I have a 1999 JD 410E the hydralics work fine for about half hour then when it warms up all the hydraulics bucket steering and hoe quit working then if you let it sit for a minute it will start working for a few minutes again, I changed the hyd filter and the hyd tank breather filter, and yes its full of hyd oil, I also took the steering priority valve apart and diddnt see anything wrong there. If anyone has any ideas please let me know
It's a good possiblity your pump's gone south.
it the oil clean lookin'?....if it's milky lookin' there's water in it....that will make it act up...
No the oil is actually very clean and it looks like the pump has been replaced in the past and I dont think the machine has very many hours, thanks though
I suggested the pump for this reason; everything quits. Steering, bucket, and hoe. For that to happen you have to loose delivery of oil or pressure of oil. I'm near certain the 490E is an open center hyd circuit using power beyond ports on the valves. The pump delivers oil, first to the priority valve. The main function of this valve is to make sure oil is available for steering while at the same time oil is available to the loader, like your raising the bucket to load a truck while steering. It just makes sure both functions get oil. Ok, what if the steering orbit valve is toast? Then it wouldn't make sense that it works cold. The oil leaves the priority valve and goes to the loader valve. If no functions are being used, it goes right through the loader valve and does power beyond to the hoe valve, goes through the hoe valve back to tank. All these things work good cold, and quit working when warm. In hydraulics you have two things, flow and pressure. The pump delivers both. It delivers flow so oil is available to work. Pressure is made by resistance to flow, like when you raise the bucket full of material. That requires energy, resistance to flow. The pump continues to flow oil, but now it has to do it by developing pressure. If the pump is bad, it can't produce this pressure because of internal leakage. Maybe oil bypassing by the gears and pump wall, maybe oil bypassing by the end of the gears where they contact the end plates. When these things happen, the result is usually heat. Start your machine up and start working it. Don't stop until it quits working. When it does, right then, get off and feel how warm the suction line and output line is at the pump. if the suction line is still relatively cool, and the output line is hot, I'd say your pump is failing. That's kinda tough for me to say your pump is crapping out, the last thing I want to happen is for you to replace the pump and that not fix your problem. The other thing that can mess up developing pressure is relief valves. But it's highly unusual for relief valves to work properly cold and then crap out warmed up, let it set for a few minutes, then they work, then crap out again. So let's look at the components again; if the steering orbit valve was bad, it would be from internal leakage. Usually you notice this when the steer cylinders hits the end of their stroke, the valve can't develop pressure, steering wheel keeps turning. Also, if your not steering at the moment, the priority valve should deliver oil to the loader valve, but alas, the loader quits working as well. Well, maybe it's the relief valve in the loader valve. Then the steering should still work because the priority valve should make sure there's some oil available for steering. The hoe is the last thing in this line of oil, if the other two ain't working, it becomes irrelevant. I realise this is a long post, but when your suggesting someone spend the money for a pump, you have to noodle out all the details. Even then...I hope you find it's something else before you buy a pump.
Thanks very much I will try all that when I get back to the shop!!
Thanks for taking the time to provide those details - I learn alot by reading and I take that with me to my problems. This is a good helper.
It's nice that people like you, ATCOEQUIP, takes the time to answer posts like this. Certainly a good reply for a open center system! Unfortunately I must disappoint you with this link http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/noncurrent/non_current_backhoes.html It says that the 410E does not have an open center system with gear pump. It has a PCLS - Pressure Compensated Load Sensing - system with a variable axial piston pump. I think the 310 and 315 has gear pump open center and the 410 and 710 has the PCLS. Pressure compensated just means that the pump will swivel down so that it will never exceed the max pressure. Instead of going over the relief valve it will just reduce it's displacement. Saves a lot of energy and heat generation right there. Load sensing means that the pump is trying to keep a constant pressure difference from the pressure side of a valve section to the A or B port of the valve section whenever that valve section is activated. Typically this pressure difference is around 15 bar or 220PSI. When you suddenly open the valve a little bit more the same flow will not be enough to generate the 220PSI pressure drop, the pump senses this and swivels up the flow to get the 220PSI across the valve. In other words, the pump works pretty much like a flow regulator and you set the flow with the lever. The oil fed back to the pump regulator from the LS port in the valve block is a very tiny amount, maybe half gallon per minut because all it’s suppose to do is move a small spool in the pump regulator. Because of the tiny amount, any leaks (internal or external) in the LS line could paralyze the machine. That could explain why it works cold but not hot, as hot oil is thinner and escapes easier through leaks. Internal leaks could be in the valve block or in the pump regulator, would be a bit of a hassle to find. External leaks I assume you would notice. Another likely possibility is that the pump regulator itself is out of order. Dirt in the oil could easily jam the small spools inside every now and then. Small spools don't need much of an excuse to jam, they can be fingerlight to move when taken apart but still jam when put back together. It could still be the pump and debris from a damaged pump could jam the pump regulator but I assume you would have noticed if the filter was full of metal flakes. Air entering the system through the suction line could accumulate in the pump regulator and making it behave totally unpredictable. Check if the suction hose is dry and full of cracks. Also if there is an auxiliary gear pump for brakes and such it could be responsible for letting air in. Doesn’t say anything about an aux pump in the datasheet though. If you have a manometer you could connect it to the LS line. Grab a full front bucket of dirt and than work the machine until it stops working, preferably with your full bucket still in the air. While the machine is paralyzed, try to lift the bucket while watching the manometer. If pressure is high enough to lift the bucket (somewhere near 3000psi I’m guessing from the datasheet) but it still doesn't lift it’s likely that the fault is in the pump regulator. If the pressure is rather low, you could start looking for leaks. Also try a function with no load. These clues are rather vague because I don’t have the right numbers from the workshop manual but it is worth trying. A workshop manual is always a good thing if you can afford it. Available here: https://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/ You can also try e-bay. There is more to it with PCLS systems but this post is already to long and tiresome to read I think. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you!
Good job Klutz. I have been wondering all along if the 410 was a closed center load sensing system. I haven't worked on one, worked on many 310 models and they were open center. Oh well, some days your the windshield...somedays your the bug! I'll have to do a little more thinking on this one. And may I say you presented a very good post. :notworthy
OK - I knew you were talking Open Centre, and I have a 310C, so your info is still OK for my little brain to upload! Thanks again. John
Yes, this would apply to a 310C. I used to service a 310C for a customer, it was a little worn, but I have to say that was a tough old machine. I've always been partial to Case loader/hoes myself, but my very close second fav picks would be the Deere 310C and 310D. Just solid old machines. Your 410 has bugged me since I made my first post. Strangely, at work today I was even still wondering if it uses a closed center system, little voice in my head talking to me again. :Banghead Klutz put together a good post for you on your 410. I'm wondering if it uses a sensor circuit that comes from the valves (seems complex for this machine to me), or whether it uses a sensor circuit at the pump that senses the main output. I don't know, just curious what type of setup the machine has. In any case, logic still points to the pump and/or its sensor circuit, since all functions crap out when the machine warms up. Again, could be wrong, it's just logic points to the pump. If your piston pump was worn to the point of causing the problem, I still think the result would be the generation of heat. When piston pumps go bad inside and leak excessive amounts of oil internally, it gets the oil hot. And this internal leakage should be dumped via a case drain hose back to tank. Although, I admit, I don't know the 410 system, surely it uses a case drain from the piston pump! If it does, you could disconnect it and route it to a bucket, start it up cold, and see how much oil the case drain produces. Then run the dog 'till it goes down. Then check the case drain. If the oil flow from the drain has substantially increased, I'd say your pump is going down. If it doesn't increase, you could have a sensory circuit problem like Klutz described. Find a way to connect to the pump output line and run a hose up into the cab with a 5000 lb gauge at the end of the hose so you can monitor what it's doing until it craps out. Let's keep working with this thing and figure it out. I don't know the 410, but I'm learnin' on this one right there with you.
Thanks ATCOEQUIP! The old JD ag tractors used a constant pressure system with variable pump that only senses the main output. Some would call that PC - Pressure Compensated. The 410E has a PCLS system where the LS means that it does indeed use a sensor circuit that comes from the valves. Complex but better in many ways. I assume the more sophisticated hydraulic system is the reason why you pick a new 410 over a new 310. Gavin, could you confirm there a 1/4" hose connected to the pump? If you had some pictures it would be great! If you had the brand and type code of the pump and the valves it would be even better.
Until ya have to work on it! For sure a little more complex. These type of systems provide precision control of hydraulics, but they have to be more expensive to build compared to open center circuits or even pressure compensated hydrostat. Is that really all that necessary on a loader/hoe for the additional cost??? Heck, I don't know...I don't build 'em. I'm still trying to noodle out what would cause the cold/works hot/quits with this type of system. Still sounds like a pump problem, but I wouldn't say for sure without some further testing.
Sorry I havent got back to you guys thanks for all the responses I,ve had alot going on in the shop.I Put the 410E on the back burner for a bit. It does have a piston pump with a closed center center system. I took the load sensing control valve apart tonite that is mounted on the pump and it is very sticky but it looks just fine. I emery clothed it off and lubed it up and it still does it . I got on the deere parts site and that damn valve costs $850 and I can hold it in the palm of my hand. So i am going to mess with it again tomarrow so I will let you guys know. THANKS VERY MUCH
My visits to this site are unfortunately way too sporadic. That being said I'm now gonna nag on Gavin for not keeping us updated. What's the status Gavin? Did you just buy a new regulator and everything was back to normal? Or have you been through hell with even more hydraulic trouble shooting and it still doesn't work? Or did you just sell it on a cold day?
New member here, got a similar question about a early 90's cat 416B. Seems that the machine won't start unless a control lever (the one for the bucket was handy) was jiggled. Then the motor would turn over, start, and run. It's not an ex-hoe, and we think it is something in the "load sensing" or relief valves. Something seems stuck, so the pumps is always trying to put out high pressure. Pulled the pump, not to bad a job - came right out the front, under the rad and hydro tank - there are too valves on the pump. One has three small ports under it, the other wouldn't come over easy - spring inside. Should we open the pump? Anyway, any ideas, etc. would be helpful.
What do you mean with "ex-hoe"? I don't think I can be of much help, haven't been around Cat backhoes. From what you wrote it seems like the LS line is not draining properly OR one of your valves is not in neutral. For instance if you have a hydraulic aux function operated by floor pedal and put some tools on/under/next to the pedal that pushes it slightly of center. Check all your controls to make sure nothing is holding them of center. Some valves don't drain the LS line when in neutral, I think, rather it depends on an small orifice in the pump regulator to drain the LS line. I wouldn't open the pump but if you feel confident (and have a clean workplace and clean hands) you could open the pump regulator and check all orifices. You would need to know your pressure settings and have access to a manometer to put it all back in working order again. If you come up with the pump brand and type it would be good because then you can most likely find a datasheet online. What about your local friendly Cat dealer? Have you asked them?
Thanks for the reply - by ex-hoe I meant Extend-a-hoe. We ended up not opening the pump - kinda chicken! We did check both valves on the pump for proper operation or obstruction. After reinstalling, a gauge on the front test port on the pump read 3600 psi all the time, except when swinging the stick in after extending it out. Then the gauge went down to 500 psi. Checked the pressure at the port on the valve on the pump. It read 100 psi at idle, then went crazy reading up to 3600 psi when we cycled through various boom, stick, and curl operations. I haven't talked to the local CAT dealer, my boss might have.
Does anyone know if there is a prior discussion regarding a 580 SL hydraulic system in this forum? It sure is interesting learning about some of these other systems.
Welcome to the forum shopman@hep and Singletree. :usa Both of you are limiting the resposes to your questions because you have posted in a thread concerning a Deere 410E. You would have better results if you would start your own thread, be sure and put your machine model in the thread title, then it will catch the eye of wrenches who are familiar with your rig and they can offer you some advice. shopman, it sounds like you possibly have a problem with the pump compensator, but I'm not familiar with your machine and can off little advice. Cmark in Australia, as well as a number of members, knows your machine and can help you out. Having your own thread will help get their attention. Singletree, there are a number of 580 threads here, just look in the Tractor/Loader/Backhoe section. There are a number of Case techs here; Goose, gggraham, and Alrman are a few that come to mind. They can answer any question you have on a 580 SL. You just need to make your 3rd post at a thread and you'll become a Junior Member and be able to start your own thread.
"you are limiting your responses by not having a new thread...." Agreed, but as a new member, I can't start new threads. So I thought this one was a related one to post under. It does seem that one of the two compensators on the pump is not functioning correctly, but which one?
Ahh, but your now a Junior Member. You can now start a thread and enjoy the fun. Can't help ya on the pump, I'm not familiar with them.
Slow hydraulic functions I see u r havin some hydraulic problems, not sure if u have solve them. i also have a problem, i have a 490E , when I boom up, the boom gives a big jerk then continues to move but then very slowly. If i try very hard to raise it as gentle as possible it will move fine, but it seems that as a great amount of pressure is being built up and is not able to be released as necessary. I checked all the solenoids on the solenoid valve bank, and even replaced the one controlling the boom as I discovered it was faulty. this is because at first the only slow function was the boom up operation. i switched around the solenoids and then the boom worked fine but the one where i placed the boom's solenoid moved slow.so i replaced that solenoid. now i expected everything to work fine but it didnt. the hydraulic functions will only operate ok if i try to be as gentle as possible when booming up. if i pull back sharply on the joystick all functions slow down until i release both joysticks and try to move it again (gently). please help. thanks
Does anyone know what this problem turned out to be? I have the exact same problem with the exact same machine.
What was the problem with Gavin’s JD 410E ? I have a very similar problem. Thank you