There are 3 very important things to know, to be an operator. How many know what they are? If a person lacks anyone of them, they are not an operator.
Is this a trick question?
I'm guessing that one of them has something to do with high tracks being bad....am I right? Brian
1) Hot is on the left 2) Cold is on the right 3) Payday is on Friday Wait, that's the plumber's exam... :beatsme I've never been mistaken for an operator anyway
And I was going to say starting time,lunch time and quitting time. Can't wait to find out what it is.I know,I know,if I was an operator I would know,right?Ron G
Forward, reverse, up and down. Or is that 4 things?
Wear hearing protection, be very careful getting on and off, run smooth and steady.
1 You have to know how to run the machine. Meaning you need to know what all the levers do, how to make it move and function go forward and backwards turning, implement and GET use etc. 2 You have to know how to work the machine. Meaning how to make it work and load it etc. Like if its a dozer how to keep that blade busy doing its job with a load of what ever, or doing what ever is required at the time. And extracting the horse power in a usefull way not wasting a bunch of time etc. 3 You have to know the show. Meaning after the machine is off loaded from the lowboy, and sitting there you know how to attack the job, and what to do. How to strip, cutnfill, grade, bench, slope, or how to go about doing the clearing etc. With out those 3 things an operator is not.
Sure whatever I think all you need to be is smarter then the dirt and you will be a ok.
lol
It helps if your smarter than water too.
OK.....who told him the secret...... :laugh
Getting back to seriously addressing this... I agree, sort of. I've often said that you could teach a monkey to actually run the machine--the manipulation of the controls to produce movement is the easy part. Number two, I agree with 100%. I've expressed it this way--Once you've mastered knowing how the machine acts (your number one), you have to learn how the dirt acts. It all about how the cutting edge meets the material, and where it goes from there. The third one, is important, and I see your point. I had a person one time make the distinction between somebody who could run a machine , and an "operator". There are guys who know the first two, but the only way they get by is with somebody else telling them how to do the third part.
#4 Utilizing the machine without beating the crap out of it. Example: Not running over rocks, not spinning the tracks and coming to a complete stop before reversing directions.
How about using your berms, I've seen guys skip all over the cut not knowing to stay in the same pass until the berms ger 4ft high to hold the material in. You can spot a real dozer hand by his berms. DP
That fits into the #2 deal. What that is, is someone that wants to make it look cute instead of doing the job, or like you say just does't know how to do it. And some of it is a stupid boss wanting it to look cute too. As the saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat, and if your not doing it the way the boss does it or thinks it is supposed to be done then your the idiot. Any time Ive been dozing I keep saying to myself, just leave, and come back and critique it after I'm finished. With dirt work and clearing, the time to make it pretty is when your done. Making it pretty as you are attempting the job, is a waste of fuel and time. What PO's me is I've come on a job and others are just piddling and after watchine me, then they start doing the job, I don't like training others like that. The one I liked the best is a guy I called high gear, he had to be in top gears all the time. And of course not pushing a big load, he looked like he was getting something done fast. Maybe wearing out the tracks faster.
Dozer575. for the first time i totally agree with you, as a business owner and a foreman at times for a different company, I have seen all to much of that revovling door syndrome on big jobsites. Hire a guy that says he knows what he is doin, and ending up having to train him all over again. One guy once told him he run cat for 5 years. I hired him, got him on site. Asked him if he ever run a D8H before... He said "Man I was pretty much born on one, So i said well go get #3 warmed up. I was in the job trailer doin some paper work and about 20 mins later he comes in and says "the damn thing won't start" Puzzled i walked over to it and checked it out. I asked if he knew where the master switch was, The damn moroun didn't have the master on because he couldn't find it.............. He still pulls a sheepfoot for us in the summertimes hahaha. Nothing PO's me more thow than guys that are told to do one thing, start doin it, then 10 minutes later they are off doin something else. Or having to constantly show guys what to do, when thier common sense should just kick in without me having to get on the radio, or drive over and tell them. I love it when I have a smaller jobsite, 10 or less machines and we have all our best operators that know how make things work. Like a well oiled machine..... quite often then we can get another machine lowbedded in so i can run something too, rather than baby sitting all day.
Reminds me of something I did about 7 years ago. I get called out to run a excavator for a contractor. Once I arrive on the job, I find the foreman and give him my clearance. He asks if I know how to run an excavator? Wanting to make a good first impression, I look him in the eye and say, " you mean one of those scoopy things?" :beatsme His jaw drooped to the ground. :falldownlaugh 7 years later, I'm still working for the same company. :cool2
thats great
And # 5 would be an offshoot of Murphy's Law---Don't ''step'' in anything soft---usually not a good thing.
What happens if you're older than dirt?
1: A grease gun 2: Tools 3: Common Sense! Cause if you don't know how things work You cannot make it work.
Since it is my nature to be this way, I just have to do it. Sorry ahead of time. So Noose that means you fully understand digital logic? You fully understand microprocessors? You very fluent in Assembly and C++? You know ASCII real well, as well as HEX? If you answer no to any of the above, then I can't see how in the heck you can use that computer to visit this site. Also I'm sure you are well versed in OBD2, and pulse width modulation. As well as everything I have mentioned above. If not I can't see how the heck you can drive a newer car. And besides if you see someone under the age of 33 running a machine that is proof no common sense is needed. LOL And for sure you can operate without the other 2 items, especially if you belong to a union. You'd get kicked off the job taking someone elses job.
:beatsme .....and things were going so smoothly.....
Hey Dozer575, I am way younger than 33, and I could probably operate you under the table! aren't you just a part time operator? Just because your older, doesn't make you a better operator. Actually I have found quite often that the older operators are stuck in thier ways and won't listen to anybody, and in a business owners point of view is not a good operator. I like the younger guys that will actually SHOVEL thier tracks at the end of the day in the winter time, grease thier machines regularly and so forth. Because they are glad to be there, and enjoy learning new things, unlike all those antique operators we have that don't shovel thier tracks, don;t grease anything, and are not willing to listen to what myself or the other younger foreman we have tell them to do. I have seen many young operators as young as 18 very good at what they do. they might not have seen it all, or been there and done it all. But give them a chance to try it, and they usually adapt to the conditions without much wasted time. Our main trimmer man is a 21 year old fella, the biggest cat he has ever run is a D5, but he can carry a grade just as good as any other operator I have seen.
OK, I see this one going in the toilet real fast, let's stay on the thread topic please. If there is nothing positive to add, please don't bother.
Well said CatSkinner77V I may not have seen it all or done it all but I’m more than willing to learn anything in than machine business and adapt to changes as needed, and I’m not afraid to grease a machine and I will shovel out the tracks 2 times a day in the winter and even sweep them at the end of the day when just running in dry dirt. Show me what you want, tell me want you want , and give me a chance have always been my motto. The company I work for now is the same. They are willing to give you a chance to learn. I wish I had more time to go to school to learn more of this stuff. I understand working on a bench, but running grade and slope is a different story. I can make the machines work and follow a natural grade or slope but when it comes to the numbers and all that jazz I have not been around it. Im willing to listen to the old timers and even the new guys, it don’t cost you anything to listen and only a bit of time to learn.
I'm man enough to admit that I have little knowledge on most of the stuff you listed. Instead of jumping on the "you don't know jack" bandwagon, why don't you share some of your knowledge. It is easier for you to FLAUNT your knowledge than it is to TEACH it, isn't it? After all, being able to teach would be a good sign of an operator. I, for one, would be more than happy to listen to your knowings of these systems. Everybody is here to teach what they know and learn what they don't know. Why must you come in here and ruin that with this childishness? It doen't matter to me whether YOU cause your thread to be locked or not but I think you can still make good of it with some positive comments . I think you ought to be typing some explainations of that stuff you listed or I don't see a reason for this thread to stay open. And since this is my nature: Agenda..... yeah , I have one. You can either teach me the basics about this stuff which will prove that you know about these systems OR you can put aside my request and show everyone here that you're just a greenhorn that "knows some big words". Its a WIN/WIN for me either way. I either learn something or you are put in your place. I hope to learn something but I will be equally satified with the latter........ The ball is in your court and the answer is in BOLD . You have my complete attention!
I know I shouldn't have mentioned that in that way. But I have noticed most in that age group but NOT ALL seem to lack common sense. I have kids in that age group, sooo.. I have felt that the reason they don't want us baby boomers to retire is because there is no one to replace us. Especially in the skills jobs. Yes yes there are some of YOU that are cool and know what you are doing, so I should have elaborated more and not put anyone that does this sorta work into at catagory. I did add the LOL to it as laughingly. It was more joking that being real serious. And to add to it I have known some really sharp younger folks and some really good younger operators, but the ones that are into these and other skilled fields are the ones I was refering to. And unlike alot of you guys, I got a late start in operating, like around age 28 or so, and the guy I trained with was 22, he was really good, but I learned the most from the 48 year old owner of the company. He could do as much work clearing with a 350 case as most could do with something much larger, big stumps to boot. I wasn't doing no agenda. I just had to show the absurdity of the statements of that post. Operate under the table? It depends on what machine we are on, if it is 2 nice old D8's out raking,clearing and stumping, and 50 to 60 degree slopes I highly doubt it. I'd need a few hours to get back into the groove its been about 2 years now.
Dozer575. I have knocked back about a 26 of whiskey tonite, and it might just be booze talking, but i think your a RUBBERHEAD. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in your posts. Next time before your unsteady hands start typing something into your keyboard, may I suggest you think about hwat you are saying!!!???? Don't be bashing us younger folks in the construction business, myself being only 25 years and having quit school when i was 12.. started stripping with a D8H in a gravel pit for my uncle.... its all i have known for half of the time I have been on this earth, and you cannot be telling me I don't have any COMMONSENSE . If I am just a young buck with no commonsense, then why I am a foreman for the family business and own about a dozen of my own machines along with it??? can you answer me that.?! And as for all the other younger guys in the business, well they are all very good at what they do, because if they were no good at it they would still be labourer's....... just not working for us at all. And yes I think I could very well operate you under the table, If you are as good with a blade as you say you are, why aren't you still doin it? or even have your own outfit? I wish that good old Aussie Deas Plante was here to put you in your place, he was always good at doin that! hahaha
Pineapple upside down cake anybody???
Your lack of response to my questions only leads me to believe that you know nothing about what you say. You didn't even acknowledge my questions. Maybe you didn't understand them......I think I made them clear enough...... I want to know what this statement means since your gonna play all "high and mighty". Why don't you point out who is NOT cool and DOESN'T know what they are doing. Go ahead and make a list cause I don't think its going to go over very well. You don't know how well anybody here operates equipment because you have never seen any of us operate. How are you to make assumptions like that without knowing anyone? YOU CAN'T!!! Where do you get off thinking you get to come in here and start categorizing people. The ONLY thing you can assume is that everybody in here is an excellent operator which leads me to my next question......Why are you here? You need to ask yourself this because I don't think you are here for the same reasons that we are........
sheesh, only three things? well the top three would have to be: -understand that you have to respect equipment, even if the previous operators and mechanics haven't respected it. -lubrication:where is the oil dipstick/how to use a greasegun -how to communicate with the boss, mainly how to listen to what is expected of you. oh and Catskinner, I'm 5 years younger than you, I've been in the field since I was 15 and I've probably seen almost a hundred operators, worked for the top-shelf outfits (Nelson River Construction and Peter Kiewit Sons), I've seen both old guys and young guys that suck at running any piece of equipment... but I have to say... The top 5 best operators I have ever seen are all really old guys, and they clean their own tracks. I have so much respect for them, I'll clean my tracks and then clean their tracks (In the winter with an airspade!) while they watch, smoking my cigarettes! I hope that when I'm 40, I'll be at least twice the operator I am today, how about you, man?
I am cooler than the other side of the pillow. You said that you learned alot from the 48 yr old owner. That is because he is experienced. Just wait until us youngbucks are in our 40's. You learn something new everyday in this business. That is one of the great things about it.
catskinner, just wondering... do you work for E.F. Moon by any chance? if not, i would like to know who you work for. you already know who i work for... http://www.nelsonriver.com/ http://www.kiewit.com/ it's 3:30AM out here on the sea to sky highway, I'm gonna go run down to the jobsite to check on a 6" trash Pump. I MISS MANITOBA!!!! I MISS CLAY, it's nothing but rocks and sand here.
I have about 10 hours in a dozer so I'm far from a dozer operator but I can push dirt and clean my own tracks so hopefully that counts lol My trick is to learn off other operators around me,some have good and bad habbits but the ability to watch and observe is the best training anyone can do.I'm 24 next month and told myself the day I first got in the seat my goal was to learn something new everyday. A bit off topic err well if this thread has kept on topic lol,but I'm jealous of you 928G Boy working on that job lots or gear to toy around with on that site I bet and a nice pay check to boot
Some guys are getting nice paycheques... Not me. I used to make about the same money in Manitoba as a pipelayer. The only iron i've been on so far out here has been a 420DIT backhoe and a 930G loader... My job is "field engineer" I'm supposed to be in an office entering quantities into a computer and all that BS but they know that if I don't get some seat time in equipment I'll get pretty bored quickly and run back home. I'm only supposed to be out here for another 6 weeks but I don't think I'll last that long. I'm not cut out for office work. My office of choice is either the cab of a 345 or a trenchbox. there are some nice toys here though... a couple 365C hoes, a 385C, a ton of 345s and john deere 450s, a D9R, a D8T... well, those are the highlights I guess. Oh, and a 988F loader and an endless supply of 980Hs.
I love pineapple upside down cake!:thumbsup Oh, ahh you guys clean your tracks?
hehehe... when you're workin' in mud like this... YOU BETTER CLEAN YER FRIGGEN TRACKS!!!
Nice pics!:thumbsup I was just being a smart aleck.:stirthepot
I figured you were being a smart aleck but i needed an excuse to post the pics!
when it comes to machines or jobs i use these three rules 1 make it work 2 do the best you can 3 git it done
Thats my excuse I hardly use anything but an excavator or backhoe now I just learned to do as much as I can with the hoes and ran with it. I did like my Deere 650J though
I'm with Lashlander but can I have a glass of milk with mine? BTW operator 3 things 1 how to get on and start it 2 Figure out what lever does what 3 shut it down and get off Shoot this was easier than I thought it would be, hey guys does this make me an OPERATOR? Oh well guess not yet huh? maybe on the next test
Just wanted to add to my post, that I am out of my place in the dirt, but in the scrap busses like I am I know all 3. But like I said if someone is willing to tell me, teach me and show me I’m more than willing to listen and learn. We have a few people who get in the machines and are nothing but stick pushers. I try and teach them but if they don’t want to learn I’m not going to waste my time on them. I give them something I know they can do or handle and just add there work to my list so they don’t hurt them self ‘s someone else or the machine.
Yes!! Congratulations! You move to the head of the class young man! No need of another test You are now a "certified excellent operator" :thumbsup Now go make yourself some real money
3 things to know to operate 1. Coffee Machine 2. Work Machine 3. Good Woman...(still workin on that one)
dang it boys! i'm an old fart now but i surely remember being a laborer on a road job here in iowa when i was 16 and the foreman telling me to grab A SPADE AND clean the tracks on the 9 pushcat and being proud to do it! even tho my dad was the operator and was setting in the seat laughing because i had too clean his tracks lol! man i would like to do it all over again! just to see the old man again! if i could run a dozer half as well as he could i'd be a proud man! thanks guy's for jaring my memory a little!
I'll be needing my papers to prove this so I is gonna print your reply and carry it to the local grading Co. And git me a real job and throw away all dem ranches in my box so I'll have room fer my new hard hat.
3 rules 1. Start Early 2. Work through lunch if you have to 3. Don't be late at quitting time!
No one post yet on learning to run a dozer by the feel from your seat? Thats the first thing I was taught.
Thats covered by item 1 and 2, but you still need to know what to do on the job, and your seat won't tell you that.
I am a newb, did you guys go to school to become an operator or did you just learn from somebody else?
I rode for hours with a good operator. And spent years and years learning while operating. Operating is a skill based deal. Only way you learn is by doing it. And also having it in your blood so to say. Like Meogi says "learn by book", nope, have to do it to learn how to operate.
What Makes A Good Operator. Hi, Folks. Please forgive me? I have been sand-bagging on this one a bit to see where it went. It has had some interesting convolutions. (Nohpe. I dunno wut itt meens. I jess sore itt an lyk'd ther loook uv it sew thort eye'd torss itt inn.) As I have stated before, the art of moving earth is in being able to set the blade/cutting edge to take the material from where you want to take to it to where you want to put it in the condition that it needs to be in the least possible number of passes. This involves knowing your machine(s), your material(s), your method(s) and the required end result. In knowing your machine, you need to know it capabilities, its limitations, how to maintain it and, most importantly, how to get its full capacity out of it without beating it to death. You also need to understand how the machine works or, to put it another way, you need to be able to 'think' the machine.This involves doing the thinking for the machine 'cos very few of them have the intelligence to do that theyselfs - - - - YET. Materials: as some of you may - or may not - have noticed, different materials behave in different ways. The simple fact that one operator may not know how to handle one particular type of material does not necessarily make him/her a bad operator. It simply means that he/she has not encountered that type of material before and/or has not spoken to anybody who has handled it to learn about it. If he/she has his wits about him and genuinely wants to learn, he/she will pick it up, and usually quickly. Just as a 'f'rinstance', I think Grader4me would agree that there are many different types of natural gravels and even more types of processed gravels and select fills and that each has its own characteristics. For many of them, the same general methods will work, with or without some minor modifications. For others, there are some highly individual methods that have to be used or the end result will not measure up. There are two ways to gather this knowledge, experience and a GOOD teacher. Methods: Very seldom have I seen a job that could only be approached or handled in one way. That said, some ways are more efficient than others. The trick is in being able to size up a job and work out somewhere between very quickly and immediately what method will work best in the particular situation. Again, experience and a GOOD teacher are the two best ways to learn. The required end result is the reason that most major projects have plans and specifications. Learning to understand these is all important if you are to be able to see the overall end result before it happens. On smaller jobs, like hourly hire to a landowner or householder, you need to listen to what they want the end result to be and work toward achieving that. Doing a project on your own land mostly comes under the second category, smaller jobs. Having all of the above does not, of itself, guarantee that the individual will be a good operator. There is sometimes a sort of a 'gap' between having all the above knowledge and being able to apply it. This is where things like common sense and 'feel' - the 'seat-of-the-pants' stuff - for the machine comes in. A feel for the particular material also helps. And I have had some arguments on this little item at times too - an operator needs to have some imagination. If he/she can't picture the end result in his/her mind, how can he/she work toward it - ESPECIALLY if there are no pegs with levels and other information on them. There is at least ONE more 'tiny' item that has been 'sorta' mentioned earlier in this thread but not very well expanded. That item is ATTITUDE. If a person has a 'can-do - willing-to-learn' attitude he or she will be a lot more likely to become a GOOD operator and an asset to any job or company than a person with a less willing and adaptable attitude. Good machine handlers with bad attitude can be more of a liability than an asset. On the other hand, poor machine handlers with a good attitude can almost always be trained up into good operators. Even very good operators may have all of the above and not have the ability to communicate it to others. This does not make them any less an operator. It simply makes the ones who can communicate their knowledge to others a little more valuable as teachers/trainers. Having said all of the above, I must also say that it IS possible to take a complete beginner and teach him/her to run a machine very well without them ever knowing where to find a dipstick or how to check the water or ever having shovelled out tracks. However, it is not possible to run a machine, especially machines like dozers and graders, very well without the knowledge and understanding of the other three sections above. Now I'm not going to get into any debates or discussions of any of the side issues raised earlier in this thread or any discusions about individual character or ability, especially since I have not personally witnessed any of those concerned putting their skills to work. What I would like to say is that I agree wholeheartedly with those who come here in a spirit of kindredship, either to share knowledge or to gather it, or both. Recriminations, bitterness, judgementalism, etc., will achieve nothing except to create more bad feeling. I sincerely hope that such behaviour will not become the norm here. One of the principles by which I have lived my life for a long time now is KISS - Keep It Simple, Simon - and Yes, I do know that it was originally, 'Keep It Simple, Stupid', but, since I am not into denigration or belittlement, I'll stick with 'Simon'. Peace on Earth. Goodwill to all men - especially operators, repairmen and restorers/collectors and those who don't fit into any of these categories but have a love of machinery.
Nice post Deas!:salute
Older Vs Younger. Hi, CatSkinner77V, If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about what other people may say or think about you. What most of them have never thought of is that what they may say or think about you actually says more about them than it says about you. To clarify, whatever they may say or think about you is THEIR judgement or assessment of you and they are making it without ever having a mile in YOUR shoes. The wording and the judgements of whatever they may say or think can give a pretty good insight into what sort of person they are, whether they are charitable, judgemental, hyper-critical, hypocritical, generous, or whatever. You can hardly ever know the thoughts of others and if they aren't game to say it to your face, it's certainly not worth losing sleep over - and the above applies if they are game to say it to your face. BUT, in the end, the only opinion that really matters is your own. There is an old, old saying that I coined a couple of years ago, "It doesn't matter who you sleep with, you still have to sleep with yourself." If your conscience is clear and you know that you have done your best, what else counts. Your true friends will still be your true friends, no matter what and your enemies will likely never know what they are missing. I left school at 15 and went out to work, at first on farms where I learned to run a Cat D4 2T series dozer and then, at age 20, running a Cat D7 3T series with a cable angle blade and I progressed onward and upward from there. I have never had my own business or my own machine and don't want to. I have too many other spare time interests to be able to run a business and I'm pretty happy having it that way. I do my day's work and then move on to my other interests, just one of which is answering people's queries on the various machinery forums which I frequent. One thing I have learned along the way is that you can generalise about people based on any criteria at all and there will ALWAYS be exceptions. I would guess from the tone of your posts that you are one exception to Dozer575's 'rule' about those younger than 33. Further, I'd guess that you may have a fair slew of younger operators working for you who likewise are exceptions to that 'rule'. Countryboy asked some very good questions in Post 28 on page 2 and in Post 32 on page 3 of this thread. I note that they STILL haven't been answered. Does that tell you anything? And I thank you for the vote of confidence in Post 30. I don't deliberately set out to put anybody 'in their place' 'cos I have no way of knowing where their place really is. That would involve making judgements about them and I'm not into that. What I set out to do is to put forward the best knowledge, experience, understanding and information that I have available at the time for people to use as they will - or won't. What they choose to do with it is entirely their own business and doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that I have done the best that I can. THAT is the important thing. Backhoe89, you asked in Post 53 about how people learned to operate. Well, I may be different from some but I had very little instruction from anybody about how to do it on anything. On the first job where I was employed as a full-time operator, I was taken on as a learner and the foreman under whom I worked in the beginning was one very good teacher, However, I only worked with him for about 4 weeks of the 5 months that I was there. After that, about all I was ever taught was the basics of the controls on a few of the new types of machines that I came across. All the rest, I had to work out for myself. And, even if I do say so myself, I did pretty well at it, to the extent that before I turned 22, a supervisor and an area superintendent asked me if I could produce sufficient quantities of rock with a Cat D9G from a quarry where a Cat D8H just plain could not do it. These men were between 2 and 3 times my age and had 20 to 30 times my experience - I had been a full-time operator for just over ONE year at the time - but they still asked me. I said I reckoned I could, they gave me the D9G, and I did. What I would say to you is get your knowledge and experience any way and anywhere you can, never be afraid to tackle a new job or a strange machine and NEVER be afraid to ask questions - read Squizzy's signature line. Always be alert and have your BS detector switched on - it can save you a lot of grief - and be prepared to learn from the mugs as well as the experts. The mugs may not be able to teach you how TO do something but they can surely teach you how NOT to do something. Learn to learn from other people's mistakes as well as your own. This too can save you a lot of grief. Happy learning.
:iagree Great posts Deas...Thanks!
Deas - very well said.:thumbsup
well said Deas
Excellent post Deas! This is the way things should be on these sites.
Hi Guys, I am looking to buy a D8N, would appreciate any information, I dont know much about these sites so oppologies if I have repeated
Hi Guys, Just thought I would add my 2 pennys (UK) worth here. I just think that any operator who thinks he knows it all is just kidding himself !! I have met many so called operators who are "Legends in their own Lunchbreak" and it is something that really winds me up!! My late Father always told me "you never stop learning and also know matter how good you become there is always going to be someone coming along who is that little bit better so stay on your toes" I have been in the seat since I was 8yrs old and as a fulltime excavator operator for over 25yrs now and I would NEVER under any circumstances claim to know it all, I think anyone that does is just heading for a fall. I have also found out that you can't please everyone all of the time I have worked on many jobs where they tell me I am one of the best they have seen but on the other hand I have worked for some where I just haven't fitted in to the way they work at all. I used to do a lot of work here in the UK on Roadrailer machines (Excavators converted to work on the railways) and there are so many operators doing that who are "Prima Donnas" and think they are Mr Wonderful but put them to work on a construction site doing a final trim or excavating a footing and they are absolutely useless !! On a different note it saddened me to read the dissmisive comments about so called older operators in this thread, I have had the pleasure to work with some fantastic older operators and indeed have learnt so much from them over the years, I could listen to their storys of jobs gone by for hours!!:notworthy
Thanks for the advice Deas
Welcome to HEF rod! :drinkup
Level A and Level B Back when i got my first chance to run a machine it was a scraper.Luckly my brother was a good teacher and the pushcat operator.Being a small company the pushcat operator ran the cut. Didn't have cut boss's and fill boss's.So you learned real fast to set in in front of the pushcat.Just glad my brother was patient with me and an a great operator. The old saying back then was >>>> Theres level A and level B,if you don't know what level A does leave B !!!!!!!!!! Remember going home thinking i'm never going to make it another day.Brother would give me some tips and of course straight me out with a bang on the scraper when i messed up. He could pick you so smooth that you never felt it or he could show you what it felt like to mess up his cut after a night out on the town.Knock you head off!
Welcome to HEF Construct'O! :drinkup
Thanks
I agree with this 100% If you can have the mind-set of #3 then #'s 1&2 will come with experience on just about any machine.:salute I agree with Nick Drew very much!! My Dad was an operator all his life and he told me this; son, don't learn just one thing, you may be the best at it but it will be the only thing you know. He said learn all you can about any and everything you can and you will always make a hand no matter what job it is. I have tried to live like that and it has been a good philosophy for me.
off topic, maybe?? :Banghead
Cut him some slack, he only has 2 posts so he can't start a new thread yet.
What good is it for me to "Welcome" new folks who come here if you're just going to rough them up on their first post. :nono Ease up a little bit....... you were new once too. Back to the topic.......
I'm with you, Nick. Hi, Nick Drew. Very well said. Couldn'ta dunnit betta meself. I have always expressed the 'never stop learning' bit thisaway: "If you ever stop learning, you're dead from the neck up." Legends in their own lunchtime? We have another name for them DownUnder: FIGJAM. (These are the initials of the six words in the name and it has to do with being good and asking the person concerned about how good they are.) I learned quite early that the only people worth trying to please are the bloke who signs the checks and/or his paid representatives - leading hand, foreman, supervisor, etc.. I would suggest to any up-and-coming operator that they learn to be at least competent on one machine first and then take any and every opportunity to learn/have a go at any other machine they can get their delicate butt on. If you happen to be in a situation where there is some sort of credible training program where you work, grab every chance you can. It doesn't matter how many machines you become proficient on, the additional knowledge is no burden to carry around and can be invaluable in keeping you employed. On-the-job training, even just somewhere close to properly done, will usually beat good training at an operator training school, simply because of the hands-on, learn-by-doing aspect of it and the opportunities to see REAL operators doing their things, to talk with them and to learn some of their ways of doing things.
Cheers Deas, Having read your thoughts earlier in this thread I kind of got the impression that we were both on the same wavelength. Best Wishes from the "Pom" :lmao Nick:drinkup
I couldn't agree more with Nick and Deas. Learn as much as you can about everything you can on a jobsite. A successful project has a whole lot more to it than just pushing dirt. Learning to operate a machine is one thing, learning to operate a machine safely and efficiently is another. The best advice my father gave me was "shut your mouth and open your ears" especially when you have an experienced operator or foreman explaining things about the project - you can learn a boat load of knowledge. Another bit of advice - believe it or not sometimes the white hats actually know whats going on. There are many aspects of the job that you may not even know about such as environmental regulations, governmental regulations - like specifications for a certain job, company insurance requiremnets, safety regulations, etc. Not to forget the budgeting, cost accounting, scheduling and project cash flow. It takes alot of money, time and effort to run even a small excavation company. Also listen to your foreman and do what you are asked to do. Here's an example that happened on of my one projects last week. Our OTR dump driver was hauling spoil from a force main intallation to another part of the project to backfill the curbs with. There were plenty of places to dump the material that would have been beneficial for backfilling curbs - we would not have to move the spoil twice. He tells me that he is going to cut a road in with the RTB and dump down in the bottom. I explain to him about dumping behind the curb so we can use it as backfill and specifically not to cut a road in. The next day I cruise the project only to see an attempt at cutting a road in to dump in the bottom - he tried to push a hickory tree down without any luck and grade a road in. Unbeknowst to the driver the pipe foreman had placed 3 air gaps for the force main in the woods to hide them since they are $1000 a piece. Luckily all the driver did was cover them up with dirt and no damage was done but the whole situation would have been avoided if he would have done what he was asked to do and not go thinking on his own. Of course the driver had no knowledge of the air gaps being there - but the point is just do what you are asked to do. This could have cost the company $3000 bucks and the driver his job. The driver has now been "promoted" to roller operator with an open ROPS since the water truck has an operator.
:falldownlaugh :falldownlaugh :falldownlaugh As a truck driver thats the best laugh I've had today.
Doing as instructed. Hi, CM1995. I agree heartily with you about people following instructions. Now you might need to be on your toes to see that your 'new' roller driver doesn't take it into his head to iron out those strange concrete barriers along the sides of the roads so that people can get into their properties easier. LOL. I saw one grader operator on a job a few years ago take out about 25 yards of 2-day-old concrete curb 'cos he couldn't be told that the ground was too wet to get in there with the grader at that time. The footpath area sloped down fairly steeply to the curb at that point 'cos it hadn't yet been shaped and it was all silty clay. Down he went and he didn't have enough sense to stop even then and wait to be towed out. He did manage to get out by himself - - - right through the new curb and onto the road where he left big mobs of mud all over the base course gravel. He was given another job too - - - looking for another job. Whenever I have been in a supervisory situation, I have tried to make sure that my key operators all knew as much as possible of what needed to be done, ie. what material needs to go from where to where, and left them to do it the best way they knew how. I have found that most grader operators worth their pay are able to pretty much run their section of a job without dramas and most good dozer operators are in the same boat. With these people, I usually give 'em 'the picture' and let 'em get on with it. It doesn't take long to work out who you can do this and who you can't. I'm not keen on having somebody else tell me HOW to operate the machine I'm running so I try not to do it to others. However, there are times when a specific approach does need to be used to achieve the desired result in the least possible time with the least possible effort. On those occasions I tell the people concerned what I want done in more detail. Mostly, it works. Mind you, there have been times too when I was operating a machine and something has come up that needs a decision and there's no supervision to be seen. If I have the whole story, I can usually figure it out for myself. If I'm working in a 'mushroom farm', it can be a little harder.
This thread has been interesting to read to say the least. I can add a few more points, age doesn't mean anything. The simple fact is; the more time you spend running a dozer or excavator or skid steer or dump truck etc. the better you will get at it. Everyday is a first day to get better and smarter at what you do. Watching is good but doing is better! Like others have said it takes time to be able to visualize what it is supposed to look like. It takes time and practice to get a level grade with an excavator or dozer. And it takes time to learn how to down shift an old Mack 7 speed. Don't forget it takes time and experience to learn what to charge, how to get paid, pay your bills, and follow all the rules and regulations. So congratulations to anyone that has put in the time, money and effort it takes to make a living at what I hope you enjoy doing, I do, that to me all the reward I need. :drinkup
Doing what you like and liking what you're doing. Hi, Jmac. Well put. Like you, I enjoy my work. I guess I've just been a kid in a BIG 'sandpit' for over 40 years.
Not only do you need those three things, but you must be able to see your finished product the entire time. You need to know what you want to do. I've seen guys talk all morning about how they are going to do somthing and 10mins after they start moving dirt they change their entire plan of attack. Thats the way earth moving is somtimes. But you must be able to adapt to changes. One other thing I have learned, from having family biz, is to be able to make the customer feel comfortable with what you are doing, even if they think you are going about it wrong. I've had times like that, they figure you are going all wrong, tell em just wait til I'm done then if its not what you want I will change it. They usually are fine with that.
Excellent thread,I've enjoyed reading the responses!
Hey Dozerboy, I like that reply a lot better than the question, it just needed a exclamation mark after whatever!
I use that same tactic, I nearly allways try and say what needs doing rather than saying how it should be done and I don't mind admiting that by taking that approach I have learned a few tricks. I spend a lot of time working with foreign operators and in the begining the language barrier makes the later difficult but I still try and it is usualy still possible so long as you keep things simple (Simon ) and their is a willingness to listen. I have been at it long enough to be ear marked as one of the older operators and I have been able to hold my own wherever I have been to date. Obviously in the begining for me it was not that way and that begining period is going to vary in length from person to person, just like learning to read and write does. Which brings me to my next point, when you are younger you pick things up, learn if you like, a lot faster than when you are older. I know I still try and learn the language when I am in a new country and I get by, but my hard drive is pretty well loaded and it does not get easier thats for sure. , I find their is some truth to that saying, that someone has forgotten more than you will ever know. I don't see how the second part of that can be true, how do you know when someone will stop learning? However I do know that sometimes now I will be doing something with a machine and an easier way will fall into place and half an hour or so later I will remember having done that same trick 5 maybe 10 years ago. I do feel I that I have learned a lot of ways to save time and maybe cut some corners/cost over the years but as far as operating the machine (minus the tricks and wrinkles picked up along the way) I would say that my hadling of the machine is very little different now than when I was in my early Twenties. The guy that knows it all invariably has a lot to learn, if he did but know it!
were to put the key, how to adjust the seat and were the cup holder is to put the coffee. lol
Nick Drew,I have had the same experiences as yourselve,just remember when working for an ar--wipe that its not easy working for a man that does not know.....if you are doing a good job or a bad job!!!!. I agree with comments about trying different machines-here in N Ireland the 360 excavator reigns supreme so most of the guys here are "experts" on that with some having a little extra on dumptrucks and backhoe loaders. We also have the same prima donnas tho over here the three essentials are the key,the radio and the heater! I also believe that you learn something new every day and the man who reckons he has learnt it all should be pensioned off because he's now a health and safety liability. Neil
Nah Neil, the man whom has learned it all is now a health and safety 'EX PERT.....
Joe-LOL theres a lot of truth in what you say-mind you we seem to have a load of Health and safety people who have no experience of operating machines but think because they have a college degree they know better than the rest of us. Now dont get me wrong I have the greatest respect for people who have sweated to get a degree but a degree aint no good for pulling levers neil
So how do you deal with the "operator" that obviously doesn't grasp what we're trying to do, and you explain things over and over to them, and they still absolutely will not do what they're told? It gets so frustrating. I understand there are different ways to get to the end product, but why make it so difficult. Do people not listen or are they just being bullheaded? I guess as long as there is a paycheck on Friday, who cares.
I think I met one of your guys, Pushcat. Hi, Pushcat. I think I met one of the guys you are talking about. On a job about 3 1/2 years ago, there was an operator ona Cat 825C compactor. It didn't seem to matter how patiently you explained something to this guy, he would end up trying to do it differently. One day, I pushed out a wet spot that had several layers of different material in it. I pushed it all into one big heap on one side of the hole. The resulting hole was about 3 feet deep and about 60 feet long by 40 feet wide, surface area. The 'dirt doctor and I then explained to this compactor 'steering wheel attendant' in great detail that we wanted him to go and push it back into the hole in 1 foot layers, starting from one side of the heap, not climbing over it, so that he would also be further mixing the material as he was pushing it back in. Off he went. The dirt doctor and watched him drive up to the heap and start to try to climb over it, trying to push a blade full ahead of him. I asked the dirt doctor who was going over there, me or him, to sort this gentleman out. The dirt doctor volunteered, I think because he realised that the gentleman would not like me very much after I had gotten through with him. (He didn't like me much anyway 'cos we had already had previous run-ins over his failure to follow instructions and I had told him in no uncertain terms that I considered him a waste of payroll space, a 'turner', an asset to any unemployment queue and that the oxygen that he was taking out of the atmosphere could be put to better use. Nice type, aren't I? Yes, even I can get a little 'blunt' when people consistently stuff up. About the only thing this guy did right the whole time he was there was leave.)
Hey Deas - did by chance this guy move to the States? I think he may work for me now. Tell us what you really think of this guy. Sometimes the truth hurts. ointhead BTW - Great sayings, mind if I use a couple?
What did I REALLY think????? Hi, CM1995. Ackshully, this guy was not a bad bloke - - - - - right up until he put his skinny butt in a seat on a machine somewhere. He just could not do as he was told which, in this case, was fairly important as the whole job was under level one compaction specs. This means that all fill placed had to be right up to the spec. compaction requirement of 95%, moisture had to be right, the whole bit. And the dirt doctor was there to see that it was all done right. The dirt doctor and I got along very well and virtually ran the job together. I looked after placing the fill and organising the trucks and he looked after the moisture and compaction. Worked like dream - except for this case of youthful enthusiasm gone wrong on the part of the compactor operator's parents - if you get my drift. Please feel free to use any sayings you like.
Its all in the seat of your pants
It's all WHERE???????????? Hi, Tdozer. Firstly, welcome to this corner of cyberspace and Steve Frazier's School For Cybernet Operators. So, it's all in the seat of your pants, huh? So THAT'S where I've been going wrong these last 40-odd years? I've been trying to use my head, my eyes, my butt, my hands, my feet, the boss' instructions, the client's wishes, laser levels, GPS and even, God forbid, the machine that I've been given, to try to do all the jobs that I have been given. Now you tell me that it's all in the seat of my pants. No wonder I have such a hard time getting it right. All this time I thought it was just my big butt in the back of my shorts and I've been complicating the issue out of all proportion and just making things hard for myself when I could have just taken my pants off, shook them out, and the finished job would have fallen out before my very eyes. LOL. I must try that next time I am levelling a house site that is overlooked by a high rise apartment block.
I understand what your saying tdozer. I have heard that expression many times. Especially from older operators that arnt to keen on relying on all the new technology to run their machines for them. The expression reffers to an operators natural ability to feel the ground/grade beneath him through the seat. As well as his machine. If you dont have that natural ability then you best have a gps running your blade for you or youre going to have a really hard time.
:lmao :lmao Deas: spare us!...I'm trying to eat here!...the mental imagery is killing me tdozer: If you haven't noticed Deas is a big fan of using his posterior to its best effect...and there might be a tad of leg pullin going on here. Butt (thats a butt joke) the fundamental you point out goes most every machine I have run...Deas raises valid points about all the other things that must go with it. Butt after having given lots and lots of advice and instruction to my learner driver nephew I took him out to his first building site on which to do a proper job on the loader. I told him to just keep it simple and do the three following things: 1.) Shift the dirt from point A to point B with minimum machine movements 2.) Keep your bucket low 3.) Watch out for Wombats Number 3 is reference to builders, tradies and other morons who simply drive into a building site and park right behind your machine while you are working. As far as I was concerned, if he got the job done without hitting anything it would be a good first day. The other points raised above...particularly that telemetry feed back to the brain box through the glutius maximus....they will come with time.
Wombats and other 'vermin'. Hi, Squizzy. Mate, how many times do I hafta tellya, keep the words down to wun silly-bill ore les. Wot ar 'mental' an 'imagery'? 'Telemetry'?????? 'Glutius maximus'??????????? C'mon, Mate! I'm jus a pore dum lever attendent. Ackshully, Eyem surpreyesed that you picked up that I reckon there's moor to op'ratin' than scratchin yer butt - er jus settin' onn it. Didjya neff-phew put yer up to it? An' diddee hit ennythin' on his first day? Like neff-phew one - builders nil? Dideye manage ter spoil yer tea?????????
I had to give up on my tea Deas...it was ruined. Nephew has so far done really well...exceptional (but I don't give him too much courage). His posterior is a little delicate if you know what I mean...and I'm not talking hot air here. He's very nervous when loader, skid steer or excavator gets on any sort of an angle.....I'm happy with that, keeps him cautious....but it also means he hasn't yet learned the limits of his machinery. That will come with time and practice. I'd rather have that than some cowboy who is over confident. I had him sit on the handbrake in the loader when I loaded some trucks and he said later he was amazed at the speed the machine went in and out of the trucks....and somewhat in need of a change of underwear. Big difference between watching uncle from the ground and the view from the cab. But back to the topic at hand.....I'll be so presumptuous as to suggest that what you are saying is the most important part might well be the wiring that connects the rear end sensor (and others) to the main processor???...and perhaps that a lack of "processing" could be the biggest downfall amongst some you have crossed paths??. I'll give my example. Last year I landed 3 weeks work on the loader digging out a basement carpark for a high rise development down on the Swan. We went 16 hours a day, 6 days a week. I ran the morning shift and my compadre did the afternoon. It was good dough. Anyway, compadre has some bleeding heart excuse for a couple of days off (cat died or something) so he lines me up another guy who is supposedly well versed on loaders and will look after the machine. I had over to him and away he goes. Next morning I am in at 4am to find the machine not fueled or greased, and the site looking like an atomic test was conducted. I cleanup and get enough room for the trucks to turn around and have the place sorted before the super turns up. When I hand over to the new chum I stay back and watch him for a few buckets....he's got more wheel spin than Nikki Lauder and can't cut a level to save himself. I go over and jump in the machine with him and get him to carry on. As the machine in bouncing up and down like a Kangaroo I ask (somewhat sarcastically) "can't you feel that". He says yeah...what is it...I thought there was something wrong with this machine. With about 3 degrees of extra bite on the bucket and a lesson on loading up the front end to stop the wheelspin he was driving like a champion and seemed to think I was some sort of a wizard and wonderous benefactor because I took just a couple of minutes to explain a few things. Point being; he couldn't interpret what was coming through his posterior...and didn't have the smarts to do something about it anyway...and as it turned out, in the past, he'd been treated like a donkey and paid peanuts so he was never going to get any better. He just needed a bit of help. But, I'm still amazed that he couldn't sort it himself:beatsme
Thats right on the way you handled that guy Squizzy. From what I know of you just from reading your posts here you must be a really great guy to work for. The way you manage your guys I imagine you probaly have a team that really cares about their jobs and have no problem going the extra mile for you when needed because of the way you treat them. On crews that I have worked with in the past the best ones were the ones that had a leader like yourself. The guys that would have showed up and ripped that guy on the loader a new arshole seem to have the worst crews that are the least productive.
Well Brian, it wasn't always like that...and anyway, he still got a mild bollicking over the greasing a fueling .
lol and he deserved it on the greasing and fueling part. There is no excuse for that.
I agree with the key stand out points about knowing or being a real operator. I have seen a lot of these so called operators in this industry. There is one key that no has has mentioned that a real operator knows their machine inside and out. Know it's capabilities and what makes it tick. Lube and maintain it .Wear it out and don't break it. Your cab is your office not a garbage dump.Good operators take care of their machines and some even treat them better than women.:usa
Knowing the mechanics of the machine itself is a mechanics job not an operator. Anymore that the average driver of a car on the road knows the mechanics. And besides most unions won't allow you to even check the oil let alone grease the machine. The only mechanics that an operator needs to know is what happens when the lever is pulled or released, and how to start and stop it. Operating is everything to do with how to do the job with the machine, and how to use it productively not wasting diesel and time.
Well I will say that comming from a family owned business and only 4 employees at that, we did EVERYTHING to our machines. Each one of us had his own machine, we all could run it but each machine had a main guy. Dad and my uncle Harvey on the two dozers, Grandpa or myself on the self loading scraper and myself on the excavator and we have a few other machines as well. We did everything on them from daily greasing and lube checks to overhauls and under carriage. If we had to have someone do even just the major things we could never have been able to stay in business. Somtimes the transmissions, tourque convertors, etc would be sent out but mostly we did everything ourselves and you knew by running the machine what was getting wore or weak. Just my two cents. Jason
Operator?????? Or simply an 'aimer'. Hi, Folks. These last two posts, from Dozer575 and TD15C DozerMan, intrigue me. They demonstrate two totally different approaches to operating. I have to say that TD15C's approach is the one that I grew up with and have worked with pretty much all my life. If all I had known of the 'workings' of the machine was that it turned when you pulled a lever or turned the steering wheel, I would not have been able to hold down a LOT of the jobs I have held down over the years. Nor would I have been able to do them as well as I did do them. On a couple of occasions, I would even have been faced with a 20 mile walk home if I could not have managed to get a machine going again without a fitter. I once took the front cover off the control box of a Cat 12E grader, removed a broken blade lift control shaft and swapped the scarifier control shaft into the blade lift and put it all back together to get home and I did it with no more than a 10" adjustable wrench and the bottom half of a four gallon drum. Dozer575, let's see one of your union site pretty boys do that. Quote from Dozer575: "The only mechanics that an operator needs to know is what happens when the lever is pulled or released, and how to start and stop it. Operating is everything to do with how to do the job with the machine, and how to use it productively not wasting diesel and time." Unquote. I beg to differ here, Dozer575. I personally would not hire an operator - any operator - especially not to put out on his own, unless I knew that he had at least a pretty fair understanding of the mechanics of the machine. Unless he does have this understanding of its internal workings, there is a good chance that he may miss some potentially very expensive fault in the early stages of development and thus contribute to a mechanical disaster. If the prospective employee happened to be a pretty promising beginner, I could possibly be tempted to take him or her on and spend a bit of time with them to help them gain this sort of understanding in order to make a more useful - and trustworthy - operator out of them. On top of all this, you say you want to buy your own machine and start contracting on your own. I hope that you know a little more about the machine you choose than what happens when you pull a particular lever or you may not be in business for very long. I also have to say that I query your belief in your own post in light of your statement that you do want to buy your own machine. But it makes no matter to me. It's you that will be footing the bills for it all. This puts it in my 'N.M.P' folder - Not My Problem.
I have worked with many operators that thought that they knew the mechanics of the machine. "thought" But be honest. Just like you or anyone supposedly knowing how the machine operates and the mechanics there of, and then someone comming out and saying you are not a mechanic unless you know chemistry and metallurgy, electronics and have a degree in mechanical and electrical engineering, is like you saying a person can not be an operator unless they know the machine inside and out. Yeah that knowledge makes them a more valuable employee, but to grade and clear or what ever on a piece of heavy equipment that person does not need to know the intermost parts of his/her machine and such things as failure analysis, or the need to know how to operate a machine tool to accomplish the given job as a mechanic. Oh but weren't we talking about an operator? That is like saying you are not a good carpenter if you don't understand the intermost workings of your skill saw or table saw, and how to rewind the electric motor. Come on. You can nit pic any profession with that logic. And then there is the constant comment that it is a seat of your pants deal. I fully agree, but that just gets you doing the first 2 items, moving the machine and working the machine. The seat of your pants isn't gona tell you how to go about doing the job at hand. Cause to figure that part out you don't even need to be on the machine.
On the subject of being a mechanic. I can turn wrenches and when hyd hoses blow, welds break, filters are clogged or other minor problems I can usually take care of the task but I do not classify myself as a mechanic. I've helped overhaul engines and removed tourque convertors and rear ends but usually send that stuff to the professionals. If it gets in to deep, as Dozer 575 was saying most of us are not going to jump into it anyways, cept for maybe removing it from the machine. I know if i were hiring, and I just got hired by a company as some of you know, I would like a person to be well rounded and able to help out with just bout anything within the company. Now, on to the Union thing. The man from which i learned a great deal from on excavators retired from the union Local 139(wisconsin) and he worked for Rock Road, they do about anything with highway construction. Don had spent over 30 years working for one of the local contractors in town, they did paving, earth moving, water and sewer work, etc. He, like most of the other guys worked on the equipment during the winter months and when he went to work for Rock Road the first thing they asked him was if he could weld and had a basic understanding of turning wrenches. They also gave him a greease gun and told him, "Go wear this thing out"(he still has it). They had many full time mechanics but if it were somthing minor they did the repair themsleves, cause the full time wrenches were usually busy with other things. Another guy i know, runs front end loader for Wingra Stone in Madison, hes at the rock quarries and they are also Operators Union 139. I asked him one day bout working on equipment or did they have the mechanics do it all. He said they same as Don did. They have enough large projects to work on that if we could handle the task we got the tools out of our truck or job shack and went to it. Oh, almost forgot. My uncle Roger worked for a number of road outfits, all union 139 and his own truck was always full of tools and stuff that they needed out on the job site and if somthing broke down they tore it apart and fixed it. Last one he worked for was WK Construction. So this goes to show you that even the UNION guys still turn wrenches. If you think I am making this up just look up the companies, they are all in operation and all the guys i listed are alive and kicking. Jason
Are we talking about OPERATORS or lever attendants? Hi, Dozer 575. Are we talking about OPERATORS or lever attendants here?
Operators, they run equipment to accomplish the job at hand, mechanics drive service trucks on site to fix the machine that isn't working correctly or is broke. It really isn't rocket science to figure it out. Though when a mechanic drives on the site in the truck, is he a mechanic or just a wrench and truck attendant and have a good line of BS? A bad mechanic and an operator that thinks he knows the mechanics can do more damage to a machine than someone that is smart enough to know to leave it alone. If I was hiring an operator, I would want him for that. I would not want him welding chicken sh__ droppings welds on my machines. Nor would I want him trying to work on a hydraulic system and dragging it around in the dirt. Or would I want him removing the airfiter to blow it out right there with the engine running. Hey I have seen it all. Or would I want an operator that thought he was a mechanic trying to remove an 855 cummins and wrapping the chain around the fuel filter bracket as one of the pick points. Come on. Yeah some of us can do it all but not all can or should. Can your wife or teenage daughter change a tire let alone, know how to change a CV shaft or do a pressure check on an automatic transmission, in their cars? If not why are they driving it, they are not a qualified driver if they don't know the mechanics and how to fix it. Gosh I had a good friend that was a pretty good mechanic, that I would not want working on any of my stuff. Why? He was not careful with the parts, I would not want parts worth hundreds tossed around, hammered on pryed on and gouged and scratched. And that is what most all in the business do.
Operators. lever attendants and mechanics. Hi, Dozer575. If you re-read my post, you may notice that I didn't say I would want an operator who COULD repair an engine or a powershift transmission. What I said was that I would be looking for operators who had some understanding of the mechanics of their machines and I gave my reason for this line of thinking. Another reason for this line of thinking is that it often helps if the operator of a broken down machine can give the mechanic a hand with the repairs and this helps to keep the operator gainfully employed during the break down. I grant you that a person does not need to know the inner workings of a machine to know how to operate it. BUT, in my experience, the novice who can handle a machine but doesn't know the workings of it will often do a LOT more damage than an experienced operator who does have some understanding of what effect his operating technique and/or the operating conditions might be having on the machine and takes due care to minimise those effects. For a LARGE part of my operating career, I have been required to be able to weld, to do my own maintenance and to do many minor repairs. This was pretty standard for much of the country where I started my operating career, 200, 300, 400 miles from any dealer service centre and often not much less to any reliable mechanic. Would you want somebody who could only operate the machine in such circumstances? The companies that I worked for didn't. About two weeks ago, my current employer bought a 'new' second-hand Cat 943 track loader sight unseen from a dealer 400 miles away. The machine works quite well but was a trifle gutless. It also would not suck more than about 1/2 the fuel out of the tank before it started sucking air. When I told the boss, he immediately said it would be the pick-up pipe in the tank. I said I thought it might be the lift pump. He had the Cat mechanic take a look at it. It turned out to be a piece of grit stuck under a valve in the lift pump. The Cat mechanic said he was surprised it even started, let alone ran with enough power to work. I reminded him that the top half of the fuel tank is above the level of the lift pump. He then agreed that that would account for it starting and running until it got down to half a tank. Now if I didn't have any understanding of the mechanics of the machine, what chance would I have of being able to point the mechanic in the right direction like that? During wet weather, I get pulled back into the workshop to do repairs, maintenance and welding that we don't get much chance to do when it is dry. At these times, there may be three or four of us in the workshop and I am pretty much in charge when the boss isn't there and consulted a fair bit when he is. I also usually get told which machines need what doing to them and get left to do it the best way I can see how. This is because the company has 14 machines and I normally only get to operate 3 or 4 of them as the rest have regular operators on them full-time. And just for the record, my welding isn't bird droppings and I haven't yet stuffed up a transmission repair. With regard to my wife or teenage daughter doing repairs, I don't have either but both my ex-wife and my last partner COULD change a tyre if needed. And I think it is a little ridiculous to compare driving a car on a public road to operating a large and very expensive machine in rough conditions. You are entitled to your views and I would be the first to defend that right but that doesn't mean that I am going to agree with you or lie down and let you tell me how it is. I have an odd hour or two in the saddle of one or two different types, makes and models of machines on a different application or three here and there myself and I'd like to kid myself that I haven't entirely wasted all those years by learning nothing but how to point the machine in a certain direction.
As to back up my own post, I myself do not call myself a mechanic and am usually the first to call one if somthing major occurs. But growing up I've learned from my dad, uncle and many other guys that if you don't know how to do somthings on fixing then you are not much good by yourself or in a small company. Just last year I removed the entire differential on our JD 860 Scraper, very large undertaking. Removed the to ends and loaded the pumpkin up and took it to our John Deere Dealer in Dubuque IA to actually do the repair work. Engines, usually do them in chassis. As far as welding, well I learned to weld when I was 12, did it all through high school and even went and got a one year technical degree in welding. I know that doesn't make you a good welder, but I also got state certified. Even with all that, if somthing major and in a more difficult location breaks, I call our local welding shop to come up and fix it. I'm not saying that a good operator has to be a welder, fabricator, engine tech, computer nerd, know it all to do his job. But the company I work for is pretty large in size, and its just a branch of a larger firm and they said they need guys that can do a number of different jobs. To quote DOZER 575 "I've seen it all", when you think you have seen it all you are full of it. I will agree with you fully, I've seen first hand guys that have pulled the same stunts as you mentioned and usually after that they get a huge rear end chewing, and when it comes time for winter lay offs they are one of the first to be done. Not all of us are alike, I have a cousin who from the time he was 10 was tearing dirt bikes apart, all the way up to now, working on semis and trucks,and well still dirt bikes and his brother, well you have him go get a 9/16 wrench out of the tool box, he will look at everything from a 1/4 to a 1". No one wants to fight, but if i don't agree I will speak my mind.
Dozer 575, This is a very narrowminded and stupid point of view. Don´t you really think that an operator who also knows the mechanics of the machine is a better employee and is a good help in e.g. diagnosing the machine? Or is it maybe all about getting some ´lever monkeys´ for as low vages as possible? I´m not saying by this that an operator necceserely has to carry out repair work him self, but in diagnosing, maintaining and knowing the limits og what a machine is capable of it sure is very good to have some technical knowledge. And compairing driving heavy machinery to driving a car is a bit overoing it in my humble opinion. And unions forbidding operators to grease and check oil levels!!? Is is really like this in the US? Then who should check oil levels? Forgive my curiousity
You'd be surprised at the limitations some Unions impose on the workers. In my opinion, it is all in place to put more men to work who will be paying dues and administration fees to the hall. Depending on the size of the company and the contract they have, either the mechanic or a dedicated oiler (whose sole job is to check the oil and grease the machine) checks the oil. Check out the thread on Unions we have running. I agree an operator who had knowledge of the mechanical workings of the machine will be a better operator. I know it has for me. I understand what my hands are doing to the machine, and better understand the limitations of the machine avoiding abuse. I can also make the machine work most efficiently without putting undo stress on any of the components. Plus, I know sooner when something is wrong and can stop before catastrophic damage occurs rather than run the machine until it breaks. The more you know about anything you're doing, the better you will be at it. The comparison was made about drivers not knowing the mechanics of cars and I will agree, many have no clue how cars work. There are also a number of bad drivers in our population, and a great number that get by ok without knowing. But there are some who know their cars inside and out, know how slight changes will effect the driving of the car, these are the people who get paid to drive them most Sunday afternoons and get paid well.
Very well said. I have said many times in this forum that I'm not a mechanic, but I can relate to the above statement, and also agree.
Couldn't - and didn't - say it better myself Hi, Steve. I couldn't - and didn't - say it better myself. This is exactly what I mean by an operator having some mechanical understanding of his/her machine. Like Grader4me, I do not call myself a mechanic but I do have a pretty fair undertsnading of how the various machines that I operate work and what makes them do what they do - or are supposed to do.) Dozer 575, I'm also with EZ TRBO here. If you think you've seen it all, there is still at least one thing that you haven't yet learned. "If you ever stop learning, you're dead from the neck up". Personally, I have 42 1/2 years of seat time now on a great many types, makes and models of machines in a wide range of applications and I've seen and done a LOT but I'm NOWHERE NEAR having seen and done it all. So may I ask, with the greatest of respect, how you have managed to cram IT ALL into what I'd guess are a few less years? Over the time that you have been posting here, you have put up some pretty good posts, asked some good questions and given some good information. You have also put up a few posts that I and others have taken issue with. That is fine as we are all entitled to our own opinions and ideas. However, I would also point out that you have been 'jumped on' and disagreed with more than any other single contributor to this site, at least since I've been posting here and that's been longer than you have been here. Can you think of any reason why that might be? I'll leave you to think about that - if you want to out in the mental effort.
Yeah....is it really like that here? :beatsme I've been a Union member for 21 years.... This is new to me.... I've never seen it, in fact if you don't or refuse to check oil/water/pump grease, the office/shop will find out. They pay every operator to do these things. And every operator knows this when he accepts the job. Those who take advantage of this extra pay without doing their entire job end up back on the out of work list. This equipment that is run by many different operators is how I earn my living. Way to often, it's me that deals with the abuse, damage and neglect these machines go through. I do everything I can to make sure any piece of equipment that I run is in good working order. It's economically cheaper for me to make repairs/adjustments out in the field rather than haul a machine back to the yard. Our mechanics already have their hands full. So I (get paid) and do what I can to help out. There are times when this means letting the office know about operators that abuse equipment, neglect equipment and just make the Company look bad. Those are not the kind of people we need. I have little or no tolerance for that kind of operator. Regardless of what another operator might think of me...I could really care less. And when it comes to whomevers rules, take it somewhere else. If you refuse to do the job the way that was agreed upon, or purposely abuse the equipment, your down the road. I'll see to it....and I don't have a problem doing that. Remember, I came to work here to make money....not friends. Thats how I take care of those who pay my wages. In turn, they take care of me.
Kodak Faults. Hi, Folks. One thing that nobody has mentioned yet is the effect that some contractors have on their employees by taking what I call the 'Kodak Fault' approach to reported machine problems. Unless it a 'biggie', some contractors have a habit of telling their employess, "Let it develop", or something similar. Hence the Kodak Fault. Now what message does this send to the poor worker? And, by NOT having some mechanical understanding of their machine, an unaware operator will simply do this anyway. A fault that could have been picked up on by a GOOD operator and fixed early will go undetected/unreported until it becomes a HUGE expense. Which would you rather have happen with YOUR machine? Early detection? Or disaster?
The first day I worked for a construction company in Westchester County, I walked to the truck and went to check the oil. I was stopped by the shop steward and told that was not my job, it was the "oiler's". His job was to grease everything and check the oil in the morning. He did light mechanical work the rest of the day. Not every company I worked for had oilers, just the larger ones. If you were on a job site and someone left a tool in your way, you couldn't pick it up and move it, a laborer had to. The unions in NYC and Westchester County are very tight and make a big issue of a guy doing something outside of his job description, regardless of how slight it seemed.
I have never worked union but I have worked for two different large outfits that are the same as Steve described. All you did was operate. All the fueling, greasing and maintenance was someone else's job and if you tried to do it some would get right uptight about it.
With out repeating what others have written, I would have to side with operators have a basic understanding of how a machine works. If you have that understanding that if the machine is making a noise that is not normal or working in a manner that is not normal is it not a big advantage to be able to first recognize that there is a problem and better yet recognize what it could be or how serious it is? I have had an employee that was operating my skid steer and while he was on it one of the pins that hold the bucket on worked it's way out. He just kept on running it and had no idea that something was wrong. It was caught at the early stages no big deal to fix. He had no idea and it became a bigger problem after continued use. Just simple things like that will save money and time. Same thing with my dump truck oor any or the other equipment. Just realizing some small problem "something doesn't look rite or sound rite" in the early stages of the problem will save money. The longer you operate a machine the better feel you should have for the way it should run.
My union allows me to be paid grease time for qualifying machines everyday before start time.I work for a small scale company.I take care of the equipment I operate.Yes I do read the manuals behind the seat and parts books also.Does this make me a mechanic or a tech? No but it gives me knowledge of proper fluid levels and different systems that make up a machine that the average guy has no clue or does not care about..For all you check nothing , fire it up, hear or see nothing park it and run guys enjoy what you do. Most Excavation company owners have been around for years and they are not fools.. I make my boss money when I operate and produce.My boss saves money when I hear or see problems before they become big. My boss has shown me his appreciation with twenty two years of steady work. and new pickups often.:usa
Amazing..... IMHO, its things like this that give unions a bad name. We all have 1 common goal at the job site. Thats to safely and efficiently complete the job on or ahead of schedule. I'll be the first one to jump down in a trench if thats what needs to be done. I really don't care if it upsets someone. I've dealt with these cry babies before and I'll deal with them in the future. Maybe I've done too many of my own jobs to be able to comply with anybodies "you cant do that" rules. I know one thing, I'll never sit in my seat waiting for someone to move a shovel or tool when I could have done it myself. Wasted time and money on things like this is what makes company's go broke. Maybe its the scab in me....but I'll tell you what.... I'll always do what it takes to make sure my job gets done, my equipment keeps running and my customer makes money. If I fail to do this and to have this kind of attitude, I stand a chance to loose money. Like it or not, this works for me, and has for over 20 years. There's always calls into the office from clients/customers/contractors and superintendents requesting me for a job. It makes my bosses happy and makes me money. And thats what it's all about. :drinkup :cool2
Maybe I should have added a little more to my last post. If it sounded like I am a check nothing know nothing type of operator it's not the case. I know the equipment I operate very well and take good care of it. And because a company has fuel/lube guys does not mean they want a no mind at the controls. It just means they don't have to worry about the slackers that may not give the machine enough love when it comes to grease and oil....I know some will say "I wouldn't have a guy that slacked on it like that, he would be fired." But good luck with that when you have a couple hundred pieces of iron, a large turn over rate and many peaces just siting because you cant find ANY operators for them. The machines are running and ready to go when the operators show up. Most have small log books (for lack of a better term) that the operators fill out daily to report how the machine is operating/functioning. Those are handed in for the mechanics weekly, or sooner if needed. I have also worked for the smaller companies were I was operator, maintenance man, mechanic, grade man..and anything else you can think of involved with the job. I remember one time in particular I was the only machine on the job (almost always was) and I lost the front transmission in a TS-14. I was only a few miles from the shop so I limped her home. I rounded up the bosses son (he was 14 at the time, only one around the yard) and we swapped out a transmission from a parts machine and I was on my way back to work in a couple hours. I can also relate to what Deas said. I was working for a high ball outfit on a 637 one time and my transmissions went out of sync. The mechanic was near by so I went over to see him. The foreman came over and lost it. Started yelling around about wasting time and the machine was still capable of moving so get it going. The mechanic and I tried to tell him it was just the brain box in the back and would only take a few minutes to swap for the spare the mechanic had. He wouldn't have it and sent me back out to run it the way it was. It was real deep muck between the cut and the main haul road and I couldn't get through with a full load in the shape the machine was in. So I was taking half loads and just barely making it through. Well that got him mad to. "Fill that thing up! GO GO GO!" I tried to explain but it was falling on deaf ears...your tongue will make you deaf eh lol this guy never stopped screaming long enough to hear anything. So I heaped her up and spent about 2 of the next 3 hours waiting for cats to push me. What a waste. I finally got mad enough and bored with waiting for the cats I went and seen the mechanic anyways and we both told him were to go when he pulled up. 10 minutes later I was high balling with a full load again. Yes I think a good operator should Know more then just how to operate his machine. Doesn't mater weather you maintain your own machine or not, the more you know the more your worth.
Well in that case I've got some ex-employees who owe ME!
Happy Collecting. Hi, Squizzy. Good point, Mate, but happy collecting. This situation reminds me a bit of the old recipe for making rabbit pie that starts off, "First catch your rabbit." I too have worked on union jobs where an operator was not supposed to check anything or grease anything. Most of the major construction sites that I have been on and most of the mines that I have worked in have been like this. Unless the machine was already running when I got to it or the service truck was about to arrive, I always checked it over before starting. I was working on the principle that the First Rule Of Anything Is C.Y.A. - Cover Your 'Delicate Posterior'. I still do. I don't like anyone lunching on my fundamental orifice. :ban LOL. I too get a goodly number of customers asking for me personally when they book a job. I can assure you it ain't for my good looks. Any future lady in my life will need to have enough of them for both of us 'cos I'm just a trifle deficient in that department. Not Quasimodo, but hardly Robert Redford either. LOL.
unions i know things are a bit different in the UK but when i was a lad i can remember the news coverage of the strikes, flying pickets,British coal ,British Lelyand ,British steel ,British railways etc power cuts rubbish piling high in the streets riots etc ,Maggie thatcher stood up to the unions ,and the unions lost i personally think it did our country good as the union run loss making companies could not survive without major change, i am not saying unions are bad now although i think they were back then. i have never thought strike action solved anything all it seemed to do was cost a company struggling to survive more money and down time,yes i can understand a walkout on safety grounds but not when a company needs to reduce a workforce to survive i am 39 now and have never been asked if i am a member of a union at any workplace just goes to show how different our countries are thanks graham
Deas I guess I like to get people to think, must be why. I have said that knowing the mechanics makes them a better employee. And yes they can sure save a big dollar failure. But my whole point is to operate you don't need to know nothin about how the machines inners work. I guess it would be better if we were all playing in the dirt rather than at a keyboard. We all might even get along just great then.
The WHOLE Point. Hi, Dozer 575. The way I see it, the WHOLE point is that experienced people almost always make the best operators and I have yet to meet an EXPERIENCED operator who didn't have at least a fair understanding of the workings of his machine. It just goes with spending enough time in the saddle to get the experience. The other WHOLE point seems to be that you have a swag of axes to grind and that most of those axes seem to relate to not liking Caterpillar for some reason or reasons best known only to yourself. That is all very well and good and you are entitled to that view. However, it has gotten a little beyond a joke now, as JeffD pointed out in the 'China Dozer' thread. Your post statistics make for a LITTLE bit of interesting reading as they seem to bear out the 'axe to grind' statement. You have talked a LOT of utter garbage about them being unstable on side slopes and otherwise dangerous. As I understand it, the high sprocket drive Cat crawlers all still pass the U.S Military side tipping standard of 45 degrees just like their oval track predeccessors. Most people will press the 'chicken switch' a fair bit before a crawler gets to that slope and most if not all crawlers, high sprocket or oval track, will slide before they get to 45 deg., usually at about 1 1/2 to 1 or roughly 32 - 35 deg.. So how are the high sprocket drives more likely to tip sideways than the oval track machines? No, I don't want to hear your answers. I've heard them all before and I still do not believe them 'cos I've had my ample butt in many seats on both types of crawler and I have the experience to tell me that your aren't telling it as it IS but rather as you wish it was. You can do what you like but I for one will not be answering any more of your posts as you seem to make a habit of making inflammatory statements and then 'crying innocent' that you didn't mean to stir the pot. That behaviour is not acceptable in my book. I would congratulate you if you did get people to think but you mostly seem to cause animosity. However, if people want to ask me what I think of some post or other that you have put up, I WILL tell them my views, honestly and bluntly, while remaining polite. You have a wonderful life, D8Bob. Best wishes. Deas Plant.
Deas, well put. I left off checking in on this forum for a month or more, I was getting sick of reading some of the crap that was posted. I don't mind reading the posts that have come from people that are obviusly a little green but do not profess to be something they aren't, but I do have a hard time with people that make out that they are experts, when the verbal diarrhea they spout does not add credence to the image they are trying to portray. I am not the CAT fanatic that I was for a good 30 years, in the last 10 years I have become very open minded (in my opinion) and acknowledge the fact that different brands have their strengths and failings and I don't believe that CAT or Komatsu have cornered the market in either category. I never think of the hi-drives as being top heavy and have never felt nervy on slopes with them, their is a lot of fresh air under some of those panels! I have never felt like I was loosing traction because of the elevated sprocket either when compared to the standard track models. I'm currently running a D6R with 600 hours on it and a new D8T. The 6 has the ACERT engine, it is the best D6 I have ever used, a good tractor, it could be better and later models probably will be, because they have to compete with the 61 komatsu, which is an awesome tractor and that is the beauty of competition, the manufactures have to keep their eye on the ball. Their I have had my say!!
Tell It Like It Is. Hi, LDK. Welcome back. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the content of some posts put up here by some (about one) people who shall be nameless because to name them would contravene site rules. I for one am through with being diplomatic with this particular individual. If I reckon a post they've put up is garbage, I'm going to say so and give my reasons for saying it. I'm not here to make a 'good feller' of myself. I'm here because people come here looking for help and I can't see any point in my spending the last 42-odd years gathering experience and information just to take it to the grave with me. For the same reason, where I see a post that I believe is incorrect, I will say so, diplomatically if possible. Where I see a post that is utter garbage, like some we could both point to, I am from here on going to say that as well. If this happens to upset a certain member with a large number in his nickname, so be it and TUFF!!!!!!! I would also point out that this particular member has irritated a LOT of people on other forums under another name and came here using a name that was not known - at the time. It's well enough known now. Just in case this said member hasn't noticed, I put my own name to all my posts, the same name that is in the phone book and on the electoral roll because I believe in putting my name to what I post. I'm not criticising anybody who chooses to use a nickname. It is simply my personal choice not to use one. So what is the point of saying the above? The point is this. IF this particular member has the courage of their convictions and truly believes that he/she is right and correct in everything that they post, are they game to come out and put their REAL name to THEIR posts? Will the REAL high sprocket drive hater please stand up?
Many moons ago ( young and stupid) i got bored pushing pans with my d9 and decided to smooth the 2.5:1 slope wow. there were more white hats around me before I could get thru with one pass. I was informed that d9s did not have baffles in the oil pan and i was in danger of locking up the motor to get my rear off of the slope and do what i was hired to do... push pans.. let the d6 clean the slope. I have since then learned many things about the inners of many machines..
Young and stupid and no baffles. Hi, WScott. Welcome to this little corner of cyberspace, a haven for machinery lovers of all races and religions, provided for us by Steve Frazier. Thank you, Steve. I dunno about no baffles in the sump/oil pan but I do know that I have spent more than just a few minutes with D9G's and H's side-cutting some fairly steep slopes and never siezed an engine or anything else on any of them. I even took an angle-blade bobtail D9G up an 8 foot vertical wall one night and, to the best of my knowledge, the oil pressure never faltered. Mind you. I did have my mind on other things at the time. Even though the D9's were higher, I always felt at least as comfortable with them on batters as I did with the D8H's and K's. I suspect that the much heavier undercarriage on the D9's may have played a fair part in their stability. Having said that, I once ran a D9G with a fairly heavy timber canopy that was about 18" higher than it really needed to be. There were 'clench' marks, about the same appearance as a deep sea squid's sucker mark, on the seat cushion a couple of times, until I got used to it. I am also firmly convinced that I have side-cut steeper batters with open-topped machines than ever I have with ROPS-equipped machines. But I was also younger when I was running the open-topped machines. 'Nuff said?
thank you for the nice welcome Maybe I should clarify my above statement. I was running sideways on the slope with the d9:beatsme Whether its true or not about the oil I dunno. I know I never did it again.
Clarification. Hi, WScott. Maybe I should clarify my above statement too. I was running sideways on the slope with the D9's as well. I spent a fair bit of time on various jobs side-cutting batters up to 1 1/2 in 1 with both D8's and D9's and never had an engine oil pressure problem or a seizure. And you're welcome to the welcome.
whaaaaaaaaaaaat You mean ive been tramuatized all this time from that... Man I was 18 and scared to death that i might lose my job.
On being scared of losing job and being traumatised Hi, WScott. All I know is that I have never had an engine seize while side-cutting batters or lost a job for side-cutting them either. And I've never been traumatised about either of the above either. Either this post is finished or it's not. Either way, I'm posting it now. And you'll either like it or you won't.
I AM believing you, thats the point I am disappointed in the fact that I was wrongly attacked. Chill out man. Ill take this to a pm.
No 'chill pills' needed. Hi, WScott. No 'chill pills' needed, Mate. That was just my warped sense of humour at work. I had put a few 'eithers' in the main part of the message, so I thought I would see how many more I could get in there. Sorry for any misunderstanding. You may take the first two sentences of my signature as my true intent to you.
3 things first i love this board. spent my life bending wrenches on smaller stuff. always loved heavy equipment i have used some of it for a friend for the last 10 years. it is a lot of fun but his work is not as demanding as what i am reading here. if i had started 50 yrs. ago i believe i would still just be a lever puller. this is a great site and i have learned a lot that i have been doing wrong in just a few short weeks. keep up the good work.
Yair...testing...
Started reading this thread, got to the third page and found a Personal Sore Spot. Had to Rant so I could Read On. One of our Foreman types was complaining (and I don't blame him a BIT! BT,DT, myself) about the younger guys having no Common Sense, generally. Around here in East Kentucky the strips have FLATLY REFUSED to train anyone except a Boss's Son or Brother since 1`978. Since coal is the only Industry worthy of the name here, that slams the door in the faces of a whole generation, myself included. They just continue working the Old Hands they trained in the early Seventies til they die or get disabled. In the meantime, the kids Give Up because they KNOW BETTER than to even ASK for a job, and sell pills to make a buck. And the Old Hands Pass On, and take ALL that Invaluable Knowledge To The GRAVE. This sets my rear AFLAME, because it is a STUPID WASTE on both ends, a Waste of a kid's Potential and Life, and a Waste of an Old Hand's Hard-Won Knowledge, and therefore HIS life, as well. Now the strips CAN'T get Trainees because they've said NO far too long, now nobody can pass a drug test, and everyone who could has LEFT the country.Except me, of course. So all you Old Hands, I know, we're Major Pains in the butt, but we're all the Fresh Meat you got. Who taught YOU your job? Well, that should show you that TEACHING is ALSO a part of the job. You've MADE your Reps and Livings, now Pass It On to the Next Gen! Where will the Next Generation of Dirt Wizards come from if YOU Old Merlins don't TRAIN them?! The Knowledge and Experience locked inside those hammer heads is MUCH more valuable than your company's assets, because it's Priceless and IRREPLACEABLE. THINK on it a minute before you side-step the decelerator. These senseless, ignorant KIDS are YOUR LEGACY. You take Pride in your work, well, you best be seeing to your Legacy, cause think what people will say when you DON'T Teach: 'Man, that youngster on that 9 just SUCKS! He can't even steer with the blade! And he's trying to cut the whole hill to grade all at once! I thought ol' So-and-So TRAINED him! He must not have been as Good as we thought he was, that kid sure is sorry!' Personally, I have the First Two, I know the machine, I can push the shot, scale the wall, run the fill, build roads, none WELL, because I can't get the CHANCE to be Coached Up by an Old Hand who I can Look Up To and Aspire to. But I CAN hook my winch to another and Head Over the Side, pushing brush. I have the NERVE, that's no Problem, I just substitute Calculated Insanity when I get scared, and Keep Pushin'. But I don't have the Mindset, the Patience, for Yo-yoing. After I hit the sixth stump in five feet I get Ill, after 30 minutes I'm mad enough to bite the heads off Grade 8 bolts. That's why I'm the Lowboy Driver now. But ALL the Pushers, my Boss included, would rather have ME on the ledge holding them than anyone they know. But I need to acquire the Third Requisite to get a full-time job on a strip. And that's IMPOSSIBLE. I ain't kin to anyone, and I have no Suction. No job, no Education. Catch-22. So all you Bosses and other Old Hands, look at it from another viewpoint. If you teach these boys AND GIRLS the RIGHT way to work, they'll make a much FINER tombstone than ANY stone-cutter could EVER do. Likewise, if you keep it to yourself, when you die, you are TRULY DEAD and Gone. But if you Pass It On, that Knowledge will NEVER die, and so you will become Immortal. That's why I Purely LOVE these boards, ACME, ACMOC, and this one, and guys like Deas Plant and Old Magnet. Oh, Sure, the computer is Taking Over. Fellers, the computer is a MECHANICAL BRAIN. It BREAKS DOWN. What do you do THEN, if no one kicked and cussed you and MADE you LEARN to Do It RIGHT? Heh heh, I guess you just Shut 'er Down, grab your slop bucket and go to The House. Oh YEAH, now, THAT'S something to be PROUD of. I'm Too Old, now, nobody is going to give me the chance to FINALLY Learn and Earn, my life has been wasted in Trucks, and scraping to keep the lights on, or a car running, or a job fit to get up and go to, but I never sold or did dope. That's why my newest vehicle is an '89, and my kids live in a house that's good enough to store hay in. But it was always my Dream to be an Ace dozerman, hoeman, loaderman, and loose-line skinner, just like MY Old Man. I think I've almost made the SuperTrucker part on my own, because I can now look at a place, KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I or anyone else CAN NOT put a truck in there, and DO IT ANYWAY. Hey, what boy worth his salt don't want to be AT LEAST As Good As His Old Man? But I'll never make the Dozer Ace part, I won't live long enough.... HOWEVER, if I ever get the Chance, I WILL be all over it like yellow paint on a D10. Sorry for the long post, but this subject REALLY sticks in my craw. KY Jim
After finishing up the thread, Yes, an operator NEEDS to have a good understanding of his/her machine, PERIOD. The Early Detection aspect ESPECIALLY. Save your Boss Big Bucks and he won't Go Broke, therefore you still have a job. Yes, the DOZER will be your Primary Instructor always, but a Good Coach will make you GOOD, and much more quickly. The excuse I've always heard against trainees is 'It wastes too much fuel, and they break too much stuff.' Yeah, Right, like the Old Hands were Aces the day they got their first job. I went to Diesel Mechanic school when I was too young to get a Drivin' Job, JUST so I could tell the mechanic what to bring when I broke down, if not fix it myself. That was ONE thing I did RIGHT. Always had an advantage, growing up in the same house with an Old Hand. Dad's one of them 'Quiet Types,' but he opens up to questions about equipment. High-track or low-track, I love 'em ALL, and can't tell much difference. I'm glad the high-tracks HAVE high tracks, tho, because it would be a LONG, tough climb up to the cab without 'em. I'm Baffled about the 'No Baffles' tearing. Don't 9G and H's have dual oil pumps, one in each end? And pushing around the hill would just make the oil puddle in one side or the other. I thought they had swinging pickups? I think someone just wanted to hand out an @$$-tearing. Never heard of any silliness like that around here. KY Jim
Mr Scott, I appreciate your situation.... Ouftits usually want a pushcat available to push whenever a scraper shows up, any time spent doing anything else is seen as a waste of time. Running something as heavy as a 9 on a slope trimming, when it's supposed to be pushing scrapers, is probably seen as a waste of time and undercarriage life by the employer in question. Cushion blades aren't ideally suited for that task, anyway, although they can do it. (I've done it too.) Probably this is one of those outfits that would rather have you sit there for 20 minutes doing nothing, with scrapers on a 3 mile haul, than try to "help out". :Banghead Just on the off chance a pan shows up and has to wait for the pushcat. Especially with single engine pans, that are just about useless without loading assistance. Awfully hard on differentials trying to self load a 631, my outfit found out the hard way....what does the mechanic know... Then again, maybe they look at it like if the 9 were to go down for some reason, all their production would be lost. Just trying to look at things from both sides. Believe me, I've been there. I usually screw up worst when trying to do a "good deed"! See my avatar, for instance...
Yair... Interesting. A little heated at times but very entertaining. I'm a newbie on this computer carry on but have probably around 40.000 thousand hours seat time so, for what its worth an observation:- The best finish dozer operator I ever saw was a bloke who started off with Cases but I think ended up with a little Cat. His office was the bar of the Palm Beach pub on the Gold Coast and all he professed to know about dozers was you turn the key to start it and this here lever makes the blade go up and down....and angle and tilts it if you need to. He had no understanding whatever of his contrarotating track system on the Case....only that it worked well most of the time but cost him lots of money when he had to pay to fix it. What that bloke couldn't do with spreading top soil and general finish work on batters and such wasn't worth doing. He was exeptional and shows you can't make generalisations as to what makes a "good operator".....I think he knew how to use a grease gun but thats about as far as it went.
I suppose if you are running Komatsu junk this would be the case, but as far as I know in over 40 years of equipment operation if they can't run over rocks, spin their wheels occasionally or come to a complete stop before changing directions they may as well stay on the dealers lot 'cuz they are no damned good anyway.
Scrub Puller, there's Exceptions to every rule, except those made by God. KY Jim
I thought I was the only one in this world that felt this way. I skipped to here from about page 5. There is wayyy too much good information that dies with the old timers. They whine about the younger generation not knowing anything, but will not teach us.
It's not always the fault of the oldtimers. Teaching requires having a student willing to learn. I find that now a days it is common for the young operators hat size to go up a few notches as soon as you put them on a big expensive piece of equipment. After a month or so on a machine they are nine foot tall and bullet proof and any attempt to help them with advise will get you told where to get off old man. This usually ends up with them being the recepient of daily butt chewings from the boss and lots of smiles from me. I am always willing to help out a new operator, even to the point of standing up to the boss and telling him I told him to do it that way, which usually stops the butt chewing right there. I will not however be disrespected while trying to help someone out. At that point, they are on their own. There are some good young operators out there that are eager to learn and I love working with them, but sadly, a lot are not.
this old man isnt even a good lever puller. i have seen this in other professions as well. well said Galute
Yeah, that's a good point too. I work alone right now because I haven't found anybody that is capable (or willing) of learning what they need to know to work here. Wish I could find somebody that was just like me when I was 18 years old.
Galute, I've seen THAT, too, and never fear, I jump them punks, too! An outfit has a LOT of cash tied up in the Iron and fuel alone, and if you ain't MAN enough to leave your little Attitude and the Foolish part of your Pride AT HOME then you don't need a Job, you need a keeper. When you set that dinner bucket on there and turn that key, it ain't about YOU anymore. It's About Production, and ANYTHING that cuts Production, like Too Proud to Take Coaching/Assistance, Too Conceited to Make Mistakes, or Smarter Than The Boss has no place on the Hill. Or In The Pit. Perhaps my own conceit/Pride would be a Positive, as I want to be The Best, regardless of the money. But being The Best is a lot MORE than being good with the machine. You have to know the Job, too, and a good overview of the 'Big Picture' is good, too. I say this because I have worked for too many people who refused to tell workers any more than what was required by their particular job, and this is a GUARANTEE for Misinterpretation and Obfuscation. The more I know about the Big Picture, the more likely I am to CORRECTLY interpret the Bosses Orders. I like this, because I fly Plumb OFF when I screw up, especially when it's a Communications problem. If my Buddy screws up that's O.K., he's Only Human, we'll try it again. When I screw up, Oh, Man, it's Katy Bar the Door! Because as we all know, screwups cost Time and Fuel, which equals Money, and make us look like excrement. Well, you can't be The Best and look like a turd. KY Jim