one side which makes it harder to measure but according to the compression marking on gasket I think it should be ok.
It’s been along time,but those liners all sound good heights to me.Almost new.
Should I use sealant on the head gasket and if so what kind? I’m using Cat oem gaskets, thanks.
head gaskets does not use sealant.... but u can certainly use something to avoid glueing of surfaces, so the next guy can dissasemble easy, like copper spray, or "mastinox" Google Image Result for https://www.aviatec.net/images/j2store/products/diffusees/37666-MASTINOX-D40-160ML.png
No sealant should be used on a head gasket
The only thing I will do on a head is if an oil passage goes through, with an o-ring, I may put a little silicone around the o-ring base where there is a gap in the gasket. I am sure it is not needed but makes me feel a little better if that gap is filled a little.
Can be used on some depending of the design. On some it will kick the rubber seals right out that control oil leakage and what a mess and pull back apart. On Cat Gaskets I usually use nothing. Simon C
There are no oil passages thru the head gasket - only water. When I replaced the heads, I put Vaseline on the rubber water director gaskets to help them seat into the head properly. I also used no sealant, or release agent - just plop down the gasket, then drop the head on top.
I tried the Vaseline but fell asleep I was getting ready to drop down. I used Molykote which is like Vaseline but with more holding power. First head is installed.
The pre cup washer is .8mm thinner than original. Is this a deal breaker?
A precup washer "kit" should contain 3 different thicknesses of washers that enable the chamber to be tightened to the correct torque while at the same time positioning the glow plug in the correct orientation. i don't have specific info for your engine so the attached is for a 3306 but at least will give you the idea.
No glow plugs no problem
Thanks Pittsburg cat man. That’s what I thought. Is it ok to put Koperkote on the threads of the pre-cup? I also coated both sides of the steel gaskets. On one of the pre-cups if you use a magnifying glass looking at the threads, you can see tiny imperfections almost like looking at cast iron imperfections. Maybe the combustion is/was taking metal from it or it is not manufactured properly. Not sure. I’ll maybe pull it and try and get a close up picture for all to see.
We used cooper anti seize on threads and washers. Threads don't have anything to do with sealing the gaskets do the sealing long as they take the torque you should be good
I wonder if at some point a head gasket repair product was introduced into the cooling system….
Snake oil crap. Put some pepper in the radiator while you’re at it. There is a sucker born every minute. Anyone want to buy some original Slick 50 from the 80’s. I know what I got here. lol
The thinner gasket ended up putting the glow plug plug right where I didn’t want it. Had to nip the washer to get the head bolt nut on. Haven’t had a lot of time to work on machine lately. Summer is very busy on the farm here.
Does anyone know what the tourque should be for the two big nuts holding down the rocker arm assemblies? Is it the shaft lock bolt ( nut touque ) ?
No it is not the shaft locking bolt. No torque is given for the larger mounting nuts. Use standard torque values.
Thanks Old Magnet. I googled it and got 73 ft/lbs. Does that seem reasonable?
Cat standard torque specs for inch size fasteners attached.
Thanks Nige!
Update. Got it back together. Still have bubbles in radiator. Maybe not as bad as before but not sure. If there was a problem with oil cooler would you also get bubbles? Thanks.
Bubbles are from cumbustion gases getting into the cooling system. Problem with the gases is that they may only escape when a hidden crack warms up and opens up. Really old iron is more prone to this kind of stuff. You must have a crack in the head somewhere or a precup that is leaking into the coolant. Heads can pass pressure tests and still fail under heat. Maybe a hair crack in a precup thread. Maybe someone else will have a suggestion. Simon C
Did you warm the head with a torch to look for cracks when it was off. I have found a few cracks that way. Problem is, where does a guy find another head that is not full of problems. Simon C
Yes I took a torch and heated up the head between valves and precup threads.
Are you sure you’re getting combustion gases and not just air bubbles from small air pockets. I have seen small bubbles from rebuilt motors last a long time. Have you got the motor really hot and worked it for a few hours?
HarleyHappy, the bubbles were big burps. I stuck a see through stock container in rad cap and overfilled it so I could see. No bubbles at first but as the engine warmed up they started again.
I understand the big burps but have you ran the machine around and got it good and hot. I am not going to say there isn’t a leak somewhere but until you really move it around and work it a little bit and let everything set up, I wouldn’t discount air in the system.
Hey James, glad to hear she’s back together, sorry issue is still at hand. In post 149 I asked if you found part numbers/stampings on your precups when you had them out…I asked at that time since I was surprised to see two different precup bodies in use…to me that raised a question as to why are they different; is one body style original and the other body style a replacement (or superseded)? If so why were all not replaced/upgraded (when the previous owner had it), why only two changed? And most importantly are they all CAT cups or aftermarket (again they all looked really good in the pics, but what are they?) also know you questioned pressure testing them on the bench (or atleast vacuum test them to see if they hold X vacuum for y mins…certainly one test Skidoo uses to verify engine seals) Second thought…burping a cooling system can be a real PITA…some are easy, and some just won’t play nice…I’d try elevating the nose of the machine in hopes the air pockets move from block to radiator…I would ASSume a combustion leak would show steady bubbles not the big air pockets like your describing (but not sure)… Speaking of vacuum test, might make sense to drain the cooling system and get a vacuum tool to pull a vacuum on the cooling system to see if it holds, and/or if you can pinpoint were the air is coming from. The tool I use is: https://www.harborfreight.com/cooling-system-test-and-refill-kit-64985.html …not a big fan of hobo-freight tools, but for short money and easy availability they do help. Man, I’m really hoping your precups are the silver bullet- the alternatives are not good …wait, and I just remembered your coolant leak, not sure it’s possible but can a water pump/lower hose be sucking air as it heats up???
Thanks again for the suggestions Happy Harley Happy, Simon, D5Dan, I really appreciate your help. I don’t remember any part numbers on precups. I’ll get it warmed up good before I do anything else. Then vacuum test cooling system. Might not get to it for a bit…..cutting hay today plus a hundred other things summer on the farm brings.
Well,if you’re convinced you’ve got all the air out of it,and the heads aren’t cracked (and you’ve refitted everything) there is the faint possibility that your block is cracked. Been down that road with a D8H years ago. Took a few head removal’s and head scratching with some good fitters before we started to consider the unthinkable. Hairline crack in the block deck. Scrap time.
Not scrap time here. Just use it sparingly and keep an eye on it. I ran my dump truck with a hole in the block for a bit, even siliconed a rubber piece over the hole, for a bit, till I got a motor for it. Lol
That’s what I like to hear! …..for now anyways.
I have to say you are really humorous hahaha I have to say you are really humorous hahaha
Unfortunately,my D8 would get hot,so not possible to run it. It was a front line tractor at the time and working long hours.The undercarriage was pretty much worn out and it hadn’t had any major money pumped into it,so I broke it for spares.I had another 4 D8’s running at the time,so the parts tractor paid dividends over many more years.
Here’s something of note….The weather has warmed up recently so i thought i would start up some machine. I was poking around the D7E dozer when i noticed the plug on the side of the block to the water jacket fell out and was laying on the ground. Im guessing during the last cold spell the rubber shrunk a bit. Lost a couple gallons of coolant. Now here’s a thought…… was this where the bubbles in radiator were coming from? I’ve put the plug back in and tightened it up really good.( maybe need a frost plug?) This plug would have been for the pup motor cooling system I believe. Filled it up and got machine warmed up with cardboard in front of radiator. There are no bubbles bursting into the plastic stock container like back in April. Outside temperature is about the same as then also. ( 10 C ) I’m not sure if this was the issue or not?
Maybe the rubber plug was allowing the water pump to suck air in. Glad you caught it. Simon C
I just think the bubbles at the top were caused by the difference between cold outside temperature and warm antifreeze
That’s interesting! Our Chinese food place uses the same kind of take out bowls!. lol
Do you think a machine shop could repair the threads on the manual angle cylinder. They are striped.
There's not supposed to be a rubber plug there. It should be a freeze plug.
That happened to me. I just ended up welding the two pieces together.
I agree. Thanks for this.
fig 5 in parts listing but o so replace the O RINGS