Bought this old beat up fixer upper backhoe just to use around the yard and plow snow for the winter.The guy i bought it from said he was using it to load trucks in his yard of a small paving stone company .He said it was working fine and then it stalled .He siad it was leaking coolant out the side a bit on about behind the filter above the starter of the Perkins 4.236 .It is leaking in between the head and the block.He said there was air in the fuel lines and when he tried to prime it the starter gave out and he decided to sell it as he has many newer backhoes in the yard.I got it home today and the ground from the frame to the battery had a pair of vicegrips holding it on.Anyways i fixed that connection but when i turn the key all i hear is a click to the right of the keyswitch behind the fuses .I have an old international gasser tractor and have never worked on a diesel .Any help would be appreciated
If I remember right the click is probably the main power solenoid. Probably need to remove side cover and check for power at starter
There is nearly 12 volts at the solonoid when i turn the key so i assume there is something wrong with the solonoid or the starter
If you want an electrical schematic then poist up a machine Serial Number. It's probably a 5PC-prefix.
I cut my backhoe-ing teeth on a straight boom English 416 like that, an extendahoe 2wd. Best of luck with it.
It’s leaking coolant between the head and the block? Can you turn the engine over by hand?
Service Manual Trading Post - New reply to watched thread 5PC03498
well i am thinking it is .It's behind the bracket for the filter that goes into the fuel pump and the lines that go to the injectors.I put some coolant in the rad yesterday and i notice today it's seeping out without the engine running which the engine doesn't run at this point.Yes the enginge turns over .I turned it with a wrench at the flywheel/fan and the coolant is not in the engine oil
Check your message inbox for an electrical schematic.
Thank You
Got the starter out.It looked like it was rebuilt not long ago. There was rust in it and the brushes were stuck in and could not move .I got them moving .Not sure if i can just buy a new set of brushes and springs for it and i think i should check armature to see if its shorted.Before i took it apart i tapped it fit a hammer on the bench and it tried to slowly
If the starter has not been replaced by an aftermarket unit then spare parts are available. See the parts attached breakdown.
I think I would get the starter working, then there is a bolt on top of transfer pump on side of engine remove it and clean the screen put it back to gather and use the leaver on that pump to prime the system but you might have to turn engine to get it to pump. then open the line on I believe number 3 injector at the injector leave the other lines tight opening them lets it take air in
It looks like the brush assembly and the field are all together unless i am wrong
The coolant is coming from the bracket shown
That starter looks like it was very hot. if you have a starter shop around might be a good thing to get a exchange. about your leak is it possible it's the soft plug ??
there is a rusty freeze plug behind that bracket. It may be as simple as that. People don't keep up on antifreeze in terms of corrosion protection, and those mild steel freeze plugs will rust right through. EDIT: @pittsburgh cat man I did not read past "hot starter" you beat me to it
i would be very happy if it was .I will try and get that bracket off to see .There was a pile of dirt in between that bracket and the block/head .
here is the armature
Looks pretty new.
i think it was just rebuilt .Had nice black spray paint on the outside
Well you guys have been great so far and here it is bad pic and all .Does anyone happen to know the size of the plug and where i could get one.Getting info so far for this old Cat hasn't been great except for you guys here .They want like $500 for a manual for a 38 year old machine .Can find an operators manual either or even a parts manual
If you look at AV spares it will let you look at parts on sis. If you get a part number it might be possible to get a soft plug from a auto parts store. I was thinking about your starter, I can't remember if you can get solenoid on top of starter apart But on the bigger delco starters we would flip the contacts and washer to get a new contact area
ok thanks .Will look that up .The solonoid comes off the starter .I have it off . It was the brushes that got overheated, rusted,stuck on . I may put it all back together and give it a try .What do i have to lose?
carefully measure the soft plug and go to NAPA. If the person behind the counter knows their store you will probably get it. Or Google Perkins 4 236 soft plugs and get this on the first link https://parts4engines.com/en-us/pro...1JO8Dgb-AFFtnvDC_trwFQDzSOoYG7uyGnTCpMvDnpht1 1.5 1.375 1.25 Bet it is one of those.
Who's that.? Cat Dealer.? Here is a Service Manual on eBay for $420. New price is $1,250. Here is a Parts Manual also on eBay for $89. Last here is an Operation & Maintenance Manual on eBay for $60. NOTE: If the service manual I listed above is complete it will have a copy of the O&M in it. Ask the seller.
Got the plug and installed it.Cleaned up the starter and tried it without solonoid and it seems to work fine .Didn't put solonoid on because i dont have a clue how this is suppose to be put together and attach to the arm.Got all the hard work done .Never saw a solonoid that looks like this
The spring goes on first The keeper goes thru the slot with the ears facing the solenoid and the part I'm not sure about is the fork I'm thinking it goes between the retainer and the end of the slot I do seem to remember they were a pain to get in I would try it on the bench to make sure Bendix works
Got the solonoid on and installed on motor .Turns engine over good.The new cap/plug i put on is seeping a bit .Nothing serious .I wonder if it will clear up on it's own or get worse.Don't feel like putting that bracket ,filter and lines back on and have to take it all off again.
It will usually corrode and seal up on its own but with where it is, not sure I would take that chance. Most time I put those freeze plugs in, I put some Loctite around them.
well i used some orange rtv silicone let set overnight and still seeped.I took the cap back out and will try another one.I have some permatex motoseal gasket maker.Should i try that?
Do you mean that thread locker blue or red loctite? I also have some JB weld
I think I would try the motoseal make sure bore is clean and no nicks
Looking for this?
Want this?
@waybel , how are your computer skills?
If you have already tried silicone and it still leaks, there may be a problem with the freeze plug or the bore. I would remove and clean both really well and maybe try some Indian Head Gasket sealer.
Good thank you so much
I used the motoseal and put a new plug in yesterday.Filled it up with coolant 30 minutes ago and so far so good no leaks .Next i guess put bracket and lines back together and try and bleed this thing and see what happens
Check your PMs.
Well i tried to bleed the system and so far haven't had much luck.I used the litlle primer and got fuel flowing through the main filter.I loosed the bottom bleeded on the injection pump and got a bit of fuel through it.I tightened it and opened the top bleeder screw and not much if any fuel coming out there.I loosened the #2 injector and turned the engine over and fuel coming through there.I sprayed some quick start in the intake and it ran until it ran out of quick start
First cat told us not to use either they told us to use wd40 Did you check the screen in transfer pump?
No i did not .Would that be on the top of the transfer pump i am guessing ?It's in a lovely spot
Remove the small screw on top of the pump and look under that cover.
I did not see a screen in there unless it is awfully small but there is a pile of crud on both side of the bowl
it should be on main body of pump same size as bowel unless someone removed it
none on this one then.Maybe i should clean it out,put cover back on and loosen line exiting it and turn engine over to see if it is pumping fuel out?
yes that would be a good idea i have seen the leaver inside the engine break
Attached the disassembly of the pump. I arrowed the strainer (Step 2). It's white plastic and hard to miss unless someone forgot to reinstall it at one time.
Fuel coming out of the pump
Funny i can get fuel flowing with the manual lever to the bottom of the injection pump bleeder but none to the top one.Also when i loosened the #2 injector and turn engine over some fuel comes out of it .How much is suppose to i have no idea.Should i try maybe loosening all the injector lines and turn engine over?
Distributor pump look for highest line on pump open that line at injector opening the other lines lets it pull air in It should run on 3 cylinders with the one open after it starts close the last one
Well given up for today still no clue.Even checked the stop solonoid on the injector pump all good .Oh and i found the strainer on the ground from the fuel pump.Put that back on.Off topic but their appears to be a connection for a propane small cylinder on the upper top left rear side of the emgine with a small plastic line that appears to go to intake manifold
That is for a either bottle it puts a metered amount of either into the engine Cat didn't want us to just spray either into the engine. when they came new they had no bottle on them hence why we got to starting them with wd40
interesting .well i guess the next step is i am going to start at the fuel tank and check everything one thing at a time .Even checking that lever fuel pump which i think is the issue yet.I operated the starter and had my wife checking fuel flow .She said fuel was coming out buttttt lol
I seem to remember some of the fuel lines from tank to injection pump had rubber ferrules possibly one cracked
i don't see fuel anywhere.I just took the fuel tank hose off from the water/fuel separator and i could barely blow through it so i put air through it seems to be better now.That fuel pump with the lever has a bracket put beside it with a small piece of wire.Someone put it on there.Maybe to hold up the lever after priming?Does it have to be in a certain position?
No the lever is sort of a manual override for the pump that’s why I said you might have to turn engine if engine is holding pump at discharge you can’t get it to pump with the leaver you might try changing the fuel filters
As mentioned above the lever on the engine side of the transfer pump is driven from a lobe on the camshaft. If by chance the engine stopped with that lever in the "Up" position you won't be able to pump anything using the external lever because of the position of the guts of the pump.
is there anything to cleaning that see through fuel /water seperator filter?Imagine there is some type of filter screen in there
There is a replaceable filter above the bowel
i took it apart and there was no filter only a cone shaped metal thing .i am putting it back together i am going to change the filter on the other side side of the engine.Anything to look for to change it?i thought i read something about an o-ring had to be in the correct spot
You may be thinking of #9. The replacement filter should come with the two O-rings marked #7. Make sure that there are not two O-rings in the groove in the head.
Well the filter was new.The guy must have changed it to try and get it going before selling to me.How much WD40 can i use ?It runs when it is sprayed in.I am not sure what to try next. I looked at my messages from the previous owner and he said it stalled and he notices air in the water/fuel filter .Said fuel system keeps on getting air from somewhere so it needs to be prime every now and then
One reason cat had us use wd40 is it has a little lube for cylinders where either dries the cylinder walls out. Try opening bleed screw on pump half way up try to use the leaver to get fuel there close that bleeder open one at top pump till you get fuel close bleeder crack number 3 fuel line give it a little snort of wd40 crank it and see if it will run on 3 cylinders if it does start shut number 3
Well after the trying what you said i am speechlees but the darn thing started and i drove it around the yard .I don't think i was giving enough WD-40 .Tried one small shot it tried to go .Gave it a little more next time ran a little longer.third time gave it more and away it went .Ran rough till i got down to close the injector line then smoothened right out.Thank you all so much for the help.I am sure more questions to come as the project continues.Oh and the lever pump was leaking a bit when i was priming it so may have to change that pump
When I was quite a bit younger we used to start tractors and burn wasp nests with WD-40 but they changed the propellant in the can from propane to something that doesn't really burn about 20 years ago. I seriously doubt that you can start a diesel easily with it like you used to be able to.
@pittsburgh cat man , @Nige , you guys rock!
Guess the next thing if it keeps on running ok id to try and fix the cab and the battery box.No idea where i can find a windshield without costing half the price i paid for this machine.Also doors seem like impossible to find.Also has a left downrigger cylinder missing if i ever want or need to use the hoe
And the answer to your next question to get the boom to lock in carry position. pull boom leaver in up boom has to raise pretty fast as it hits top of travel reverse the leaver. Windshield is easy a glass man can cut one out as it is flat
That was a picture in the owners yard he had it in the locked position to transport.What type of glass should i ask for?The original windshield was still intact but cracked in a few places .Whe he transported it here it ended up on the floor from the rough ride i'm guessing
if you tell them it's for a windshield they should know It has two pains with vinyl between the pains
Standard safety glass any glass shop should have. Tempered glass is often from the factory but is more expensive and usually only available from the OEM especially if it has holes in it. It shatters when it breaks though where safety glass can crack and stay intact.
Got an estimate of almost $400 canadian for the windshield from a glass place here.$25 a square foot plus labour charge .Anyone have a clue why the RPM,fuel and oil pressure guages would not be working? The hour meter ,heat guage and the voltmeter work.
What type of hydraulic oil can i use ,also motor oil and transmission oil.Thanks in advance
I think the first thing i would do is check the wiring for critter damage I seem to remember speed pick up comes from the alternator But I could be remembering wrong
Sounds like a classic Perkins issue. That click could be a weak starter or poor ground — especially if vice grips were used . Make sure your battery is strong and all connections are clean. Also, if coolant’s leaking between the head and block, you might be looking at a head gasket issue. I had a similar problem on an old commercial paving machine in NH we use — turned out to be both air in fuel lines and a tired starter. Hope you get it sorted — those old machines still have life left in 'em!
Got it going .Starter needed some cleaning up.Frost plug had a hole in it and bled lines and off she went
Get hold of an Operation & Maintenance Manual. Probably the best investment you'll ever make. See Post #26 back on Page 2.
See posts #34 and #35 for electronic copies. I posted them
I found on my 426 that the fuse holders had enough corrosion that many of them had poor contact and electrical stuff did not work. I removed all the fuses and chucked a .223 rifle bore brush in a drill and polished them all. Then installed new fuses. Problems solved.
Well the old backhoe starts up fine if you start it every 2 or 3 days but leave it for a week and it tries to start and then seems to run out of fuel then won't start.My brother in law who ran skidders in the bush for many years came over for a visit to see it .Tried to start it after at least a week and it tried to start then dies.He said to put an electric fuel pump on it and that would solve the problem.What kind of electric fuel pump do i need.?I 'm guessing some type of inline pump and hook up a switch in the cab?E
Sounds like you’re sucking air somewhere and the fuel will leak out causing more air.
Fix that problem correctly, most likely getting air in somewhere, rather than trying to Band-Aid a fix. In your position I would ignore your BIL's suggestion. Have you got any manuals for it yet.?
Any chance it could be the manual fuel pump?I don't see leaks anywhere
I was thinking about this last night there are rubber olives they call them at the water separator I would start there and yes the check valves in the transfer pump could be leaking
Think i will change the pump .It doesn't cost a lot and if it is not the cause then i know it isn't that. It's strange because if i start it every day or even 2 days it starts and runs fine .I let it sit a week and then fuel /air issues and won't start
Well after getting it started with wd40 i let it run for 30 minutes ...the longest i have had it running so far.Had a leak from the line at the injection pump to the back injector and the the lift tranfer pump is also leaking .I tightened the bolt at the injection pump line and that stopped that leak.I ordered a new transfer pump .Do these engines run cold?had it running 30 minutes and coolant is barely warm .Going to a cold winter plowing with not much heat lol .I imagine when the machine is working warms up faster
They usually warm up better using the front bucket rather than the hoe I’ve plowed snow with them you are usually looking for the coat hook pretty quick your door might cause problems though
Hopefully i can get er closed in before the winter lol
Ya, they get warm in the winter, that’s for sure. I did buy a little plug in heater for my feet and never bothered to put a cigarette lighter receptacle in, as I never needed it.
Have you checked to see if a previous owner removed the temperature regulator (thermostat) before you got the machine.? That could explain why it is slow to warm up.
no have not checked that but will
Finally got the new lift pump today and will install tomorrow when i get the new rubber olives.Does the olive go over the steel line then pushed into the pump and thread the line in or does the olive go in to the pump inlet first then screw the line on?
anyone? ready to install
Been a long time but I think I remember on the lines first
Well it's been awhile but after installing new lift pump and olives seems to hopefully solved the problem.Have been working on new floor and cab body work.Had batteries disconnected and put them back in temporarily after 4 wekks and it started right up.Got the floor finally done and made a new battery box .Getting ready to try and make a couple of doors.Has anyone ever made doors for these ?
Have you checked whether or not it has a thermostat yet.?
i finally ran it for awhile and used the loader and lots of heat.My loader goes up slowly .Guessing that any cylinder leaking on this backhoe can cause this problem allowing air in the system? . The up and down loader cylinder is leaking
You won't know until you look. It's not hard to get at the thermostat on those engines. It's probably about ready for a replacement anyway. They get tired over time.
Hey Waybel I have a parts book for you 416B I am new to this site and not sure how to send it but if you flip me your email I would be glad to flip it to you Doug
i sent you my email Doug by private message
How are these for starting in the cold?The few times i tried it around 0 C 30 degrees F just cranked and cranked and didn't want to ruin my new batteries and rebuilt starter.If i plug the inline heater in connected to coolant hoses for 30 minutes starts right up .Are most of these perkins diesels like this ?.No glow plugs in this one.Something i am not doing properly or do i have to plug in the heater at these temperatures?
There should be a place for a either bottle and yes they don't like the cold. usually only takes one hit on either button to get it going
Ether required when the ambient temperature is below freezing point according to the O&M Manual.
Thanks guys .I thought either was not recommended for these engines .Anyways where would i find one of those either bottles if i can use it
Because the either bottle on the machine only injects a metered shot it's not a problem unlike someone with a heavy finger on a either can
If all else fails there will be a Cat Part Number for it somewhere.
Hi Nige , i haven't checked if there is a thermostat but decided i am going to change thermostat because heat is just luke warm in cab.So no o-ring or gasket except for the outer paper gasket?i found the thermostat number 4w-8063 but no idea of gasket number.I guess i could just make one or add sealant?Any idea of bolt torque bolt on the housing? Thanks
the outlet gasket is 2w1236
so that is the only gasket needed ?
Yes
thank you any idea about torque on those bolts or just snug ?
try this
All the required part numbers for the front housing are shown on the 7W-6224 attachment in Post #101.
Anyone know what type of wiper to use for the rear windshield?Universal type?
The part number is 6V5849. The J hook style is pretty common for older cars.
from what I see it's 14 inch
thank you guys ordered one
Want to change the fanbelt on this .What bolts to remove to allow enough access down on the coupler ?i am guess unbolt at flywheel and back it off? Are there bolts on the pump that have to be removed ? Havent crawled under in the snow to check yet .
I remember changing belt on them is a pain there is a bolt on the piece that the pump spline goes into that has to be loosened I also remember dropping the counter weight loosen the pump and pull it out of spline I sure would wait till spring if it was me
Thanks .Sounds like a plan .Hopefully the belt lasts till spring and i'll back to you then.
What about using one of those link belts?Older guy like me didn't even know these existed.Are they any good or will last ?Hear a lot of good things about them and some saying they don't last.Anyone ever used them?
I think it would be ok for emergency fix but I think the right belt would make me have piece of mind
Actually have a couple of link belts for emergencies, up on the wall in the garage. If it’s not a serpentine belt, like my Case is, I would definitely run a Link Belt, forever. As much as I despised them 30 years ago, these days, the seem to last better than all the cheap crap coming from China or wherever. I have had a couple of Link Belts on some stuff that’s been on for over a decade. The sheaves are so worn and didn’t feel like replacing, on my father’s old 9n and a beast of a JD mower drive belt that previously burned up 2 supposedly Kevlar belts. Have no idea, why they are so tough. Still, I generally like to fix things correctly but as i get older, just want it working. That damn JD mower has had the deck rebushed and re pinned twice and still was burning up drive belts.
Mine is just a regular 1/2 x 60 inch v-belt for the alternator
A link belt would be a viable option for you.
I changed the belts on my 426 and it was not that hard. The splines were a bit stiff but some Kroil and a prybar did the trick. It was 3 or 4 bolts on the coupler.
Would something like this work Dave? https://www.amazon.ca/Wadoy-Adjusta...Q4NN/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1
So the bolts that hold the coupler to the flywheel/harmonic balancer then all of it slides towards the front pump and all?Is the pump not held to the frame?
You do know there are clamp bolts on pump spline side
Never looked .So thats how it slides back
Just crawled under and had a look.Looks like fun to even get at those clamp bolts
Correct, Link Belt till spring. Then procrastination will fit the bill and who wants to lay under a backhoe. By then, the Link Belt will have grown on you. Lol
That's a great idea .Will the one i posted with the link above work or do i need something better?And now my next question.All 3 loader cylinders leak .I bought 3 seal kits to repair them.I tried earlier this afternoon to loosen one of the end caps and no go.Had an 18 inch pipe wrench and a bar and it didn't budge.Everything on these seems to be a pain lol
Yep, the Link belt you had will work as long as it’s long enough and it’s a standard V-belt pulleys. Haven’t had a 416 for 20 years but remember it as a V-belt. Do not be that guy. Buy the right spanner wrench, look for other threads on using a ratchet strap or quick clamps to keep it on if you’re doing it yourself. Use a peening method, if it’s really bad, try not to use heat. Protect the chrome rod with a split paper towel tube and some tape, or whatever else works. Use the pin that the cylinder it came out of to hold it for taking off the piston nut, instead of fighting with a vice Use a minimum 1/2 air impact to get the piston nut off, making sure to have a good air supply and oil the crap out of the gun, just before use. I always snap the bolt, right on the end, with a 5 pound hammer, just to let it know it’s going to come off one way or the other. If you don’t have a tourqe multiplier to re-tourqe, which I don’t, use other measures or take it to a hydraulic shop. I always clean the threads of the bolt and the rod, heat the rod end with the threads up to 2-250 degrees and using red LockTite, make sure my compressor is at max PSI and run it right in. Good Luck!
Look all around the cylinder nut and see if it has a set screw, don't know if it has one or not, my 416C doesn't
Yes i have the proper v belt for it .Will use the Link belt for now .Thanks for the great advice will look for spanner tool
Didn't see a set screw
Might be something to think about. We learned long ago heating tube was not a good idea it always seemed to destroy the threads in the tube
I see now people having success peening the metal on top of where the threads should be .May try that route and then try the spanner tool
HeavyEquipmentForums willie's method has never been known to fail !
Well i got all 3 cylinders repaired for the loader .Works well and no leaks.On to the next repair and oil leaks.I have to change the 2 boots/seals where the pins go into the rear axle.Oil leaks out every time i use the brakes.Not sure whats involved there but ordering the 2 boots/seals .Also has a transmission leak at the top where the shifter is for forward/reverse /neutral .Don't know what i need to fix that .Can't seem to find out what part i need there .i imagine another seal?
Well it's almost August and i figure it's time to tackle the fan belt .I am still not sure if i should trust putting a link belt on and having it fail in the middle of the winter or make an attempt at putting on the new v-belt .I took a couple of pics of the rubber couplings and adapter .Which bolts would i have to remove here and does the bolt on the clamp have to be removed or just loosened ?Is the bolt in a notch on the shaft? Is it safe to work on this with the loader up in the air and the safety bracket on ?
This is old history I’m thinking we used to loosen the clamp bolt on pump coupling and remove the bolts that go in engine pulley I think I remember it will slide back enough to get belt between coupling and engine pulley if not take the other 4 bolts out of engine side coupling
One other thing I noticed put the pin back in your safety in goes in bottom hole
I wish I could remember exactly how I replaced the belt on my 426 but I am pretty sure I removed the bolts that held the rubber to the engine pulley and pushed it back enough to slide the belt in.
Good eye Cat man .Yes i forgot to do that .Will give that a try when it cools down a bit Thanks for info to you and edgephoto
I would always prefer a correct V-belt over the adjustable ones but unless there was a problem with a pulley, I have had them last years and years.
Well i managed to get the new v belt installed .It wasn't as bad as i thought.I removed the 4 bolts holding the rubber flange to the engine pulley.I turned the adapter until the 2 bolts that hold the shaft coupler were pointed up towards the top.That way was able to loosen both bolts with a 3/8 drive ratchet and 17mm socket.Got a wrecking bar and tapped the adapter back with a 5 pound hammer enough to get the new belt on.The backhoe on this never worked properly since i got it so i was curious to see if could make it work just in case i ever needed it.The left and right turn cylindersfor the boom worked .The bucket worked and the stabilyzer worked .Well one did because one is missing.I could get the boom to move a bit if i operated another lever at the same time .Read that changing resolver o-rings may fix this. I changed all 7 of them .Tried it and it did seem a bit better although i still had to operate 2 levers then a hose blew.No idea what hose i need .Do i just take it off and bring to Princess auto or somewhere that makes these up?
There are two resolvers (primary and secondary) on each of the 7 sections of the control valve. One is accessed from the side of the control valve, the other one from underneath. Did you change the O-Rings in both resolvers or just one.? Did you inspect the condition of the balls #35 and replace if worn.? Did you give the Valve Assy #39 a shake to ensure that the ball inside it rattled.? The illustration below is for the Lift/Tilt control valves. This a breakdown of the lift section of the valve. The resolvers are circled.
4T4526 - #32 is the seat. It is unlikely to be damaged but if you find the ball damaged then the likelihood of the seat being damaged increases. 7J0204 - #33 is one O-Ring 8T2360 - #34 is the other O-Ring. 5B9318 - #35 is the ball. Replace if it is anything less than perfect. On the vertical resolver 4T4525 - #39 is the resolver assembly. There is a ball inside it. If that ball does not rattle when shaken (after being cleaned with brake cleaner) the assembly needs to be replaced. 8T2361 - #36 O-Ring. 1P7363 - #37 O-Ring 3J7354 - #38 O-Ring.
oh boy never checked to see if ball rattled on 39 replaced all orings and i reinstalled them
I see a revisit to that location in your future.