Hi, I recently took a chance on purchasing a jd510c that needed a main hydraulic pump. After checking around and getting quotes on buying a refurbished one I decided to try my hand at rebuilding the old one. I should add too that the backhoe sat around for at least two years and needed lots of tlc. I was successful in the rebuild and we managed to get it moving . The hydraulics were slow at first and we discovered multiple leaks which we fixed and now they are much faster. During the fixing stage we noted it was becoming difficult to start and we used a large industrial charger at 200 amps to get it going. To make a long story short , cleaned connections put in a new battery and all went fine for a few days until I got it stuck in the mud and had a hydraulic major leak near the front . After starting and stopping it many times the battery ran down but we eventually boosted it and got it out. We fixed the leak , had difficulty starting , boosted it , ran it all day and it worked great , but at end of day filled the front bucket and headed up the lane where it died . We were able to start it once but it died again . After boosting several times with no luck the batteries are not charging enough. I'm wondering if perhaps with the full bucket and going uphill, if the electronic destroke solenoid might be malfunctioning creating a high amp to start. That solenoid got soaked when the major leak occurred. We did take the starter solenoid off and it was in need of a good cleaning but is working for sure after cleaning it . Any thoughts ? I also had to replace a line that goes from the hydraulic cooler to the torque converter. I'm not sure if the lines to the cooler are correct . There are three 3/4 lines going to the cooler on the right side as I look from the front. One goes from the pump to the upper most connection. I installed the two torque converter lines to the other two connections, but not sure which line should go to the bottom and which to the middle?
Welcome to HEF, Fedora ! Or, if this isn't what you are looking for go here ---> https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/search/pgId/116274
third picture is the destroke solenoid.
Thanks Tinkerer but i've gone to their site and saw this but still unsure. I have the technical manuals and it suggests that one is out to the torque converter and the other is the return. WhenI follow them back from the cooler one is on top of the other then it connects again to some piping but i can't see the lines very well when i try to follow back.
About all you can do is unhook the end of one of the lines and pull it enough to see where it goes. Get an assortment of colored zip ties and put the same color on the hose end and also where it is connected. It is foolproof way to keep track of where lines came off and go back on.
I know you said convertor to cooler, but this shows transmission to cooler.
View attachment 224668 View attachment 224669 That's a great tip thanks
yes but i think it's the other side. two low pressure connections
Old trick on JD tractors is to rock the steering back and forth rapidly wile cranking this relives the pressure on the pump
You have a lot going on here. The destroke solenoid is 6V and will burn out quickly if it comes on long. I can't see how any of this has anything to do with the backhoe dying. Either the alternator is not charging (check the volts running), or you're running out of fuel because something is plugged up, those are the most likely possibilities when something has been sitting. if the battery had any power to crank the engine even once after it died, then it had plenty of power to run the injection pump solenoid, and I'd say you had fuel issues. Use Dave's trick when trying to start it to see if that helps it crank faster. If it doesn't help, then you have a weak battery, weak starter, or bad connection.
Thanks guys. Yes there is a lot here. Interesting how you picked up on the alternator and possible fuel issue. There are loads of electrical issues with this machine has spliced wires everywhere and We have been going through them. Before leaving last night I had my brother try to crank it over while i watched at the starter. Noticed two things , wiring to the alternator had a wire exposed and another that had 3 connectors within less than 1 ft. While cranking i noticed fuel bubbling out around the filter. Didn't have time to do more so just cut the wires to the alternator and i'm getting a new filter. I'm in Nova Scotia and the hurricane is suppose to be here tomorrow so not going to look at it again until the weekend as the backhoe is out in the country side. Will let you know how it goes . Thanks again.
https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/search/pgId/116184 if i did this correctly this diagram shows the two connections on the right side of cooler. This second diagram i believe might be what i'm looking for. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72461/referrer/search/pgId/116160
oh here are a few pictures of some of the stuff we did before this most recent problem.
So far our storm is not too bad . here is a photo from the manual of the right side of the hydraulic cooler. The two i'm questioning is D and F .
why are my images loading turned?
Did you post the image from an IPhone ? The image clearly says D - torque convertor in - cooler out. F- torque convertor out - cooler in. You need to figure out where one of the hoses goes to the convertor -- either one --- in or out.
an ipad
yes but i have not traced the lines back yet. I simply took the upper line to D and the lower line to F. I'll try the idea of disconnecting one of these and try to jiggle or tap the line to follow which is which, when i go out there again. Thank you for turning the picture.
i was a bit surprised that the lower connection was the " in" to the cooler.
Well I worked on it today and ran new wires to replace those that were spliced multiple times. I drained the fuel from the two tanks and got out about 30 litres or 8 gallons. Lots of sludge came out first then it went clear . I'll include a picture of the first bucket and the filter that was indeed a mess. I suspect there is a lot of water in the fuel too ,but will see after a few days of sitting. Unfortunately, i didn't have time to bleed the lines but hooked up the battery and tried to start. Turns over well but definitely needs to be bled.
yahooooooo! after a frustrating time of bleeding the lines we were successful in getting her running. We had to boost her but after a number of attempts she ran great. Now just a matter of tinkering. Thank you for your help.
Nice to read that it is running. Have at least one maybe two fuel filters to have on hand. That fuel looks like there may be more crap headed to the filter. There is (should be) a strainer in the fuel tank. If you haven't cleaned yet it is over due.
Thank you Tinkerer I guess i'll have to wait until I get the fuel level lower. I spoke too soon on it running . It worked for about a half hour then the same symptoms occurred. As we tried to bleed the lines yet again , I discovered a leak on the return line on the top of the injector pump. As we primed or pumped more fuel into the pump it seemed to leak more. Could that leak cause air back into the pump?
That leak shouldn't prevent the engine from running. If you have an ox/acetlyne torch braze the line, being careful not partially plug it. Your problem is most likely that sludge in the tank you mentioned earlier. That crap will plug the strainer in the tank in a heart beat.
Ok thanks . guess i'll have to drain the tanks again as I see a strainer on both the main tank and reserve.
Yes, clean the strainer in the tank, or hook up to a plastic temporary tank for testing purposes. The intake strainer/screen should be inside the lower metal tank, a hex fitting about 1 1/2" that the fuel line comes out of? Unscrew that, after draining the upper tank and part of the lower, and clean the plastic screen. It could be collapsing in use, you'll see it folded at the edges instead of completely round. If you have an original fuel suction hose going from the tank to the transfer pump, check that rubber for cracks where it's curved near the ends, or just replace it. You can reuse the fittings if you grind or chisel the ferrules off, then any fuel line with hose clamps will go on easy. If you don't have brazing set up, you could sand that line clean, wrap it with fine copper wire, and solder a patch over the whole thing. Or just cut it out and replace with rubber fuel hose.
you two guys are awesome thank you
well you guys were spot on. Look at my before and after pictures of the screen in the tank. Still haven't been able to start it as i'm struggling a bit with bleeding the lines.
Maybe its cleaner than it looks in the photo. I hope so. A strong carburetor cleaner would /should have the screen looking shiny. I have a small pail of cleaner that will take the carbon off of a piston. It was very expensive. Bleeding the lines shouldn't be real hard to do. A small amount of air pressure applied to the fuel tank filler will do wonders for those nasty ones.
It looks pretty clean as i used air compressor to blow through . I'll try the air pressure in the filler tank. somebody on youtube was suggesting spraying fuel in air intake. I've done that on an atv but question about doing it on diesel.
After a few choice words and a lot of back and forth it started ! i let it run for 10 minutes as it sputtered a bit at first , then I tested the hoe and front bucket. All seemed good . I used the hoe for about 30 minutes then turned it around and began with the front bucket . In the second lift it stalled. Come to think of it, almost every time it has stalled it was with the front bucket in use. It again would not start. I noted few things . The hydraulic low pressure line from or to the cooler was leaking. The fluid levels on the dipstick that is secondary to the Hydraulics has fluid moving up and is over filled. (see photo). It is to the left of the other dipstick. And that little leak at the top of injection pump is leaking more (my fix didn't work). Also of note was that it started after I had taken the starter solenoid off and apart to check the connections which were ok but noted scorching on the copper wheel.
I replaced one of the hydraulic low pressure lines from the cooler and reversed the top and bottom connections and the levels on the dipstick returned to normal. I noted yet another broken spliced electrical line to the top of the injection pump and in close proximity to the leak in the fuel return line which is now worse. But we were able to start it and again it purred for about 15 minutes then I put it in gear and tried to move ahead and it died and again was fuel starved. The only thing I can think of is that the fuel injection shut off solenoid is in that top part of the pump where that electrical wire broke and that the leak on the return line is causing it to close off. Thoughts?
Repair the those wires properly and fix the fuel leak. Then see if there is any improvement. It will never keep running unless there is a constant voltage to the shut-off solenoid. When it quits running check the solenoid wire for voltage to it.
Fix that leak, even if it's JBweld, or a hose clamp and a piece of rubber from an old inner tube. Run a hot wire from the battery to the injection pump. Then it dies only under load? clean that strainer again, replace the suction rubber line. Do you have a glass filter bowl? does it stay full after the engine dies?
Any leak in a diesel fuel system,whether supply or return,is bad juju....take the time repair the leaks..start fresh for any other diagnostics.....
ok i believe I have that leak fixed. I tested the voltage to the solenoid and get a reading of only .14 . on the filter side (which is glass) it does stay full and the transfer pump seems to be working fine.
If you only have 0.14 of a volt there is a serious issue with the wiring or the ignition switch.
not surprising given the number of cut lines and poor splicing of wires. There are two wires going into a connector just before it connects to the terminal of the solenoid. One is of course red the other is white then only one wire comes off that to the solenoid. The wires leading there had been spliced at least twice and the closest is only about 1 inch from the round connector. I'm suspicious of that connection. Delmer, I'll try running the line directly from the battery.
Tinkerer, I had an issue earlier with the ignition switch and ran a new #10 red wire from the S post directly to the starter solenoid. That helped a great deal in exciting that solenoid.
Start post is wrong. That way there is power to the solenoid only when the switch is turning the starter. When the starter isn't turning you have no power to the injection pump solenoid. You need to have it connected to the ignition switch (IGN) post.
Just to be clear Tinkerer . the wire I ran from the S terminal of the key switch was directly to the starter solenoid not the fuel injection solenoid. So indeed there is a problem between the ING post on the key switch to the injection solenoid where i'm only getting .14 v . I suspect it is in the wiring and not the switch itself . I'll follow the 2 lines and will most likely find one or more splices. In fact the connector itself could be wrong as the John Deere site shows a flat dual connector with two separate lines plugging into the injector solenoid . The set up now is the two wires spliced together before the round connector then one wire leading to the round connector and on to the solenoid.
Ok, I thought you had the pump solenoid connected to the "S" post. You definitely have a problem with that splice or somewhere else in the power supply ti the IP. Separate that splice and check for voltage in one of the wires that turns on and off with the ignition switch. My guess is that there is a hot wire and a ground tied together.
Absolutely right Tinkerer. I connected the fuel shut off solenoid to the battery with just alligator clips and heard the click so I knew it was working. Fixed the connection between the key and solenoid and it fired up. Ran it for 3hrs with no issue. I need now to go through each of the wires as I believe there are other problems with wiring and with missing switches. Thank you.
well I have been slowly fixing a number of electrical issues and have had it running and working great for days. But , the cold weather has started and i had hooked up the wiring to the start aid button (it had been disconnected) and now it won't start. I want to fix this as we get some pretty cold temps. Do i have to put fluid in the start aid container ? i'll check electrical lines too. How does the start aid work?
the start aid is an ether container that looks like a small propane cylinder, right? Yours is probably empty, it should come on only when you hit the button and the starter is energized. The tiny plastic line going to the intake manifold breaks off also, check the outside for ether smell after using it with a full ether canister.
If you park the machine near a 120 volt power source a block (coolant) heater with a timer on it is a better choice than ether. Here is what your either set up should look like.
thanks guys . it all makes sense now. There is a block heater on it but i need to at least replace the cord as it doesn't look safe . hopefully the element is ok.
That's why they sell electrical tape in ten packs. Plug it into a gfci and you're safer than operating that thing.
Inspect whatever type of block heater closely after you plug it in before leaving unattended...I had an old canister heater on mine that used to smoke every time I plugged it in,needless to say I've upgraded to a regular in block element style..Like Delmer said a gfci is kinda a must...last winter 2 barns/workshops near me went up in smoke from what they concluded were faulty heaters....Nothing to fear, just make sure they're in good shape...still a better option than ether,you don't need to keep them plugged in either,usually an hour or so,little longer in single digits....
well i'm slowly learning lots about the old girl. I tested the block heater(it was fine) and replaced the old cord to it. My starting problems worsened and decided to pull off the starter . You can see in the pictures the pinion gear housing was destroyed and the springs and rollers were gone. A little worried that they may be down in the oil pan . Have the parts on order. Otherwise the starter looks great. Had to clean up the points in the solenoid as they were scorched again due to this pinion failure. Will post a further update once i have the starter rebuilt and back in.
Here is what the springs and rollers should look like.
May be some chunks in the bottom of bell housing, but I've never seen any starter that had direct access to oil pan..may even be an inspection plug/hole in bottom of bell housing where you can fish those pieces out...
Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the 510c? I've had it running off and on but something is not right with the wiring.
What's not right? the engine wiring is one wire to the injection pump, right? plus gauges and alternator.
Ok here is what is happening . It always had a mind of its own if it would start easily or be very difficult to start. Did the boosting, checking cables and connections , changed batteries, found the broken pinion, rebuilt the starter along with new solenoid, replaced the key switch. After sitting the winter, it started with a boost but died where it sat after running for 1/2 hour. When i tried to start it again it would not start even with a boost. Took the rebuilt starter off again and the pinion teeth were a little chewed up just at the ends and the solenoid scorched. fixed these. Also , the transfer pump had a leak that was actually part of its housing and i put a temp fix on that until i could replace it. Put the starter back on and it started with a boost. But there was a sound that i figured the starter pinion might be stuck on. That sound went away for a minute then back then gone again. I moved the tractor from is location and buckets etc worked , only moved it maybe 75 ft when It bogged down in some muddy spot and stalled. Again , would not start but this time the cables became very hot and the negative post on one battery melted before i could disconnect. The key was off but it continued to draw. Again, went through the wiring changed some cables that had heated but couldn't find anything much. Put the old batteries back on that still hold a charge. I put on a new transfer pump and bled the lines. Actually it was at this point that i changed the key switch too thinking that maybe the running on was a fault in the switch. I took the solenoid off and it was scorched again, cleaned it and put it on. Took the relay off and cleaned connections. It continues to run on after trying to start and cables again heating. Looking now at getting another starter but getting concerned that the flywheel is too hard to turn. Buckets are resting on ground but not fully down as front bucket is on a hill. Oh i suspect it died after moving the 75 ft because of the leaky transfer pump and low fuel. Any thoughts?
I should add as well that the small positive lines are not overheating only the large cables. There are 4 wires plus the main cable connecting to the positive post of the starter. One wire from the key to the solenoid pin.
I think a careful inspection of all the ring gear teeth should be done.Your pinon gear teeth should not be showing any abuse on them. It seems odd to me that the cables get that hot. Even though the starter may be energized while the motor is running. One of the 4 wires on the pos. cable may be energizing the starter -- that should not be. Intermediate starting easy and then not starting easy may be due to the hydraulic pump. I am not a Deere type person, but that pump may have a defective unloader in it. If it has one!
Yes, the unloader/destroke could cause intermittent harder starting. Wiggle the steering wheel as in post #9 to determine if the hydraulic pump is not destroking and causing the hard cranking. You could have multiple problems going on, could be all electrical related, or could be a fuel issue along with mechanical starter issues. Hard starting is tough to figure out with all you have going on, go back through the suggestions and tell us what's been done and what's not been done. The stalling after running is easier, either you're running out of fuel because of the blockages that you know you had, and are probably still dealing with. Or you're losing voltage to the injection pump, or the injection pump solenoid is failing. Most likely you have garbage in the tank plugging filters again, combined with possible cracked hoses. Fix that first, then worry about the electrical if it still stalls with a clean fuel system. One way to diagnose the stalling is to add a LED light on the dash fed back from the injection pump terminal, so the light confirms power to the injection pump, and/or a fuel pressure gauge teed into the supply to the injection pump and run to the dash so you can see how the fuel pressure holds up under load, and have warning before a stall. Neither of these is needed if you clean the fuel system and it stops stalling.
Thanks guys I'll let you know how it goes. I did order a new starter . Do you think the hot ground cable could simply be caused by the starter? It continues to turn even when the key is out and eventually it stops. I have the 2 book technical manuals but there isn't any wiring diagrams in it.
Better get a new starter (ignition) switch before you destroy that new starter. There is a chance that it isn't the switch causing the run-on with the starter. It can be a fault in the wires or wire routing. I think installing a main disconnect switch on the battery cable will give you the capability to instantly cut the power to the starter in case it does run-on after releasing the key in the ignition switch. I once made the mistake of buying a cheap ass switch on ebay and it stuck in the start position and destroyed my starting motor. Not from heat but the centrifugal force from the motor spinning it.
There's nothing complicated about any of the wiring. If you don't have voltage to the small wire on the starter, and the starter stays engaged, then you have a mechanical problem with the starter. If you do have voltage to the small wire on the starter after the key is released from "start", then you have an electrical problem. If the starter will crank the engine for 20 seconds and not warm up any of the connections, then I'd guess your cables are fine. Usually it's the ends that get corroded. Unless the cable breaks midway, then it will be super flexible in that spot.
For the safety of your new starter, remove the all the small wires from the solenoid. After doing that run a new wire from the start position on the starter switch the terminal on the solenoid that engages the starter. Then after you start the engine put a volt meter on each of those dis-connected wires and look for one of them to have a voltage reading. I am guessing one of them will have current in it, and that would be the reason for the starter not shutting off.
Wonderful suggestions guys. The starter is going to take a few weeks to arrive and I'll follow up afterward. I already ran a new #10 wire from the key ST to the small post on the solenoid , so I know it's good. I also ran a new wire from the injection pump.
Well my little black cloud continues to keep watch over me. The starter arrived and it was just tooo hot to go out and work on it 90 F , Went out yesterday as it was suppose to be a little cooler but damn the temperature dropped to 44 F with winds and rain that made it miserable. I took the old starter off like an expert now that i've done it 5 or 6 times and upon inspection it is definitely fried. Opened the new box and....see pic , now back to ebay to try and get the right one. Oh well, guess it will warm up again.
Happy Father's day! Starter on , fired her up ... Worked wonderfully. Then when I tried to shut off it continued to run. Guess it didn't want to quit yet, lol. I pulled the fuse to the fuel and it stopped. I can start it no problem. I tried just pulling that fuse without turning the key off and it continues to run until I turn the key off.
I'm not going back through four pages to see if anything was mentioned about the alternator. I'd suspect the alternator is hooked up wrong, or there's not the right diode or resistor in the alternator excite circuit, that should solve the turning off issue.
I don't blame you for not going back 4 pages. I wouldn't either. i really appreciate your help and Tinkerer and others as this sure has been a learning experience for me. When I bought this machine, I noted that the previous owner had installed a new alternator. I'm pretty certain the issue is in the wiring. In any event yahoo i think I've turned a corner on its issues. Thank you.