Have any of you came across this problem with the C6.4 engines?, also came across on the C4.4 and C6.6 engines on D4k tractors and 930H Wheel Loaders The engine timing is correct, the speed/timing sensors read perfect, no error codes, filters are new, fuel supply good, for those equipment where i can read the fuel supply pressure reads around 17~19 psi while cranking, yet the Fuel Rail Pressure reads 0 PSI On the ET i can check the pump solenoid and it reads OK, i can hear it activate and deactivate during this test, injector tests also proves injectors are working fine. What baffles me the most was the reason i had to troubleshoot this excavator was because it took a while to start at first, and when start the operator said it shuts down intermittently, now one of the timing sensor at the flywheel wasn't reading and after checking the harness was at fault, after repairing it the engine started fine after one turnover. One day later the operator called and said it wasn't starting at all. After checking again the timing sensor on the fuel rail pump was not reading. After disassembling around the pump to get to the sensor the harness and connector was also broken, I also noticed the sensor seemed a bit loose and that it too was broken! Now to remove an entire pump to change this sensor is no easy feat. I did find a short-cut to remove that broken sensor and replace a new one but i shortened the bolt and shaved half it's head off, also modified my wrench to work in that fine space and it worked like a charm. Everything on the ET was top-notch, all the sensors reading, no errors, but while cranking 0 fuel rail pressure = No Start. Long story short I was told to change the injector pump After changing the pump the engine started fine, fuel pressure etc. read great. But it's strange, i mean do these pumps just fail without any notice? One day the engine started fine, next day it's dead.
I had a machine that lost a pump in forty hours. Lost the second one at 75 hours on the same machine but that was due to the gear not torqued correctly. I have seen pumps go and injectors go. I had one that all tested good but would not fire. All solenoids checked out. Replaced the injector pump as i had 0 rail pressure. Finally replaced the full set of injectors and bingo. Must have had one or two by passing pressure.
I've seen the same, pumps working fine one minute and dead the next. However the most common failure is wearout over time with the normal symptom that the engine starts first time when cold but is difficult to start when warm. As the wear progresses the engine becomes more difficult to start from cold until it reaches a point where it won't start at all. On the smaller common rail engines the pressure relief valve is also very sensitive to wearout and failure literally from one day to the next. If I had no rail pressure like the OP the first thing I would have been looking at would be the PRV, followed by the injectors, and lastly the pump. Regarding Caterpillarmech's post I seem to recall that we had some blanks made up and then used a portapower to pressurize the rail to test for leaking injectors. Although TBH if one or two out of six injectors are leaking it won't be long before the others go the same way, so if injector leakage is identified it's probably better to simply change all six in one hit and have done with it than to faff about trying to find which one is leaking.
My 320dl did the exact same thing two months ago. Changed out the pump and up she fired. Has just under 9k hours.
Wow, well this was reassuring, thank you all for the replies, I've just came across a service magazine or "Special Instruction" Media Number "REHS5030-00" within the SIS that shows how to service the check valves and flush the head of the pump. I've done this already today with the old pump. We have another 320D with this same problem so i'll try this "serviced" pump again and see if anything works, i'll reply with the results.
So.. is the pump wear accelerated by the lack of lubricity in low sulphur fuels? I think I will continue our regimen of adding Howe's to our fuel. We have a 320DL, 2011 model with 3600 hours on it. Faultless so far, but it is young yet.
It's certainly possible, having mostly worked in places where the fuel sulphur was at time over 2% we never seemed to experience the level of seized injectors, etc, that others in more "developed" countries were reporting.
Fuel additives are one of those things that it are very hard to quantify the return on what you pay for them, until a pump goes down and the repair cost and downtime are calculated.
Call me old fashioned, but I add a few gallons of engine oil, atf, hydraulic oil, whatever is around really into my auxiliary fuel tank. Its a 90 gallon tank in my box, figure it adds the goodness that has been taken out. Did it back in the UK too, only on a smaller scale and directly into my Ivecos tank. Couldn't tell you if it does any favours or not but I've never had a pump go down to date on my stuff.
I'm thinking you won't want to do that with the Tier 4 stuff, probably stuff up the DPF or the catalytic... finicky bastids anyway, hard to say what they'll do with anything but EPA spec fuel?
Ya Wouldn't dare pull that stunt with new stuff!
I had a similar problem on a John Deere 850. Pulled the pump, had it rebuilt, put back on, in time, would not start. After checking several sensors and wiring and finding nothing, the machine started and ran great for about 3 days, then machine quit, would not start back. Changed engine speed sensor and it was on the road again!! Then however, the gear slipped on the bolts of the fuel pump and machine would not start the next day. I would recheck my pump timing just to be sure. I would have never thought a 1/4 of an inch would cause them not to run but it will!!
hi there, just wanted to say thank you to you guys for the information ive been able to learn from on this site. please bear with me if this a bit long-winded, but i was recently asked to look at a 320D myself, belongs to the mine my company is contracted to. long story short it got progesively worse at starting, then died at their workshop. several mechanics took their turn and failed. when my turn came, i found the rail relief valve was blocked with debris. after some cleaning and clearing of codes, went to crank and batteries were flat so got them put on charge. now this is the part that agitates me, the very next day went to crank the machine and do my clean out, i found another set of mechanics on it... ex dealer mechanics from the next town. i was fumingbut kept my cool n watched them, they swapped out the injectors which were also full of dirt.. just stuck the new injectors n it fired. not exactly sure on the details but the mine changed the fuel pump and all 6 injectors, it started then died. not to start again. this lot couldnt figure out what went wrong, condeming the ecm.. so the mine called me back. i hooked up the et and found 6 active codes all of which were generated at the exact same time, all to do with the sensors on the engine, including the 5vpower supply to said sensors. comms to the ecms all good. went on the sis and got some troubleshooting guides because im not a fundi with these, did some digging and found when i unplugged the low fuel pressure sensor, the 5v power came back and the rail sensor was working again. so now down to the other 4, so got the codes to change from -3 to -4 to make sure ecm n harness ok, then to check, plugged each one into rail sensor as all the connectors the same, elminating any issue with ecm i hope.. my question is will these sensors cause a no-start condition, as im not sure. sensors are the engine oil sensor, the intake manifold sensor, low fuel pressure sensor and differential fuel pressure sensor so now am waiting for new sensors and i hope that is the issue and not the ecm. it is difficult because so many people have had their finger in the pie so to speak. sorry again for the long speech but i felt a bit of background might help. oh, other thing i forgot was i eventually found out they were using quickstart on it. i also found out they were shaking the filters clean to get it to go.. hence the need for new pump. oh aaannd.. the guys who fitted new pump n injectors never cleaned fuel system. . still same old filters...
howdy.. so i have received the new sensors, even changed the engine speed sensor for good measure.. all codes gone and i now have pressure readings, and when i cranked it the thing fired up. was smoking a fair bit, but chocked it up to when they changed injectors.. i switched it off to go fetch the ET connector and that was it.. no more to wake up. i have found that the rail pump is not pushing up to the correct PSI, or at least according to the SIS. its supposed to be about 3626 PSI according to the troubleshooting section, im getting 1800 at a push - after 30 seconds of cranking. i did get it to 2400 or so and it fired once, the pressure dropped to 700 and wouldnt come back up. things i have done;- 1, checked the fuel lines for restriction, also checked for air being drawn into the system, nothing happening. 2, ensured the low pressure fuel sysem pressure is good (25PSI). also restricted the return n had it to 60 while cranking. no difference. 3, checked valve lash. a few were a bit out but not by miles. 4, checked air restriction. had the pipe to the turbo completely off. 5, checked blowby. seems good. suction from engine squeezed pipes flat when i blocked the intake with my hand, so figure crompression is ok. 6, pulled one of the new injectors to see if it was atomising and nothing is going on there. 7, found the rail pressure to be very low and takea forever to build up. it got to 2400 once and fired once, whereupon it dropped to 700 almost immediately. 8, did solenoid test on both injector solenoidss and rail pump solenoid, came back good. even pulled the rail solenoid to see if it was actuating. all appears to be working. 9, thought about setting fire to it.. dont have enough saved for the legal action lol. 10, checked the rail pressure relief valve, found it was new, replaced it with old one anyway, tried again, made no difference. things i have assumed;- 1, since it ran before when the other guys did their thing with the injectors & pump, that the rail pump timing is good. 2, minimal fuel filter restriction as differential pressure is 1 PSI, therefore secondary filters still ok. bypassed the water separator tho as its the only filter that still says CAT.. and fuel wasnt flowing so great when i removed the pipe. 3, nothing is what they tell you. unfortunately to get to the timing gears requires lots of stripping... and there are no new filters in stock 4, since all the codes went on their merry way when i changed the sensors, the ECM is good. there it is, i think ive included everything. there is a snapshot of results from the last crank i gave it for the day & the max values obtained. please help. i wanna say it is the rail-pump or the pump solenoid, but its all new, not even two hours running time.. difficult to condem new parts without a definite way of testing it.
Firstly the rail relief valves often wear out. I'd suggest junking the existing one even though you cleaned it and fit new if you can get hold of one. Next up get some new fuel filters on it right the way through, OEM ones if possible although in your location I doubt there would be any other options anyway. Try removing the line where the pump feeds to the cylinder head and then hook it up to an external pump (an electrical one works really well but a hand one will also work if you have someone really pounding the handle), remove the rocker covers and then try to pump the rail pressure up. Monitor the rail pressure using ET or a gauge and at the same time look for external leaks. If you can get the pressure up in the rail using an external pump then it would appear the injectors are good. Then move to the pump. Blank off the pump outlet using something that lets you get a pressure gauge or sensor hooked up to it, crank the engine on the starter and watch the pressure. I'm not sure if it works on this engine but if you get ET hooked up with the engine stopped usually you'll get one or more messages in a set of boxes at the top or bottom of the ET screen such as "Engine Stopped", "Injection Disabled", & "Engine Cold Mode" to name but a few. Keep your eye on those message as you're cranking and especially the Injection Disabled one. If that does not disappear during cranking then the fires will not light whatever you do. Usually the reason is that the Actual Pressure is not reaching the Desired Pressure. You used to be able to go into the ET Configuration screen and could actually alter the Desired Pressure down below what was initially on the screen. I'm not sure if you can do it with the latest versions of ET but it's worth a try. If you can at least get the engine running you can then actually diagnose it. AFAIK if you lose the 5V sensor supply to the principal engine sensors then she won't fire up.
well concerning a D6N Tractor with the C6.6 Engine, heard injectors were changed out, started once but on the 2nd attempt back to "engine crank no start", results are similar to what mrapples posted there, the only way it'll start is when we applied the quick-start fluid through the air filter intake, as soon as the engine gets that faster turn-over it'll start right up and idles and throttles up like no problem existed. The supervisor has a new relief valve locked away so i'll ask him for that to try out tomorrow and see if it'll solve this problem. From the amount of dirt I've seen from pouring out the tertiary filter i'm pretty sure the pump got contaminated, it's really down to poor maintenance and poor troubleshooting. As soon as the tractor came in mechanics just went ahead and changed injectors before checking anything. Ah well, i was thinking if we can get the engine to turn over faster if that will help the pump to build the pressure for starting, at least 220 rpm while cranking, but I've checked another D6N; as the rpm reached 180 rpm the rail pressure was well above 4000 psi and it started in one second. Hope you get through mrapples, thank you again Nige for contributing, you taking on any apprentice?!, i'll try the new relief and get back here.
hi mrappels The same pump is fitted to the 6.6 and the 6.4 the 6.6 has no key in the pump shaft and the gear has been known to slip(lot of warranty calls here) your engine is the 6.4 and SHOULD have a woodruff key between the gear and the shaft .is it possible the other guys have left it out? and the pump timing has now moved these engines disable speed/timing faults while cranking so may not have logged a speed/timing fault as yet. to confirm go to the no start screen in ET status groups and check for speed/timing signal detected. you also need a minimum of 150rpm to start. the ECM uses the fuel pump sensor for starting, so if bad you can swap sensors over between primary and secondary and retry to start have you cleared logged faults yet, if not could you post please Also have you checked injector return leak, if excessive could be faulty injector/s If the fuel system is as dirty as you said all this is a waste of time, the tolerances in these pumps is down to micron level and ANY dirt will kill them very quickly, if they are not primed properly will cause the pump plungers to scuff also Mark
thats what happened when i diagnosed it, - the 5v sensor supply was disabled due to a faulty sensor, in fact all but the rail sensor were not working. ive replaced all the sensors and there are no codes. i was watching the popup window and no codes featured. thats also why i included yhe injector disabled status on the et screen in case i missed it somehow. i will see what i can manufacture although tbh resources are limited to bits of scrap. like i said earlier tho, the injectors, the rail(which includes the prv) and the rail pump are all new. thanks for the ideas on where n how to test, will let you know what i find in due course. if you a have a copy of the latest version please could i ask u for it. not sure if mine is new lol, as its off the 2008b SIS will also see if i can alter the desired pressure. many thanks nige!
i am sure that poor maintenance is the beginning of the problem here too. havent tried quick start aas im not a fan of it. the problem is every person i talk to has a different story of what has happened and been happening. the fuel coming out of the bleed screw is quite clean by all appearances, but im not a micsroscope lol, and if the damage is done then its done, i just need to identify the damaged components asap, then move on to cleaning out the fuel system like i wanted to before they fitted the new parts. this one takes forever to build pressure, and i.ve rigged it to see if theres any leakage from the prv which didnt flow at all, so i believe the problem it elsewhere. one question, does the rail continue to hold pressure after its cranked and been switched off on your good machine? i hope you come right too. been given 2 days to identify the problem.
Hi mark, thanks for the input. without stripping the front of the engine i have no way of verifying that the woodruff is there. i do have the old pump now, it does have a slot, and there is no key in it, so hopefully thats fine. cranking speed is there in the picture, i was getting 170rpm, 200 when i first put new batteries in. both sensors are pickina speed, also had them on the ET screen, but it was too long to fit in the picture.a new sensor was also fitted with the new pump,(think it comes as a kit) as the old pump still has its tming sensor. all codes have been attended to and cleared. no status flags pop up when cranking either. injector return leakage test is a bit tricky, plus they are all new, i will try nige's idea of pressurising the rail circuit to test if they hold, as i feel its more likely to be the rail pump. i know its a waste of time, its frustrating having to work on the backstep of someone else's poor workmanship. my goal now is to identify what is broken(again) so they can order & replace. thanks for your input
plus we get to bill them for labour so will just keep my head down and crack on! oh, and its invaluable experience when stuff like this happens, even is its tedious.
by design the system loses pressure are 60 sec with engine off Mark
while the engine was idling the pressure read around 8200 psi and as soon as it shut down it gradually decreased to 6000 psi to 100 psi about 12 seconds, maintained 20~40 psi after long periods of shut-down.
That 20-40psi reading is most likely the sensor. Because it has to read max pressures of up to 10,000psi it's likely it will not be 100% accurate at the bottom end of the scale. You could probably prove it by removing the sensor when it reads the 20-40 value and there won't be any pressure at all there.
thanks, just wanted to know how quick it should drop off when i isolated and pumped it up. that has to be something to do with the injector leak off right? so a quick update on the goings on.. i spent the morning looking for a pump, i found an old hydraulic pump for a bead spreader that had been discarded, fixed it n replaced the missing bits with what i could find, and got it working, then isolated the rail from the pump, & pumped like crazy. i got up to 3400psi with effort. i isolated & fitted a pressure gauge to the rail pump & it looks really good. went straight to 4300psi after a few turns. so i removed the prv & rigged some fittings to fit it to my pressure gauge & pump. it got to 3500 or so before it popped the poorly mated fitting. no leak off through the prv. the problem by elimination has to be the injectors.. there is nothing else left lol.. any comments?
If you can only raise the rail pressure to 3400psi with a lot of effort yet the pump pressure flies up to 4300psi within a couple of turns of the crank I'd be directing my attention to the rail side of things if it was me. Don't lose sight of the fact that it might not be the injectors, you may have a crack or something similar in a rail passage in the head. Did you do the rail test with the rocker covers off as I suggested..? Sometimes the leak is so obvious when you pressurize the rail that it literally hits you in the face - the leaking oil that is ....... We developed that test when the HEUI engines first came out to get over the Catch-22 situation that you can't properly diagnose them if they won't start and they won't start if the pressure won't build up enough but it's almost impossible to figure out where the pressure loss is taking place at cranking speed. On the V8 & V12 motors we would even pressurize the heads separately to identify if one head was leaking and the other wasn't. Once the engine is running things become a sight easier. Did you try messing with your ET in the Config screen to see whether or not you could reduce the Desired Injection Actuation Pressure..? Sometimes dropping the DIAP even by 500psi using ET would be enough to get a reluctant engine (one that was building rail pressure but just not high enough) to start. Just thinking out loud but are the new injectors genuine Cat ones..? Where are the old ones that were removed..? Did someone maybe fcuk up a seal while they were installing the new injectors, or is there simply a bad injector among the 6 new ones..?
i did indeed crank it with the cover off and didnt notice anything untoward. the injectors are individually supplied by a pipe from the rail, so i am struggling to visualise a problem with a crack in the head like on the heui systems. i have the old injectors so will play with them this morning and see what pressure values i get by doing that, and move on to the excavator this afternoon. actually we had that very problem on our d6 not 2 weeks ago, would start when cold but refused once it got hot. oil was too thin to create enough pressure to overcome the leak. we did the exact same thing, cranking with the cover off, and got baptised in oil it was such a bad leak. resealed the two leaking injectors and its been behaving ever since. i wonder how many people condemned the heui pump before finding the problem in the tappet cover lol. will keep you updated. thanks again oh P.S. the injectors look like theyre cat. they dont have cat on them but neither do the old ones, only the serial numbers etc
Sorry, my mind was thinking HEUI where the HP oil passage is inside the head itself. If the injectors are supplied individually from a pipe from the rail try blanking things off close to where the entry point in the head is and pump the pressure up and see what happens. Blank the fuel return off as well if you have to. Then move your blank(s) further away down the line and keep repeating the test. When you get to the point of testing the injectors blank all the injector connections except one and connect an injector to that point, then repeat the pressurization test. Then install a different injector to that same connection and re-test until you have tested each injector individually hooked up to one specific point. Hopefully one test will result in a much slower raise in pressure than everything else which will point you to your problem.
thats actually what i came up with, well, sort of after reading mark250'spost on the leakage test, and then yours about how much effort i had to put in to pressurise the injector rail, i decided to make up some fittings to plumb in the injectors. taking the leakage test from a different perspective,because in all honesty, that leak-off pipe is hard to get to, plus it doesn't actually tell you WHICH injector is messing around. today was D-Day, so im glad i am done. i know ideally replacing all six is the way to go. but I needed to know, for experience sake. and because i dont have new injectors. lol i removed & tested each one. till i found the sob, pouring out diesel.. replaced it with one i'd tested in the morning, put everything back in order and "wham, bam, thank you mam" she started. i will give thwm my report tomorrow with a recommendation on a full system cleanout like what should have been done, plus a few short interval service kits. and let them know they'll probably need new injectors at some point again. thank you all for your help and guidance, it set me on the right path. will attach some pics of what went on. one of how it should look and one of how badly it was leaking.
Success stories are always welcome. Well Done .......!! Treat yourself to a few cold Castles tonight. In the words of Mr Spock - "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
haha, thanks nige. i think Sherlock Holmes said that too haha. and it rings so true. I would also like to make sure that i thank mark250, shingamix and everyone else that contributed to the post. this forum is awesome:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
my pleasure to help I do have a lot of info on these engines if you ever need anything please ask. one of my old bosses is from the cat dealer in south Africa Regards mark
Mr A. One thing I have to ask. Back in your post 13 on Page 1 you mentioned about other mechanics having swapped all 6 injectors when they worked on it. The impression I got was that the injectors they installed were new but maybe that was an incorrect assumption...? That's why I was racking my brains trying to figure out other reasons for the pressure in the rail not raising sufficiently when the engine was cranked. It would not be unknown but certainly unusual for a new injector to be bad straight out of the box.
you and me both. after presenting my findings/recommendations to the mine section engineer i learned that they were 'reconditioned'.. but tbh, i have no way of telling which was there first/last.. i did hear someone talk about them fiddling with injectors when it developed the sensor issue so they could have mixed them any which way.. how far true it is i am not sure. and there's no record of the serial numbers fitted. i could connect the ET to see, but the other technicians also had an ET... all i know know - and its happened a few times now, is that take nothing for granted when someone has been fiddling before you..
will do mark, thank you very much
Hey guys, anyone got advise for getting hold of the trim files for the following injectors? I am replacing the 6 injectors on a 320DL and the injectors came with CD's for the trim files and 3 were ok but can't find the trim files. Its for a C6.4 engine. Just for the sake of explaining: the diggers takes likes about 4-5 attempts with about 6-10 seconds of cranking until the engines starts. ran a ET on it and saw the pressure dropping off within 10 seconds to zero. Cleaned out the relief valves and tried not luck. So took the injectors out and 5 of them were pissing out diesel everywhere! The engine starts now on one go pretty easy but I would be happy if i copy all 6 trim files correctly. One f the local Cat guys told me that the ECU learns the injector after running around 100hrs but not sure if thats true. His advise was to just install them and forget about the trim files but i don't wanna take any chances. Thanks! 2s0284485885, 2s02844619FA, 2s02848352b7
One more thing.........engine is a tad bit smoky that it was before so burning a bit more fuel i think now. Could the 3 injectors that are not paired be the culprit?
You may have already thought of this but if you installed new injectors bought from your local Cat dealer then why not go back and ask them for help officially..? E-trim numbers have been round for years on 3500's, and have expanded over the year not only to include more engine models but they are now more complicated to install. However your question about smoke is most likely related to the fact you have a number of injectors in the engine that are not correctly trimmed if my experience is anything to go by. Will then engine run without them being trimmed..? Well you already know the answer to that, but your smoke is probably an indication that the 3 injectors that are not yet trimmed are a hair off. You really need to get them all up to snuff for fuel economy if for no other reason.
Hi Nige Thanks for the quick reply. I too suspect the fact that I was only able to trim 3 of the 6 is the issue. The injectors are not off of Cat but a Mitsubishi parts guy I normally get parts off of. They are originals as far as I can tell and the guy I got them from I have dealt with for a while so he's quite honest. There's a lot of remanufactured dodgy injectors around for like a 100 bucks but these are good. So unfortunately can't go to the local cat dealer for help on this and they charge a lot more. Hence why I thought this would work. And the engine starts immediately now so the main issue is cured. But I guess I have to get hold of the trim files for the other 3 injectors now. My guy is trying to get the correct trim files for them so hopefully he'll come through. Thanks guys!
Hey Mrapples you still around?
Hey zimbo, its been a while, but yeah i'm still around. my location has changed slightly. whats up?
Just wanted to have a yarn with you, are you still in Zim? Im originally from Bulawayo. Have you a contact number (whatsap)
will pm you, internet hasn't been the greatest
You all failed to mention injector pump solenoid test with Cat ET to determine if it's good or not. I am having a starting problem with same 320D sn BWZ02250 with a C6.4 engine sn GDC13710 I have an active code of 1779- 6 Fuel Rail #1 Pressure Valve Solenoid : Current Above Normal that means a need to change the pump cos it's not a serviceable part. we placed order hoping when it's ready it will fix the starting problem. I like all your troubleshooting contributions. this indeed a learning site.
Injector disable will be on if the engine shut down switch is on. off it and disconnect your ET and connect back it will be off. i know i'm replying to a long time post but it could help
I need to know the reading of rail pressure in engine C6.4 caterppilar no start parameters
I think it’s 400bar. We used to spray a bit of cold start assist fluid or some petrol in the air cleaner and fires up. But only for emergencies. Usually needed new injector or in some cases pump as well.