So we are starting to get projects more often that require a way bigger excavator. Been looking over the internet for machines and we lean towards the 20 ton over the 25 just for ease of transport over the 25. I guess the question would come down to would I regret not going a bit bigger then a 20 or would the 20 still be viable. A lot of the projects are clearing 1-10 acre lots, demos, ditch extension and maintenance,
Depends. Are you set up to haul a 25 tonner or will you have to buy something else on top of the machine? Also, do you have someone that can operate a 25 toner machine and get everything out of it?
I'm going to assume you are debating between a 210, and a 250 like we were, and I will say the same thing that an old dirt guy told me twelve years ago. He said if you have been doing ok with the 210, in order to gain production you need a 300, because getting a 250 is just going to make moving it harder, and you will not gain production to make up for it. I'll say you are in the same predicament. Now I have a 290, comes in at 74k, and does at least 50% more work than the 210. I'm not telling you that you need a 35 ton hoe, just that what you will gain is not as much as you might think.
Are you hauling the machine yourself or hiring it out and what machine are you currently using for bigger clearing jobs? I'd think a 200/210 size machine would be a substantial upgrade of what you currently have. Looking at used machines get the one in the best condition. That's probably more important than if it's a 20 ton or 25 ton.
Hire it out and yeah got a guy who used to do mass civil construction so his use to running bigger machines
Well we are using a hitachi 160 right now so anything bigger will increase production rather a 210 or 300
Hire it out if we go bigger we use our dump truck to move a 160 we use currently. Looking at the Volvo 220 currently or a bigger hitachi
How much time are you spending on a job? If youre not moving the machine often its worth it to get the 25 ton and have someone hired to move it, otherwise id just get a 20 ton. The purchase price, operating costs, and productivity is fairly close with a 5 ton weight difference.
I was afraid you'd say you've been getting by with a 160. You're in a tough spot. To really see a measurable increase, you need to get bigger by 50%, so at least a 60k pound machine. Some will disagree, but the overall difference between a 210 and a 250 is considerably less than the difference between a 160 and a 210. From the 160 to the 210, you gain considerable weight, in addition to measurable footprint and reach. From the 210 to the 250, you mostly only gain weight, and a little more power.
I didn't notice you posted you're working with a 16 ton right now. I do agree with Shimmy1 that youll need to jump to the high end of the 20 ton range if not a 30 ton to really notice a difference in overall productivity, otherwise there will be plenty of jobs you end up saying "I could have just used the 16 ton for that".
Are you getting way behind on work by running a 160 or does it just 'feel' like you need a bigger machine? (or do you just have money burning a hole in your pocket.) The most profitable piece of equipment is the smallest one that can adequately and safely do the job, and do it on time. If you're constantly running behind, or are working beyond the capability of the machine then a larger machine might be needed. However, being able to haul the 160 yourself is a huge bonus.
It just depends certain jobs I know could be completed a day faster with another machine and other jobs I don’t think it would make as much of a difference.
That’s more kind of what I was looking for as far as which one to go to I think probably just go with the 210 unless I find a good dead on a 60k pound machine in the next couple weeks
Hard to beat a 315/160 sized machine that can go on a tag behind a dump truck. There is always a lot of low hanging fruit for someone who can mobilize quickly. If you need a 25-30 ton machine on occasion rent it. Cat, Equipment Share and UR both rent 30 ton machines here.
It’s mostly the clearing jobs where we hit a stand of large oak trees and it basically takes everything the 160 has. Still gonna keep the 160 to but I’d rather have something bigger to take some stress off the 160. Ideally I’d like both machines to last me longer and not put them to their limits every time we move to a new job. Might also help with scheduling to move a 160 to a small clearing and then whatever one I go with to a larger clearing and keep both going
When I went and bought that 160 they had a 2008 315 with 6000 hours I really wanted to bring that home to. So far we rent a few times a year from cat and the occasional 210 from a local rental since those are my only choices in town. My only problem with the rental right now is the the projects we are bidding the amount needed to rent would basically cover a cash buy of a decent used machine
And there it is. You are in *almost* the same exact boat I was in 12 years ago. Wondering if a 250 would be much more capable than a 210 in trees. But, I was used to a 210, so for me the answer is a definitive no. For you, coming from a 160, you may think you're in paradise. I'm going to agree with CM here, like I normally do. You need to rent a 320 for a job, and then you need to rent a 323. Then your questions will be answered. The only problem then is you'll be looking for a 4000 hour machine and they'll all look and feel like junk after running the new ones haha.
That is the way in the world of yellow iron. They don't rent machines for you to make money, they rent machines so they can make money off of yellow iron without having to actually do the work with it.
The guy I have that runs a lot of the equipment suggested go buy a 330 or a 300 sized machines. To purchase the 160 I looked high and low for a couple months went out of state to get it all the damn way to Washington state.
The 315DL's were fantastic machines. The D models were some of the best excavators Cat built. Still have a 321DL.
about how United bought out H&E rental
I still see a few come up for sell and a few 320ds. Sometimes they are reasonably priced other times they want the same price as a newer one with lower hours
Short term rental is a tool to have under one's belt. Long term it's exactly as you describe.
There's a reason the D's still bring top dollar. I have been discussing rebuilding our 321DL with my dealer. Not a frame off rebuild just some components.
Maybe I should of bought that 315
How do you bill your jobs, just a price to do everything? If you're mostly needing a bigger machine for large trees perhaps the right attachment like a ripper tooth would let you be more efficient with a smaller machine. Just a bucket dealing with large roots would get old fast. Quick attach. ripper would save a lot of grieve over using a (wider) bucket.
Typically just one price but yeah it’s on the list to purchase digging roots sucks
There's a lot of options for hauling 40-45,000lb machines. 60,000-80,000lb machine hauling, is a little different game.
Yep. I think there are some states where you can haul close to 60k without a permit with the right rig, but by and large, I think at 50k you're pretty much permit-only.
If the clearing is your holdup, skip a 20 ton machine and go for a 30 ton, especially since you're keeping the 16 ton. Clearing is the only work ive done my entire career and run a team of one 30 ton and two 13 ton machines. Trees up to 25" the 13 ton hoes clear real easy with a 24" dig bucket and anything larger the 30 ton handles. Just renting the 30 ton would work better if you're not taking on all large jobs. Not sure of your area and the rate you can charge but ive had machines rented annually and there was still plenty of money to be made while covering the rental fee and just fueling/greasing someone else's machine.
This is the perfect place for that one thread about the guy that had 2 massive excavators bought on the cheap. I don't remember the name of the thread or poster though.............
Over width and overweight is an annual permit here. 150K on weight 14' on width 75' long 12' tall Max single axle weight 22K lbs It's not expensive, couple hundred bucks and a COI for the state. We have one to move the D3 since it's LGP and over width.
A 330D came up for sell up the road gonna go take a look little higher hours then I’d like but fits the budget so no payment on it. worse thing is I spend 35 minutes driving and be disappointed
That will definitely give you a noticable boost in production.
How many hours?
8456
Definitely would see trees coming out faster that’s for sure
Hopefully it was taken care of and ran by someone with a conscience.
small company had it since new guy said was used for mass jobs and loading trucks out of their Pitt
Could be a good machine but that's a huge jump in size. With a bigger machine in addition to being more costly to move will also be more costly to run and maintain. There was a thread awhile ago about someone wanting to get a bigger dozer or maybe it was a 973 track loader. They were a little shocked when someone posted how much more fuel it uses compared to a machine a couple sizes smaller. If your jobs are 10 acres or smaller might be more machine than you need.
Cresting the hours of needed some mechanical work. Probably the reason they are selling it. I have a 321DL with 8K hours on it and it's showing it's age. Still a great machine but I'll need to spend some money on it if we keep it.
I agree with CM...the hours caught my attention. I bought my CAT 320C L 3 years ago...it had 6900 hours. It was running fine but we knew it had a leaking head gasket when we bought it...side note...the local mechanic/evaluator I hired to inspect the CAT was on site with us at first inspection. He knew a lot but missed the head gasket. My son DID see the bubbling where the head met the block...small but there. We bought it knowing it would need a head gasket...I was able to run it 2 years before the gasket had to be replaced. I have also had rebuilt the 2 big boom cylinders, the stick cylinder, the thumb cylinder and the AC is crapping out...I had it serviced last July but it is not cooling again...need compressor? Not sure yet. And I have had to replace at least 6 hydraulic hoses...several were so long and disappeared into the bowels of the CAT that I had the CAT mobile mechanic do them...costly for those guys to show up. And I have replaced several myself...at least two when I was in the backswamp area of my pond and NOT simple to do. On one of them, I had to use a boat to get tools, hose, and hydraulic fluid to the site to make the repair. AND...when CAT was doing the head gasket there were hydraulic issues...PRV, I think...and that took a bit to sort out. Almost forgot...my son and I rebuilt the undercarriage...after I lost a track in the swamp. He walked it out on 1 track for about 80 yards to a point where we could put the track back on (with my Takeuchi TB370 which we used to retrieve the shed track...and the idler assembly...it fell out during his egress from the muck. We replaced the track during a S. GA downpour.) Point is, I suspect anything over 5,000 hours will start demanding service/money to keep it working. Excavators can be unbelievably efficient and powerful...and expensive. Good luck. All the pictures of that thrown track fandango are here: 2023 Jan CAT 320 excavator throws track in Gin Pond - GaryLayton Excavator throws a track -- recovery and repair of CAT 320C track...in the field and by the field...at the mill site. garylayton.smugmug.com
The OP mentioned Demo. If you are really doing a significant amount if it, this is the place where bigger really is better. I have gotten by with a 200 but a 290 made the same jobs cake, and safer and easier to load high sided end dumps, sort crap, all that and more. It is one of those places that does not scale down well. With a 160 that stuff is right in your face and the 200 is not much better. I was tasked with demoing 5 million pounds of form panels with a JD 225. it was too up close and personal to load the 13'6" trucks and they got me a Cat 329 with guards. Night and day.
8600 hours is a little scary for someone that's owned the machine since new to be cutting and running. It's probably at 20-30% on it's second set of rails, or it still has the originals, and they're trashed. So, that begs the question, if the machine really has been that good, why wouldn't they put rails on it? The difference in value of a 8600 hour machine and a 11k hour machine of that size really isn't much different, so you'll need to look deeper. And that's when things really get murky. How close is the engine to needing a rebuild? Could be ready, could run another 5-8k hours. Have they ever broke a line and pumped all the oil out? Did they find a final with metal on the plug at the last service? Too many questions, just have to be willing to roll the dice.
An original owner machine should have some maintenance records. If not, what are they trying to hide?
We're not trying to hide anything. I have over 6000 hours on the 210 we got new. I have changed engine oil pretty much every 250 hours, it has went close to 300 a couple times, but only by accident. Recommended is every 500 hours. I change the oil in the finals and swing box once a year, so usually about every 5-600 hours, recommended is 1000. We grease the bucket daily, the rest of the stick and boom about every 25-30 hours, recommended is 250. I don't have any records, we grease/change oil/filters when the hours require it. I wish I had time to micromanage every machines service history, but I don't. If we ever sell it, you'll just have to take our word for it I guess.
Pic must have been taken right after delivery. There isn't a scratch on it.
Not everyone keeps maintenance records but a lot of bigger operations do. They can certainly help bring higher resale values. Without records it's a case of how much do you trust the seller. Some are straight forward and don't like to deceive people. Other's can be really good at BSing. Sometimes it's easy to tell but some people are really good at BS. As far as hours, some companies just replace machines after so many years or hours. When they can't depreciate anymore they sell them.
You're kind of speaking in extreme generalities. Big outfits either lease, or trade based on warranty, or run until it doesn't make sense because of repair cost, or changing business climate. Depreciation usually only lasts 5-7 years. You depreciate based on the length of time it takes you to pay for it. *Usually*. If you pay cash, a lot of guys write it all off the first year. If you can afford to pay cash, and depreciate over multiple years, that is an enviable position. Smaller guys like me, when I finance, I'm going to depreciate the length of the note. That machine really only starts making me money after it's paid for, so why would I sell it right after it's paid for?
Some outfits buy new machines before or when the warranty runs out. With all the emissions and electronic stuff a breakdown can be costly and time consuming. Bigger outfits do generally keep maintenance records. You should be able to make some profit while still making payments. It shouldn't take 8000 hours to pay for a machine. Otherwise what's the point. I knew a guy that dug pipeline and back in the late 80's was still making a profit renting a Cat 235 hoe for $13,500/month. If all the money you make goes to payments you'll be starving until the machine is paid for. That's a tough way to make a living.
With the reach it had, we kept that pretty pristine. The JD225 it replaced? Not so much. I had a boo-boo with that one that led directly to the bigger machine. I had a ball of rebar to load in one of those 13'6" trucks and nested in that was a 1/2 x 4 by 10' long piece of flat steel. It slipped out and right at the lower (unguarded) glass and took off the foot rest casting easy peasy. Good thing my feet live on the travel pedals! I had told them several times over it was too small for the job, and no guarding etc.
Junkyard machine…… not sure if they had a grease gun or any type of maintenance. It was on its last leg of life not sure if it would make it to 9k hours. Buddy of mine works at a equipment yard they have a link belt I think a 240 he said that just got traded so I’ll go look at it next
Good to put that one behind you. There is a good one out there somewhere.
That 330d if right was renumbered a336. So it’s a big machine
Least this one was only a 45 minute drive and not hours
It was big just ugly and beat up