My JD 310D seems to have starter issues. It cranks very slow when engine is cold and warm. Almost doesn't start. Both the two batteries test full charge and 850 CCA out of 1000 while disconnected from the connectors. All cables and connectors including ground are in good condition with no corrosion as they are kept well greased. Machine has 9,300 hrs. While cranking with fuel wire disconnected and engine warm the volts drop to about 10.3 volts. What should I do? Open up the starter for inspection?
Does this machine have some form of hydraulic unload for the pump?
That's an open center gear pump so I don't think there's an unload? Operate the hoe bucket extend while cranking and see if it changes speed? Have you checked the voltage at the starter? I assume the 10.3 is at the battery terminals while cranking, what is the voltage from the starter motor terminal to starter body? That's the real test of the battery cables/connections. Otherwise, open it up.
Whenever I have issues like this, fortunately for me, I have some guys at a starter/alternator shop that have been doing that work for a long time and know their stuff. I take the starter to them, they bust it open, and pretty quickly they can determine if it has a problem. If so, bad brush plate, bad armature, they take care of it. If it all looks good, they'll clean everything up and put new brushes in it for small change and let me know the results. Small price to pay and know I'm walking away with a good starter for some time to come and that I should look elsewhere for the problem. But if it's toast inside, that gets addressed as well. Nothing like having some good vendors to work with.
Willie! You stole my post. There's 2 brothers near me that are at least in their upper 50s and worked in the same starter/alternator shop for their father when they were in grammar school. I'd pop the starter off and run it to somebody like them. It'll cost little or nothing if the starter's good, and if the problem persists, you know to look somewhere else.
If it's not a major operation to get the starter out, pull it and have a look inside. With that many hours, I'd guess the bushings that support the armature are worn and the armature is dragging on the windings. You'll see the rub marks when you pull it apart. Put match marks on the body and end plates so you get them back to the same position. Starters are pretty simple; alternators are complicated....
Thanks everyone for the prompt and thorough replies. It all makes sense. I'll let you know what I find.
Everyone has good ideas, but I would make double sure, like Delmer says, that you are not getting voltage drop across the cables. You might need three guys and two voltmeters if your leads aren't long enough, but its the only true way to know for sure. Also, how is the ground(s)? A lot of money has been wasted by not doing a thorough evaluation of entire system. In my opinion, a starter that still works is way easier to evaluate on the machine.
You make longer leads from 16 gauge lamp cord; it's flexible and you can make 20 foot leads, which I did to get to the back of a truck to do voltage drop tests. Just install a alligator clips on both ends. Deon knows how to do a voltage drop test, I posted a link about it 4 years ago and he personally thanked me.
As the lads said check the cables and earths. Also u could try borrow a starter off another machine if available. If u need a new starter I'd fit a geared one it will transform the machine
I have to agree with Delmer on the 10.3 volts sounds fine if it's at the starter, an ammeter put on the battery cable will show amps drawn, unfortunately high amp draw can be shown when there is some sort of hydraulic draw somewhere. The extendahoe valve can be stuck (if you have one) also are there backhoe auxiliaries? Ram kit solenoid not fully closed? Front auxiliaries for a clamshell?? Put every cylinder at half mast and see if anything moves while cranking? Theres even a hydraulic cylinder for steering this model.
If this machine has 9,300 on the original starter it is due for a rebuild anyway. Winter is not kind to starters and at your location it has seen a few. Also cranking hard when warm does not sound like hydraulic unless a valve is stuck and that should be noticeable with the engine running.
do you have a carbon pile battry tester ?? if yes run it at full power at the starter wire wire can seem find but can be broken on the inside specialy on a 20 ish year old machine in our great winter contry or diy er test you can do is run booster cable from battry to the starter in addition of the exsiting wire and see it ther is a diffrance
I had a similar issue. Machine would not start in a southern chill much less freezing weather. I used a lot of ether. A friend used a clamp on ammeter to pin point the problem to the starter in 10 seconds. When cranking, the cables were delivering 450+ amps. This ruled out battery & cable issues. Like JohnDeere7530 said, a new geared starter transformed the machine. PS... when taken apart, the rotor was dragging on the field coils as El Hombre suggests. Commutator was shot too.
I wanted to say that 10.3 might be ok, but didn't want to stick my foot in my mouth. I'm used to 24V systems (Case). Starters usually last right close to forever in a 24V system. Just my experience. Also, good ideas El Hombre on the lead extensions. Please keep us posted on what you find.
I'm curious as to how you tested the battery and what reading you got. Did you test them while someone was turning the engine over also.
Their contact information would be useful. Thanks.
I just tested a battery that was both being unused and while the engine was at idle. Both tests with a meter showed it was a good battery when it was not. It sounds like you went above that.
With this. With batteries disconnected it tells me everything. Could see meter from seat. OEM reman starter on its way. Wife is in Hospital and no time to mess with old one.
Let us know how you make out with the new starter. Pray all is good with the wife.
Ditto. Hope she's doing well.
OK, new starter is installed. Cranks fast, that's good but no power is going to the fuel solenoid. If I jump solenoid, tractor runs. Seems something is not the same in the new starter. There is a sheet that came with the starter telling me there is a change. They say terminal B is a dead terminal. But there was no wire connected to terminal B of the old starter. It's used to hold a plastic cap over the connections. The white wires are.connecter to terminal A. Both starters look exactly the same. Have a look at the photos to see if you guys can help.
The fuel pump solenoid wire may be a separate issue from the starter. I would think the there is an opening in the circuit between the dash (starter) switch and the pump solenoid. You will need to know how the power is routed in the circuit so you can trace it down. There may even be a relay in the circuit. One of the Deere experts will chime in sooner or later.
Yeah, I'll second the opinion that it's not related to the starter. I'm looking at a different "C" backhoe manual, but the same engine, the fuel solenoid comes directly off the key. The neutral, park, and start relays all affect only the starter wire. In neutral? fuse OK? any wire connectors bumped in the process?
Well, I can't imagine how the started switch is related to the fuel solenoid circuit. But it's a strange coincidence it happened at the exact same time as the starter replacement. I've got the electrical schematics so I'll have to look. I can run a new wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid but I need to know if it's incorporated with a low engine oil pressure switch or any other fail safe setup.
Does everything else work that is supposed to when your key is in the on position ?? If the key power comes from the starter terminal you may have a bad connection or broken wire there.
Tinkerer and Delmer, your both right. Delmer, when you mentioned about bumping a connector, I started thinking. If the fuel solenoid power source comes directly from the switch there is no reason for it to pass anywheres near the starter that is where I was working. So how could I have disconnected anything. But then I clued in. I removed and reinstalled the connector at the fuel solenoid so that I could crank it long enough to test the voltage at the starter. So I turned the key to run and went and messed with that connector. After plugging and unplugging a few times it decided to connect again. So I just slid it in and out about 12 times and filled with di-electric grease. Problem solved. I love this forum and all the support you guys offer. Thank:notworthy:beerchug
Well I'm at it again. Backhoe just stopped while dumping snow. Installed a jumper to the fuel solenoid so I could get it back into the shop. Found the cuircut's fuse to have plastic partly melted. Element looked good and fuse tested good with meter but it has obviously overheated probably from a weak connection. I cleaned up the connector and replaced the fuse but just in case I still didn't fix it, I added a ready to plug in, jumper wire. Don't want to be stranded on the street with a backhoe for sure.
I agree with others Deon, not likely your fuel solenoid problem is related to the starter replacement, simply coincidence, your fuel solenoid problem is likely a poor connection somewhere. Especially if I'm reading your post correctly, the engine dies while in operation, meaning, the fuel solenoid looses its power while you're operating the machine, not while cranking. In that the fuel solenoid circuit fuse socket is partially melted indicates something in the circuit is causing excessive amperage draw. Just what is causing that? Who knows. But you have a bad connection somewhere in the harness. I hope you find the source of your trouble.
Yes , like willie said, your fuel solenoid wire has a partial ground somewhere, eventually, if not fixed, it will blow the fuse instantly. Run a new wire to the switch from the pump, that should take care of that problem. You don't want this to catch fire, best to take care of this now.
willie59 & hookedondiesel, If you look at my last post again, you will see that I mentioned that the fuse element was not burnt but the plastic itself was melted. Actually it was melted over one leg (fuse itself, not the fuse panel) and the connection leg was brown/rusty looking. I also noticed that when installing the new fuse that the connector on the rusty side did not feel like it was pinching tightly. My thoughts are that the bad connection caused a resistance that created the heat to melt the plastic fuse casing as well as the failing connection to the fuel solenoid. I also inserted one of those little connectors that fit over one fuse leg when you need to add an accessory to your vehicle. This thickens the leg and gave the fuse a nice tight feeling and hopefully created a solid connection. As for a possible fire, I know old machines can take fire due to bad wiring. That is why I installed a battery cutoff switch on this thing a few years back. It's inside the cab just above the brake pedals where I can easily reach it in an emergency. I also switch it off each time I shut the machine down.
Sounds good, yes a poor connection can cause overheating like you stated. Maybe a good time to check all the fuses for a good tight fit and clean.
I would suggest that you cut that male/female spade connector off that is shown in the bottom photo and solder the splice. Maybe check the actual current draw of the solenoid. What is the lighter gauge wire for that is in the splice at the fuel pump ? I would be suspicious of that splice and the wire itself. There could even be a bare spot on the insulation somewhere on either of those wires. Does the ignition switch feel hot after running the machine awhile ?
Now you have me suspicious too. The solenoid doesn't seem like it should draw that much amperage to heat up anything. Certainly not like headlights or blower motors. I can't think of anything else that would be on the same circuit.
A short to ground would cause a high draw, maybe this is just starting to fray on the wire. It could also be the "feed" side of the fuse thats grounding out slightly causing this.
Took the time to open up the old starter today. It was full of carbon from the brushes and one brush was worn to the point of not touching. After I cleaned everything down, I could not find anything else wrong. Bearings are smooth and tight. If I would of had the time when it was failing I could have saved 400 - 500 bucks. Oh well, all I need now is new set of brushes and I have a spare starter for when my hr. meter turns 18,000 hours. lol.
Might be worth replacing the brushes and clean up commutator then assemble and install on engine to test it under load. If it works leave it on for a few weeks to be 100% sure. Would hate to have you rebuild it and put on the shelf then five years from now in the middle of an important job put it on in the middle of the night in the rain to find out it had other problems!