Hi I got a 272c that when i engage the stick won't lift does not even make the pump make noise responds to lowering or tilting the bucket and will drive around. in mode 1 if I go to mode 2 still same Symptom.wont lift the arms. Will do everything else. Pulled the joystick out to inspect the sensor still like new was changed last yr as it was chewed up. Checked all the fuses all the relays appear to work. I'm guessing this is prolly a selinoid has 2300 hours on it. Nearest cat dealer is a 4hr drive. Any advice on trouble shooting would be nice. No warning lights are present on the panel like last yr when the stick went bad. There's no computer display in this unit and no code reader on site still need to find one for decent price. Told when it stopped working it started being intermittent for few minutes then stopped responding to the joysticks request for lifting.
You can get into the Diagnostic Codes using the procedure on the attachment. Do that and see what you come up with, especially in the form of any Active Codes (Sub-Mode 1). Does it respond to bucket tilt (both forward and back) commands from the joystick.? If I understand you correctly the bucket will not raise but it responds correctly to a lower command from the joystick.?
I don't have the display on the right side that's all blanked out. Yes the bucket will tilt up or down. Just won't lift the arms doesn't matter if I'm in mode 1 or 2 I can't get it to lift the arms no change in pitch of idle or pump when trying to engage the upwards motion
Does that machine have an "emergency boom lower" manual valve in the cab? If so, could it be accidentally engaged?
Pulling up the circled handle opens the valve at the arrow, disabling the oil supply to the boom up circuit, and connects said circuit direct to the tank, so, if pulled up, any attempt to raise the boom would NOT load the pump, hence...no noise.
Had never herd of that befor have to look
Finaly got out to look it's all the way down so don't think its that. Told they were dumping a load of snow when it quit.
Anything els?
You could check each of the valve control solenoid coils, looking for one that is open or shorted. You'll have to compare them electrically to each other, as I dont have the spec. If one is different, it is suspect.. Otherwise, you're gonna have to get Cat ET hooked up to it.
With a Serial Number I could be more confident but picking a 272C RED-prefix machine at random with S/N above 2116 the resistance for those 4 solenoids is listed as 2.2 ± 0.2 ohms.
txs give that a check in the morning no idea about cats et thing
How about a Serial Number.?
get it in the morning its 40km drive out to it cant find my pic of the plate
No rush. It's just that if it gets to that point finding information is far easier with a Serial Number. Basically because you don't have an on-board diagnostic panel as per your reply in post #3 above the only other way of finding what Diagnostic Codes may be present in the machine is to get Cat ET diagnostic software hooked up to it. That is either a job for a dealer or maybe for a local independent mechanic who has ET. There are a few about but I have no idea about your particular area.
there is no mechanics im in the bush remote canada
Here
If it turns out to be a bad selnoid would it be possible to steel one from the tool output since it never gets used?
Hmm that picture u gave me shows 4 and I only see 3
The 3 I see read 2.2 2.3
Found a map of the seslnoids there's 3 more I didn't see the 2 bottom ones are for the arms if I jumper the plugs to the opposite selnoid the up motion works for down but down still does nothing. I've been able to prove my joy stick works and that I'm getting signal to the selnoid There's no yellow triangle I les I leave one of the selnoids unplugged Also I see my hydronic filters leaking can't seem to get it to seal slow drip And that pull Cable mentioned earlyer will not pull up its all the way down as far as I can tell Lubed the throttle pedal as it sticks So at this point I think it's the lifting selnoid as I don't hear the pump even speed up if I try to engage
By doing that you have proved that the correct signals are coming from the joystick as far as the solenoids. Is it possible to interchange the complete up and down solenoid assemblies (not just the coil - the complete valve).? If you do that and down starts working but up does not work then you have found the problem - a defective solenoid valve.
what you mean by complte valve?
also the selnoids i didnt see are burried behind a pile of pipes barly got the conector off
Can you get at the two screws on each solenoid marked "3" (the two inside the circle in other words) and swap the unit on the left for the one on the right.? Those two are the controls for raise and lower. If it is confirmed one of those two is bad you're going to have to get in there somehow in order to replace it.
aww? what am i looking at as thats different then what im looking at or that drawing just a example
That was just something I picked out of the system for a 299D2 as per the thread titel. This illustration is yours based on your Serial Number. Here's a close-up of the solenoid valve. All 6 are the same Part Number. What I meant was interchange two complete valves, not remove the big nut #3 on the end and just interchange the solenoid coils leaving the body of the valve in place.
I dont know how that valve is oriented. Closest pic I could find.
Ironically, there is only one 272C s/n prefix. There is, however, a serial number break.
previous ppage has a photo of the serial number where that thing picture located cause again not what ive seen on my machine
Confused one thread with another. 299D2 vs 272C. The SIS illustration 3 posts above is the one for an RED-prefix machine. I don't know if the attached has any better illustrations.
bunch post edits i see that got confusing for second before they were edited. more clear now now to figure out how one removes these tubes? anything i should watch out for never tore into anything like this seems bit different then the hydraulic drive on slacker here the filter on the back door is also driping hydraulic oil cant seem to figure out why as tight as i can get it was changed last yr at 2050hrs is there a trick to gettting the fuel filter off dented the **** out of it trying to change it with out any success
A decent strap wrench maybe.? How did you tighten it.? See the instructions below - assuming that you are using an OEM Cat filter. Most filters require something like a 1/2 turn after the seal on the filter contacts the filter base. That much of tight usually requires a tool of some sort. Quote: Apply a light coat of oil to the gasket of the new filter element gasket. Install a new filter hand tight until the seal of the filter contacts the base. Note the position of the index marks on the filter in relation to a fixed point on the filter base. Note: There are rotation index marks on the filter that are spaced 90 degrees or 1/4 of a turn away from each other. When you tighten the filter, use the rotation index marks as a guide. Tighten the filter according to the instructions that are printed on the filter. Use the index marks as a guide. For non-Caterpillar filters, use the instructions that are provided with the filter.. Note: You may need to use a Caterpillar strap wrench, or another suitable tool, in order to turn the filter to the amount that is required for final installation. Make sure that the installation tool does not damage the filter.
Fuel filter...obviously you don't have the new fuel filter handy, or, you could see that #2 (lock ring) is to be turned anti-clockwise, and dropped down and off, and then the element pulls straight down.
And, if you move the water bowl to the new element, make sure the "#E" oring is used (many people overlook and omit it by accident.
was not me who mangled it but i had tride to get the ring off and it would not budge someone elss came after me and made the dents we have a donaldson fuel filter for it of some sort ill make note of that oring. is that comon on all that type of filter like on a john deer motors (got 8in stainles steel godwin pumps with johndeer motors ) hydraulic filter is a donaldsson
anyhow after i get the Curved-tooth gear coupling back on the slacker tomarrow ill put the skid back indoors and see if i can swap a selnoid
HMC previously suggested measuring the resistance of the lift & lower solenoid coils. This would detect a solenoid coil that was damaged in some way or even open circuit. Do you have a DMM and enough access that enables you to get into the connections of the two solenoids to measure the resistance.? According to the specifications the resistance of each solenoid coil should be 2.2 ± 0.2 Ohms.
the resitance was 2.2 on them witch i put on previous page anyhow i ordered one for it
Both of them.? Raise & lower.? I saw your reply but was not clear if these were two of the ones that controil the raise/lower function. If that was the case for those two then the suspicion is that the "slug" in the central core, that moves to allow hydraulic to flow when the solenoid energizes, is most likely seized. Did you order a 323-9533 Coil Assembly.? If that doesn't fix the problem then you will need the complete solenoid valve assembly 185-4254 which includes the central core. Be careful when loosening the large nut on the end. Sometimes the nut seizes to the threads and if you pull too hard on the wrench the central spindle will shear off.
only the lower works all of the ones i can acces (4 of6 ) read 2.2ohm
dunno what part number ur list as thats not in my book also u asked if i have a dmm im asuming no as i dunno what that stands for
DMM...Digital Multi Meter. Clearly you do have one, and Nige is confused (too much beach time ), as you measured 4 of them. One part number is for the 12 volt coil and the other is for the guts. Either a coil is bad, the guts are bad, or the relief cartridge for that circuit is bad. You already ruled out the joystick by swapping connectors.
That's what the Cat online parts manual shows for your particular machine Serial Number RED01023. The complete Control Valve is 258-2504. in that assembly there are 6 identical 185-4254 Solenoid Valves. The 185-4254 Valve is available complete or alternatively the 323-9533 Coil Assembly is available separately. I assumed that the 323-9533 was what you ordered when you said you'd ordered a solenoid.
tride it today. swaped still same so tride the new one on the selnoid thats in the back as well barly got it no change
Sorry your post is not clear. Did you just swap solenoids or did you swap the "guts" (HMC's post #42 above) of the valve as well.?
this
my china et came dont see anything that points me to anything thinks the selnoids doing what it needs too no active codes just stored ones from when my alt was bad 10yrs ago and when the joystic failed last yr it sees the joystick moving around in the software in 1 or 2 mode
Does it show the joystick position as a % signal.? Something like 50% when in the centre, close to zero when moved one way, and close to 100% when moved the other way.? Post a photo of the what you see on ET screen might be an idea.
They look OK. I'm struggling to remember this but do you have a screen where it shows the signals being received by the solenoids on the control valve.?
think so as theres one apage has 0-100 that goes to 100 when i push worward and 0 and not engaging stick sitting and then pushing and pull
That's the one. "Raise solenoid" & "Lower solenoid". They should be at zero with the lever in the centre position and 100 or close to it when the lever is fully in that direction. So that basically proves everything external is working as it should. The problem has to be in the control valve somewhere, maybe in the relief valve cartridge for the lower side as HMC mentioned previously.
would that be K on this drawing?
part k on the above no change part number #216-6161
I went through this whole thread and get to the end of it and there is no resolution as to what actually fixed the problem. Can you please let me know how this was resolved. I am having the exact same problem after replacing the hydraulic pump that was cracked. I have replaced the lift solenoid and tried a new joystick. I returned the joystick to cat after no change. My Serial Number is RED00801. Thanks.
Can you describe exactly what symptoms you have right now and what you had before the pump was replaced. Also please can you provide a photo of the instrument panel in the upper RH corner of the cab.
O sorry sure here The issue was the cylinder seals went and took out the valve body for the hydrolics cost 15k to fix in the end. Woind up taking to a cat mechanic who did same things I did then dug into it deeper in a cleaner dust free environment. That was a new cylinder and valve body said the seals failed in a way it was cheaper to replace then repair due to scoring on the cylinder and couldn't get the manged lift valve body out as part got stuck in it. The issue was result of a operator being careless in -30 temps leaving stuff parked outside when told multiple times not to do do that and not letting it warm up befor going to use it.
Wow! I hope that is not the problem with mine. I could probably buy a working 272c for $15K. By cylinder seals do you mean the lifting arm cylinder seals or something in the control valve manifold?
There is not an instrument panel just warning lights on the left. I was not driving it when the symptoms occurred. The current symptoms are that it will not lift unless you push the joystick to the left and pull back on it. When it is down, and you push forward on the joystick you can hear the pump but not when you pull straight back. I have replaced the complete lift solenoid valve with no change.
As far as I know, this was not happening until after they replaced the pump. I was originally thinking that there was air in the lift cylinders after draining the hydraulics. I have not looked at the relief valves yet.
did u check the fuses by anychance
yea prolly not the same issue as u but if it was u can prolly rebuild them. hows the pads inside the joystick they can get chewed to crap with sand overtime had this issue think i have a thread on it if u search my posts. and like i said check ur fuses as well there couple of them for the controlls hd issues with them befor myself and if u can get acces to a cat scanner to check ur signals it helps but if its something like wht was with mine that takes diging into it
Q1: Can you get any more information from whoever was driving it regarding what the symptoms were when it failed.? Q2: Was the lift solenoid valve that you replaced new, or at least "known good".? Q3: Is there any chance that hoses were mis-connected when the pump (I assume you mean the work tool pump) was replaced.? Q4: Do you have any pressure gauges.? I would not advise messing with the relief valves until you have some pressure readings - if it gets to that point that is. Personally I would like to see ET hooked up to it first and observe exactly what the electronics are doing before proceeding further. Too many unknowns otherwise. The electronics control the hydraulics so it is necessary to make sure they are working correctly before moving on to the hydraulic side.
I bought a new joystick and tried it out and it did not make a difference so i returned it. I checked the fuses for the joysticks. They were all good. I am curious what Cat ET diagnostic tool you bought.
Q1 - I talked to them and they said it was working fine until the pump went out. A bolt had broken on the pump where it attaches to the engine, which caused the pump to crack inside. There was a lot of hydraulic fluid leaking from the bottom of the unit. Q2 - The solenoid was purchased from Cat. I assumed it was good but I did not test it. Q3 - I assume they reconnected the hoses correctly since all of the other hydraulic functions work. Q4 - I don't think I have any pressure gauges that work for that range of PSI but I could get some. I tested some of the ohm readings on the solenoids but I did not realize that the 2 lifting solenoids were on opposite sides of the manifold at the bottom until I went back through the posts above. I am not sure I replaced the solenoid for the up or down function. I replaced the one that is toward the front of the machine. You are correct about using the ET or testing electrical first. I am obviously just shooting in the dark without error codes or diagnostics.
The illustration below shows the solenoids for lift, tilt and AUX functions. The RH side of the illustration is the side closest to the engine when the valve is installed on the machine chassis. Which reference letter corresponds to the one you replaced.?
P is the one I replaced.
Confirmed that P is the solenoid valve for the raise function. Do you have a digital multimeter that is capable of measuring duty cycle.? EDIT: Scratch the above. There was a failure and a pump was replaced so let's have a look at hydraulic pressures. Try the test of pilot pressure first. You will need a couple of gauges that read to 600psi. Come back with your results.
if the above test does not show u any issues then id pull the valve body to see if any of the valves seized
OK, I will see if I have gauges that will work for the test. Otherwise, I will have to buy some test gauges. It may take a while to get back with you, but I will respond. Thank you for your help. Just a side note, I swapped the connectors for the Lift solenoid and the Tilt solenoid (P and Q in the illustration a few posts above), and the tilt function in one direction did not work, but neither did the Lift function. Don't know if that tells us anything. Anyway, I will run the pressure tests ASAP.
Before you go out buying gauges try not just swapping P & Q but swap C & D as well. Effectively the result of swapping both pairs of connectors on the implement valve solenoids instead of just one pair is that on the implement joystick what used to be the forward/back movements for the lift function will now control the tilt function and the side-to-side will control the tilt function. Do that and report back please. Note that if you eventually go the gauge route you will not only need 2 x 600psi gauges but also at least 1 x 6000psi gauge as well.
do what nige suggested but im leaning to an issue in ur controll valve like i had.
Swapping both pairs of connectors between the lift & tilt solenoids will eliminate all the electronic side in one fell swoop. If the symptoms remain exactly the same then it will be necessary to dig into the control valve. The concept of diagnostics isn't difficult but sometimes has to be tailored to the resources available to the person working on the machine. I never like to suggest opening up hydraulic control valves in anything less than a sterile environment (which this probably is) without a very good reason.
agree why it wound up costing 15k as i just had a dusty lime plant to work in if hes got a garage to bring it in be allot better then a industrial site
I got the gauges yesterday and ran the Pilot test today. I did not do the swapping of connectors on the solenoids because the connectors on the engine side were too difficult to get to. The reading for the pilot pressure was 375 with low idle and 425 with high idle. I guess that is on the low side but not terrible. It seems like the raise function should do something if the lower function works. It makes me think it is electrical instead of hydraulic, like there is no signal from the ECM to the Lift solenoid. The machine is in my shop. I am thinking about buying the Chinese ET software. I would hate to take it to the Cat dealership. Nige, if you really think that swapping the connections on the solenoids would rule out the electrical, I will do it.
Despite the difficulty in accessing the electrical connectors I would still suggest you do that first. Apart from maybe losing a bit of skin in the process it would cost you nothing and would aid the diagnosis. Your other option is to track down a local independent mechanic who has Cat ET and have him read the Codes for you. Even buying non-genuine ET software by the time you have bought both software and hardware (aka Comms Adapter) to hook up to a machine you will still be in about $1000 in round numbers.
OK, I will let you know the results.
I finally got around to swapping the connectors for the control valves and it did not make any difference in the lift function of the machine. It sounds like the spool cylinder is stuck or something is stuck in the control valve for the lift spool. Unless anyone has any other ideas, I plan on removing the work tool control valve assembly. Does anyone (Nige) have instructions for removal and replacement of the control valve assembly? If not, it is no big deal, it would just help to make sure I am not overlooking any procedures. Thanks for all of your help.
OK, so at this point you have eliminated all other options. Attached are the instructions to remove, strip, rebuild, & install for a High Flow Valve. This was the only option available. Your valve only has 3 sections compared to 4 on the HF Valve so it will be somewhat simpler but those 3 sections will all be covered in the instructions. Take lots of photos before you start and mark/identify all hoses carefully. Coloured zip ties are very udeful in this situation.
Thanks Nige. I will let you know what I find.
After removing the control valve assembly, we worked on the lift section of the manifold and removed the two end caps for the spool valve. the spool cylinder did not pull out by hand but I was able to tap it out with a punch. I am guessing that it is not supposed to be that tight. I don't know if the spool cylinder could be machined to fix the problem or if I would need to buy a new control valve assembly. Any thoughts?
The spool should remove from the valve body with nothing more than a light push. When you finally managed to remove the lift valve spool were there any signs of scoring on either it or the inside of the tunnel in the valve body where it fits.? If you find anything please try to take photos the best you can.
my heart just sank ouch
I did not see any obvious scoring on the spool or the tunnel. There was some darker shading around some of the small holes in one area of the shaft. Here are some pics. I don't know if you can tell anything from the picture of the inside. It still has hydraulic fluid on it.
If that spool is too tight in the bore of the valve body then IMHO it ought to be possible to loosen it up by polishing the spool/bore interface with something such as very fine valve grinding compound. When you removed the spool did it reach a certain spot then slide out freely or was it tight all the way out.? Have you tried installing it from both sides to see if you can determine exactly where there is most resistance.? Maybe this is a situation that requires a good look down tat tunnel with a borescope.
It was pretty tight the whole way out. When trying to push it back in from the spring side, it gets resistance as soon as it gets to the first surface in the bore. I think polishing it like you said would work on the shaft. I don't think I would try it on the bore because I don't know how I would clean it out. I think it will only install from the spring side unless I took off the spring. I don't have a bore scope but maybe they have a cheap one at Harbor Freight. When the spool was still in the cylinder, I was able to push on the spring end toward the other end with my finger and it moved about a 3/16". They do not sell just the manifold by itself. They sell it with all of the solenoids and valves attached. It is over $12K with shipping.
That’s because each spool is matched to the bore in the valve body. I think a look inside the tunnel with a borescope looking for dings & scratches would be highly recommended as a first step. If you can borrow a good borescope it might be better than buying a cheap one that doesn’t give a clear enough image. There are a number of them available today where you use the screen on your phone to show the image. Second would be a close inspection of the spool, again looking for dings & scratches. Something has happened somewhere that is causing the spool to bind up, it’s just a matter of finding it.
OK. I will check it out closely and respond.
If it worked OK up to a certain time then didn't work after that then obviously something changed. The logical thing is that a particle, or particles, has passed through the control valve and scarred either the spool or the bore, or both. Why don't you remove the implement hydraulic filter and cut it open to check for particles in there. Ideally that's where all contamination should end up. Here's a good YT Video that shows you how to do it. Yes I know it's an engine oil filter he's cutting open but the principle is the same.
while ur at it check ur lift cyldinders. on mine one of them had a failure that caused this
used one for 650ish i see here https://www.ebay.com/itm/187540589370
Good point. It would be a shame to do a load of work on the valve to get it back operational only to have the same problem repeat itself simply because the source of the contamination was not identified. That’s why cutting the filter open is important.
yes! check the filter something happend but check the cylinders
I can see scoring on the spool. Clean it up with fine emery cloth until it slides smoothly in the valve bore. Usually, when I have run across this a cylinder is failing and contaminates the solenoid valves and locks the spool up
Going back a few posts it was stated by the OP that the spool was tough to remove all the way out of the bore in the valve body. That would lead me to believe that not only is there scoring on the spool but also on one or more lands in the bore of the valve body. Back to my suggestion earlier of needing a half-decent borescope to take a look down the hole.
Thanks for the great advice. I received my bore scope last night, so I will be looking at the inside of the manifold today. I will open the filter up and see what I can find as well. As far as the lift cylinders, I would imagine that the lift would do something, even if it did not raise much, but I think you would at least hear some noise from the pump attempting to push fluid, but there was not any when pulling back on the joystick.
Without me having to read back through 5 pages, have the boom cylinders been completely checked and eliminated?
No. Actually you don't have to go back that far. There have been different machines on this thread of which this one is the latest. Go back to Page 58 at the bottom of Page 3. If the spool was not moving in the valve body then there is no reason why the lift cylinders should move. The engine note would not change either, again because the lift function spool was stuck.
That looks like it might be a high flow version, but I appreciate you looking for one.
I can't say that they have been eliminated, but they worked before the hydraulic pump was replaced. We were originally thinking that the lift cylinders had air in the lines after draining the fluid and replacing the pump. But I agree with Nige that it is currently a stuck spool that is the problem.
Does anyone have a recommendation for what type of fluid should be used to clean the hydraulic parts off with?
But the spool is stuck for a reason, which is contamination. That is coming from somewhere in the circuit
The logical options at this time appear to be either debris from the previously-failed pump (I assume the implement pump not the hydrostatic drive pump) that was not cleaned out from the system after the failure, or debris from the lift cylinders.
OK, so I looked inside the bore of the spool cylinder with the scope and it looks like there are pretty significant scratches on most of the landing areas that are supposed to be smooth. Also, I noticed some particles and in one of the flow port areas there were some fairly large pieces that looked like polished slag (like they were bouncing around in there for a while and were polished). I cut the filter open and did not see any particles on the inside of the filter. Now I am at a loss for what to do unless I can flush the system somehow and spend $12K on the new control valve. Or scrap it out for parts or sell it at an auction.
Cleaning out a hydraulic system is not difficult, it's just time consuming if you do it the right way because every component, hose, line, & valve has to come off and be cleaned/inspected and refitted.
Google the valve part number. There may be some used pulloffs out there
You want 258-2508. May also be listed under 258-2504. It seems there may be one quite close to you. If the seller still has it available ask them how many hours were on the machine it was removed from. Remember that even if you replace the control valve it doesn't fix the problem. There is still the small matter of the rest of the system to clean, and to find out where all the shrapnel came from in the first place.
Pull the boom cylinders apart. I just have this feeling......
Agreed. It could well have been debris from a lift cylinder that took the implement hydraulic pump out.
Here is an update on the 272c. I found a used control valve that seems to be in pretty good condition ($1600 from ConEquip). I took the tank off and cleaned it out. The tank had quite a bit of plastic and metal particles (some of them 1/8" to 1/4" in size) I took off both lift cylinders and took them to a hydraulic cylinder repair shop. They just called me and said that one of them was good and the other one had a bent rod with major destruction of the ram, so I will have to find one of those. I am going to begin the process of cleaning the rest of the hydraulic system. Ugh! If anyone can point me in the right direction to a good step-by-step procedure for cleaning the system, that would be great. Mainly how to flush the hoses and what fluid to use. Great call Vetech63 and Nige!
The hoses are usually subjected to a process called projectile cleaning, often referred to as sponge-gunning. Check your messages.
Just as a final resolution to this problem, I ordered a used control valve ($5500) and installed it. I cleaned the hyd oil reservoir, put new filters in the reservoir and rear of the machine and new hydraulic oil and it is running again. I also replaced one of the lift cylinders. The old one had a bent shaft and blew up which caused the catastrophic failure. I did not do a complete cleaning of the hoses as suggested by Nige, bc it would have been a nightmare to do. I am crossing my fingers that the filters will catch any remaining particles. Probably wishful thinking, but so far so good. I want to thank everyone who helped me on this thread. I really appreciate it. I ordered the used parts from ConEquip Parts (conequip.com). They were very helpful.
Glad to hear it worked out for you. It was looking grim for a while. I understand your reluctance to do the hose cleaning. It is a big task that's for sure. You should certainly plan on replacing the hydraulic filter within a fairly short time frame, say less than 50 hours. Can I suggest that you pick up an SOS testing kit from your local Cat dealer. For less than $50 IIRC it will contain everything you need to take an oil sample from the hydraulic system and also cover the cost of the analysis. What you should be particularly looking for is what's known as the ISO Cleanliness Code . An analysis inclusing that may be at a slightly higher cost. This will give an indication of the level of particles still remaining in the system. At that point whether any further action is required could be determined. At least it will not cost you a great deal of money to find out how much contamination is still remaining in the system. Kudos for coming back with the solution. A lot of folks don't.
glad i was able to point u in the direction of ur problem and txs for asking for an update on my issue. hopefully this thread can help others again