Y'all may remember my project from here . I've almost finished rebuilding a 299D2 after buying it as a burnout from a junqueyard. But I have not been able to figure out what's wrong with Aux 1 & 2 lines running down the arm. I have a grapple on the machine which just won't grapple. It uses the two smaller connections, Aux 1 & 2. It appears that Aux 1 is supposed to pressurize to open the jaws, and Aux 2 is supposed to pressurize to close, but I'm getting zero pressure in each, as evidenced by loosening the lines at the cylinders. So these Aux lines trace back to the implement control on the bulkhead and are controlled by two solenoids. I thought at first that maybe it just needs primed, but then, everything else run by the implement controller is working. (arms lift, tilt) So I put pins through the wires going to the solenoids and connected a multimeter. The solenoids are run by PWM (pulse-width modulation) so I set the meter to AC voltage. When pulling the right joystick thumbwheel I get 6vAC on Aux1, which doesn't seem like enough. When pushing the thumbwheel I get only microvolts on Aux2, effectively nothing. Using the prints to trace back the wiring it seems that Aux 1 & 2 signals come direct from the ECM! How can the ECM provide enough current? Well apparently it must. So I decided that this must be a calibration issue, as I remembered going through current calibrations for the lift and tilt. I ran ET, and the current min and max settings (which I'd downloaded in this serial#'s factory setting .xml file and loaded to the ECM) did not seem out of line. But I set max higher on Aux1 & 2 to 1.2 amps, a bit high, and min current higher to .8 amps. Still did not work the grapple. Then I set max on both to 1.5 amps and min to 1 amp, way high. Still no action. Well that blew my last theory out of the water. Has anyone seen this behavior before?
Post a pic of your wiring diagram. It sounds like you have no input signals.
Ok here's the complete schematic: https://quantum-equities.com/Schematic-299D2_XHP.pdf Vol 1 is the first two pages, and Vol 2 the second two. Here's my analysis of the A1 and A2 circuits: See, just about direct from the ECM to the solenoids. I thought maybe I'd gotten the solenoid connectors on the wrong solenoids, but the wire colors are right. The other wires on Connector 6 all have to do with control of lift and tilt which is working correctly, so that ought to be good. One thing I haven't thought to check yet is the thumbwheel circuit.
Hmm, there is a whole 'nother line of inquiry that I've missed -- the control circuit. Analysis: The roller power and return are just +8vDC, which is the power supplied to all sensors by the ECM, so no need to trace this out. Although I will test to make sure it's at the joystick. The thumb roller signal is another story. It claims to be PWM, but who's doing the PWMing? It could only be the ECM as this requires electronics. Unless there's a basic circuit in the handle? That would explain the need for power. So the prints and their cartoons only show this circuit going through Connector 15, which passes into the cab from the outside, toward the bottom. I know for derned sure that there's another connector in the right console, because it was the cause of another horrific problem I had a couple months ago. Highly suspicious. I'll crack it open and make it talk this evening.
Last night I did some careful testing. I started on the wiring from the joystick. I put pins through the yellow and white wires (+8vDC and return) and got screwy readings. Then I noticed that the wire colors from the joystick bear no relation to colors in the harness it connects to! Further, the wires in the harness it connects to actually have the circuit numbers printed on them so I could confirm that yellow, white, and green were the ones I was interested in, Putting pins through yellow and white, indeed 7.9vDC, just as God intended. Now, measuring green and white for AC I found 3.8v with the thumbswitch centered, and 4.3v whether the switch is pulled up OR down. Well this doesn't make sense for a PWM signal. The pulse width is supposed to vary to different degrees depending on how far the switch is pulled and in which direction. So I switched the meter to DC. Median reading is 3.6vDC. Pushing the switch up it goes to 1.48v and pulling it down results in 5.8v. Well this makes alot more sense than AC. The machine would know from this how to operate the grapple. I don't know why it behaves this way except maybe the PWM signal causes a 'heating' voltage (RMS) in DC that's sensible to read. Well it's a mystery why the joystick wires are so different from those it plugs in to which are confirmed correct. Could Cat have sold me the wrong joystick? The only part# on it is not a Cat number -- 221173. The real part# is 273-9104. It seems to be behaving correctly, although I don't know that my readings are actually correct. So I moved on to the implement controller. I put pins through the wires on the Aux1 solenoid, started the machine, and tried the thumbwheel. Zero volts AC centered, and about 34 millivolts up or down. Zero volts DC no matter what. Same on the wires for the Aux2 solenoid. So the control signals should be going directly to the ECM, and directly from the ECM to the solenoids. It's clear now why there's no hydraulic pressure... there's no solenoid voltage. They're obeying what they're told -- nothing. But why would this be? Could the joystick be the wrong one? Could the ECM be bad?
The local Cat dealer confirms that the tag on the joystick should be 221173, so it is the right one. So it looks like the ECM is bad,
I have ran into a similar problem. Except for that I couldn't get the high flow to work. Had to jumper two wires at the cannon plug near the auxiliary connector. Apparently all the new cat skidsteers have a harness on there attachments. And two of those wires tell the ecm that something is connected. Then the ecm turns on the auxiliary hydraulics. I will look to see if I can get you that information.
Scratch that. That is for the high flow circuit. You will have to hook up ET and turn on the auxiliary hydraulic function. Haven't done one in a while so I can't be much help in telling you more. Good luck and I hope that will get you on the right track.
Thanks Paul. I do have the high-flow jumper plug and have considered trying that. Right now just a blank cap is on it. I have connected ET, and the only settings I can find are Calibrate current (which I've tried), Override Aux Solenoids which won't accept any values, and Calibrate Aux solenoids which fails with "Not supported". (as opposed to most of the other calibrations, which I've done) I even did the traction solenoid calibration... I didn't bother with the instructions, and the machine took off like a rocket until I stopped it. Turns out you have to jack the machine off the ground for that! Are you saying that there's an ET setting to enable Aux? That would be a revelation, although I haven't seen it anywhere, and ostensibly I'm in Factory Mode. I'll look again tonight. Also I'll check the wire functions on the cannon plug. Maybe I need to jumper something just to get -any- aux.
Tracing all the cannon plug wires, here is my result: For those here who are not technical, it appears that there is no pin in the cannon plug to enable regular pressure. Only 'High' and 'Super-High'... although you do have to wonder if "High" is Cat's version of 'regular'. No idea what 'C1', 'C2', 'C+', or 'C-' are supposed to be... There is no explanation so we are supposed to pick it up by osmosis? Or telepathy? Maybe Aux 3 & 4? Aux 7 & 8? It is a mystery for the ages. Yes let's all use different terms in different places....
If I remember correctly. You will find where to enable auxiliary hydraulic in the implant section of ET. it's been too long for me to remember.
I would suggest you call CAT and have them hook up their ET to it. I have been doing this for 30+ years and even I have to do it sometimes. How much time do you have in this already trying to make a diagnosis?
Vetech63, the thing is I owe the local dealer $2,800 because we have a disagreement. I've spent $32,000 with them for parts to rebuild this machine, and because the SIS system is terrible there were a number of misordered parts. Abbreviated descriptions, non-pictured parts, not breaking out parts in an assembly, not being able to find many parts and so on. I've returned all the misordered parts and have receipts, but they refuse to refund because these are 'non-returnable' parts. Well I'm sorry but it's not my fault, it's SIS. They want me to pay $4,200 but I only actually owe $2,800, the difference being the returned parts. And if I make a partial payment to what they want, the penalty is the same as if I make no payment. So I am better off this way and we are at an impasse. They say no one else has $1,400 in returned parts. I pointed out that I am probably the first in the world to fully rebuild a Tier 4 299D2, which is quite a complex job and I've bought hundreds and hundreds of parts from them. Doesn't phase them. Too bad. Recently they said if I pay the $2,800 I say I owe, they would 'consider' goodwilling the rest. Well of course this was a ruse. They aren't going to 'goodwill' anything. I busted them on this by saying if we can sign an agreement that $2,800 is payment of my account in full, I will be down there tomorrow with the cash. No response for 2 weeks. And notice they don't admit that these are returned parts... it's as if I kept and used them or broke them but am refusing to pay, to be 'goodwilled'. And they've never admitted the problems with SIS, even though I invited the manager to witness the parts guy trying to find a dust cap for the Aux lines... after 20 minutes he gave up and said he'd have to research it later. These refusals to acknowledge clear truths, look like dishonesty to me, so we have to have things in writing. They are behaving like a car dealer, so I'll treat them like one. I've let them know that if they ding my credit it will be an automatic lawsuit (with Cat enjoined, since they're responsible for SIS) and we'll let a jury decide. I know that once a year dealers get to return parts to Cat for reimbursement, no questions asked. They initially volunteered this to me, but now they deny it. Please. This means that if they accept my offer they are out zero, and even if they don't return the disputed parts to Cat they'll still sell them eventually. Still in factory packaging. So it seems to me that it's only a question of their pride. Well, that's a shame. Anyway, the Cat dealer isn't in a mood to look at my machine. And with what I've learned and done I am probably more knowledgeable than most if not all of their techs, except on those common recurring issues. I do my day job(s) during the day and work on the Cat at night. Paul's posts above are beginning to make more sense. I originally downloaded my machine's ECM config.xml and loaded it into the ECM. This set my machine up as it was from the factory, specifically for my serial#. But maybe they ship with Aux -off-, so as not to ship with aux lines full of fluid. And maybe turning Aux on is one of those things they do at the dealer prep before delivery. So tonight I'll look everywhere for that setting.
Serial number would help
This is what happened to me. I was working on a 420 integrated tool carrier. Was told that the aux hydraulics never worked since it was new.i went through all the usual troubleshooting procedures and found that it was controlled through the ecm. I called my buddy at cat and he walked me through the steps on ET to turn that function on. Not all machines are configured the same way. And if the ecm doesn't know that it's set up for certain features then those are disabled until you tell it otherwise. That was 4-5 years ago. I wish that I could remember what the steps are to enable that function. The only thing I can remember for sure is that it was in the implement section. Good luck with that and good luck with your dealer.
DEMLONE70 serial# is DX200946. Went over the ECMs with a fine-toothed comb last night and can not find a setting to turn Aux on. To see a pic full-size you should be able to just click it. Or right-click|View Machine Config: Implement Config: Quick Coupling - I suspect this is the hydraulic implement locker, and I have electric so irrelevant. Valve calibration currents - Aux is set as high as I dare. There's an Aux Calibrate procedure, but it always fails as "not supported", on both valves. Here's what the readings look like when I actuate the thumb roller. Up: Centered: Down: It's starting to look like I'm pretty much screwed on this. I have a project that I have to get the machine on next week. Maybe I have to rig up a 3-way toggle switch to manually send voltage to the solenoids. In-line resistor to limit the current to 1 amp @ 12v. Ah, I'm not concerned about the dealer, especially if it's just a matter of their pride. I've told the parts guy about this problem and that I may need a warranty replacement ECM, and he's not responding. I also need a hydraulic filter (still cleaning out system gunk)... but there is more than one way to skin a Cat.
The tool config is set to one way A grappel need to be set two way
If that were the problem, wouldn't one side work? Neither does. But I'll try it tonight. Also I'm concerned about that " Auxiliary Valve #1 Port A Switch Position: Disabled or not installed ". Don't know whether that is a problem or not. Don't know what that could be.
I wish you would hurry the hell up and fix that dam thing! LOL
lol, you and me both. But I gotta day job, magn. Literally the last thing that doesn't work after the Aux lines is the A/C compressor. Its relay isn't getting the voltage to come on. Not a priority (yet). But I start a 5 house development next week and this Aux thing has become an emergency. In another thread I described replacing the backup camera.
No luck. Set High Flow to 2 direction, no change. Put the high flow jumper on the cannon connector, same problem. Although with the jumper I now get a relay clicking in the panel with the thumbwheel up. And a symbol lights up in the upper-right, though I don't know what it is. Click and symbol don't happen with thumbwheel down. It's got me buggered.
Pay CAT off and get ET. Not much choice.
He has et
From what I see on your et the ecm is receiving the input from the roller switch and is sending 1.5 amps out to the control solenoid. If you are not getting the 1.5 amps at the coil then you have a wiring problem. The only thing that doesn’t make sense about that is that the ecm should show an active fault for that. Try unplugging the wire at the solenoid while you activate the roller to see if it shows active fault for high voltage or open circuit.
Ok I'll try that Mobiltech. I suspicion that it's only parroting the calibration setting there and not actually measuring the current, as checking pins in the wires at both solenoids shows only microvolts. I was cautioned early-on by a Cat dealer tech to check the big connectors for stuck-out pins. I know exactly which pins are involved so will do that, and will put pins in the wires to check for voltage at the ECM when activating the thumbwheel. If nothing conclusive I have to build a rocker-switch to hot-wire the solenoids as I have to get this machine to work this week. The solenoids are driven by pulse-width modulation, which to an inductor like a solenoid, looks like variable voltage. I'm just going to make it on/off, two directions, 3-way switch. So 12v to the center of the switch, through a 12ohm resistor (Ohms Law: v/i=r). And a current of 1 amp is between the max and min currents set for these solenoids at the factory so that's why the resistor will be 12 ohms. Then up and down switch to the respective solenoids, and ground to the other solenoid pins.
HUH.?? Lol
X 2
WHY the hurry all of a sudden.?? u said it has to be done this week..
I should have had this machine onsite to start grading yesterday. Need to get it working one way or another. As to my hotwiring method: We know from the prints that these Aux solenoids are driven by PWM, aka 'pulse-width modulation'. The thumb-switch has a little circuit that sends PWM, and the ECM forwards PWM. This means that voltage is pulsed to the solenoids with an amplitude of 12vDC, but the length of the pulses is varied to give different 'felt' voltages to the solenoids, varying how much they open. Solenoids are just coils, iow inductors, and coils respond not to the amplitude, but to the 'heating value' of an applied signal. (RMS - root means square) Apply a pulse with an amplitude of 12v and duty-cycle of 50%, and the solenoid 'feels' 6vDC. Duty-cycle of 100% and it 'feels' 12v. What we also know from the prints is that these solenoids are rated at 14 watts. From calibration of the lift and tilt solenoids I know their correct Max current is normally around 1.1 amps. (again, @ 12vDC) So to get the watts of our Max current: 12v * 1.1a = 13.2 watts. Makes sense. Well something is screwed in the ECM and I have an emergency, so I have to hotwire it. I bought a rocker switch with 3 positions: up, middle, down. This will make a useful control for Aux1 & 2. First of all at the solenoids I connect the Return pins on the two solenoids (gray) to ground somewhere. Then in the cab I connect the center pin of the rocker switch to 12v somewhere. BUT I can't let more than 1 amp through to the solenoids, or I might burn them up. So in-line with that 12v I put a resistor (rated at 1 or 2 amps, since that's what they'll carry) which will limit the current flow. What resistance should this resistor be? Ohm's Law: voltage/current=resistance. 12v/1amp=12ohms. So somehow I have to find a 12 ohm resistor that can carry 1 or 2 amps, probably not easy. Anyway, on the switch I then connect the 'up' contact to one of the solenoids, and the 'down' contact to t'other. This way, when I press 'up' it will send 12vDC @ 1amp to the correct solenoid to close the grapple. And when I press the 'down' side it will open the grapple. I've completely bypassed the ECM which appears to be faulty. Sure it will BAM go down, and BAM go up since I'm sending only high current. And sure the ECM will fault because it's not able to measure the current going to these solenoids. But it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick...
Don't forget the resistance of the solenoids, you could start at 12 ohms, but that might not be enough power left for the solenoids, and you might have to go lower ohms taking the solenoid coil into account. Tough sometimes replying to something like this with somebody you don't know who could be a phd EE, or could be a phd EE and way off base anyway. Take it for what it's worth...
Further measurements last night. I tested the signal coming from the joystick thumbwheel (green), on the -outside- of the cab passthru connector and it is good. Varies the voltage from 1.766vDC switch down, to 3.85vDC center, to 5.92vDC up like it should. So it's getting through the passthrough. I even checked the wire at the ECM and it's good. So I disconnected the connector at the Aux1 solenoid, and it indeed threw a Diagnostic 2211-5. Put that back in and pulled Aux2's connector, and it threw a 2212-5. Correct and normal. I guess I'll have to live with these from now on. So I put a pin in the signal wire for Aux1 solenoid. With the thumbwheel centered I read .044vDC, and with it down I read 5.24vDC. Seems like this is half what it should be with the thumb all the way down. I'm comparing the signal (green) with its proper return (gray) here. Then I put a pin in the signal wire for Aux2 solenoid. With the thumbwheel centered I read .045vDC, and with it up I read 4.82vDC. Again it seems like this is half what it should be with the thumb all the way up, although given the factory calibrations for current on the two solenoids they do seem to differ correctly. Again I'm comparing the signal (yellow) with its proper return (gray) here. Now; here's the surprise. I disconnected the connector from the solenoid and measured the signal, comparing it with -frame- ground. Thumbwheel centered it read 7.88vDC, and down it went to 12.9vDC, and varied in between as I varied the thumbwheel. I got these -same- readings on both solenoids. This seems right, although I can't prove it. 7.88vDC might be for pilot pressure and 12.9vDC for full pressure.... although shouldn't full pressure be reserved for XHP mode? (I'd removed the jumper) So naturally I connected frame ground to the Return on both solenoids and tried them. Still dead. Then I tested for continuity from the solenoids' normal return to frame ground, and it read only about one ohm -- solenoid return is effectively connected to frame ground . The bad news is I do not know what to make of this. Aren't you glad you've read this far now? :j I am out of ideas and will just try my hotwire method to see if it will work. If that fails I'll just use the ******* forklift to move logs, and will have to rent a machine when I need a breaker.
Good observation Delmer. But coils rarely measure more than 1 or 2 ohms. They're just one long wire. For this reason coils offer almost no resistance to DC, although significant resistance to AC, called 'impedance'. There will be some impedance as PWM is effectively AC, but its fast rise and fall times minimize this. The key driver in this case is RMS, or 'heating' voltage. Not an EE, but I did get excellent electronics training in the USAF, before many of you were born.
To know the resistance of a resistor you use the colored bands: bad boys rape our young girls but violet gives willingly B B R O Y G B V G W 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 So I'm looking for a black,black,brown,red. After these a silver band means 5% precision and a gold band means 1%. The amperage is known by the physical size of the resistor.
So my switch idea didn't work. I even bypassed the resistor and no go. My only choice now is to forget the grapple and try to use the forklift.
Exactly why I hate burnouts...….the costs seem to never end.
Why not??? I think I'd be looking into that. Is this valve similar to the others, could you "hotwire" this valve from another function to verify valve function?
Delmer I don't know. When I put 12v directly to the solenoid I hear a -soft- click. Sure doesn't sound like the kind of click that's controlling this kind of power. Of course I can't hear this in testing while the engine's running. But the voltages going to them sure seem abnormal. Maybe I'll try to pull the two solenoids and verify that they're actuating. If so maybe the problem is actually in the implement control block? It was in the middle of the fire, but I'd disassembled and cleaned it. Maybe I missed something. I've got 98% of the problems fixed in this burnout because I'm careful and am a pretty good engineer. Only lack this, and the A/C compressor. But I am out of time. I need to get this machine to work.
"am a pretty good engineer" THATS putting it mildly.!!! Hellava job.!!
yeah, you've got a lot more patience than I've ever had. I try not to work too hard...
I removed the solenoids today and the block they mount to. No blockages, and they actuate like they should on a battery. I can't find what's wrong. Tomorrow I'll weld pipes on two attachments for the laser receiver, and then it's time to get the machine over there. Sickening that I can't grapple, use a breaker, or cold-plane the street.
Ok it's fixed. Should I make you wait for it? da de dum de da da... Ok, I am problem-exhausted with this machine and am overdue on site so I broke down and called service. But not Cat service... no-ho. There's a Case dealer about 40 miles away which needs the work and has a great mechanic, so he came out today. I explained all what I did, so the first thing he did was hot-wire the solenoids... no love. And I'd previously checked them out and they're working. They're new anyway. So the conclusion was what I've had a mental block about, the implement control block for the Aux lines. He removed the lines and unbolted the block. Got it off, removed the spool cover, and lo, the spool was seized! See, the way a hydraulic control block works is the small solenoid activates and allows pilot pressure into the end-cap of the spool, which is supposed to move the spool. The solenoid controls small fluid, which moves the spool which controls the big fluid. When he finally worked the spool out there was evidence of rust on it. It's mostly chromed, but in the valleys there was a rust stain, indicating that its sliding port had rusted. Somehow water got up that high in the junkyard, without affecting the lower spools for lift and tilt. He worked it and worked it, sprayed brake cleaner and lube and finally got it working freely. By The Mighty Hammer Of Thor I knew this was the answer. He put it back together and indeed I now have Aux. BUT I mentioned to him that yesterday the left final drive would hardly move. The machine had been sitting for about 3 weeks and suddenly the left final drive was having problems. I changed the hydraulic filter and it was clogged with little brass particles, which I thought was some kind of leak-stop that finally broke loose from somewhere. But he assured me that the pistons for the left final drive swashplate are grinding. Their cylinders have a brass sleeve. The final drive is shot. Why? Who knows. And if I continue to use the machine it will also take out both traction pumps AND the other final drive! What a DISASTER! What had suddenly caused this? The machine had sat unused for 3 weeks, but how could that cause this? I don't know. This is catastrophic news. I have two choices: Buy another final drive from the junkyard, like I did for the other side which was missing when I bought the machine; or take this final drive to be rebuilt at Hydraulic Repair. In either case I'm changing the oil. Not least is getting the damned 1,500lb track off to remove the final drive. Last time I had to rent an engine hoist and use the car to push them on.
Pure speculation: The final drive on the other side went bad, and this side was going bad, the owner did some figuring, the friction between the loan papers and the insurance papers caused a fire...
This is the kind of crap you run into on burnouts. I'm afraid there is more to come.
When I bought it at the junkyard the right final drive was missing and track was laying on the ground, like the junkyard had sold it. I don't dare drive it more than to position it for work as the brass particles could take out the other FD and both traction pumps. Junkyard wants $3k for one. Rebuild does too. The rotating unit which holds the pistons is $1,600 if I do the work myself and can get the part, although maybe something else in it is bad? Some very discouraging and daunting news.
Those travel motors often get neglected. I change or repair them often. I'd start with pulling the speed sensor. If you have a lot of metal on it, there's something going on inside. 2nd thing I'd do is pull the flushing valve spool. I often see the end washers on the spool hammer apart and jam up the spool. Once in a while I'll see a seized up brake pack but its rare.
I just have to say that I admire your tenacity. I pray that it pays off and that you will be rewarded for the time lost. And maybe some hair to grow back after all the head scratching and pulling you have done.
I feel this is appropriate at this point.
Will do. Where is the flushing valve spool? Must be in the pump, maybe opposite the solenoid? The Case tech said that the swash-plate pistons' brass cylinder sleeves are getting destroyed, but it doesn't sound like you agree? The motors have wet-clutch-type brakes, but they're supposed to release (pilot pressure?) when I take it out of Park. And when trying to move the machine, the left tries to start but then halts, and when I let off it jumps and judders. I'm not confident that I'd used the right hydraulic oil for this kind of brake, but then the brake shouldn't be involved in movement. Yesterday I repositioned the machine so I can use the car to help with the (1,600lb) track, and now the right side would hardly move. The right final drive seems to be getting affected now, like the Case tech said. He said in cases like this they just send in both final drives and the pumps in for rebuild. (Good god) And I raised the lift-arms to get them out of the way and they were slow, which is a bad sign for the implement pump. I did get the track off, and what a helluva job that is with my bottle jack, my meager tools, and the car and chain. Got almost all the bolts out of the sprocket too. Next I'll check the speed sensor and I am confident I'll find brass. For the others, each of the traction motors has their own swash-plate pump up at the engine. To me it's amazing that swash-plate motors and pumps actually work, but they do, and Cat uses them everywhere. The middle swash-plate pump is for lift-arms and implement tilt. (The front gear-pump is pilot pressure) The question is whether the brass particles have damaged the cylinder liners of the other motor and pumps, or if the particles are just inhibiting operation somehow. This is the second-worst thing that can happen to this machine. Eight months of preparing this thing for the property... Another question is why did this happen to the left motor? The Case tech thought this happened because I didn't bleed the air, but I believe traction is an 'open' (not a 'closed') system because the final drives had no trouble priming, unlike the arms and tilt which are 'closed'. He said air is like "sandpaper", but I think he means that the lack of oil is, but this shouldn't have had a damaging lack of oil. I should mention that the left motor has always been a slight bit balkier than the right. One of them required more solenoid current after calibration, and it may have been the left. It was running like a top so what caused this? Could it be the ****** O'Reilly hydraulic oil? Lack of some additive? Crud from the burnout, even with all new hoses & tank? Heat from the burnout? (didn't look like it) My running it at second-speed alot? Well in any case no more O'Reilly oil, and no more second speed. I've decided to have it rebuilt by a company recommended by the Case tech , even though they won't give me an estimate. He says it could cost up to $3k, depending. I doubt they have a swap-out program, but I can always hope. Getting parts alone will take a week at best to arrive. Who knows what their dwell time is to work on it. Better than risking a junkyard part a year older than my machine. I now have less than a month to get 14 trees down and wet street utilities in. While I'm waiting for that I guess I'll remove the right motor and open it up to try and see if it's just plugged up. Another frickin' track to remove/replace. When I get both motors back on and change the oil, maybe I'll find find three of the four pumps sick because, you know, 'Life Is For Suffering'. (my motto) And thank you for the well wishes Paul and Vtech63.
Flushing spool is behind the thick plugs on the drive motor itself. There'll be 2 opposite each other. There should be the 2 plugs, a spring behind each plug, a washer on each side of the spool and then the spool itself. I agree, brass wouldn't be from the brakes or the flushing spool. Motor or pump. I haven't got a hydraulic schematic with me to reference but that brass could be coming from anything since I seem to recall oil goes through the hydraulic filter first, then the fan, then off to the rest of the system. Hydraulic oil wise, we put CAT TDT0 0W-20 in our skid steers because we experience +40 to -40 temps so it covers our entire operating environment year round.
Ok, got it. I couldn't live with myself if I don't actually see what's wrong with the left motor so I plan to remove it and crack it open tomorrow. I'll try to find a disassembly procedure in SIS. Yes I'd understood that one of the first places oil goes is through the filter, as it should be. When I changed the filter a couple days ago it was riddled with brass flakes. I thought that at some point someone had put in some kind of leak-stop which just now broke loose, but the Case tech disabused me of that notion. The Cat parts guy recommended AW36 oil (equivalent to SAE10) so that's what I used. This time it'll be NAPA AW46. (SAE20) Here's the hydraulic schematic:
I am happy to report that the Case tech was wrong. Today I finished removal of the left final drive, and when I got the hoses out of the way the first thing I checked was the speed sensor. Hmm, not a single brass flake, just some dirty oil. That's awfully queer... I pulled the motor and found that it is too heavy for me to lift so I used a two-wheeler to get it to the garage. Cleaned everything off, and removed what I thought are the plugs described by 92U, one on each side and one side has a spring. (though no washers) But whatever is inside would not push out. I'm afraid that the flush spool is actually behind the two plugs below the ones I removed, and I stripped out the allen socket of one of those. C'mon Cat, not grade 8?! Then I removed all the allen screws holding the shells together. I was afraid. I didn't want to do it. But with trepidation gently I worked it apart and, YEEEEKKS, the swash-plate assembly came apart naked right there in front of my eyes! Well,,, there is not a single flake of brass anywhere! And the rotating assembly which has the bores for the pistons does not have brass sleeves, it is siliconized iron like a Corvette engine, something I'd expect of Cat. The swash plate has a few scratches on it, probably from remnants of the fire or sand from my wet-blasting the frame, but it looks just fine. So do the roller bearings below. Everything looks like I'd expect a two-year-old machine to look like. I did my best to put the pistons back in the same bores they came out of, but then there was the puzzle of how to put the fool thing back together. When I tipped up the rotating assembly to insert it, all the pistons fell out. I finally noticed that the swash-plate is biased to one side of the can, so I tilted the can 45* with the swash-plate down, and was able to insert the other shell without the pistons falling out. I shook it and snugged it and shook it. But there is always that last few millimeters that it won't close. I don't think the race is hung on the roller bearings as it's wider than my gap. But I'm afraid to hammer it or force it. So something -besides- the swash-plate mechanism is at fault here. The brake must be on the hydraulic side (as opposed to the planetary gear side) since it's controlled by its own hydraulic hose, so I doubt that's at fault. Where could those brass shavings have come from? A pump? Are there some now on the new filter? I'll have to check. But meanwhile, it looks like I've saved myself $3,000.
Yep the flushing spool is in behind the ones below the plug you took out. Usually if you put a large round punch on the face of the plug and give it a few hard smacks with a hammer they loosen right up. Might be able to hammer a Torx bit into the stripped hole and get lucky. That spool is available in a kit with new plugs just in case anyone's wondering. I've never had the motors or pumps apart so I can only guess where the brass came from unfortunately. I'd say 7/10 times that flushing spool is at fault when it comes to sticky drive motors. There are also a pair of crossover reliefs in each hydrostatic pump that I've seen stick. But that usually just causes the motor to lag for a second or 2 before it re-seats and then the machine drives straight.
There were enough brass shavings in the filter to cover about 50% of the area. And it'd been in since I first started the machine. I'll get a picture of it tomorrow. I really hope you're right about the spool. Oh that would be good news. Does the spool get clogged by crud, or must it be replaced? What's the issue with it? Do you think the scratches in the swash-plate are a concern? Maybe they're in fact the source of the flakes.
I didn't show it in a picture yesterday, but the feet on the swash-plate cylinders are brass. It seems reasonable to me that the swash plate must not have any irregularities due to the pressure that it's under, and those scratches could well be the cause of my brass flakes. The cylinder feet may used to have 4 minor bumps that now appear mostly worn down, but I can't be sure. This would all account for the juddering I had. Today I'm going to try and get the flush spool out, and if peculiar I'll put its kit and a swash plate on overnight order. I'll try a vice-grips first on that allen plug. The oil is very slippery which is good, but I'm still replacing it with AW46. Looks like I need 'V' group and 'U' group.
http://www.insanehydraulics.com/index.html this is a great resource if you're going to be tearing into hydraulic pumps/motors.
Thanks Delmer. Hopefully this is the last I'll ever need to mess with hydraulics though... if there is a God. I'm supposed to be a developer. Ok here are the spools from the final drive. I've left the image full-sized so you can click and examine: Clearly the flush spool on the right has scrubbing wear. And its washers have been hit hard. This is my interpretation of what 92U described as the causitive damage to these. Doesn't seem too bad, but I'm ordering the kit anyway. (487-6244) And the swash plate kit. (487-6227) And a filter. (which only Cat seems to have)(421-5479)
Did the spools slide freely in the bores? Or did they hang up at all? If they still slid ok that may not have been the issue. I'd say you caught that flushing valve spool just in time. Usually when I get to look at them those washers are in about 40 pieces each.
The flushing spool hung up at first. Once I got past that it came out freely. I've ordered the swash plate kit and it'll be at the dealer tomorrow morning. (51 miles away) For the parts I don't replace, I'll flush the ports with spray brake fluid, then oil, and make sure they're free. Also today I bought 10 gallons of AW46. On the flushing valve kit, SURPRISE, there's a replacement part number. Apparently they're recognized the problem. But, Cat dealers and Cat are out of stock nationwide. They're supposed to get more in July, but obviously I can't wait that long. So I'm going to use the old flushing spool, and I've bought two metric washers that are grade 8 steel. The ID is fine but OD is too large, so I'm going to put them in a bolt and nut, mount them in the drill press, and grind down the diameter to the same as the original. I am hoping after hope that grade 8 doesn't also mean brittle... I have no other choice. Supposed to rain tomorrow but I'll get done what I can.
Not sure about the July wait I just checked through SIS and my local dealer and this is what I'm seeing:
Good to know there's an updated number. Hopefully it'll last a little bit longer. Thanks!
Progress the past couple days. I am confident that I'm on the right track with the swash plate as the old one has a deep scratch in it, with a proud ridge. I'm sure that with the brass feet of the cylinders turning that would shave off brass flakes. You can see how the foot was even turning while scratching here: The swash plate pivots on two ball bearings, and is loaded by a 3/4" pin that's spring-loaded. I got those parts with the new swash plate, and the new spring was two concentric ones and quite a bit stronger than the old spring. BUT the new springs were also longer! So long that the pin would not start in its hole and caught on the edge. There is no way to put the upper shell on, and get at that pin to line it up with its hole. Figuring that Cat techs wouldn't put up with this, I just reused the old spring which allowed the pin to start. I got the new swash plate installed but the top shell still would not close down that final gap. I finally figured out that the problem was that double-seal down around the spline shaft, beyond the roller bearings. With some slippery compressor oil on the shell's shaft, and a little assertive pressure, it *splink* slid satisfyingly down. But in the process of trying to figure out how to get the thing together I took off the end-cap on the hydraulic end. I eaased out the jesus-clip, and *SPRONNG* the end cap popped off. (*Sproinng* 'Jesus, where did it go?') Turns out there's a giant triple spring pressing on the cap (three springs inside one another, concentrically). Man, how will I ever get that back together? Even my whole weight isn't enough to compress that spring. Turns out a couple 1,000lb Home Depot clamps and a socket. Notice the bend in the angle-iron? I eaased the jesus-clip back in and bob's your uncle. I'll return the clamps for a refund since they've banned me for life from no-receipt refunds. Contractors do alot of volume, and I guess having bought tens of $thousands from them isn't important in their calculation. So I 'borrow' tools from them now. THANK you Home Depot! Managed to struggle the final drive back out to the machine and manhandle it back into place. Got the speed sensor in and hoses connected, and sprocket on. Now just need to get the track on. Need to rent a 'tip-tow' (towable engine hoist) to get that 1,600lb track on, with the help of the car. Also yesterday I drained the hydraulic oil, and boy was it foul. Black dirty and lots of particles and brass flakes. I knew it would be and intended to change it about now (24 hours on the machine), but apparently I've waited too long given the damage to the final drive, and who knows what else. I knew that most of the particles will have settled since the machine has sat for a week or so so I stirred up the tank before I began draining. Then I reversed the shop-vac and blew into the fill port to force the oil out faster and cause disruption. Got all kinds of crap out, and let it drain overnight now. Today I'll pour in some clean oil to help rinse and do a final blow. I guess this final drive problem was my fault for waiting too long to change the oil. But now it's getting done and about 50% of it will be new. Hopefully the majority of the particles were in the tank.
I'm thinking you could write children's stories.
Scary childrens' stories? Stories that make them age 10 years?
Yeah, I was afraid to but finally tried it. Hardly better than it was. But I'm pretty sure I've fixed the brass shavings. Lift arms and tilt are fine, and the right side is fine, but the left side is still hardly moving. About all that's left to cause this is the left traction pump. Although in reverse, it seems to move almost normal. This implies that its pump might actually be Ok. Could this be a hanging spool in the pump? Surely there is a spool, to amplify the action of the solenoid, although I know nothing about the anatomy of the pumps. I think that if it is a pump problem it's almost beyond me. $1,000 for a half-day on the Aux lines will look like a bargain compared to them working on the pumps.
THIS is why I stay away from burnouts...……...the problems never end before you spend $100K.
Not really. It's easy to retreat to this attitude, especially if you half-ass things. If you do the rebuild right like I did... and change the oil after it has a chance to wash through the system, like at 5-10 hours, it can pay off. I waited 24 hours and that was deadly.
I think we would all like to know how many hours you have into this thing. Times a mechanic's billable rate.
I think it's commendable that he did what others said couldn't be done. He went into this knowing it would be cheaper to buy a complete machine but didn't want to spend that much. He would rather invest his time into a project than his money.
Guess that would depend on how much one values their time. If the other use of ones time is sitting in a chair watching reruns on TV while drinking beer the hours might not matter. (not that the drinking beer is a bad thing!) Now if the time spent is taking one away from another job that would be bringing in $25 to $75 dollars an hour that would be a different story. Or if the machine is needed for a project that will bring in lots of money that also is a different story. I know for a fact that many times if I figured in the hours I worked on something at even $20 per hour I would have been financially money ahead to toss that chain saw, snow blower or whatever in the scrap bin. But sometimes the satisfaction of taking someone else's cast off and getting it to work again is worth more than the loss of "profit"! In the last 50 years I bought one new walk behind lawn mower. But I've sold or just plain given away four or five good running mowers! Now if I could just find a good solid mower deck for the almost perfect motor I have I would be happy!
Correct Peej. Others should have a little respect and not try to judge how wise my decisions are, especially in the context of my life, not yours. pfff You can just leave that to me. Six months' full-time. You multiply it out. But this conclusion will be bogus given a) that I am not a mechanic, I'm a real estate developer, b) I decided that during this period this is the best use of my time, and c) apparently I'm breaking new ground, and making these things possible for others. You don't realize Birken Vogt that we have a monsoon season here, that I was waiting for my permits, matters with my finances, and other considerations. Is that Okay with you? Now if you're not here to advise with what actually matters to most of us, please feel free to **** off.
I find the fact you that rebuilt this thing very interesting to follow, you've done a ton of trouble shooting , problem solving, and explained a lot of it. Not sure why you would get so pissed off by a genuine question though. I don't think he means any disrespect, it's a legit question, isn't it? I've wondered the same as I'm sure many others have as well, its obviously worth YOUR time to do a rebuild like this, why let a question get you all riled up.
Because I have a major god damned problem which is stopping me from the real mission: doing a 5 house development. I have many pressures which apparently some of you can not understand. And at least amongst gentlemen, it is disrespectful to question another's decisions, especially stupidly when one does not have the facts. Life is hard. I am not interested in making it harder. If someone is so rude and disrespectful as to impinge on my prerogatives, I will smack them. The only thing that some understand is force. If we are to stick with 'science' and not 'politics', I have to solve this problem, because it should be implicit that I have to move forward. Many other things are going on which I have not troubled you with here. But what I have been consistent with is sharing information ... and asking for expertise from those who may actually know and are willing to share it. I am trying to be civilized here, as I understand the term. Or, have I been wasting my time and effort here?
Good evening quantum Like I said before I admire your tenacity in this project. And I fully understand and respect the reasoning behind this. I say this so that you won't blow a gasket and kill over from high blood pressure. Keep up the good work and ignore any questioning of your motives. You don't need to justify anything to anyone. If you are good with it then that is all that matters. To be honest I have wondered why you have put so much time and effort into this project and wanted to ask you about it. But I truly do understand the why, so I don't ask. You are a true renaissance man and the world would benefit greatly if more people would take the initiative you have. Keep on keeping on and I am looking forward for your success in this.
Respectfully, I think you may have burnt those bridges the last time people tried to assist you here. Sometimes, a little humility can go a long way. Best of luck with your drive issues.
Having received a number of complaints about Quantum on several occasions, warning him about his treatment of other members here and observing this latest exchange we've made the decision to bring it to an unfortunate end. We appreciate the ingenuity and ambition displayed but the short temper and foul language and treatment is not welcome. Our apologies to the rest of the membership, but these policies are what have made HEF the place it's come to be.