This may not be an issue but incase it may be in the future. My 416C back in the summer I found that when running it down the road in 4th gear. When moving at 20mph it starts climbing a hill and I have to gear down to 3rd and some time second depending on the incline. Figure this is normal but don't know for sure. Yesterday it's 20 degrees and fire it up and plow the road in front of the house in 2nd gear, no issues noticed. This morning it's 10 degrees and try to pull it out after firing it up and it doesn't want to move. I shift to 1st gear and it comes out and I do some more plowing. Run the machine only about 15 minutes and shut it off. Decide about a half hour later to check the trans oil. Oil level is fine for start up, fire it up and in neutral oil level is high on the run side. Oil is clean and clear. Do you think I have an issue coming or was it a case of cold weather and not running long enough
Find an exploded parts diagram for your transmission. It might show what parts give you second or first gear. If there is a clutch that needs to be applied to get second gear for example, the lip seal in the apply piston can get really hard when it's cold and not seal very well and no second gear. Shifting to first uses another part? And it moved. All the trannies are different, so you need the one in your beast.
I'll look around, thanks. What do you think of having to down shift on the highway and a hill?
I think you should get the machine up to operating temp and then Hold the brake with trans in high gear, full throttle then shift down through the gears to second and record the engine speed in each gear. The speeds should all be the same in gears, then record engine speed at high idle. These speeds will tell if the torque converter needs replacing. They have a stator mounted on a spragg clutch so it can freewheel while roading and lockup while pushing hard. Yours is likely broken loose and the stall speed will be lower than spec. Need to call dealer for numbers there is a bulletin on the converter. Later Bob
Thanks Bob appreciate it, will do
Update: called CAT and discussed with service manger. He looked my S/N up and there was no bulletin listed for the trans or torque converter. After discussing for a bit he thought I might be over thinking it. I fired it up and after about 30 seconds I tried to move it. This might not have been long enough to get everything working. Also 4th gear would have an issue pulling a hill and down shifting would be normal. So will wait for warmer weather and run though the RPM ranges in gear
I don't think he looked very hard. A New Torque Converter Is Now Used {3101** SMCS - 3101 Backhoe Loader: 416C (S/N: 4ZN7791-UP; 5YN6327-UP; 1WR4091-UP; 1XR696-UP) Description of Change: The torque converter has been changed in order to provide increased capacity of the stator clutch. Adaptable To: The 212-6215 Torque Converter is a direct replacement for the 140-7393 Torque Converter. The 212-6215 Torque Converter is adaptable to the machines that are listed above. 5. With engine running at HIGH IDLE rpm, brakes fully engaged and the transmission at normal operating temperature [59 to 71°C (138 to 160°F)], shift to FOURTH SPEED position. Shift forward/reverse shuttle to FORWARD and stall the torque converter until converter temperature reaches 90 to 93°C (194 to 200°F). With these conditions, stall rpm should be as per Stall RPM Chart Problem 4: High idle is correct [Step 4], but stall speed (rpm) [in Step 5] is too high. Torque converter outlet pressure is correct. Probable Cause: a. Bad torque converter (4). Problem 4: Stall speed (rpm) is low, but torque converter outlet pressure is correct. a. Engine problem.
Dang, and I thought I had a real good guy on the other end. I'll copy this down and try it, tack sometimes goes all over the place. Sure hope it's not the torque converter, it's been such a good machine for the most part. Thanks
I know I should stop thinking so much but I did it again. Mine was built in 2000 and from the S/N change happened in 1997 given the S/N 7791 and up number. So guess to be fair maybe the CAT guy might have figured it should have the new converter. Don't really know, either way I sure appreciate the change over info so I can check mine out
It's normal to shift down on hills; you might have a 10 ton machine with only 100 hp trying to get up that hill. You need the leverage of the lower gears to make that work. Sounds like you have the improved convertor from the model years, that's good. Lots of work to split the tractor to replace it.
The new converter comes in first in the 416D at these serial numbers. 416D (S/N: BFP9788-UP; BGJ642-UP; BKG2163-UP) All the later C models have the weak converter. I'm not saying you have a problem i'm just supplying the info for anybody else wondering.
Mobiltech's right. The new Part Number of converter came in part-way through the production of the D-series and is "adaptable" to C-series machines of Serial Numbers 4ZN-7791-Up which includes your machine. The big problem is that SIS doesn't show a breakdown of what the converter looks like inside which leads me to believe that there are no repair parts for it. The latest Part Number for the converter is 293-4984. As Bob said above for this type of application the converter likely has a sprag clutch inside it and if that starts to let go it will cause all sorts of apparent "low power" problems that are nothing to do with the engine ...... I remember a bunch of mechanics troubleshooting the exact same problem on a machine and got nowhere in the best part of a week. Someone asked what the symptoms were and when they told him simply said "replace the converter". It fixed the problem.
Well then I'll go back to my CAT guy isn't as good as I thought he was. Good to know and thanks guys for the help.
We all can learn something everyday if we are looking to. Need to keep in mind if a stator cuts loose of the ground shaft it will kill the engine and put through no torque. The backhoe loader torque is a welded unit, not repairable by us.
Would you say the best path forward is to first find out if I have an issue by doing the test, then replace of test fails leave it be if it does pass. Or test and if it passes, try to determine if the torque converter has been replaced, if it has not schedule the replacement?
I feel real dumb right now. Fired the hoe up and shifted to second with hope it would pull it's self out, it did not. So shifted to first and it came out but something was not right, I was moving to fast for first. I was in THIRD :Banghead. So my second was actually forth. ointhead I did later put it in "forth" after moving snow and the tranny was slightly warm. Held the brake on and push the accelerator to the floor. RPM came up to around 1950 or so and held. As before my tach does wied stuff so I'm sure it's not accurate. Will try the thing again when I get the trans up to higher temps.
Check your belt, the tach uses the alt frequency to determine RPM. Later Bob
AllDodge , I have the same machine. When it is cold it is a little sluggish , but I ease into it till it warms some. I've done the same thing on the shifter as well. I checked the stall on mine as well it holds about 2000 rpm in 4th gear. My machine has about 4600 hrs now. I've had some tell me to trade up and I've seen some with 12k hours on them. I would believe its fine. I never got mine out for snow removal. with all this stamped concrete now your asking for problems unless you have the proper nylon or rubber slides. Anyway , every tom **** and harry that had a tractor with a bucket on it was out scraping and not charging so I took it easy , got my drive scraped for free. I may need to reseed half my yard as to the sod that got removed but oh well.
Will check the belt tension, thanks No stamped concrete here just one short road where a few folks live. Took the county road crew until yesterday to send a plow. They saw it had a path (made by me) so they turned around and left. I was moving slush off my gravel driveway yesterday just to the wife could get her car out today. My how has around 4700 hours, guess with non-commercial use she should be around longer then I'll be here