Figured I'd start a thread on this new tandem dump I just bought, have some small repairs and maintenance to do, then upfit the truck with hitch, tool box(es), barn door conversion, new tires, etc. Truck is a 1997 Ford LT9000, 485K mi -210" WB, 19'9" bridge formula, 56,600 GVWR -16K front axle, dual steering boxes, 385 floats -40K rear axles, RT40-145, 4.88 ratio -15' Ox Bodies steel dump bed, 42" sides, air tailgate and electric tarp -L10 Cummins 300hp -Fuller RTX-11609B 9-speed OD transmission Few pics: More to come....
Few more pics:
I think I'm going to be ok on the height, skid steer has plenty of reach even with the sideboards, will try out the mini ex when I get a chance: Hopefully this week I can get the few small items fixed and get the truck inspected and on the road.
40-145 Rockwell rear drives are good units, and 4.88 because if the 11609B gear box. Should be low enough for off road without issues, I'm sure it was in the past.
curious about the barn door conversion.
Louisville cab Ford trucks were solid trucks. I loved driving them.
As am I, I've never seen it done on a truck with a swept tailgate, but I've had more than one person tell me there is a kit available just for that. I'm having trouble envisioning how it would lay flat against the side of the truck when open.
why do you want it?
Because I frequently haul large bulky stuff that wont fit out the tailgate, like when we tear out old farm fence or do farm cleanups, stumps, brush etc. Also for hauling logs, culverts, or putting attachments in the bed. On my current single axle trucks the tailgate can be laid down flat, suspended by the chains by one man, this truck obviously you couldn't. I might just have to take the tailgate off with a machine as needed, if the barn door conversion doesn't work out.
Yes I would strongly suggest not tying yourself to a barn door. It is truly a PITA to get out and swing the door on an end dump and chain it back, and sometimes there is no room to swing it. I take our slanted gate off easily because you get it in the latches, close the latches, then swing it up at the top to pin it. I see no reason you could not dangle that gate on chains either. I believe I'd want a high lift gate over anything, but that does not do the logs or culverts. It does dump out big wads of brush and stumps nicely and gets out of the way for poking things in there from the back.
Yes---on the high lift.----I remember years ago allot of three fingered dump/log truck drivers.
I've never used a barn door but high lifts are downright handy. Can even use it to lift stuff like plate compactors or buckets in the back with a chain fall or comealong if you have a place to hook on the top of the tailgate.
A barn door is fantastic for an owner operator. When “Guys” are being relied on to operate one correctly, you can expect the gate to be FUBARed within a few days. I’ve seen them installed on a slanted gate but it’s ALOT of work. The ones I’ve seen, they added to the rear posts and relocated the hinge point to make the gate sit straight up and down. Probably still easier than adding a high lift, especially if you can do the fab work youself.
I'm not familiar with these barn door kits. Can it no longer operate as a normal tailgate once the kit is installed?
No, it should run both ways, if it is done right. Normally you use the regular hinges, only barn door when you have stuff that won't fit out, swinging the gate sideways is a pain.
I'm putting the barn door conversion on the back burner for now. First priority is get it serviced, make necessary repairs and get it on the road. Working through the small repairs: -small air leak at the regulator for the air tailgate and air tailgate button leaks when engaged -power divider seems to be locked in despite being in the unlock position (wasn't when I bought the truck), will have to diagnose -electric tarp motor doesn't work -transmission occasionally pops out of 3rd/7th gear if I don't make a good clean shift, not sure if it's a shift fork problem, shift tower problem, or if the shift collar/gears are worn. As long as I pay attention to shifting it properly it's fine, but would like to look into it before it becomes a bigger problem -last thing, after reading through my shop manual and crawling around under the truck, it does indeed have locking diffs, which is a huge bonus. However, they are not working. Switch and light in the cab works, not sure if the air solenoid under the cab is operating or not. Again, will just have to take some time to diagnose. I think I can figure out the lockers/power diver, etc but could use some insight on the tranny popping out of gear and where to start on that.
OK--one of my forte's--Eaton gear boxes. Below is one I rebuilt a 13 speed front section. Note the shift pattern for 3rd & 4th are reversed to correct pattern in the shift bar housing. 3rd is the input drive gear, 4th is on the main shaft. Two things that get really worn in a 9 Speed or 10 Speed- The next lowest gear from top hole which is in a 9 spd 3rd & 7th because it's the same gear used, the back section does the low high range. In a on road situation with a truck like your with that horse power under the hood it's a constant rowing action between the top three gears, and 7th gets the brunt. Fore & aft play { no matter how slight} in the main shaft and a worn sliding clutch, once worn to a point will and can have a issue staying in gear. Also the shift fork, sliding rail & detent also take a beating from constant shifting from 8th to 7th--3rd to 4th. Food for thought, but it's where the issue is. *
Shift towers--those do wear, along with the lever. But keep in mind there are three different heights of shift towers, low, med & high. The low style was common on early trucks with short levers, as time passed med & High style towers became the norm, Almost every part on a Eaton will have a stamped or cast in part number. Your transmission being built in 1997 should be with out a doubt a high torque style gear box with cast steel bearing covers for the counter shafts in the rear section. High torques use tapered counter shaft bearings which are shimmed for pre-load during assembly. Roller bearing style use a stamped steel cover and have no pre-load. But Eaton did build some low torque boxes in later years too.
I knew you'd be all over that. Our truck has some of that potential for popping out, but it is going to make it to the end of my career. Exciting times there @MG84 !
Excellent information, thank you for the replies. In my reading of old threads on other forums, it seems like half the time the problem ended up being in the shift forks, poppet balls, detent springs, the other half of the time it was gears, sliding collar, etc. If I can fix it without removing the transmission I might look into it, if the problem is deeper it's either going to wait till next winter or it gets too bad to drive. I haven't looked to see if there is enough room to get the top cover off with it in the truck, hopefully so. Also, what is a good place to order both OEM and/or good aftermarket parts for these transmission?
Yes sir, If I can get this truck reliable and setup the way I want and still have less than $30K in it I'll be thrilled.
Only a very few trucks have room, plus it's not advised. Problem is with the threads that seemed to be taken care of by detent parts--in reality those were just wishful thinking, they didn't want to spend the money or time. By the way the rear engine mounts are on the transmission bell. Fords, Volvos, GMC, Mack all liked that idea--it was a bad one.
Parts? I only used genuine Eaton--I never used IPD or others. When I rebuilt a gear box for someone they expected it to last--And my moto was {One Ping, One Ping Only} I only did them one time. Eaton parts are not that expensive, A rebuild bearing & gasket kit is roughly $800. Average parts cost on a major rebuild of a 13 would hit $2,500. Any major parts house dealer for parts.
It's my area--notice I don't follow or post on yellow iron threads---I really don't care about that stuff and liked working on it even less. I'm the opposite of Vetech he hates trucks I hate excavators, HT crawlers, loaders, rollers--run them till they break then scrap them.
Understood. For me, I'm willing to spend the money to do it right, the time is the issue. I'm basically a one man show, so any time spent in the shop is not on the job site, and this time of year my phone is blowing up with customer calling. Problem is, when I take something to a dealer/repair shop it seems to take even longer than if I'd have just done it myself. Like the rear main seal on my IH4700, I could have done it in one long day, took them 5 weeks. I'm going to drive it as-is for a little while and see how it does, If I have to I'll jump in and tackle it. Would a good reman be an option or am I better off taking the time to rebuild what I have?
Reman--unless you have the book, the tools, and extra time it won't be worth it. First time out of the gate for someone who has never been in one the time triples. The other is knowing what to look for.
On the reman transmissions, where does one look for a quality, reputable reman? I briefly looked on the Eaton site, looks like they offer a good number of factory reman transmissions, but not mine (to old?). I see various ones in my model for sale on Ebay, Vander Haags, etc ranging from $3000-6000, but who knows the quality. Also, since I might be swapping transmissions, is there a better model to go with? I originally wanted an 8LL, but this truck is geared so deep already that may not be needed. 13spd? 15spd? or just stick with the 9spd?
You won't gain much moving to a ten speed overdrive and lowest gear ratios are real close, between a 9 spd B and a 10 spd C. The only 13spd I would use is a RTLO14613B-it's a high torque with a low of 14.71 and overdrive of .85. The 9 & 10 is roughly a low of 12.60 and a overdrive of .73. But you will get hit a core charge changing styles of gear boxes. * For a reman-nationally-Weller/Jasper.
Odd thing about this-I know where a RTX 11609 is setting, needs to be checked out, it came out of a 9000.
If you weren't on the other side of the country I might be twisting your arm to build one for me lol. Really though, If I'm going the reman route I might as well keep driving this one as long as I can. I don't think it's going to fail catastrophically so I won't be out of anything core wise.
That's correct--and in the mean time you can look around--might run upon something.
I've done a few of these transmissions but to be honest most the time it is best to have it done by a shop that do them every day. In my area there are a couple of shops and you just can't beet a guy that dose it every day. If they are not backed up they can turn it around in a couple days. Keep in mind they have to eat too!
If your going to spend money on a different transmission you really should go 13/18 speed. Is it really hilly over there and you expect to be loaded heavy a lot you can go 18 but 13 will be better. Local companies around here have good enough luck with remans, you could pay the core charge and get the trans sitting in your shop and then swap it out. Kiss just keep the trans you have and replace with same when needed
Did you transpose those numbers? Most of the trucks at work have 18s and two still have 13s. We spend a lot of time on steep ground and when I get in a truck with a 13, it's not very long before I'm wishing for an 18.
One thing to remember--is check the lower ratios {low range} on a 13 speed. The RTLO14613B is 14.71--What Eaton did was build it with the lower side ratios of a 18 speed just don't have the splits on the low side, but the ratios are just wide enough to work out for off road. The gear box I listed works well with lower horse power engines and is just right behind a Cummins 400 with 3.70 ratio. At .85 overdrive it still has a decent top highway speed with a low of 14.71. just like a 18 speed.
Just hauled the first load, 10 tons of rock for a small project here at the farm. Wanted to haul a few light loads to get a feel for the truck before loading it up. 10 tons was completely a non-issue, slowed down a little on the hills but otherwise you couldn't even tell it was back there. Will load it to 12-14 next trip. Empty weight was less than I expected, 21,700 with half tank of fuel. I think my limiting factor is going to be the 16K front axle. I was at 14K on the front with only 10 tons, might have to get him to load it more towards the back. Overall, so far so good. As long as I clutch going into 3rd/7th it doesn't pop out, just a little annoying but I can work with it for now. Still trying to get used to the gearing in this truck, with 4.88 rears you go through the lower 4 gears really fast, then 5-8 are bigger jumps. I think it will be fine once I figure it out. If I were driving it all day, every day, the 13spd may be benefical, but I'm not. It's just to support the construction business, not make a living hauling for others, truck will probably only see 5-10K miles a year.
Nice! 22K empty and following the 34K rule, you can get 14 tons on there with 16/34 and no need for an overweight permit. That's a nice productive load. Congratulations again.
There's really no reason to put in a 13 or 18 speed with just a l10 in a three axle truck, it would be a waste of time and money. With deep rears like that, if you need to shift, you really need a full gear, splits don't do you any good, because you don't have enough power or speed to make it worth a 1/2 gear. I think all the splits help a lot more in flatter country getting going, in short steep hills like I have, you're skipping three to five gears anyways. Running around with 40-50,000 gross, a nine speed is just fine. Glad everything worked on the first run.
Yes I think he purchased right.The only caveat to all that is when he gears up like me with a 20 ton tilt and starts pulling 68K. Then his engine could use a few more gears on the hills. I'm low power at 325/1075 but I think it has significant more gut.
Around here seems that any triaxle today (73280 gross) has a 18 or 13. I can't speak as to what ratio but I'd guess 410s. But most also have 565 horse cummins or similar. Like crane op said with our 435 horse c12 /13 speed I can get the first split but if you need more that that you best start taking whole gears but our hills are about like mine shafts
Only reason anyone would think that is they have never driven a 13spd B model.
You are correct only 2 I ever jockied one had a 9 speed and the other a 15. What am I doing wrong
I learned to drive on a Mack DM with a 5+1 and 300hp. With big power like a 425 all those extra gears just wear your arm out . . .
We have a couple tandems that were tractors. One 444 Cummins, and an N14. Both have 18 speeds. Only time I ever split them is on the highway maybe to go a bit faster. Stick with the 9 speed. Most of our tandems have 8LLs, or that 13 speed that international had with the deep reduction. That is a nice looking truck for what you want. I can't tell by the picture, but did the engine still sit on a slant in that year of a ford
I didn't mean you Tyler, The 13B is/was not a common model. Yes that gives more time to eat Little Debbie Snacks.
Ah I thought I was going to learn a new thing. I'm sure I don't shift them properly I learned on the fly just avoid the grind sounds
See here's the funny thing about a 13--no one says you have to split the top side, most otr's only split the last two. But the nice thing is the gears are there if you want them. Same with a 18.
Another funny thing--less gears are ground when relaxed, in a good mood, chewing gum just watching scenery go by. The harder one tries---------Then you have the guy that can't chew gum and drive---there are those, my old company was full of them.
Just my opinion, I've never been a fan of the 13sp. Most hauling I've done is easily done with a 10sp with a good HP engine, and they're way easier to run. But if I have to do heavy haul, or on highway as well as off highway, hell, keep the crappy 13sp and instead give me 18. Otherwise, I prefer a 10.
Actually I wish the 18 had never been invented---it was/is unnecessary with the lower range 13B. The trouble is the final drive gearing in allot of cases. Now a 9 spd with a 4 speed aux, that works real well. * Plus a 10 spd like a 16210C--It has the same ratio in low and the same ratio in top hole as a RTLO18913A 13 spd--But because 1st is so low it's actually driven as a 9 spd. Out here a 10 spd is a turd with the long grades and 450 rpm gear splits, same with the 9.
Thanks for everyone's replies. I think this engine/transmission combo will be suited well enough for what I want. Power and gearing seem to be adequate and it's a lot lighter than I thought. I'm only tagged to 54K gross, so as far as towing I'll be limited to 32K. Been eyeing 8-ton class excavators pretty hard, this would tow one of those nicely I think. Adding a pintle hitch will be the first big project, and may not be as easy as my other trucks. If I bring a butt plate straight down I think the rear air brake chamber will hit it at full tandem articulation. I'll get more pics and measurements when I get into that project so yall can help advise.
V-plate for hitch.
No Little Debbie's here - or 64 oz sodas for that matter. But there was always plenty of time waiting for those old turds to finish a gear, rolling coal like a steam locomotive . . .
Some days I'm a professional like a machine doing it some days I look like a Amish chick churning butter on top of a rock crusher......
I disagree in one aspect, I think it's a bit of a stretch to label a 10sp a turd. Really? A lot of variables are involved in choosing any drive train, and thankfully there have been many choices so one could find what fits their needs the best. I admit, being in E Tennessee, we don't have to deal with grades like you find out west, but we do have grades, umm, this area is the Appalachian Mountain area. We have two trucks, a newer Pete with a 13, and an old Freightshaker with a 10. I've driven both with 40K loads of iron. That old Freightliner pulls like a mule with the big Mercedes engine, don't know what the diff ratio is, but it's a good match whatever it is, can easily do 80 on the big road, the 450 rpm splits are no problem. And yeah, 1st gear is low, but it's handy dragging those structural iron loads on a flatbed on jobsites. The Pete with the 13, handles those 40K loads just as well, just have to split the high range gears which I don't have to do in the F liner with the 10. Again, all things have their place, and not one size fits all. With trucks, it depends on your need, and it's certain you can find something out there with the choices available to fit your need. But what I find absurd is labeling anything that works well and fits certain needs a turd. That's just my opinion.
Our truck is a 10 with the blue switch for the low 5 offroad gears, or starting out on Seattle hills. It does the needful but is no speed demon loaded.
I've driven a few 18 speeds with a straight truck overloaded probably around 60,000, splitting low side is completely pointless unless you're wanting to shift up a hill. It's just a more expensive heavier 13 speed. I really like 13 speeds because of splitting high side it's so easy to grab the gears you don't grind nothing and just slow down with Jake's is fast. I can't believe a professional over the road driver wouldn't split all the high gears. Mg84, every big truck I've driven you barely RPM the low side and you can shift it without grinding easy. I can't remember to exact but on high side it's around 4 or 500 RPM I think
18sp in a straight truck? Didn't see that coming.
3 ptos
The place I worked at years ago had three matching Kenworth dump trucks with big Cat's and 18 speeds. The only time splitting gears was needed was for goofing off and playing big trucker . . .
Lots of dump trucks here with 18 speeds. They get payed by the ton. Got to be first place in the rat race!
A lot of older trucks here will go with a single brake pot on the back axle, because their maxis will rub on the asphalt spreader. Unless you are planning on running heavy, and parking on steep hills, a single axle park break should hold no problem
What I find absurd is labeling a 13 spd as crappy. And that's just my opinion, but I can say I'm a real driver and have rebuilt scads of eatons. Flipping the red splitter with thumb can be strenuous and mind boggling for some. That's a 15 spd.
Truck shop what do you call a trans that has 7 road gears. You have 1 top left, 2 straight down, 3rd is over and back. There is a gear straight forward of 3rd but high side 1st is almost the same ratio. High side is the same but you use the last gear forward of the 3rd hole. I drove two trucks like this everyone called them 8 speeds and funny enough they used that useless low side gear
Those little International tandems this company had, with the DT466s. They had a 13 speed with a deep reduction. What were they called?
Our truck had the heavy duty air compensated high pintle for the big trailers. I had a local shop add that 2 1/2" receiver below. The back plate was already cut at an angle to miss the maxis, and they added a 3" box tube across that to get the perfect height. When they added that tube they angle cut it and frenched the ends so it looks sharp, then they cut and fitted big knife plates up to the 1/2" plate so it is strong. I have that dialed in for our 16K trailer so I can hook it to either this or the 1 ton and it tows flat. That's a must for torsion axles.
I saw some pics of that hitch in another thread of yours, looks about like what I'm going to have to do. I generally like to notch the plate and inset it in the frame a little, but the rear hinge assy. is already notched in. Will probably just have to butt weld it to the back of the frame, and across the angle for the hinges. Between that and some large gussets underneath it should be fine. Got the power divider and lockers working today, turned out to just be a bad connection at the circut breaker. Cleaned that up and they worked fine. Jacked up the back of the truck, with the engine and parking brake off I could turn the wheels/driveshafts to see what locked what. The switches do not work as I thought, the larger lever type switch to the far left of the dash labeled "Diff Lock-Out" is actually the power divider (red light that says "Diff Lock" comes on the dash), the small toggle switch below and right of the steering column labeled "Wheel Lock" is the lockers, but no light. Does this sound right?
Our's are on a larger version of the tube receiver you have on the bottom. The truck can't back into the asphalt spreader or shoulder spreader with the hitch on
I have to pull the lower hitch to hook that upper to the 20 ton.
touché
Just going back to tailgates for a moment. These two-way tailgates are very common here, there would be many more trucks with them than without. They have air latches and operate like a normal tailgate… drop in a pin on the LHS, release the latch on the RHS and they swing around and latch on the side of the body. Legally, they make the truck oversized when opened and on the road but we work in regional areas and haven’t been bothered by the constabulary yet..they are removable though. View attachment IMG_4317.jpeg View attachment IMG_4316.jpeg
The 20 ton is the one I mean we have on the receiver. It's legal, but every time I pull that little half inch pin to remove the hitch, I'm amazed it holds.
I thought about fabbing my own setup for our truck. 1) Put in a plug section to get it upright. This would help a lot for scooping out with the mini, the thumb hits the raked tailgate before the edge of the bucket and it leaves a couple of buckets behind. The big machine leaves a couple of 5 gallon buckets by comparison! 2) recess the hinges once again to help the mini. 3)Figure out all that monkeymotion above. Thankfully my retirement got in the way of that and any other "good ideas".
Got a couple maintenance questions for yall. Is there only one grease fitting for the clutch cross shaft? I found one on the passenger side, but not on the driver side where the arm is? What kind of dryer is this? It's not the Bendix AD9 that the truck originally would have come with, I want to service it and need to find parts:
No idea about your truck, but there should be 2, as well as one for the throw out bearing
T.O.B. is a hose coming out of the arm hole on our truck. Go lightly with all those, get sloppy and it can get where you don't want it.
That is a Obsolete Haldex/Midland air dryer. DA33100--expensive add a X for reman. Either that area of bell is full of dirt/grease covering it or it broke off or got loose spun it's self out. * T/O bearing is to be greased just so a small blob appears between it and clutch brake.
I’ll search around for the other fitting, not much crud or dirt under the truck so either I’m blind or it fell out. Already greased the throwout bearing. Should I swap out the dryer for something more common? Bendix AD9? ADSP?
Any reason not to replace it with a ad9
install what ever they want.
Run it till it doesn't work anymore
Problem is--just installing a fresh spin-on dryer filter doesn't really do the job, the housing is more than likely coated with oily water residue inside. If dryer filters are changed regularly not too much issue, but on a older truck like this no reason to push anymore moisture through the system--air valves are 28 years old.
If water isn't getting in the tanks after a few days
Found a service kit DQ6026, for the Haldex DA33100 dryer. Might just go that route instead of fabbing new brackets etc from swaping something different. I’ll pull it off the truck and do a complete cleaning and service unless yall think thats a bad idea?
The AD9 bracket is about 35 bucks. Look it over for haldex name and part# for sure.
The big issue is disrupting anything on a air system this old, the tanks are more than likely rusty, dryer cartridges remove at best when new 80% of the moisture. The wet tank really catches the thick fluid-oil plus water. People have a tendency to rely on air dryers to keep a system dry and stop draining tanks.
And another thing that happens, for real, though not often, the Freightliner we have, one day I was under it adjusting the clutch free play, and me being a wrench bender for near 40 yrs, I always look around for other issues. I happened to notice that on one of the tanks Freightliner factory had fitted the tank drain valve to the port, yes, in the middle of the rear of the tank. The low drain port was on the front of the tank and had a plug in it. Seriously??? Removed the plug and drained a $hitload of water. And of course, fitted a new drain valve and stuck the plug in the rear tank port.
At least Freightliner put one in it-- 2021 Kenworths, 5 T990's in our order. Zero drain valves in one, none. All five never had a fuse installed for dryer heating element.
Ha, like drivers now days, "don't need to drain tanks, it's got a dryer". LoL
I'm referring to the very poor quality control and predelivery of a $250.000 vehicle.
A local builders favorite thing is to pull a drain valve and put a supply line for a transfer case switch, then said transfer case has problems in summer and winter due to the water
So I'm trying to make a decision on drive tires, retread vs cheap new vs decent new. I've narrowed it down to these three, which are about all I can get locally right now (Goodyear, Firestone, Michelin are out of my budget): Oliver retread waste hauler lug, middle of 3rd page, $2400 installed: https://www.michelinb2b.com/wps/b2bcontent/PDF/Oliver_Retreads_for_Waste_Industry.pdf Galaxy DR271, $3500 installed: Galaxy DR271-G 11R22.5 Load H 16 Ply Drive Commercial All Season Tire | 684369 | 4 Tires | 25/32" Tread Depth | Radial Ply Belted | TL Run Flat IMPORTANT: Oversized item. MUST be shipped with LTL-Freight Service. This item can ONLY be delivered to accessible COMMERCIAL or INDUSTRIAL addresses. Farms, remote addresses and some Commercial addresses are considered difficult to access for LTL-Freight and may not be covered Free Shipping. A... www.ebay.com Hercules Strong Gaurd HMX, $4300 installed: https://www.herculestirescommercial.com/tire-details/Hercules/Strong-Guard-H-MX?
Hercules HMX--It will clean better with that style of center rib and open shoulder lugs, plus traction.
I really like those hercs, I had them on the water truck I drove
I have a truck real similar to yours, last year I put on retread Waste Handlers of some sort that my local tire outfit had on the shelf. For a low mileage local truck retreads will probably be fine. Mine were like $300-ish a piece, vs 600+ for new tires. The tires on my truck performed well. Until I drove over a 1/2" rebar retaining stake that got missed . . .
Not sure what retreads are like in The US, but we run retreads on all our tandems, and get as much running out of them as a new tire. Mind you they are our casings that have been redone. Not sure where they send them. I don't know if I would run them on a highway truck. They might be fine, but hours and hours of driving on pave at high speeds........
If you can buy Ring Tread caps.
I am knocking on wood about my air dryer. I am sure it is old and outmoded, but every time I sump the tanks I get nothing. It has valves all over and they never spit a thing ( knocks on wood again). As far as drives, I do them by comittee. I have legal used rubber back there and when something happens, like the tire I need to change out that lost a chunk, my tire shop can find me a decent match. I've never lost one. I think 1 flat total. The steers are different. I was so happy to get new ones earlier this year.
We are also in the process of putting new drives on our tandem. Sailun 917, $4300 cdn all in. Lots of loggers have been using these with pretty good results and we had a set on our single axle dump a few years back. First time with daytons so put the first 2 on at home for practice…lol 11r/22.5 16 ply. We will be 90 % off-road…
Heat gets the retreads. Be a big difference between your summer temps, and a lot of the southern and western U.S. I saw one of my cranes has a nice gouge in the sidewall the other day, they are like new hankook drives, it never cuts the old tire that needs replaced anyways. I'm guessing someone run up a curb or a footer rebar grabbed it. Just part of the business. When I buy drive tires, I usually want the most aggressive I can find, but I don't do near the miles that the OTR guys, or even the dump truck guys do. I'd like to think the michelin/goodyear stuff would be worth the money, but the overseas stuff is so much cheaper. Its hard to think that they would last long enough to pay.
True-but there is are huge factors in the life and death of caps, first is it a virgin casing that was capped? Second is it a ring tread cap? Third is it a casing that accepts caps well [side wall flex has allot to do with it}. Fourth is the tire pressure kept at a constant level like 95 psi instead of a 100. I don't like caps but allot of failures come from those four items. For your business and dump/vocational more than likely not just because of conditions. But in the OTR end yes. This tire below Yokohama 527 will run with rotating and psi kept up a little over 200,000 miles on a 4 axle, we one set make it 241,000. Never had anything come close to that average is about 160 to 165 on the rest. Plus the traction is really good. But it's not a cheap tire either. *
Truck shop what psi you run, and what weight is on the axle?
43,000 on the drives & drop axle as a group, 100 psi on trailers, drives, 105 on drop axle and 110 on steers with a GVW of 99,000.
Got the tires ordered, decided to go with the Hercules HMX, they should be here towards the end of the week. Also hauled first full load of 14 tons yesterday, truck did great. Climbs the hills as fast or a little faster than my F700 with 8-tons, so I think the power will be adequate. I think I will have to buy the overload permit to be safe, if the loader doesn't get it exact I'm either over on my 16K steer or 34K on the tandems, since I'm right at 50K gross. I decided to swap out to a standard Bendix AD9 air dryer. How much oily residue in the air lines/tank is too much? When should you look at an oil coalescing filter and/or compressor replacement? I get a little oily residue out of the dryer exhaust, and a little where the tailgate switch discharges on the floor. If I drain the wet tank it's only a tiny bit of water vapor and maybe a little drop of oil.
If it's pushing oil---it's a tired compressor. Should be a Holset 35580--something and that's a hard remembered guess. Bad thing is the collection in air lines that have a dip in them. Figure anywhere from $450 to $650 prices are all over the board on items like that.
Maybe this picture might give you some ideas for a hitch? Your truck sounds a lot like one I drove years ago. It was a KW T-450 spec'd pretty much like yours. Rode like a buckboard but it was still fun to drive and man, was it handy on a job site. Load it up until the dirt was rolling off and the steering was still only two fingers. The L10 was turned up a bit and you had to drive with one eye on the pyrometer on the hills.
If I were you id take the line that comes off the compressor and look in it, if you see buildup (burnt oil)replace the compressor sooner, no buildup you can get some life out of it. Compressors are cheap in the grand scheme and I view them as wear items like tires.
Yes and no---compressors can run damn near the life of the engine, it's all determined by how many times it's cycled--a truck that is a constant soap bubble--compressor doesn't have a chance.
Lol. The rigs I run are powered by air and use a lot of air.
Here is the compressor: Hard to make out but I think the top line says: SS296 and the middle line is 3047440 S/N looks like 1D2496M45 How big of a job to change this?
The SS296 has been around for over 45 years--two versions that's a later one. 3047440 is a good number. Drain the cooling system remove IP, discharge & coolant lines, unbolt from accessory drive. Get your self a Cummins injector pump/compressor wrench {curved plus a S wrench} usually need both 7/16- 1/2-9/16-5/8. 4 hours.
It's pretty easy I made my own wrench but the specialty tool makes it a lot faster
I have a similar truck. It was a former plow truck but only the dump box is hooked up. Same 16K front axle and 40K rears and dual steering boxes but has a double frame. Thankfully they don't use much salt in Alberta so no rust jacking. It's a 94 L9000 but has an M11 310 HP. It has a 9 speed but I only need low gear off road if it's soft. Now I can't remember if 1st gear is the lowest? I don't think so but I haven't drove it for a while. Shifting out of low gear into the next gear is almost impossible, for me anyway. On firm ground it shifts good at about 11-1200 RPM starting off. Once I shift to high range it's much easier and I can shift at about 1600 RPM. The nice thing is when you've got a little speed and it doesn't shift right away you can play with the throttle just a touch and it will pop right in. I've never drove a tandem truck before so it is quite the learning curve. I watched some video's online before I picked the truck up. My biggest issue at first was revving too fast starting off and in low range. The 9 speed seems to work pretty good for my needs. Anymore gears would get confusing. I'm mostly off road though. Truck seemed to run nice at about 62 MPH when I picked it up.
Left and back, opposite of reverse, is typically low and shouldn't be used unless you really need it like you said if it's soft. There's also a blue switch which is deep reduction if your trans has it which is super low gears. You should be able to take off with no throttle
Yeah actually I'm starting to like the 9spd as well, its a very easy transmission to drive. At first I thought it'd be inadequate, but with deep axle gears it works pretty good.
I don't have the granny low but low it has works just fine in soft stuff.
Just finished my first paying job with the truck, had a ditch cleaning job and used it to haul off the soil/muck. Was very soft, driving the mini ex over the yard was like driving on a water balloon. Laid down 3/4 plywood to drive the truck on and loaded it very light, maybe 5cu yds or less. The yard portion wasn't bad on the plywood, but the other half was in a pasture so I didn't use the plywood. With those bald tires I was playing with fire, but with the lockers, light loads and going real easy I managed to get it done without getting stuck or making a mess. Mini loaded the truck no problem. Sorry, crappy flip phone pic is all I got:
That truck needs a tag axle . . . look at all that room, you could almost squeeze two under there, make it a quad!
lol I imagine that's what most people would do. For the type of work I do a nice 4' tool box on each side, or tool box/fuel tank would be more useful. All that is on the drawing board, tires and hitch are next.
The company truck has 100 gallons of red fuel on the left side and the pump is in the box on the right. It sure beats packing cans or bringing another truck with the tank in it, when you are driving the dump truck day to day.
With the red on the truck does the dot ever give a hassle
never. They can stick the truck tank and it will come up clean. I think that the guy before me had that happen once. They have test sticks that will show the smallest bit of dye.
I wonder how much? I filled a 55 gal drum with red once and emptied it into a off road truck, filled it back up with clear and no red in sight.
I've often wondered that, too. I've had to change filters in the middle of the day and had nothing but red fuel in available to fill them with.
I have a small can with no dye fuel on the flatbed. I would not risk playing with the Department of Revenue.
Deleted.
One quart of atf in 50 will turn it pink.
I'll probably never get pulled over, different service than you guys. I was always told a little that die goes a long ways but apparently 55 gallons it doesn't go at all
It's only a 10K fine the first time around---roll the dice, life is just a crap shoot.
A couple jobs ago I was filling road diesel in a oilfield pulling unit, owners nephew tells me I need to put red it, I refused. He tells me all sorts of bs about tax exempt and a bunch of stuff I actually know 100% about while someone else might not. Fact is they changed it around 2007-08 that you could not run red diesel in pulling units anymore. He made such a a huffy.
I got your barn door tailgate
Lol I bet he got to where he was going, tailgate was ‘still’ closed and he was none the wiser. In all seriousness, if that had swung into an oncoming vehicle it could have been really bad.
I think the Ha Ha button should be operable for several punches on that video.
I can't believe how perfectly it scalloped that window out of the back of that van. I don't think it hurt sheet metal that bad.
Sadly, it looks like that is likely an Aussie truck as the door is on the LHS, away from oncoming traffic. Can only be put down to operator error as there is no way the door can come open if it is closed properly. In the case of our water truck, we have the door securely bolted to the body but would have to remove it if operating in town.
Got the new tires installed a while back and hadn't had a chance to update this thread. With full lock up on the rears and these new tires the truck goes extremely well. The truck went up a muddy hill my 4wd pickup wouldn't go up, sure makes tailgating base rock on new roads easier. Also got the new compressor installed. That was a miserable job, had to remove P/S pump, fuel pump, filter housing, etc to get it out, then one flat (12pt nonetheless) at a time on some of those bolts. Including time to clean everything, drain and refill fluids, chase threads, etc it took 8hrs. New compressor doesn't pump up any faster than the old one, takes about 10min at idle to go from 0 to the 130psi cut-out, seems like a long time but IDK. Also not sure the compressor was entirely at fault for the oil problems in the air system, seem like there is some oily residue coming in the air intake pipe for the compressor. Pipe just goes straight into a passage in the head, where is it actually picking the air up from? I'll monitor the situation but I might need to figure out why oil is entering the compressor.
Filling complete air system-10 min about normal--it's only 13.5 cfm compressor. At 1400 rpm it will be about 5 min. Test is only from gov kick-in at 90 psi to 120 at 1000 rpm. Oil could have or be from turbo, the main source before compressor. And yes cummins stacked everything on one side requiring curved & S wrenches.
I'll keep an eye on the air system oil issue, I have another more pressing issue that may or may not be related. Ever since I got the truck I noticed it had a slight miss under load, rhythmic to engine RPM, as if one cylinder was a little weak. It's more noticeable when the engine is cold, or after a long down hill grade when you get back on the throttle (blows a tiny bit of white smoke like unburned fuel). I'm suspecting an injector issue but want to systematically work through it. First thing I need to do is run the overhead, have a few questions on that. Let me preface this by saying I fully understand how to adjust the valves on engines (have done more than I can count, OHV, OHC, valve lash on mechanical lifters, preload on hyd lifters, etc) but have never dealt with these Cummins cam driven fuel systems. The Cummins shop manuals I have don't list the valve/injector adjustment procedure for the L10 Celect engines, says to refer to bulletin 3810361 which I don't have. There is also very little info online about running the overhead on these L10 Celect engines. From my reading on other Cummins (N14, 855 etc) you can adjust them on the inner base circle (injector closed) or outer base circle (injector open). The outer base circle method seems to be the more commonly accepted method nowadays and more accurate on an older/high mileage engine. From what I gather the outer base circle method requires no special tools. Is this basic procedure the same on an L10 Celect vs an 855 or N14? If not what's the procedure? Thanks as always, the information I've gained from this forum has been invaulable, I try to give back where I can.
Use a infrared temp gun on exhaust manifold at port to head and find the cold cylinder first. Out of adjustment valves & injectors 99% of the time make for a low power issue rarely a cylinder miss fire. Will probably find injectors are fairly close, intakes slightly tight and exhaust slightly loose. Outer base--is injector setting on one cylinder valves on another--big cam Inner base is injector & valves all set on one cylinder in firing order. * Inner base is used on Celect engines--N14. was also small cam. You just need the valve & injector spec's I don't have bulletin 3810361.
Data tag on the engine is hard to rear but I think it says: Engine No 34819560 Family TCE61 1EGDARW Model L10-300 Date of Mfg 4/96 Ref No CUST21111 As for the settings it does say on the tag .014/.027 for the valve lash and injector setting "TS ZERO LASH"
I checked with a temp gun before and found very little difference between the cylinders, I'll try it again at some various levels of engine load/temp and see if I can find anything. Thought I'd run the overhead first just to make sure. My next best guess is a sticking/dirty injector or low compression on one cylinder.
What you have by date is more than likely STC. STC engines are outer base circle as are big cams. 14 & 27 is standard for valve settings. But the injector procedure for STC- TS which stands for Top Stop injector changed---The TS injector used in a STC engine is not the same as a TS injector used in a big cam. A real clear set of photos of left side of engine would help. * 3810361 is a complete celect manual for the L10. Cummins Troubleshooting & Repair Manual CELECT System L10 Engines 3810361-01 # | eBay This is a USED Cummins Troubleshooting and Repair Manual CELECT System L10 Engines. is 3810361-01. Printed 4/90. The manual obviously shows signs of use and aging (as pictured) but the pages are in good condition. www.ebay.com
Ok thanks for the information. I'll try to get some pics of the engine tomorrow so we can figure out exactly what it is.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I think this is probably a completely mechanical engine and not a Celect. Throttle linkage is purely mechanical with rods and bellcrank, haven't seen any sort of ECM or injector wiring harness, only wire running to the fuel pump is the shut off solenoid. I'll take a closer look tomorrow and get some pics.
It still could be a Step Time Control {STC}, with a oil pressure control box mounted on the side of engine block just above the oil pan on the left side. STC uses oil pressure to control advance/retard in the injectors.
Ok so no pictures needed, it is indeed a STC engine. If I'd had spent a few min reading the shop manual and looked at the engine before posting I'd have know that. Now that I know what I'm looking at, the procedure is well outlined in the shop manual. When I get a chance I'll run the overhead and report back what I find. I don't have the special Cummins injector tappet tool, but I think I can figure it out. In the meantime I'll check again for cold cylinders with my IR heat gun.
Cummins in the late 80's through mid 90's had a allot of overlapping engine varieties. Plus by the time the electronic series {Celect} came on the scene Cummins was setting on STC engines they wanted gone. * Now one of the big issues with STC injectors was the early adjustment specifications. There was a injector locking tool and set a 6 inch lbs using inner base circle method-by the manual. Only the N14/855 got a updated injector specification. IIRC. But it might be worth while to call CFI--Chatham Fuel Injection, Ontario Can. They have a FB page. The STC L10's had odd things about them that even Cummins didn't cover very well in a manual.
This was posted by funwithfuel in another L10 cummins thread. Is this the 'new' way to adjust the L10 STC injectors? Working on running the overhead now, lots of conflicting info online.
Info from the Data tag: Engine No. 34819560 Family TCE611EGDARW Model L10-300 Date Mfg 04/96 Ref No. CUST21111 Valve Lash Cold .014 Intake, .027 Exhaust In Set Course Inj TS Zero Lash Inj Timing Code 1L CPL 1866
I've used this method on every STC for the last 25 years or so. I have never had luck with 6in/lbs holding the timing valve up. Every one has smoked like a pig. When I learned the "new way" was the first time I'd ever seen one run smoke free. Good luck.
And that's correct--the locking tool was a after thought from the start. The thing is depending on injector series it could have several different settings. I don't have the injector torque settings for a L10 STC. But as noted below with 885's that had STC, there were variations. * NTCIV CPL's 821, 833, 903, 904, 806 set @ 105 in.lbs. NT88 BCIV CPL's 827, 910, 1185, 1188, 1210, 1211, 1256, 1280 set @ 90 in.lbs. N14 CPL's 1374, 1380, 1395, 1405, 1507 set @ 125 in.lbs. * So depending on CPL for a L10 STC it could be anywhere. You might try calling this pump shop Chatham Fuel Injection Service--877-464-8044. It's a Canadian injection shop that specialized in STC injection.
When they had a .com website, it was Chock full of anything you wanted to know. I have it bookmarked but unfortunately, it is no more.
I called Chatham Fuel Injection this morning. They said they had computer/server/domain issues and the main website is down along with all the info, although they hope to get it back up at some point. The only thing they had handy was a Cummins bulletin on the STC OBC setup protocol on the N14/NT88 Cummins. While the procedure would be the same as the L10, it doesn't give torque specs for that engine. I've read anywhere from 72in-lbs to 120in-lbs from various sources on the net, but nothing reputable. For now I'll just set it by the book on the IBC method and see what I have. I did buy a beam type inch pound torque wrench that goes from 0-80in-lb in 2lb increments, so at least I can get close. I think there are deeper issues than the overhead, but I want to cross things off systematically.
Use the way back machine and see if the site on there
Your not going to hurt it setting at 72 inch lbs. The issue with setting at 6 in lbs with locking tool is it's just barely removing any slack which causes internal wear at the plunger.
Just poked around a little on there with that, nothing of any value was archived.
Just finished running the overhead and taking a few measurements, used the IBC method with 6in-lbs. Few things I found: -measured cam lift on the fuel lobes, all were good, within .005" or less of each other -push rods all were straight -valve lash was very tight, almost no lash on the intake side and less than .020" on the exhaust. -set all the intake to .014", exhaust to .027" this was with the motor dead cold, about 35* F -set the injector preload to 6in-lbs using the IBC method. Truck doesn't smoke, even after cold start it cleared up in less than a minute, no white haze on decel/long down grades. Still has a miss and if anything runs worse now, idle seems rougher too. Whatever I did didn't seem to help. Might try running the overhead on the injectors again tomorrow and use the OBC method with 72in-lbs and see what happens. Part of the problem might be my made in China torque wrench isn't accurate enough for 6in-lbs, or I just don't know what I'm doing lol. Still think I might need a set of injectors, but perplexed by what I did to make it worse...
One other thing, there is reference to purging the oil out of the STC system before running the overhead in some cases. Is that for either the OBC or IBC method? I didn't do that, wonder if that could have thrown things off.
I use nothing but a Snap On Torqometer dial type inch pound for setting Cummins injectors. Run the injector adjusting screw down to 30 inch pounds several times and back off then set to spec. It pushes the fuel/oil out by doing that. But one issue is the oil delivery tubes to injectors--those are o-ring sealed and have a bad tendency to leak oil pressure to injector for step time control.
Did the overhead again this morning using the OBC method and 72in-lbs. Much easier and the truck runs as good or better than when I started. Before I backed off each injector rocker I checked it to see what torque they were at out of curiosity, after doing the IBC method previously. They ranged from 80in-lbs to 110in-lbs, which couldn't have been good. That might have had something to do with it running poorly after I did the IBC method, lesson learned. While the truck is running better, it's still not completely right. I think I have a cylinder or two that are a bit low on compression. When turning the accessory drive with a bar you can tell that some cylinders have more compression than others as they go past the A, B, C mark. For now I'm going to leave well enough alone, runs plenty fine and I have jobs piling up. I only put a few thousand miles a year on it, it could last for a very long time as is or it could let go tomorrow. The mechanic in me wants it to be completely right (in-frame, injectors, etc), the accountant in me says just run it. For now I'm just going to run it....
The worst part about STC injectors set at 6 in lbs, those had so much internal wear in just 75K miles that once it occurs there really isn't much that can be done except replace them with rebuilt.
In all likelihood it does need a set of injectors, but I hate to throw too much money at an engine that may need an overhaul in the near future. 3074250PX is the P/N for my injectors, prices were all over the map for reman units, from $250/ea from Fleet Pride to $575ea from a reputable diesel injection shop. What I should do is pull the injectors and verify the compression on each cyl with a gauge and go from there, just haven't gotten up the ambition to do that yet.
I've been hauling a lot on a job I'm doing in the city, lots of stop and go. There are a few annoying things I need to get fixed. First is the brakes grabbing. The pedal has a little bit of a 'catch' to it, you have to be very gently or precise when applying the brakes or it will cause the brakes to grab. When pushing the pedal its like once it gets past that little catch it applies way more brake than you want. The problem is in the pedal/valve, not the brakes themselves. Just some ideas on what to look for before pulling the valve assy out. Truck sat unused for a couple years before I bought it, not sure if something is just gummed up, worn out, or what. Looks to be an E-7 firewall mounted, suspended pedal setup, according to the shop manual.
E-7 would be correct, E-6 floor mounted. Just make sure overhead pedal swing is smooth once valve is removed. Those valves do get dry inside especially if brake deicing fluid was used regularly. The other issue can be a dry R12 relay valve at center or on the inside of frame between drive axles. Used liquid Teflon sealer on NPT threads, tape has a tendency to leak.
Check your QRV . See if it still has the aluminum tag with the Ford PN. See if it matches up with what Ford/Sterling calls for. I've seen guys swap 0 psi crack pressure where a 3 or 6 psi belong. That'll make a huge difference in braking "feel"
What is the QRV? I am quite interested in this discussion as my truck has always had really "grabby" brakes; they will lock up real easy empty. What is the difference between E7 brake valves? Seems like there is a wide renge of price differences, from $180 up to around $500.
Quick release valve
Follow service lines from brake chambers down to the T . That should be your quick release valve.
Quick release {QRV-QR1V} feeds spring/parking brakes--R12 relay feeds and exhausts service brakes. Unless it was rigged with Quick Release between R12 Valve and service brake on brake chamber for a early anti-compounding system. Diagram below. *
Below is a anti-compounding braking system for tandem--this is a system I built for my mack show truck. What it does is evens braking psi and exhausts air from service/foot valve immediately as foot is removed from pedal it doesn't exhaust through R12 but through the QR valves on each side. Because that mack required no front brakes, nothing exhausted through the foot valve either with this set up. Compounding is both chambers of a 3030 can with air on service and parking at same time. Just a old way of doing it and why in the diagram above there is a green line/hose going from service to the balance port of the QR-1C valve. , *
Ok thank yall. Between this and the service manual you've given me a good start, might look at it this weekend but might be a few days until this job is done. Upon further reading the LT series in tandem truck applications (not tractor) look to have an E-14 foot control valve, if I'm reading this right. I'll find out more when I get into it I guess.
What is the TC-7 valve in the diagram? Is that a trolley brake?
The spike
hand valve for trailer brakes.
Ford LN-LT series could come either way with different foot valves, E7 or E14 because both are equipped to pull trailers, I've seen either/or with single axle or tandem. E7 the more popular.
I've always wondered why it's called a spike
Just jargon--like Johnny Bar, Lazy Bar, Trailer Smoker, Flat Spot lever--what ever.
The R model Mack I drove years ago had the tractor package on it, but it was a tandem dump truck. When the red button was pulled, the spike would put on the tractor brakes. Handy when you were dumping. Never drove another truck that would do that.
Yeah that was a Mack thing only.
I drive a lot of straight truck only, one had the Johnson bar plumbed into the truck brakes, was really handy backing up, I check each truck for that now
It's easy to do by installing a DC4 shuttle check valve. But can have side effects with age. If shuttle gets debris in it and doesn't shut completely to foot valve it will cause back feed. And if person trouble shooting doesn't know--he will chase his tail. But on a tractor, trailer brakes have to be independent of tractor system as per DOT.
The trucks I drive have 2-6 shuttle air valves on them
Really, got some photos?
I don't have a pic of them installed in place but here is the install diagram on half of them for two air shifters for a 750 transmission. Many people still use this exact setup although now costly and unavailable. The other shuttle valves are on the throttle as there is 2-4 air throttle inputs, my rig has 4 air throttle inputs so I have 4 (I think) shuttle valves. The air throttle are still current tech even with the new Allison electronic transmissions so you will still have a bunch with them. My 750 trans has been converted to electronic shift so I don't have those shuttle valves for the shifter anymore, but I still do have them and the mount in my shed. The air shifter setup below is $5000+ I imagine these shuttle valves get used a lot so they stay free and in good working order, one on a johnny bar might get seized up like you said fast.
While at the quarry today another driver stopped me and asked if I needed any parts for my truck. He has 3-4 L9000 Fords that he is parting out. What parts interchange between the L series and the LT series? I know there are a lot of differences, including the cab itself. Of the parts I can use, what are some good things to grab as spares? Mostly looking at body/chassis/interior stuff, all of his have different engines/trans than mine.
Dash items.
Under dash parts too, ie accessory relay, HVAC components
What about door components: window regulators, handles, latch mechanisms, etc, will they be the same on L vs LT?
I believe so.
L"T" just means tandem axle L series.
Years ago it was LT Hippy chick---light but tough.
Then why all the L9000's with tandem drives?
With ford it was mix & match--those prefixes in allot of cases don't mean much.
LN, LNT had a short hood. The back of the fender was attached to the cab. L and LT had the longer hood, what I picture when I hear Louisville. LS, and LST had the long hood, but a set back front axle, and then the LTL was supposed to be an over the road truck, all fancy and stuff
https://www.xr793.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/1987-Ford-L-9000-V1.pdf This is neat, explains it better
Oh boy---I think there was a major discussion about all the fords. Look in some old HEF threads.
Single axle's weren't as common but they were made. The link cuttin edge posted shows a single axle L9000 fire truck. I've seen other single axles too, included some plow trucks. L9000's typically had bigger engines than L8000's.
Holy moly---Road Way & others had scads of single axle 9000's. It was based on BBC and what could be fit under the hood. But there were also LTL's built with single axle and those were just listed as L9000's, again most of it was BBC.
Actually it was really common to have single axles with a trailing axle. Mostly old gas jobs, but I remember a lot of old louisvilles around with 290 cummins. A lot of guys would run them to save weight so they could haul a bit more
That was fords standard huge power plant complete with no jakes off the lot.
I can see them now layin over like a beige dodge slant 6.
HeavyEquipmentForums
I'm getting ready to weld the butt plate on for the pintle hitch, problem is the truck won't fit completely in the shop on the concrete floor. Only bay I have that is tall enough and doesn't have a lift in front of it isn't deep enough. Got the truck backed in with the tandems on the concrete, front end on the gravel. I leveled the gravel with the laser level so the front wheels are level side to side. Placing a level across the frame front, middle, rear it's a little off, maybe a 1/4" of twist over the length of the truck. Should I shim under the wheels to get the frame flat/true or just have all the tires sitting level? With 500K mi of vocational use I'm sure some springs are sagging, things get tweaked etc. I just don't like the thought of welding a twist into it even if that's where it wants to sit. Or maybe I'm just over thinking it?
Yes you are overthinking it. Relax and get er done!
Ok, next thing to consider: butt weld to the frame or notch in. I've been looking at all the other tandems around with pintle hitches and 75% are butt welded to the frame. That's what I intended to do here and had the plate cut as such. Pros clears brake chambers, more room to mount D rings, plate will have more rigidity in the vertical plane, looks better. Cons, only has about 4-5" of vertical weld on the frame. (Frame has 6x6x3/8 angle notched in for dump bed pivots) Option 1, use plate as is, butt weld: Other option would be cut plate down by about 3.5" on each diagonal to clear brake chambers and notch plate to fit inside frame. Pros very strong attachment to frame, Cons plate itself might be weaker, less room for D rings. Option 2, cut down and notch plate: Either one will be heavily gusseted with 12x12x1/2 plate gussets from the plate to the web of the frame. In either case to clear the brake chambers they will be canted 45* and land about where the lines on the second photo are. Again, I might be overthinking this. With an L10, 9spd and no jake it's not like this truck is going to be towing 60k+. Maximum would be 40k, 90% of the time more like 20-25k.
I had a 1” plate bumper pull hitch fabricated for our IHI 9200, parked on flat ground and welded and bolted (1-1/4” (2) bolts fine thread (and red locktite) hitch plate to frame. Feel that end result is plenty strong and loads sit level. You should have a good strong hitch with your approach!
How thick is that material?
Butt plate is 1" thick, gussets are 1/2" thick
if I think of it, I'll get pictures of one of the trucks at work
That's some thick stuff--heaviest I ever used was 5/8".
Ok thanks. That looks very similar to my original approach, butt weld, weld all the way across the horizontal angle iron, good gussets. Looks like they added some mounts or cross member that is bolted to the frame to attach the gussets to. I'll look and see if that is feasible or if I should just weld the gussets to the frame. I'm guessing that truck sees heavier loads than I'll be towing and looks to be working fine.
I might make a plywood pattern of the notched design to see the feasibility, but I think the butt welded will be 100% adequate. If you do the math the strength is incredible, 1sq in of 7018 weld has a tensile strength of 70,000lbs. We are talking FEET of weld attaching it to the frame.
See if I can get a pic with the box up after. Our other trucks have the plate angled like yours. They changed the law last year, and we can't put our own hitch on anymore so this one came from a welding shop. Funny thing is that they took pictures of one of our trucks to get the design
I notched my plate. Felt it made for laying in a nicer weld. Also easier to keep in place prior to welding. No brake cans to worry about, though.
It's nice if the pintle and plate is far enough forward, that material coming from the tailgate doesn't land in/on the hitch. Packed full of fines, the latches can get difficult.
Do like some--attach a 8"x10" piece of mud flap on a hinge to cover hitch.
I'd use something like 8018 instead of 7018 for welding because the truck frame is likely higher tensile strength than any mild steel. Welding the plates to each other could use 7018 but to the truck frame use 8018 (8018C3) or a higher strength specialty rod in the 80-90,000 PSI range. Don't use something like 11018 unless you know the frame is T1 steel which is unlikely. Too high of tensile rod could cause cracking on lower tensile steel. 8018 is a good compromise.
Just use 6013 . . .
Put enough on there it would probably stay. The 8018 would be less work!
Frame tensile psi on that L is 90,000. Ford used that on almost all frames.
After much deliberation I decided to go ahead and notch the plate. Made a plywood template and flexed the truck out fully on a steep bank to push the brake chambers up and back as far as they'd go, adjusted plate size and location accordingly. Didn't have to cut as much off the plate as I originally thought. Notched the plate out on both side, trimmed the edges to width and cut 2.5" off the bottom: This Milwaukee dry cut metal saw works amazingly well, pretty sure it's not rated for 1" plate but it cuts it just fine. Cuts are ready to weld, no grinding/cleanup like with the torch. Fitted in place, looks good and should be plenty strong.
I think ours is 1/2" That is crazy thick. Back Hurts just looking at it!
I did get a decent portion of the welding done today as well, just using 7018 as I always have, will be plenty strong with the notched/gusseted plate. It's a real hell hole to weld in there on the back side of that plate. Only less than a foot to the rear axle, barely enough room to squeeze in and get positioned to weld. Had to cut my rods in half to have enough room to make the welds, this is one time I wish I had an auto-darkening helmet....
Must be a regional thing, monkey see monkey do lol. Almost all the single axles you see around here use 5/8" or 3/4", all the tandems run 1". That plate I'm using weighs right at 150lbs, used the floor jack to lift and position it on the truck.
I don't know--built allot of those for tandem use never used anything over 5/8. But a person needs to do what he thinks is comfortable.
Sometimes I tend to go overboard lol. Pintle I'm using is rated for 90000lbs and 18000lbs tongue weight, main reason I got it was it was USA made.
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Did you preheat the 1" plate? The welds will be the weakest point.
Buyers 337PH45
Yes, preheated to ~200* F. I use a 500k btu propane weed burner torch and an IR temp gun to check it.
Finally finished the hitch, turned out good I think. Took lots of fiddling around with angles and clearances and different fittings to get the air chambers to clear under the full range of suspension. Got at least an inch with the axle against the frame and loaded rearward, hopefully that's sufficient. Trailer plug is mounted above clearance lights and wired (7 way RV style) only thing left is the trailer brake controller.
Nice work.
Nice job! We used 1” Plate for a 14k bumper pull, no doubt overkill but can’t be criticized when passing scales here, bolted (1 1/4” fine thread) and two plates welded to frame & each other with 223 Arctec. I also welded large D rings as you show… We are using the same drive tire tread, nice for off road use.
This was meant for MG84. You don't have much room but we would come from the inside of the frame to the backside of the plate for the pintle hitch with two pieces of strap steel. You are probably plenty heavy with the 1in. If you ever see one start to deflect the gusset on the back side will stop it.
We have two boom trucks and I think they are both 3\4 but I think 1in is the way to go.
Do you have some good pics. of the welds?
Looks good. We have to run a Reese style hitch as the hitch won't work in the asphalt, or shoulder spreaders
Unfortunately the only pics I have are variations of the ones I posted. The welds are good though, strong and look nice. Esab Prime 1/8" 7018 from a fresh hermetically sealed package, all vertical were done vertical up, multiple pass, no undercutting, proper heat/preheat, leg of the fillet equal to or greater than the thinner material, etc. Used my Miller Dialarc 250, DCEP 110-130 amps depending on position. Only weld that doesn't look as good as the rest is on the underside of the 45* gusset on the right, its sound just not as even as the rest. Clearance on those was incredibly tight both for the rod/holder and visibility, laying on my back, vertical up/overhead, left handed.
I didn't realize you had the gussets on there until I looked a little closer and reviewed a few more pages. Looks good.
I have had several logging trucks that pulled pup trailers, always used 1" plates with gussets for the pintle hitches. I bought a new dump truck a few years ago. I had a 1" plate and gussets made and installed for a pintle hitch. Occasionally use a 25 ton trailer for equipment behinf the dump truck. I have always used the air snubber type of pintle hitch. FWD
Air snubber, I didn't know what they were called. That pup had a 24ft bed and would track perfectly with the truck in a turn. I drove that type of setup for 50 years.
Slack reducing or no slack.
Holland calls it air-cushioned, It has an air brake chamber on the inner side of the hitch. I believe it would be slack reducing because you could never have no slack with air. Premier also makes a pintle like this as well as Holland. They work really well for what I have used them for. The air is supplied to the air chamber when you charge the air to the trailer. FWD
A type 30 brake chamber @ 100 psi creates 3000 lbs of force.
The last one I put on the Dump Truck 4 years ago had a Type 24 brake chamber. FWD
Some are most are not.
Towed the mini-ex home with it today, saved me a 50mi round trip with the other truck. Not much of a load, but a good trial. Everything worked well and it actually doesn't have as big of a turning radius as I had figured. Was in some residential areas and downtown today and had no problem getting around.