Hey everyone, I’m new here. First off, thanks for having me! I have about 11 acres, mostly wooded, and I’d like to clear some trees and move dirt as needed. I’m looking for a dozer, and since I have some large hardwoods, I’m leaning toward something heavy-duty. Some of my trees are 64 inches wide and weigh a lot, so I need something with substantial weight. I found a 1983 Caterpillar 963 with a 4+1 bucket nearby. The current owner used it to clear land for his house. It has about 16,500 hours on it. There’s no record of the engine, transmission, or pumps being replaced or overhauled, but the seller recently did a cylinder head job because of a burnt valve. He also replaced the injectors, injector gaskets, muffler, belts, idler, and a few other parts. The machine starts up easily and sounds good. It seems to move well, and the bucket is in good shape with only a small amount of slop. I had a friend who owns an excavating business check it out, and he said the undercarriage looks pretty good, with the pins already rotated. The right track could be tightened, but otherwise, there are no major issues. There’s no smoke at idle, so there doesn’t seem to be any blowby. However, the indicator panel to the right doesn’t work, and the ignition key is stuck, though I believe I can fix that easily. The seat is in rough shape, and there’s some rust on the panels. The machine spent most of its life in Virginia Beach with a couple who used it for clearing work. The seller is asking $18,750 and isn’t willing to lower the price. He’s trying to recoup his investment in the machine. I’m hesitant to make the purchase and am unsure if I should move forward. My main concerns are the hours on the machine and the potential need for major component replacements soon. I know that any older machine could have these issues, but I’m not sure how the drivetrain on these dozers holds up and whether the hours are a significant concern. I would really appreciate any advice or insights you might have. I don’t want to end up with a 40,000-pound paperweight in my driveway right away, but I understand that repairs will be necessary. I’m just unsure about how soon these repairs might be needed and how much use I’d get out of the dozer. Should I go ahead with the purchase or hold off? I think a lot of others who have went and checked it out have had the same concerns because it's been for sale for 3 years at around 21k, but he told me he'd take less.
With those hours and no record of major component overhauls/rebuild = [potential] money pit. What's 40k pounds of scrap steel worth in your neck of the woods.? The machine isn't worth much more than that as a starting point.
No clue, he said he took the old idler to the scrap yard and got $35 bucks for it. I don't think he'll negotiate much from his asking price, probably why it's been sitting a long time
There you go....!! (© Charlie Harper) I can only repeat what I said above. Age + hours + no documented component rebuilds = it's not worth much more than scrap value.
Only thing he has documented is the Cylinder head rebuild, there's a lot more on the machine than that. I tried calling CAT with the serial number but they didn't have much either. Not sure if there is any other way to check.
I just found a mid 80's 955L with 2600 hours delivered for 12,500? Seem like a better option, of course can't see it in person but in the videos and pictures it appears fine.
Mid-1980s with that low hours.? You must believe in the tooth fairy and flying pigs............
Haha, I wish I could... Good old used machine is proving difficult to find. I guess these are mechanical so someone could roll the hour dial back if they wanted to eh? 2600 (even) does seem odd, it hasn't even tipped over to 2001 yet. Could have 20,000 hours on it, FML
If you can not go look at the machine in person and have someone check it out it you are not well versed, Do not even consider sending any money.
At 16500hrs, undercarriage should of been replaced 3 times, 2 trans rebuilds, 3 head gaskets, one complete engine, 2 radiators, 3 turbos, alternators and starter motors. 5 sets of batteries, 2 seats, 5 repaints, 10 sets of GETs. Any big machinery over 5000hrs cost money. Take some pictures of the first machine and post on here. Specifically, undercarriage.
It's too worrisome for me that non of those replacements were documented. So I am going g to hold off on that first machine. I did find another, an 80s 973 that appears to be cared for a bit more with 12000 or so hours. There asking like almost 30k but already got them down to 25k off the bat. It also has a cabin, waiting g to hear back from on maintenance though. Here are some pictures, this is a tiring process...
I also found another guy that was selling a 951 claiming and swore that it only has 2500 hours on it... it must be common for people to.mess with the meters on these I guess to try to fetch more money?
Welcome to the Forums 328! Glad to have you. First of all hour meters are easily replaced, especially on older equipment. The 951 with 2500 hours on it is more thank likely a pipe dream just like the 955 with 2600. 973's are big loaders that Cat didn't make many of so parts will be more expensive than the 963's and 953's. What is your top end budget?
Hey! Thanks for having me! Thanks for that info. Like 25k max, it would just be used wvey so often or a few hours a day around my property
The 973 is a nice machine, I drove one for a while in the mid-1990's - but they have a hydrostatic drivetrain, and they can run into BIG dollars when they need repair. For your budget, I'd look for an older Cat traxcavator, that has been well cared for, and which has more simple components in its construction. There are genuine low-hour machines out there, but you really need to search intensively to find them. Remember that the size of a tractor governs its value, too, with large tractors harder to quit, because they cost serious money to move around. Plus, bigger tractors means heavier components, so you start to need lifting equipment for repairs. Changing hour meters or disconnecting them is one of the oldest tricks in the book, you always examine the crawler components first, then look at the hour meter to compare component condition and then determine if the meter might be correct. Possibly only one-third of used equipment has a meter that shows correct hours. Don't forget the auction houses as a source of potential buys - and make sure you take along a mechanically experienced buddy when you check out a tractor.
Thanks, how often do they really need repair though? I know it all depends and it's kind of hard to tell, but I am having hard time finding like an average or likelihood with these to make a good educated guess or decision. Are signs before they go, like noise or weird shifting? Or do they often just top out of the blue? I really don't want something that I'll have to work on all the time either. The goal is to hopefully find something, get use out of and have something break later on instead of as soon as I get it. Excuse my language but I've got enough **** around here that I work on as is. I don't take any of my stuff to the mechanic or anything like that so I am pretty busy keeping up. My neighbor has a older 955 or 951, not sure which exactly but he it seems it has served him well. He literally use daily moving dirt. I guess he got lucky on his. I haven't had to look too far to find ones with lower hours which definitely leads me to believe the meters have been unplugged at some point. And what's even more concerning is that 99% when you ask the seller about it they act like such an act is impossible or get offended. Not sure why, if they were the original owner I could see why, but the majority of older / used machines have had several before them so anything could have happened. I've got a tractor with a loader to help with lifting and moving stuff. Having a hard time finding a traxacator nearby, Ill keep looking. Auctions are a great idea, thanks for reminding me. Ill keep an eye on them nearby
What do you guys think about this? CAT 955L track loader , D330 Cat diesel 130 hp , power shift trans | eBay Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for CAT 955L track loader , D330 Cat diesel 130 hp , power shift trans at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products! www.ebay.com
Personally if I was trying to clear 60"+ trees on 11 acres I would be looking for an excavator to take them down and prob a dozer to move them. From the loaders you have listed the 973 would be the only one to tackle those trees by itself. Unless you are pushing the trees down hill the smaller loaders would be pretty much useless in my opinion. Like OzDozer mentioned, a 973 can turn into a huge money pit in the blink of an eye.
Heavy equipment is not like a vehicle where you keep filling the tank and literally drive it from one oil change to the next. It’s always going to need something doing to it, and generally the amount of $$$ related to that “something” will depend on whether whoever does the maintenance is being proactive or reactive.
The best you can do are these couple of steps - Always inspect the machine in person before any money changes hand Take an experienced mechanic with you to inspect the machine Get the machine to operating temperature to go through all the functions Take oil samples of every fluid component and send it to an oil lab Do not purchase the machine until oil analysis comes back Not much more you can do other than a short term rental purchase type agreement where you can run the machine for a period of time before paying for it. Doubt you get any seller of old equipment to agree to that.
That 955L appears to be in quite good order, and they're a good tractor. Undercarriage is good, bucket is good, you just need to run it and see if it shows any problems such as hard starting, smoking, engine miss, or low on power. Check out the radiator core, they get sandblasted by dirt falling from the rear of the bucket onto the hood, which then goes into the fan, and the fan drives the sand and gritty particles into the core. That tractor will do all you want to do. Operating a crawler tractor is all about thinking what you're going to do, and how you're best going to do it, with minimal effort and thought-out moves - rather than just repeatedly banging into the tree/rock/obstruction The 955L has electric start, oil cooled steering clutches and pedal steer, and a reliable 3304 model engine, so it's a refined version of the older Cats. Don't forget though, that traxcavators are difficult to work on, cramped, and contain many inaccessible components. You get best access by raising the bucket and propping the arms securely.
Thanks again, all. I really like the 955's, seems like they could be less of a money pit than the 963's and so forth and I could work on them myself more easily. Only problem with that one is that its in PA, not that I don't want to make the trip, think it's like 5+ hours. The problem is that everyone I've went and checked out so far have be not advertised correctly, so it's been a waste of time. I'm afraid the same may happen again if I take a day off and go out there. He's got videos and stuff of it running. Only thing I can tell from the pictures is that it looks like the tracks were wet with something on them at some point. I guess if the price point is correct though, I wouldn't mind fixing hydraulic leaks as long as they aren't super bad. Think he said he'd have that one delivered for $12,500... Again, I don't know of anyone in PA that could check it for me sadly. But the tracks even look pretty darn good actually.
Apparently the tracks where wet from them filling it fluid, I guess some spilled
Most sellers have a very high opinion of their machines, one that is usually not shared by potential purchasers once they have seen the iron in person. Work on the “buyer beware” principle and, as others have said, under no circumstances should you part with money until someone knowledgeable has had the chance to cast an eye over what you intend to buy and given it a seal of approval.
All depends on where in PA it is located. From memory there are quite a few knowledgeable forum regulars in the state.
Thanks Nige, I agree with you there. I guess I could maybe find someone in the area, a mechanic perhaps and ask if they could go look at it for me. It's in fort washtington PA
Maybe I could create another post seeing if anyone is in that area?
1992 Caterpillar 963 Loader 1992 Caterpillar 963 Loader, approximately 1500 hours on the rebuilt eng, machine has around 14,000 hours on it. Serial #21Z04499 for machine, engine serial #12Z467775, Runs and operates as it should. bid.mountainvalleyauctions.com
Has 14000 hours, says next service 12500. Bucket GET adapters worn and teeth missing. Seat buggered. One track loose, could be track adjuster leaking. Sprockets worn to point but not worst ive seen. Bushing running on idler, rails worn. Rollers worn. Looks a little unloved.
Did you buy it?
I did not. There were about 3 hours left in the auction, and it was already at around $12,200. This doesn’t include the 10% commission, 5.3% sales tax, or shipping costs. It sold for approximately $14,000, which would have brought the total to well over $17,000. The condition of the machine looked a bit rough, as you mentioned. The ad claimed the engine was overhauled, but when I called CAT with the serial number, they said the only record they had was of a gasket kit purchased to rebuild the top end (the cylinder head had cracked). After your post, I noticed several red flags. Thank you for the information. The most concerning issue for me was the hours on the machine and the possibility that it missed a service. A cylinder head rebuild or replacement does not qualify as an "engine overhaul." This is especially significant for a turbo engine—what about the ring lands? A crack is usually caused by overheating, which suggests that the heat gauge might not work and there could be problems with the cooling system or its components (if they weren't replaced at the same time as the head). Additionally, I couldn’t inspect the machine in person. Another red flag was in the video: the operator kept the idle extremely low while maneuvering the bucket and moving it forward and backward. I’ve been looking at 955/951 models, and one is up for auction a little over an hour away. It has been owned by the same people since the early '90s, which is a positive sign for me. There’s also another one in PA where the owner has the original manual and has had it for over 15 years. He seemed very honest on the phone, being the first person to admit that the machine leaks a bit of hydraulic oil but doesn’t puddle. To me, this is expected in an older machine and when some tells me that they are not leaking "at-all" is usually full of ****. Auction in VA - 951 (about 14 or so days left) Currently at $70 bucks Link: https://bid.mountainvalleyauctions.com/ui/auctions/125434/16831123 Facebook Marketplace PA - 955L around $16k (original manual guy) Link: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/991020972817258/?mibextid=dXMIcH Facebook Marketplace PA - 955L $19k (high dollar guy) Link: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/594928299132736/?mibextid=dXMIcH eBay / Facebook Marketplace - 955L Around 11k (Low price, quick sell guy) Link: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2117135601989792/?mibextid=dXMIcH Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/387004230924 Thanks for the help all! I am itching to get on one of these but I am trying to be patient so I don't get burned!
What yall think of this at 12,500? 1970 CATERPILLAR 955L For Sale in Roanoke, Virginia 1970 CATERPILLAR 955L For Sale in Roanoke, Virginia at MachineryTrader.com. OROPS, RUNS AND OPERATES GOOD. VIDEOS AVAILABLE!! www.machinerytrader.com
Sprocket segments are new. Hard to guess condition of rails, but pads look old, cracked and worn. Bucket has no teeth? Just adaptors and edge looks worn.
Ebay one looks honest. Looks like who owns it has a bit of gear so more likely to be serviced and repaired, unlike farmer or small acreage owners(no offence) Dont have facebook, so can’t comment on rest
Good point, it may be the gone I go with. I just can't make it out there to check it our, sadly.
It does look like that 977L has a good undercarriage and they are a good machine from my understanding. The cost of that undercarriage would be as much as the price of that machine. It's really not that far away if you go to haul it the cost isn't too bad. You may want to take a quick look and take some chances just to get it. I think they made a lot of them and the parts shouldn't be too hard to get. It's a simpler machine without the big risk of the hydrostatic machines that can blow up into being a big repair bill. Could be worth the cost of getting a local caterpillar service rep to go out with you. Get it hot and push into a pile or something solid It should spin both the tracks in first gear. It should also steer just as well both ways in forward and reverse. Not a bad size for small acreage. Your neighbor probably knows something about them too That's a bonus. Best of luck no matter what you do!
You want the double grouser track pads like the 955L you're looking at not triple grousers if you want a machine that'll push well. The triple grocers are great for spinning around to load a truck or just to change direction without allot of friction and ground damage. With the money your talking about it may be a hard machine to find that's got the weight and horsepower you may be wanting/needing. The older machines are more in the price range but they may need work and your short of time. Above all things you don't want to have to put an undercarriage on a machine, especially a big one! I like to stick with caterpillar it's going to be your best choice for getting parts in the future. I saw this 977L with a winch I don't know if you have a lot of use for a winch but it's great for getting trees out of the woods. I think this proxy bid company is just bidding for you on a local auction but I'll send a link. The bucket and teeth look good and by the position of the front idler it looks like it has pretty new under carriage on it regrettably can't see a thing from the sides. I like buying things through iron planet auctions that have their iron clad assurance where they do an inspection and if they screwed up the inspection you can get your money back. 1979 Caterpillar 977L Loader | Proxibid Bid in a Proxibid online auction to acquire a 1979 Caterpillar 977L Loader from Joe R. Pyle Complete Auction and Realty Service. www.proxibid.com
I know very little about the rear engine mounted Cat traxcavators other than they are best bought brand new,or very young,looked after,then sold on around 8000 hours. It’s that simple. I’ve owned plenty of old Cat equipment that’s done ok for me,even a few new Cat dozers,but I’ve never dared dip my toe into the Cat traxcavator business,943,53,63 or the mighty 973.Unless you are absolutely at the top of your game in diagnostic testing and repairing your average 963,you’ll blow a hole in your bank account and you’ll start sucking down Valium like sherbet candy. Stay well away from one. Repeat that last sentence. On a more positive note,a nice Cat 955 or 977 is a different ball game,and providing you’ve a few thousand dollars hanging around to repair a few pipes,replace a few rollers and the likes,you may be ok and get away with something in the $15k mark and another $15k contingency fund.
Anything larger than a 955 and in some cases those, will need a Overhead Crane or Gantry to remove parts, just flat heavy, on field are a royal PITA to work on require many heavy jacks, stands and cribbing blocking. Changing rails or UC is not for the weak or soft headed, get you hurt in a heartbeat.
Look at the steering pedals and the floorboards for wear a lot of times they can tell you more than the hour meter. Pull the oil filler cap to check for blowback when she's running. Pull the oil screen on the transmission to look for metal. You can get a case of oil sample kits from Caterpillar and a little hand pump pretty reasonably run the oil samples through them. Each sample bottle comes with a long skinny tubes you run down dipstick tubes, oil fillers, whatever, the tiny hand pump sucks the fluid out and puts it in a little bottle. You bring it back to Cat and they ship them out simple and pretty reasonable. Sometimes if you wait for oil samples you're going to miss a good deal sooo... you can open up the filters by cutting the edge of sealed cans with a grinder. The idea is to break the seam but not put the grinding files in the filter. Once you have a paper filter element exposed you can take a razor knife and cut a strip out of the side. I usually like to take the accordion strip and press it in a vice to get all the oil out so you can see things better maybe you can use some other type of clamp probably a wood clamp. Tip that back and forth in the sunlight or some good lighting and look for sparklies that'll tell you a lot. If you think you're serious and you're going to go look at it either talk to the guy ahead of time or just buy the filters and bring them with you and some oil if you're going to seal the deal tell him you got to do this first. Get a good telescoping magnet that you can fish around in the final drives with after you've run it around and worked it good. That'll pick up the worst of the problems of bad gears or bearings.
I should add that I wouldn't get any of the modern hydrostatic machines without oil analysis there's just too much expensive tight tolerance rotating equipment moving around in the same oil flow. If you have something going bad you can take that contamination and run it through the other pumps and motors and the damage the other pieces of equipment to say nothing about contaminating the pipes and the tank. I'm a little clueless about how you really clean up that whole mess... I guess that's what filters are for lol. If I owned a modern piece of hydrostatic machinery I'd be continuously running oil analysis so that you could predict a piece of equipment going bad and get it repaired before it wrecks the other pumps and motors. I haven't even driven one of the rear engine machines or even a hydrostatic one. I do love the idea of a rear engine and the ability to counter rotate the tracks. The sea models didn't have the hinge over cab for service but that's a good idea I guess that's why they brought it back lol... A question to you that know more than I do about these rear engine machines. How much of the system is protected from cross-contamination?
Thanks for that Cat977, awesome advice. I came across this one that's nearby, not sure if it's worth going to look at or not. The price is considerably than others I have looked at, I think he'd take a fair cash price on it: Heavy Equipment Solutions | Buying & Selling Heavy Equipment We are here to help you buy and sell heavy equipment. Here at Heavy Equipment Solutions we have over 25 years of experience in helping our clients with purchases and sales. Additionally, we offer worldwide exporting. www.heavyequipmentsolutions.net
I'll compare it to the one on eBay so you have a reference. The one on eBay has a heavier duty much nicer bucket. If you look at the frame on the top back it's got rails around it. The teeth are better on it and on the one you sent just now you'll see some deep scallops between the teeth That's quite a bit of wear and the teeth may be starting to come loose. There's a leak on the left lift cylinder on the one on eBay. If you go and look at it see how much it's dripping I've used them quite while they're dripping a little. The paint's newer on this most recent one but yet the rust is bleeding through. I actually like them with older paint because they're not hiding anything and you know the paint's stuck on well cuz it's not falling off! On this most recent one it looks like they changed the rails/chains and sprockets but reused the pads, bottom rollers and the front idlers. If the bearing on the front idlers isn't loose they could go a while. If you look at a close-up of the front left idler It looks like the chains are riding deep into the bottom roller. You can prop the machine up with the bucket and go around see if those things are wobbly when you spin them by hand. I don't know how far they'll go. They welded bars across the triple grousers that were already pretty worn already, they put it on the back wrung. I'd say that's the wrong side should have should have been the front like a dozer. The rollover protection on the one you just sent I think is aftermarket whereas the one on eBay you can see that it has isolation joints right at the base of the pillars you'll see a little apparatus there I believe it's a rubber it's got a crossbolt through it. I think it keeps the rattling sound down. Looks like Cat. The aftermarket one I don't know if those things can crack the metal the welds or just make a lot of noise It doesn't have the kind of cross back brackets or fillets in. The exhaust doesn't have a rain flapper or a curved pipe at the top to keep the rain out. Little inexpensive stuff like that that's not done gives me concern about what else is not done. Think of this like a marrige... what kind of bride is worth the trouble that... comes with old age.
If it's close by go take a look. If there is some place you can run it for half an hour, push some dirt, etc that will tell you a lot more than what we can over the internet.
I don't agree with all the fear mongering here. Tell the guy selling the 963 that you want to use it on site. Then test run the heck out it. Loosening up a big area of ground, like 3 feet deep loose, get it the loose ground and get a heaping bucket of dirt in it. Check out how turns under load and fully check it each way for good counter rotation and see how fast the bucket raises. Load it up against a dirt bank it can't move, does it spin the tracks. It should roll them over and dig in. Check that the tractor runs good under hard digging for an hour. You should feel the engine rhythm in your butt it should not have weird vibrations they have a harmonic feel. Watch the temps, take a temp gun, does it run hot? After hard use I let mine sit on low idle and let them cool down before shutting it off. Always have. Does it cool down on low idle? If so you may have a good working tractor, if you are really upto it drop the belly pans and look for rotten hoses and such. You will need to do it one you get it so get ready. It can work you as much as you work it. Owning an older tractor is work, you are keeping it alive. Now get it bought and go put it to work. Figure it is going to cost you $35.00 per hour to run it when it's yours maybe even 40.00. If the under carraige has 25% left then that's about $6000 in value. Figure that it will blow hoses for a while and be a PIA, with luck your hydro and engine will hold till you can get the cost out of it. Considering a new machine is 250 to 300 k you are light years ahead.... If you can do a few 5k jobs here and there they pay for themselves in no time. Check your fluids watch over her and you will be fine. Run cat spec oil in the hyro and cheap oil in the lift circuit. Don't worry about new fluids that will happen when a hose blows... trees normally find the weak hose, had one blow down near the hydraulic tank this week. Even though it was down in the bottom corner of the machine it still covered me in hot oil and got in one of my eyes. I did not realize the return hoses could have that much pressure. It was like a hydraulic bomb, lost all the oil almost instantly. It is one of those hoses that have 2 90* fittings , one on each end. Normally must get the hydraulic tank loose and up to get the hose out. Redneck way is to cut the hose in half, make new hose with a straight coupling in an area you can reach with wrenchs and just slide it straight threw. The biggest problem these things have is the exhaust system rotting and putting heat into the radiators. But I found a Chinese seller on ebay that sells a one piece flex pipe for about 15% of what cat charges. Just buy several and toss them when they start rusting out. No way I would by a 55 or 77 they are getting old and everything rusts. Pipes etc *unless it is a heck of a price or in just great condition. Neither are probably the case...
I have zero experience with the rear-engined loaders but have 2 977H loaders that I bought for $5500 for both some 14 years ago now. For what I use them for they can’t be beat. The owner had passed away and his wife wasn’t sure what sort of condition they were in hence the price… They both ran but one ran poorly, turns out two pistons in the engine were melted from someone putting wrong injectors in there… so I got to learn about working on these machines. The loader frame being in the way does make access more difficult but I found it to be not too bad. The worst part on that job was having to jack the front of the machine up off the equalizer bar about 2 inches to get the oil pan off, everything else went relatively smooth. Parts were still available and honestly not even all that expensive. The machine runs great again now. As luck would have it, shortly after I bought them a huge job sorta fell into my lap for them - a movie was filmed on our land and they hired me with my 977 to build access roads, parking lots for the crew and all sorts of other odds and ends, the machines were paid for several times over and I was able to afford a cat technician to come and do a full service to my “daily driver” 977 since I still had to go do my day job and he did a very good thorough job. The only breakdowns I’ve had so far was one hydraulic line to the winch blew and the wire to the starter solenoid broke off. That was by far the biggest pain on that machine to date because the starter is buried behind the loader frame and with the arms all the way down it was almost impossible to get to. Took me hours to get a temporary wire on the darn thing so I could get it started and the arms up in the air so I could get in there and fix it right… Anyway, where I’m going with this is if those older 977s or 955s are in good shape and they check out like what others are saying and you take care of it with good maintenance you should have a good machine to do what you need them to for a good long time. Keep us posted
@Cat977 , @spitzair Awesome info and write up, thank you!! Glad to hear yours worked out @spitzair I think the eBay one is the best bet too with everything you and everyone else is said. The seller just called me and can have it hauled out here to me. However, I can't look at it. He reassured me that's a solid machine, and offered to have it sent out for a $2500 deposit with a potential full asking price of $12,000 once delivered. He agreed to tighten the left track up before sending and send picture upon completion. The wet spot on the track he said is from where the spilled fluid filling the reservoir, which make sense. If I find any problems once it arrives, I can offer him less. He's going to send paperwork, his ID and business information before I make the deposit with paperwork outline our terms of agreement. What do you guys think? To be willing to ship a machine for $2500, does that tell us he is confident of the quality? Should I go for it? He seems a lot more easier to work and transparent then some of the local buyers I've talked to who are selling and the price is much lower. I sent him a message that since he asking 11 on ebay, that it I think it's a better starting point than 12 since it's what he is willing to accept including the deduction of ebay fees https://www.ebay.com/itm/387004230924 Thanks everyone
Not being able to look at it is a big red flag to me anyway… did he give you a good reason why? I’d be worried he’ll take your $2500 “deposit” and you’ll never hear from him again…
I was thinking the same spitzair. There are many similar threads here as well.
Yeah that's a concerns, we will see if he is a legit business... Ill do some background him.| He's like 6 hours away from, that's a hike. He preferred me to look at it but I cant get out there
Oh I misunderstood then, I thought that he said you can't come look at it...
No worries, I may have typed it wrong. He said he would like to me look at it if I can
Looks like they did tighten the track...
Ok, so I looked him and figured out who he is. He's real and actually owns or owned a Demolition company in pa, hence the heaby equipment.... Looks like he did time, Check this out PENNSYLVANIA DEMOLITION CONTRACTOR SENTENCED FOR VIOLATING THE CLEAN AIR ACT | Eagle Environmental Howard Parsons of Holland, Pa, was sentenced on July 21, in U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia for his c eagleenvironmental.squarehook.com
.....
I wonder if the punishment fits the crime... He sure paid dearly! What about getting someone close to him from a heavy equipment repair place to go check it out. There could be something wrong with it he hasn't noticed yet. A track tensioner with a bad grease seal can pump up but yet tracks get loose very fast. I think that model has a split link so the repair isn't that bad the job of course he gets a little tougher on a 977 . I use a skid steer with a stump bucket and some chains to help pull those tracks around. A 60-in oak tree would be a lot of digging and pushing for 977 I hope you don't have too many of them. Size sometimes can really make a difference. A 955 would sure be a lot more friendly or machine to own. You may have to dig pretty deep around the big trees before you can push them over with the 955. Now that I'm 65 the idea of cheaper parts that are a lot lighter does sound good. I love my big machines and I can't see parting with them. Getting in and out of tight places makes the 955 shine I would think.
Thanks again Cat977, super helpful as always. I looked into have someone go and look at for $500 bucks it would cost, they are in his area. Definitely could be a good assurance. I looked into him a bit more he has quite the list of charges one of which includes adultering goods, call me weird for looking people I feel like there are less and less honest people these days. He hasn't really been in too much trouble as of late, most them are I think are well over 10 years old, aside one from minor one. Definitely could be something wrong with the track, I've got a Kioti CK20s, it's a powerful little machine with a front loader that could really help work on of these machines and lift parts. I've used to drag fairly large trees around but it tends to bog down when they get binded or stuck in the ground a little but I usually can get them unstuck and drag them right along. As far as the Oaks, I've got not very many that I would need a tree surgeon to drop for me (close to structures), my thought was using the dozer to relocate them and pickup or push them to their final destination (the burn pit). I've got also some land that's already cleared but overgrown with wild bushes and shrubs that'd a 955l would be great for cleaning up. I also love shooting guns, I do almost daily, I've some nice dirt piled from an excavator that I had before I sold that it could be great for making a nice berm as well as moving dirt around the property. But as far as digging them up, aside from a few I'd be dropping most of them anyway and probably just digging the stumps up after The other options I've been considering is a decent skid steer with a grapple, to me these are bit more surgical though and not as powerful, but they are faster and get the job done quicker, but can't move as much as dirt at once. There also more expensive and just as hard to find in good shape for the right price as track loader.
Demolition is about the hardest environment for a track loader. Do you have the serial number? It could be a 955K with L stickers with a D330 engine. I personally would be pretty leery of someone who spent time in jail and had several charges against him. Last thought is $11,000 seems pretty low for a good 955K/L. Kind of the if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Exposing people to asbestos is pretty serious.
Was he young and unaware of that fact? Well that excuse never saved anybody. Was he so dumb that he didn't know they use steam in the drying drum rollers in a paper mill and that surrounding those boilers and covering the pipes that carry the steam to the dryer drum rollers is basically always covered in asbestos. Had the owner of that plant already removed all of that asbestos because he damn well knew about it . Was this a corporate dodge of “nobody told me”. Of course that would be why no owners were mentioned in the news article about the sentencing of this man's criminal activity. Then again maybe they found some fibers from some floor tile that nobody had thought about or some of that corrugator roofing that has some fibers in it. Of course that asbestos is contained pretty well unlike insulation, but still when you bust it up some fibers do get loose. I guess there's a lesson in the fact that it's always the guy that does the busting up that will be for sure to blame and I can bet this guy won't do it again. Then again maybe he’s a crook and worse and it would be best if we stone him, and be rid of him. Who is wise enough to throw the first one? That sure is a nise looking 955L! I hope under that nice straight metal are some good moving parts!
No clue, I didn't ask him about it. He's 70 now, that article says it was 26 years ago, so he was in the his 40's, I'd suspect. Old enough to know better if you ask me, I'd imagine the cost associated with removing material like that responsibility would be rather high. Perhaps he bid too low on the job initially, and didn't realize there complexities associated with what you had mentioned with it being a paper plant? He could have been over his head, but still that's not an excuse, I am not an expert this matter but I'd imagine there are always reasonable alternatives to do the "right" or socially acceptable thing. Only other thing I could think is that he was being greedy, knew about it and chose not to do the right thing to fill his bank account. I am sure if I were to ask him about it, he would have all kinds of reasons and excuses as to why he did what he did or handled the demolition irresponsibly. I guess I kind of threw the first stone by posting about him, it was a long time ago that happened. The guy is in 70 now and it looks like he selling off all of his equipment maybe to retire, who knows. Can I say he got smarter with age, I'd like too but that's not always the case. I don't think I'll be buying anything from him especially with aforementioned terms we have in place and not seeing it in person or meeting the fella first. He hasn't really been in any real trouble since 2004, but there are a couple charges he's got that make me question his honesty and integrity, but who knows I guess some people can change. FORGERY-UNAUTHORIZED ACT IN WRITING FRAUDULENT ASSIGN CERT TITLE SEC INT CERT THEFT BY DECEP-FALSE IMPRESSION MAKE FALSE APPLI FOR TITLE REG FAIL TO DELIVER TITLE FRAUD ALTER/FORG/COUNTER TITLE REG INS DEC BUS PRACT-ADULTERATED GOODS Those are from like 2004, but they all relate to selling equipment, so I think I am going to pass on this one.... What do you think? Thanks
What I'm surprised about is it's a 50-year-old machine and it still looks so good. I'm not one that's big on painting things and this things got a finish like patina. If I wanted that size machine I'd buy it, the price is right, but it has to check out mechanically. The newer rear engine machines can spin on a dime. These older ones that take a while but if you're out on your own property maybe that doesn't matter so much. I do like the feel of the 977 It's throttling up down using the power shift transmission. Come to think I did actually go test drive a 973 once, have to say I didn't quite like it. Great machine productive but I wasn't used to that constant wine of the hydraulic pump. As far as I know you bring the engine up to production speed and you just leave it. Nothing wrong with that, simple, but it wasn't what I was used to. You should take the serial number to Caterpillar make sure there's no red flags about buying parts. If it was stolen I'd say they'd be a red flag at the parts counter. There's no titles as far as I know for these old machines only that if it's reported stolen. I'm not a trusting fellow when it comes to business. I tell the truth even when it hurts. I can't stand deception. I can't barely live with doing the wrong thing. Get it out in the open, confess it, get it over with. That's been my policy. As long as things are on the up and up and legal that's just legal to me. So there's somebody else doesn't think it's right... I think they should go work in politics straighten the whole thing out otherwise it's just an opinion, and that's getting harder and harder to have. I can't I can't bear to hurt other people and I can't bear to hurt the earth. I'm not willing to move into a cave and grow my own food just yet. I'm curious about how long he's owned this machine seems to have never been abused by looking at the outside. if a guy's abusing a machine he usually ends up denting up the outside of it. When the outsides all dented up I'm concerned about what's going on in the inside and that's where the money is. Yep it's old but they don't make them like that anymore and there's damn few of them that look like that left from when they did make them. To me it's like an antique collector's item. I think there is a lot more moving parts in the old machines but if they're in good shape I think they're more reliable, they give you a lot more of an indicator before they go bad unlike some type of lockout sensor. I would like to see a picture of the pedals and the floorboards that would tell a lot about how much use it's had across those 50 years.
Thanks, Ill try to get some pictures
here' another one that's about 2 hours away:
This one doesn't have rock guards so you can see the rollers are just about to hit the hinge pin bosses on the rails/chains. The bottoms of the chain rides on those rollers and you can see how thin they're getting from wear. If you're not doing a lot of work for other people you may never have to replace the chains on the eBay machine. If the mechanicals were all the same I would think this machine is worth less than half of the other one.
Man you know your stuff!
The 2nd one is newer. You can tell by the corner guard bucket teeth. It may need undercarriage but it certainly isn't worth half the money. Undercarriage is the 1st thing to check but there are a bunch of other expensive to repair components to also check out. The 1st one is suspect because of the really low price. Is it burning a lot of oil, trans. slipping or needs steering clutches/brakes, etc. The price just seems below what a good operating 955K/L should bring. I think $15 or $16K would be more in the price range of a decent running and operating 955. We don't know the price of the 2nd machine or much about it other than a few pics. Sometimes putting a new undercarriage on is a better option on a used machine and also why machines in good condition are sold. The owner just doesn't want the cost or doesn't have enough work to justify the cost of replacing the undercarriage.
There's a whole bunch of guys that are real experts on here, they just aren't retired or not in the mood for writing. I'm a lightweight and hopefully somebody will correct me if I'm too far off. I'm not quite sure the bucket is original maybe that was bought later. Check the pedals you can't count on the hour meter being accurate. I think the eBay machine is newer because it has the vibration dampers on the mounts for the rollover protection. Be aware I'm only giving opinions! I'm not right. The guy buying the machine's right. He needs to buy the thing that's right for him. If this all turns into a big pissing contest instead of putting our heads together and figuring things out it will take some of the fun out of it. Then again sometimes a heated debate is fun. I'm not sure how long the undercarriage will last on the last one maybe getting a price on a new undercarriage would help figure things out. I always like doing math, I just don't like doing it for somebody else lol. Hell I'd like to watch somebody else change my undercarriage that'd be fun too! I buy the parts and watch them put them on. I love work so much I could watch it all day... Looking at the floor pedals I would guess somebody rode their feet pretty hard on the pedals by comparing it to the floor just behind the pedals. It would be nice to see more of the floor. It doesn't look like there's much wear there. Then again was the machine rode around in a clean area or a dirty dusty rocky area. That grit would make a difference. There sure is a lot more wear on my favorite machine. This feels like detective work. Thing is no matter what you pick you'll probably keep it for a long time unless it's piece of junk then you may want to get rid of it. Choosing is a tough job.
So writing it is. So my fancy is straight metal not necessarily how much the machine can work or how cheap it is. Given a choice. This one from ebay could be scrap metal for all I know and all the 955's and 977's are very old and will Off Road and others keep selling parts for them? You can buy repair parts but it's hard to buy a bunch of new straight metal hence the deduction in value points. Why does a man sell something... who knows could be that he's 70 years old and he's had enough of working. Why does he put a low price on it? Maybe he really doesn't care that much and he hasn't checked the market. Why do I care... actually I don't.... Not fully true, I like helping people. Those pedals are pretty worn. I actually like the thrill of buying something at auction. Sometimes you can get a real hot deal and sometimes you can get a real bucket of scrap but it is exciting. Best deal ever 80,000 lb off-road truck for $2,500 and everything worked and it still does. I wish I was smarter, more humble, and have more space to store yellow iron! Well childness aside. I haven't bought anything for a long time now and there isn't a whole lot of need for it anymore. But our new friend here seems to have a need for it and some land to run it on. Doesn't seem to be a true hobbyist, maybe it's for a few side jobs. Doesn't sound like he's going into business, at least not with a 955 to make a living. But he doesn't want to pick up something he needs to work on anytime soon. He has enough money to accomplish that if he doesn't make a misstep. I will try to put my collecting antiques prejudice aside as best I can. I equate hurting the earth to say something like a old employer who dumped 55 gallon drums of solvent for say several decades in the back 40. 3 deep wells and lots of fines later... Just before my time. You do it because it's cheap and convenient and it leaves lasting damage. Time for the stoning... I really think with the right people in charge... it would never work... someone would abuse that program too!
I think your just partial to 977s
lol. I am funny. What do you do with the 80K truck?
Highly unlikely a GP bucket was changed but in demolition anythings possible. Really need serial numbers to determine the year. As far as ROPS, back in the 70's they weren't mandatory and/or there were several aftermarket manufacturers of ROPS. A lot of the attachment builders also made ROPS. Tuboscope(sp) was a popular example. Used to see a lot of ROPS taken off machines and sold seperately at the RB auctions.
I thought it was me that was funny... Wait, they said I was funny... I don't think they meant funny haha though. Maybe they said I was just silly. Sometimes I just feel like being silly, what's wrong with that. That's the trouble a lot of times I just don't know what people mean. Maybe I can't figure out if they're being mean or I just can't understand what they mean. Life can be hard, no sense in whining. I'm not partial to the 977. I'm in love with it. Yuk... couldn't resist. Just love the rhythm of making it sing. Running the throttle up and down and that beautiful power shift, so smooth, so elegant. So very long ago I was looking for a skid steer. I didn't find the skid steer but I did find a 1959 TD15 for $3,500 bucks. Couldn't help it, bought it, 33,000 lb of good old Drott skid shovel! Dry clutches with a overcenter master clutch, two hand lever steer with a straight up stick shift kind of down the middle in front of them, 2 foot brakes for helping the steering and in your spare time you ran the bucket. You could sing in a different note with that machine. Damn. The truck she does do some work maybe… not a lot but it's kind of handy pulling up 100,000 lb of dirt in it. But I think I just like that 500 horsepower caterpillar diesel just screaming up the hills. It's been a crazy life... starting out as a kid with building little wind up paper model airplanes then working on full size airplanes then working on paper mills, then working in power plants. Holy s*** This is just a hobby. I truly respect you guys that have done that Earth moving and fixing equipment for a living... good folks.
Must have been a slow day today.
You don't know the half of it, and I don't even want to talk about a quarter of it. I'm kind of just glad it's over with. And that's enough said of all of that.
Actually I think it's just that I'm partial to yellow.... Anyway I was putting in a good deal of time with the skid steer and it's hand steering and thinking a little about what you said Georgia. It has tracks over tires and I can sure scamper around and do a lot of stuff fast and easy where as that big beast 977 can get a lot of heavy stuff done but it's not near as nimble... Of course. I tried out the 973 at a finished work site. Yeah I roughen up things a little bit but I didn't want to spoil their job. But I also didn't take enough time to get used to it. One thing the TD-15 had was a great single-handed bucket control. It was better than John Deere I don't know maybe Drott died with those patents! Yes fear mongering, I'm afraid of those things that I don't yet understand well, computers, electronics, sensors, and how they all fit together to make it tick. I especially worry about old loose corroded connections given a fellow fits. I think the old machines as long as they aren't worn out and have good clean lubrication will go along pretty trouble-free. But I don't have experience with the newer ones. With better visibility and balance, counter-rotating tracks, less controls to manipulate... You may do laps around a 977 as she's getting her job done. I'm not sure just which one you'd want on a old farmstead. Something simple that could sit around for a long time with no great concern and know that when you went to it it start it up to do what you needed... I know these old things have for me, but maybe the new ones would too. I'm guessing with a newer one if you pretty much always kept them dry and stored indoors it would do it too. Well into their old age. I don't know if I'll ever be in the buying mood again (for crawlers anyway) and I see one of those newer machines up for grabs I'm going to get in it try it out and look it over a little more than last time....
There is a lot of wisdom in your words, Cat is counting there numbers and slowly but surely doing what they can to cancel the older tractors. Just this week I had them shoot me a line of .... telling me how they don't support the older hose types and reusable fittings. Made new hoses for the blown one and I see the inside diameter is smaller. Less flow. What do you do... another $500 down the drain for a hose pop. When working for yourself or on production pay it is nice to get the job down as fast as possible, so quicker machines make more and can save you time for other projects. But reliable and the ability to repair a tractor is worth it's weight in gold. I faced the same issues with fuel usage and operating cost. I like a tractor that will work on partial throttle. They new skid steer want wot. And then more wot to clean the filters. Does not seem to be an effective way to save fuel. Looks like you got some rock on that site
Anything hydrostatic should generally be run full throttle. It's the easiest on all the hydrostat components. I'd rather use a little more fuel than have to repair or replace hydrostat components prematurely.
Hey Everyone, wanted to say thanks for thoughts, insights, and help. I settled on a 2017 Bobcat T550 full loaded with heat and ac, radio / backup camera. Has about 2500 hours on it. I've been using around my property without any issues. It's an absolute tank, love it! And it's versatile which is nice, can fit in-between trees and things easily. I skidded a pretty huge tree to my burn pile easily and also cleaned up a tangled brush mess that I had sitting far too long in just a few hours. Was thinking about getting a grapple for it but honestly didn't really need it for the project I already tackled but could be nice to have. Other than that, I've felt like a kid on Christmas morning since I've brought it home! Thanks again
Grapple buckets are awesome. If you need to move trees or brush you will really like having one. I got one of the better made cheap ones and have used the heck out of it.
Good to know! I was thinking that one could definitely be useful once I really start cutting some trees down and up. Mind sharing where you got yours from? I've seen a few on eBay that are nicely priced but one has to wonder of the quality... I just need to find a manual for the T550 next, the guy said it was serviced recently but I always like to do it myself when I get something just to be sure. Any items that you guys would recommend servicing first and foremost on these?
I bought mine from a small equipment dealer somewhere in Tennessee I think. I saw it advertised on FB marketplace for $1850 as I recall so it was a cheaper one. I think it was supposedly made in Canada, but the cylinders and quick connects were probably made in China I'm sure. For home duty is has served us well, although I would not buy one like that for day to day professional use. Prior to the grapple I was using my forks to move trees and brush. The grapple made for much more efficient work for sure. I would definitely do the oil in the finals ( I have a wheeled skid loader but I assume the tracked ones have oil like the bigger machines do) and all the filters along with the engine oil, hydraulic oil and coolant. That should give you a pretty good baseline to start from I would think. I put a piece of duct tape on the inside of my engine cover to note the date and engine hours for things that can't get noted on a filter like the coolant and final oils. I also keep a spreadsheet for each piece of equipment in my computer with all maintenance and repairs for each peace of equipment in my computer.
Be very careful not to drive over or turn on stumps, rocks or anything else with sharp edges. It will destroy the rubber tracks. Also try to keep the undercarriage as clean as possible and clean it out as needed. Rubber tracks won't take the abuse steel tracks do. If you don't have huge tree's it should work good for you.
Dave it’s funny you mentioned keeping the undercarriage clean. I just spent about three hours yesterday pressure washing and scraping out the inside of the chassis on my skid steer. There are drain holes on either side of the center chain case that got packed up with muddy swamp clay at some point. I had a repair to do and I noticed about ten inches of mud packed around both rear axle tubes and water in the bottom when I tilted the cab. What a mess. Clean now for the moment. Lol
I actually noticed that it was riding rougher than usual today. Funny you all mentioned the undercarriage, it definitely needs cleaned already. It's clogged up pretty good with wet dirt that's dried at this point, I am definitely attributing the roughness to it needing a good cleaning because it was super smooth before I really started using. I've hit a few roots that were under dirt couldn't see them, and backed in a tree stump already... I got jolted pretty good. The lap bar is there for a reason. I also ran it a bit too long while it was on E and clogged the fuel filter, so I've got to run out to bobcat tomorrow and get a filter, I suppose I might as well get the rest of the filter and things while I am there. Ill hit it with the pressure real good tomorrow too, it needs it in all the nooks and crannies
Be careful pushing water into areas like seals and bearings and electrical connectors with the pressure washer. It doesn't take a high pressure (narrow width) nozzle to break up the mud and muck. You've already learned a key lesson too. Never let your Diesel engines run low on fuel, bad things tend to happen. Since the fuel tank is low anyway, you may want to take the hose off from the intake side of the filter (before you put the new filter on), drain what's left of the old fuel, and flush the tank with some fresh fuel to make sure the tank itself is clean. Again that way you will know you have a clean tank with clean fuel and it doesn't take a lot of work to do a quick flush.
Got it, thank you! I have some Fluid Film I could spray on it, and I also heard that something like WD-40 is good for areas where you don’t want water to settle. I was building some jumps on our moto track, and while I was using the machine, the gauge dropped as it tilted, making it hard to tell how low the fuel really was. I definitely need to fill up before I head out there to work. I started to notice some hard starting and got a low fuel pressure rail code. I bypassed the Bobcat filter and installed a smaller one (just for testing), and it fired right up. I was relieved it wasn’t something more serious.
I can tell when my skid steer is getting really low on fuel by the gauge. If it still bounces around from empty to a little over the empty it has 20-30 minutes left. If the gauge stops bouncing it's almost empty. I'd much rather stop the machine and get some fuel than run out and have to prime it. It has a Kubota engine and can be a royal pain to prime by the book. I just recently changed the filter. I pumped some fuel from my slip tank into an old clear distilled water bottle I had completely dried out. I didn't see any water or sediment in the fuel so I filled the filter from the outside holes. I installed the filter, turned the petcock back on and it started right up and didn't quit after 15 seconds. One time I changed the filter in cooler weather without first filling it with diesel. What a nightmare. I turned the bleeder screw out and it started but quit 15 seconds later. I spent over half an hour getting it primed. I even took a small fuel hose off and tried to pour some diesel into it. Finally got it going and decided I'm going through that again. Now I always start it and let it warm up before changing the filter and prefill the filter. Not worth the hassle if it doesn't prime.
I changed the fuel filter and think I got about 3–5 hours of use at most before it started stalling out again and showing the 1076 code for low fuel pressure at the rail. I added an inline filter again—a small one for smaller engines—and it started right up. I suspect there’s some debris floating around in the tank. I did some research and found that others have encountered what they describe as black algae or something similar, causing the same problem. The downside is that to remove the tank, the engine has to be taken out. I ordered Bobcat filters from Amazon for about $100, along with some larger metal inline filters. My plan is to use the smaller inline filters as pre-filters and change them out when they get clogged until the debris is gone. This will prevent the more expensive filters from needing frequent replacements. I also noticed that someone had a very short pickup tube going into the gas tank, which had a curve in it, so I suspect it wasn’t reaching the bottom of the tank. I think about 5 inches of the hose had a wet mark when I submerged it, me thinks the tank is deeper than that. It’s possible this unusual fuel pickup tube could also be causing a fuel starvation issue. It looks like they used a brass flange fitting, similar to one from the Home Depot aisle, to help weigh it down into the tank. I ordered a longer pickup tube specifically for Bobcats to replace it, and it also has a screened filter on the end. This may cause more problems, as it could clog quickly, but we’ll see. Hey! What’s a new (used) piece of heavy equipment without issues? I guess if the issue persists with new filters, something else is going on. But I am thinking it's just trash clogging things up. It's just weird that every time I bypass the bobcat filter with the smaller inline one it starts right up. And it did the same when replaced the original bobcat filter. Thoughts? I busted the old fuel filter open, there black **** all over it everywhere
Sounds like it could be black algae. Is there a drain on the fuel tank so you could flush it without having to remove it?
Either that or pump tank down to nothing and flush it a few times with the same fuel filtered thru cloth. Add a Algae/Biocide to that old fuel to reduce the built up crud in the tank. Only other option is removal.
I hope it was one designed for use with diesel. A lot of those small inline filters that fit equipment such as lawnmowers are only suitable for use with gas and will turn to mush inside if used with diesel for any length of time. There is a NAPA 3972 (or equivalent) that is designed for diesel service. Have you removed all the plugs/fittings in the head of the OEM Bobcat filter housing and checked the passages are not blocked.? It could also be that the inline filter you used is a much more coarse filtration and does not plug so easily. the latest generation of engines requires filtration down to something like 2 microns to protect some very expensive HP fuel injection components. I would suggest that you proceed with caution.
Thanks! I haven't tried cleaning the housing yet, but I did run compressed air from the tank feed with the filter disconnected. The flow seems fine when I press the primer bulb, but I will check that. This morning, I got it idling with the replacement Bobcat filter I initially bought and an inline prefilter. I want to see if it catches anything. It keeps stalling out, but I keep restarting it. I did notice some bubbles in the inline filter; I'm not sure if that's normal. This is all I can do until I get the parts in. I'm curious if anyone can give me an idea of the type and amount of pressure or force that the fuel filter pulls to supply the engine. Is it minimal or significant? I would think it would need to be quite a bit to pull through a fuel filter with a high filtration rate like these. Also, here’s a pic of the inside of the filter that was on the machine when I bought it. I have no idea how many hours it had on it.
I wonder if that black deposit is what most people would call fuel algae, but actually isn't........ Hydrocarbon Utilizing Micro-organisms (aka humbugs) are a life-form that lives in water but feeds on the hydrocarbons in fuel, depositing their excrement as a black slimy substance that gets trapped in fuel filters. That is the reason it's so important to keep fuel tanks drained and clear of any water on a regular basis. It's hard to tell from the photos but did the filter media feel slimy.?
That sounds gross! haha, I didn't feel it to see if it was slimy but I can next I'm in the garage. From what I've gather, I dont think there is an easy way to drain diesel out of these. But that doesn't really there isn't a way. And of course, I just put $80 worth of Diesel in the thing... The bugs would make sense though, water does puddle underneath the cabin. They could hang out there and go into the tank to feed.
No, they're not that big. That's why people think they are algae, but algae needs sunlight to propagate and no-one has put windows in a fuel tank yet. Humbugs are also micro-organisms of a similar microscopic size to algae but they can't live in fuel, only in water, plus they can live in the dark. One good way to keep water out of a fuel tank, apart from taking care when refuelling, is to always keep the tank filled right to the top every time the machine is parked after work. That reduces the air volume above the fuel and makes the chances of condensation in the top of the tank producing water in the bottom. Does your fuel tank not have a drain plug in the bottom for the purpose of draining water/sediment from the fuel.?
Gotcha, I didn't know that. Thanks Nige. No drain that I am aware of. Everything I've found shows people using a pump to in the inlet somewhere to remove the fuel. Doesn't seem easy on these. The tank is also molded underneath of the hydraulic system and engine. So either have to be completely removed to take the tank out or access it easily.
It's been idling for awhile now. It stalled out about 3 times, now it's been running for awhile. I went out and bled the fuel filter and hurt some air come out. I wonder if maybe I didn't get all the air out?
I use Power Services Bio Kleen for diesel fuel. I've never had to use a kill dose, but I use a maintenance dose because I have a lot of old machines that sit around quite a bit. I put it in along with Lucas fuel treatment in the storage tank just before I get fuel delivered and that spreads it through all the machines and the tank. Ain't cheap but neither is frustration and time. A person that's in the business and getting fresh fuel pumped through everything regularly probably doesn't have to worry about it, (I think). I get it from farm and fleet but you can look it up on Amazon ect. If you use a kill dose you're probably going to get a lot of crud coming out and plug up some filters. It's sad if they're so cheap not to put a drain in the bottom... Well I guess they think the guy can always just pull the motor and get to it and do a proper job!! Shame on you boys... It would be nice to pull out what you can first. My understanding is you need to kill all of the bugs off and keep them gone and that once they get going like this it is a real pain. I imagine the guy that sold it wasn't using it very much. That's why he sold it or he was having the same troubles you are, got frustrated and sold it. I feel for you... Sounds like a good machine. When I have the time/patience to wait for drier conditions there isn't as much track cleaning. Digging is easier with more moisture so I get the hard stuff uprooted then. Compaction needs enough for what your doing. A good way to judge is to ball some in your hand. Its somewhere between falling through your fingers and squeezing through them.
What I always called Algae issues is a Biologic, as Nige Noted as Humbugs are anaerobic bacteria. Can survive almost anywhere in anything.
Ill get some of the additive and run it through. Not sure what his intention was on selling, he was in the process of finishing his house and garage and needed money. It ran great at first for a few days, then I think I ran it too low on Diesel. I think it would have happened either way though eventually. It definitely had been sitting, he was just using it around his property. Who knows he could been replacing the filter every so often as needed. It's been idling for quite a while now without issue, even was able to ramp it up some. Im going to let it keep running with the prefilter. It's definitely caught some stuff and can see particulate in it. If I need to run prefilters and just trash them as needed than so be it. I also found the bobcat filters for a bit cheaper, so I can just use and replace them as needed as well until hopefully all of or most of the crap is gone out of the tank. Pulling the tank is definitely last resort. Definitely a horrible tank design for sure...
Particulate I think of as dirt or rust. The biologic stuff is like a growth, a slime, Black color is what I hear. I can't tell you what to look for cuz I've never had it, never seen it. Your pick up tube shouldn't come off the bottom of the tank. It should come off higher up so crud has a place to settle out. Too much crud, too much kicking around and it comes up and ends up going in the tube anyway. Sounds like you've rode it pretty hard maybe nobody's done that for a while maybe a bunch of dirt got settled on the bottom of the tank and you kicked it loose. Plus you had it run down low and you pulled it into your filter and maybe farther. So maybe things will work themselves out over time. It's hard on the injector system pumps because that's what they are, high compression pumps, piston pumps I think. To run out of fuel is to run low on lubricant, because the fuel is used as a lubricant. You may be right this may be stemming back to running out of fuel not to say there's any damage.
By the color of the machine it was more than likely in the Sunbelt rental fleet so it wasn't taken care of in its earlier life. Sunbelt changes fluids and the customers beat the hell out of them. We had a case of the bugs in a mid 2000's T250. Dealt us fits of misery. This machine had the primer bulb on the fuel line to prime the upper filter. Great hand strengthening device... Here's how we got rid of it: Applied a kill dose Ran the machine Changed plugged filters Top off with clean fuel Added Sea Foam Ran machine Changed plugged filters Rinse and repeat about 10 times with an occasional dose of compressed air down the fuel line back to the tank to clear debris out. I just went and bought a bunch of Baldwin filters and kept them on the truck until we finally cleaned the system out. Best of luck, it's very achievable just frustrating.
Great advice there; I appreciate it. It definitely keeps getting clogged. It will idle—just idle—for 2+ hours, actually, and then I had to turn it off. It started right back up, and I drove it around a little. Then, when I went to start it again, nothing happened. I put the inline filter back on, and it started. After waiting a little bit, I put the inline filter and the Bobcat filter back on, primed it thoroughly, and now it's idling again. I’m thinking the priming is breaking loose debris in the filter, possibly. This is definitely frustrating. With just a simple filter on there and priming the bulb, it gets super firm to the point where it can't be squeezed anymore. However, with the Bobcat filter, I feel like I could keep squeezing it for a very long time, as if the fuel is having a hard time being pushed through it. Amazon has 6 BC filters for $100, which is cheaper than buying them directly from BC at $100 each, but they’re probably Chinese. They could be good for clearing the biologic stuff out.
I would be careful with cheap Chinese filters. The last thing you want to do is gum up your injection pump or injectors. If you want to save money on filters I’d go with Baldwin filters like CM1995 said, or I also like Fleetguard and Baldwin filters as well.
I got creative and didn't feel like waiting for Amazon. So I went back to bobcat and got another $100 fuel filter, went to O'Reilly and got a clear view edelbrock 100 micron inline fuel filter (good quality) and also name brand wix metal larger inline 13 micron fuel filter. Running the 100 micron to the 13 and then to the bobcat filter which is 7 micron, I believe. Started the machine and used it for awhile without issue. The 100 micron will catch the bigger stuff, can actually see a bug in there. 13 medium stuff and then the bobcat filter will remain clean and do it's thing as it's the most important one. Also shocked the tank with biokleen, I thought I'd post the picture here just incase anyone else has the same problem. If you look closely may or may not be able to see it but the Clearview filter has already caught quite a bit
That seems like a great approach and a way to save filters. How is the machine working now? I'm learning a lot from this thread as I knew about algae in diesel fuel, but not actual bugs.
Glad your learning something. It worked for like 2 hours, I turned it off and wouldn't turn back on.
Algae cannot propagate/reproduce without sunlight, of which there is precious little in a fuel tank. What you and many other people refer to as "algae" is actually Hydrocarbon Utilizing Micro-organisms, aka humbugs, not algae. It's also important to re-state that these organisms don't live in fuel. They live in water and feed on the hydrocarbons in the fuel at the fuel/water interface. That's why it's so important to keep water out of the fuel tank.
Run the machine and get it as low as you can then use small 12volt fuel pump, use small rubber tubing threw the fill pipe or connect it to the line coming out of the tank, pump out the old fuel into 5 gallon buckets, pour 93 octane gas into the tank suck that out then put in fresh diesel in and your ready to go. Use white buckets so you can see the humbugs / algea in the contaminated fuel and also see the fuel get clear once you have ran enough fresh gas into the tank and pumped out the sludge. You can have 2 to 4 gallons of gas in a full tank of diesel and it will still run. Been there done it. But pump it out to be safe. You don't need anything special other than a new set of filters once you clean the tank All these filters and bioside.... lol You can even use the machine primer pump to clear the old fuel DC12V Self priming 4-7 PSI Electric Gas Fuel Transfer Fuel Pump for carbureted | eBay Description: This electronic fuel pumps are great as stand-alone or booster pumps, are self-priming, and have a simple 2-wire design. They work with 12 V negative-ground systems and include mounting hardware. NOTE: 1. Forbid to pump the water, alchol and the fuel contains many impurities. 2... www.ebay.com
Thanks, Georgia Iron: I actually pumped the tank out the best I could today. I wish I had seen your note about the gasoline, though. I've buttoned it all back up. There's really no good way to get the diesel out of the Bobcat T550 tank. I was able to pull out the fuel gauge sensor and use the hole it sat in to remove the old diesel. I removed probably about 10 gallons; I can't say that I got every little bit out, as I just don't see it being possible without taking the tank out. But I did the best I could. I then put about 15 gallons total back into the tank and pumped that out as well. I didn't have a white bucket, sadly—all I had were ones that were already dirty. But I put a big black trash bag in one; the diesel that came out did look foggy, but it was also treated with BioKleen beforehand. There was also a film at the top; it didn't look super dirty, but honestly, it didn’t look horrible. I did see a few black specs in the tank, as well as some general debris. I couldn't really get a good look inside except through the hole. I've attached a picture looking down into the sensor hole. I think the sludge you are seeing might be mud on the bottom of the tank, but I don't think I remember seeing that after I flushed the tank, so it could have been inside. I'm not sure how thick the plastic is and whether mud on the bottom of the tank could be seen from the inside like that. At this point, I've got a ton of filters coming in; I'll run them and change them out as needed. I'm not sure if there's anything else I can do at this point or if the problem is something else.
This is interesting, Clogged Fuel Filters and Cannot Solve the Problem? - Dieselcraft Clogged diesel fuel filters. How do you clean a clogged fuel filter? Clogged filter causes poor engine performance. dieselcraft.com "The tank was drained, washed and this residue was found. It was send to a lab for identification. No it’s not rubber it is soot from the engine. The engine has 5 of 6 bad fuel injector seals and this was sending engine soot back down the return line to the fuel tank. So as we cleaned the fuel and the tanks, the engine was creating the problem as the engine was running." Any ever experience that phenomenon?
That looks like humbug's have been there - slimy looking mud poop. That stuff is what caused all the time, money and frustration on our T250 I described upthread. Devil of a substance in a fuel system.
Devil, for sure. I'm just thankful there are $20 aftermarket filters available for these things. Should be here tomorrow so I can hopefully get some work done. I might as well test the injectors too, it's easy enough.
Hard to say. It could be dirt on the outside. The white bucket is the only way you will know if the fuel is clean. Using a clear jar and a light does not work as well as the white bucket. I love older machines because they will eat fuel that newer ones cannot due to tighter fuel system tolerances. I will buy Rotella 15w 40 Oil in a white 5 gallon bucket or buy hydraulic fluid from tractor supply for a clean white bucket. I keep one always around to check older fuel from drums, and nurse tanks. It stays spotless and I don't use it for other purposes. What Nige said about water is right. The problems always seem to have water in them. I have also had it happen in John Deere Hydraulic oil in my farm tractor. It has a screen and it came out literally covered in slime. Gas cleaned it up no problem... Soot from an Oring sounds like a rare load of BS.
A white bucket would have helped for sure; I probably should have grabbed one. From what I could tell, the diesel really didn't look that bad. Did it have some debris in it? For sure, I’d expect that. But I saw very little to no black slime, unlike what I found on the fuel filters. The black stuff on the filters really didn't feel too slimy to me, it felt like black stuff with diesel on it, was it slippery yeah, but I think that's because of the diesel. You’d think that since these things are clogged within 1-2 hours of use (three so far), I’d at least see some diesel with a streak of black or muck somewhere. I poured it out slowly and used clear lines to pump it out, but I didn’t see any. I only spotted one spec of black inside the tank. It just didn’t seem that bad to me, and I thought even a standard fuel filter should do the job just fine and keep the machine running for a while. Maybe the white bucket would have helped me see something I missed. I poured all the diesel onto a cloth slowly and didn't see anything that was a black that had mixed with the diesel at all
Now I am curious how a failed o-ring on an injector can cause soot to get back into the fuel system and clog fuel filters. I've been researching this, and it actually seems common, but I can't wrap my head around how this could happen since the fuel return is on the top of the injector itself. I’m not saying this is my issue, but I am just super curious about how that even happens. I think I understand that soot is caused by a rich fuel mixture, but how it gets back into the fuel return (which either goes to the tank or back to the filter directly, depending on the temperature, for the Doosan D24) is far beyond me. But it definitely is a thing, yet I can't wrap my head around it
If it makes you feel even a tiny bit better, I had to pump out about 35 gallons of diesel from my dozer tank this evening after my dozer started acting up. I need to douche out the fuel tank to get the sticks and other various debris that the previous owners/operators thought were necessary to allow into the fuel tank out, to stop a repeating fuel starvation issue. I feel your pain.....
Yeah I think does make feel a little bit better. I am starting to lean more towards an injector issues now... I did a static test by disconnecting the hoses for the injector return and connecting clear tubing and 3 of the 4 hoses filled up quickly within like 3-4 seconds of turning the key. One injector hose, the 4th one did not fill up at all. So now I am thinking I've got 3 bad injectors, and the fuel filters contamination is a result of the bad injectors. Changing the filter, the machine starts it could be because there is more diesel flowing with less restriction, the machine will run but likely lean until the filter clogs again. Sound about right?
Did you put the new pickup assembly in the tank yet? Also when the engine dies after running for a couple of hours have you checked to see if there is fuel coming out of the outlet side of the filter while cranking it? I’m just curious if the filters were actually clogging up to the point of starving the engine for fuel.
I haven't put the new one in yet but plan on it. I checked it, it seemed fine, the length and all. It had been working prior, so not sure if it's part of the problem but I am going to say probably not. Yes, I've done that several times. Fuel always sprays out of the fuel filter outlet and the bulb gets firm when line is connected. I spoke with my local bobcat dealer, it seems they are leaning towards injectors as well, I mean the tubes had fluid in them with about 4-5 seconds of cranking. From what I've seen they should only fill up a 3-4 inches at most with 10 seconds of cranking. And then that last one didn't do much at all, but I didn't even try to crank it for 10 seeing as they were already almost full. I am thinking the filter is clogging up with soot or oil or something from the failing injectors, and I've also seen where it is actually common for diesel fuel filters to turn black
Maybe send a message to thepumpguysc and see what his opinion is, or ask him to chime in on this thread. He’s an expert on injectors and injection pumps.
Perfect, Ill send him message and see what he says or try to get him to take a look here!
I sent them a message, hopefully they respond
I pulled the injectors and they look horrendous... No wonder low fuel pressure at the rail, they're probably severely clogged, causing all the diesel to flow out the return line resulting in pressure loss. Orings look fine, but this could definitely be why the fuel filter is covered in black and getting clogged so easily
Pretty wild bobcat wanted $3600 for 4 injectors, I found them for $1000 online, OEM new
Update: I finally found a guy nearby that was willing to provide me some of his expertise. He agrees that the injectors are backflowing way to much fuel which could be attributing to the black buildup on the fuel filter. I am going to clean the lines and various fuel components, slap the injectors and hopefully call it day. Ill keep everyone posted. Thanks
Here is the fuel pick up tube someone had installed in it, i replaced it
If yours was like mine (that I’ve replaced twice since owning the machine) they are not expensive at all to just get the right parts and do it the right way.
Yeah, no clue why people cheap out on some things. Maybe they were troubleshooting it in the field, lost the original hose and had to make something real quick and then forget about it and ordering the correct part.
Alright, so $300+ later and three trips an hour (each) away to the Bobcat store for fuel filters, I got the machine up and running with replacement injectors. I also installed some inline filters, as others have done, to ensure any debris gets caught. The fuel looks super clean, so what I thought was a dirty tank or "humbugs" turned out to be bad injectors. I suspect a previous owner (PO) might have run a dirty air filter, and it probably didn’t hurt to clean out the tank anyway. I always like to do an "upgrade" to make myself feel better when things like this happen. So, I replaced the restrictive intake with a nice conical K&N filter so I could hear the turbo whistle a little more. It probably adds a few HP too, as the stock filter seemed to choke the turbo. Keep in mind, although it may not filter as well as having 40,000 paper layers stacked in there, the machine isn’t used for construction—just around my property. So, no worries. Thanks for the help, everyone! Hopefully, this thread will help someone one day. Now, I’m off to get the injectors programmed—that’s a whole other story/BS if you ask me, but whatever.