My 330cl has a C9 Cat engine and runs fine , don't burn any oil and has plenty of power . My problem is that it doesn't want to start. It spins and spins and doesn't fire . when it first happened , I was thinking compression as I got about 10,000 hrs on it now but I don't think that's the problem . I can start it the coldest day in the winter and sometimes the first flick of the key on a hot summers day but other times it will not start at all . I had the Cat service people come and do the computer checks with the lap top etc , The bitch started every time for them and they found no faults in anything....computers . fuel , injectors pumps etc etc . I replaced the check valve at the back of the head but no difference . QUESTION , Why will it start with a little spray of quick start ? It has new batterys , new starter and spins plenty fast , What is the line that goes from the front of the cyl head near the water pump and goes and screws into the ECM that's bolted on the side of the engine?. There is also what looks like some kind of pressure switch in this line too . So is it fuel running in this line or motor oil? I thinks it has something to do with this pressure switch and when the pressure builds up it trips the injectors to fire ? Just looking for opinions of what could be going on , especially where the cat dealer found no faults .
Dirty oil will make them hard to start. There is a plug on the harness you can change for different viscosity oils you are using. The line to the ECM is fuel for cooling it. Later Bob
Thanks Bob, again lol . I have changed the motor oil and filters a few times but still didn't changed anything . So would a heavier viscosity help the starting ? I know the motor oil is used for firing the injector but I think it's the electronic part of the injectors is not getting a signal to let the fuel in/out. I know very little about this and just trying to grasp what's happening . makes me wonder though why The Cat dealer never found a fault code or something just a tad off making the engine hard to start . Why it starts with a shot of quick start tells me there is no fuel or electronics is not being activated there but why is it that the engine fires right after the quick start ?
Thick oil makes harder starting but it's consistent. Intermittant leads me to think wiring but that should set a code. I wonder if the HUEI pump is failing? Some of them have bearing problems I think. Later Bob
What viscosity oil are you using right now..? With 10k hours on the engine I would bet money that the injectors are starting to fail. Have they ever been replaced..? As Bob says maybe the HEUI pump is also bad. The way these engines fire up all depends on the hydraulic pressure generated in the injector operation circuit by the HEUI Pump. The ECM calculates a "Desired Injection Actuation Pressure" depending on various factors and compares that value to the Actual Injection Actuation Pressure as the engine is spinning over on the starter. Only when the Actual pressure exceeds the Desired pressure do the electronics come out to play and fire up the injectors. Until that point there will be no smoke from the chimney. I suspect that your issue is internal leakage somewhere in the injection actuation circuit (possibly injectors, possibly HEUI pump) and what happens when you give it a whiff of ether it just turns over a hair faster on the starter and as a result the HEUI pressure comes up just a fraction more than it did with the starter alone which is enough to make the Actual pressure exceed the Desired pressure and away she goes. I predict the problem will only get worse until you reach a point where even ether won't get it going.
I have a 324DL that acted like this for sometime and ended up not starting at all. Turned out to be the ecm going bad and losing fuel settings but not doing it all the time.
Can you explain more about that plug?
My 330cl has difficulty to start, it’s cranking, but not willing to start. I had a issue showing “low engine oil pressure”, I got a new senor from CAT, but when I change it, it shows the same error, after google the problem realized that the distribution of the new part is different from the old part, then I change the distribution, the that “low engine oil pressure” gone. After running for 10minutes, engine stopped by itself without any warning, then he don’t want to start
That’s how I changed the distribution
What you have in your hand is a 3-pin Deutsch connector. Without any more context (for example what it connects to and why you pulled the pins out of it) it's impossible to say more about what it does. Why not start with a few basics like ........... Machine Serial Number, how many hours on the machine, engine oil pressure sensor Part Number (old & new), has it ever had an injection pump or injectors replaced...? BTW I love the optimism of a Low Oil Pressure warning - must be the sensor.
My 330CL Serial number is: CYA00557, working hours:15409. Now the main issue is the engine is cranking but not firing, when is cranking the engine oil pressure raise from 3 psi to 8 psi, but it’s not starting
Still need the answers to ...... More info regarding the electrical connector in your photo. engine oil pressure sensor Part Number (old & new), has the engine ever had an injection pump or injectors replaced...? The engine oil pressure (8psi during cranking) that you see in the lubrication system is NOT what operates the fuel injection system. That is operated by a high-pressure hydraulic pump. The Injection Actuation Pressure (IAP) sensor measures the pressure from that pump and is the signal from that sensor that activates the electronic system to fire the injectors during cranking. The attached document will walk you through how the system functions, the IAP sensor is #9 on the first illustration.
Checking
Checking
Engine oil pressure sensor part number ld 161-1705, new one161-1704, we didn’t change any injection pump or injector
I can’t find the IAP from the machine
Pls r u there? Or we can chat by whatsapp? My number:+233543439220
IAP sensor is on the LH side of the engine which I'm fairly sure is the back as it's installed in the machine. Ref #8 in the illustration.
Oil pressure sensors. 161-1704 is the correct one for your Serial Number machine/engine. The sensors have been updated, new sensor Part # is 274-6719. It has a different design of connector so it requires a 237-0227 Connector to install on the engine wiring harness to make everything fit. I think that is what you are referring to. Honestly speaking with 15,000+ hours on the engine with no previous replacements my suspicion is that probably the HEUI hydraulic pump or the injectors (or both) are probably pretty well worn out. In fact with 15,409 total hours on the machine the engine is probably ready for an overhaul also. Find the IAP sensor, remove it temporarily, install a 4000psi pressure gauge (that's right - 4000), crank the starter and see what pressure you get on the gauge.
Nige, could we possibly have a bad engine position sensor? The OP states, "no error codes " if the ECM doesn't know the engine is turning, it won't log a code. Right?
We've also got a situation where there was an OP, but now a different poster has jumped in talking about a different machine. See post #7 onwards. I'm trying to work with the symptoms he's reporting. Rather than go round the houses my thought was to simply hang a gauge on the HEUI system, crank the engine and see what pressure it gets.
Checked the HUEI pump, the gear has loosed from the shaft, when I tightened it back and try it again, engine has started smoothly,10 mins later, the engine has stopped again. We dismount the pump, the gear has come out again. So the problem should be the HUEI pump
Attached the broken HUEI pump gear photos
Got a new pump with terrible price, on the way to the site to fix it, will update you, cheers
Where is the post 7? I can’t find it pls
Joe, each post is numbered. Look on the RH side...... If you go back to Page 1 your first post was #7.
Mr.Nige, pls can you teach me why the nut can't tight that gear? Is their any way to tight it well ?
I means after we tight it , it will come out again, why?
Now the engine is running well, but still there is another error showing on the dashboard , fuel
Joe, regarding your question about tightening the nut on the pump gear this is what the book says. I think that if the gear was loose on the shaft for some time both the shaft and the inside of the gear will be damaged so no matter how good you tighten the nut it will never hold for long. I suppose you could try a new nut and see how that works, but I'm not confident it would be a fix.
I have changed a new set of HUEI pump, it works , but this morning, the engine has stopped again, I am suspecting the cam shaft gear has cracked. Look at the photos I attached for that pump gear, the cam shaft gear should be also damaged. I am waiting for a new gear coming
Any comment pls?
Unless u DE-grease the shaft & gear w/ Brake Cleaner.. it wont hold.. & unless the shaft is KEYED, that torque is to low.. Have u degreased it & used loc tite.?? Blue or Red..
If that engine was running and when it quit that gear was as sloppy on the shaft as it looks in the picture I have a feeling both the bore of the gear and the shaft are worn to the point no amount of torque or even Red Loctite will hold for long.
No key, no splines. Just a pretty large angle of a taper and a big nut/washer. I agree with KSH, if it's been sloppy for any length of time both the pump shaft and the inside of the gear are probably fcuked ...... Also, how did the damage occur to the gear teeth and what do the other bears in the same gear train look like..? I imagine they look pretty second hand.
My expert are telling me the cam shaft gear could be damaged, could that be possible
Bearing in mind the condition of the HEUI pump gear from your photos, definitely. The only way to tell for sure would be to remove the pump and slowly turn the engine with a turning tool while inspecting the camshaft gear as it rotated.
OH DAAAAM.. I didn't notice the deflection.!! {cocked gear} Even "IF" U torqued it to 200 ftlbs it would probably ride up against the housing.??!!! THATS what the torque is on a mechanical inj. pump gear w/o a key.. & if u DONT de-grease it & torque it to 200 ft lbs it comes loose EVERY TIME..
Ok, I will dismount the pump by tomorrow morning and check the camshaft. Now I have the new HUEI pump, I am not too much worried about the bolt and nut again, but the gear, I hope the cam shaft gear is not damaged again
That’s the second hand ca shaft
No key, no nut, otherwise I could just change the gear
That gear is pressed onto shaft, you will be hard pressed to get the gear off your old cam and swap the new one on without causing more damage and then to top it off, getting it timed dead nuts with no key. Have you checked the cam gear as Nige had suggested.
Unfortunately all the three gears r fucked up
Are we talking chipped/marred or broken and missing?
If the gear from the HEUI pump is any indication I would expect the rest of the gears in the train would be in a similar condition right down to the crankshaft gear. That being the case it sounds like “engine out” time, especially when you consider that it has 15,400 hours on it.
All the gears r chipped
The hillbilly part of me says polish the sharp edges, slap her together and ride it till she's dead. In the meantime budget and plan for engine swap. That way you're back in production and won't be blindsided. Plus service every 150-200 hours till the samples come back clean.
To the OP. You certainly aren't going to lose anything if you do. The gears are fcuked already .....
Gentlemen, is there anybody has a good condition engine for sale? Pls quote me, and shipped to Ghana here
I know I have smoothed out some rough looking gears and managed to get something usable again. Guess it all depends on how willing you are to take on the risk of a failure. Even if they do start flaking off more at some point what is the worst that can happen? I mean the chips from the current damage has already gone through the oil system and left damage along the way, scored cam and crank and so on.
I have attached the broken thrust plate and a home used one, can we just change this part and cam shaft with gear to make the engine run again. I have washed the engine completely, and drained all the engine oil
Long time, my friends, after I change the cam shaft and the locker, now everything is fine now, Like a new engine
The thrust plate is the cause for everything