New member here. My son and I recently bought a 1970 450 case dozer with the 188 diesel serial #3045xxx. The previous owner who is in his nineties said he was out clearing fence rows and it got hot. He thought he had put a hole in the radiator. Parked it in the shed and didn't mess with it for several years. When he tried to start it he couldn't. We found that the kill mechanism in the pump had rusted up and was stuck. Fixed that and it fired right up. We brought it home and started work on some of the undercarriage that needed attention. Got everything together and tried it out for a bit before changing any fluids. After doing light work for 10 minutes it got hot. No hole in the radiator. We brought it back to the shop to investigate. First pulled the radiator hose loose from the top of the water pump. Doesn't seem like the water pump moves enough water so I figured the impellers were probably shot. The pump looked really good so we put it back on. Also installed a thermostat as there wasn't one. Changed the oil and filter and transmission fluid and filter. When I drained the oil there was a small amount of coolant in it. We had checked the oil while we were running it and it was not milky at all. We were running straight water at the time. I first thought head gasket but there are no bubbles in the radiator while running. We had noticed brown gunky build up probably stop leak of some sort on the radiator cap so decided to remove the water plugs in the block and head and flush with water. I figure previous owner put the stop leak in possibly stopping the leak but didn't change the oil. The one in the block was plugged but once we rodded it out water flows great from both. Got everything back together and tried it again and it ran a little longer but then got hot again. Hitting 230 and will overflow radiator shortly thereafter if you keep going. Seems as though it's short on power as well and there is some blow by but not terrible. We're thinking still a head gasket possibly between the cylinders or worse yet cracked head or block. Hate to pull the head as expensive as the head gaskets are. I went through that fiasco with a 430 tractor with the 188. With the info I've given what do you think and what would be your next step to diagnose? Thanks in advance for any help.
It could be the thermostat causing it to get hot. The anti-freeze in the oil could be the o-rings at the bottom of the piston sleeves. The block could have erosion holes in the area where o-rings.
It was getting hot before we installed the thermostat as well. I figured it would run cooler without one but the research I've done everyone says don't run without it. I think we should pull the oil pan and see what's going on before checking the head gasket. Thinking the gasket may be blown between cylinders. I think that would cause the lack of power
That was good information. Do you have an infra-red thermometer or can you get hold of one.? When the engine is both warming up and "hot" measure the temperature at the thermostat housing and the return hose outlet at the bottom of the radiator and compare the two. What temp difference do you have.?
Fuel injection timing can contribute to overheating.
I do not have one but will get one and do that
You know he did have someone else there trying to get it started before we showed up. Maybe he messed with the timing.
You can look closely at the mounting bolts to see if they have been disturbed recently. I suspect something else is the problem tho. Good air flow through the radiator ? Fan belts tight ? Sometimes they can be tight and still slip due being hard and glazed. Radiator fins clean and straight ? No bent fan blades ? If all else fails, you could remove the oil pan and pressurize the radiator, and look for coolant leaking from the cylinder liners or coming down from a cracked head. 188's have a reputation for the block cracking between the cylinders.
Didn't have much time to work on it today but checked a few things. Thought we would check the torque on the head as it looks as though it has been worked in the past. Torque was pretty good except for the front left. It seems to have been stripped out and had oily buildup around it. Odd that when I was working on my 430 case tractor with a 188 the same bolt location was stripped and I put a helicoil in it. We checked the water pump flow again by pulling the temp sensor and putting a rubber hose there. Shot a pretty good stream out and increased with more throttle. We had removed the rocker assembly to torque the head and upon reassembly found two of the tower holes were not in good shape. Couldn't get the bolt seated without reaching torque. We did check valve lash before removing and two were loose. Wondering if that could be a contributing factor in overheating. Checked pump timing and it was right on 8 degrees. Haven't got a temp gun yet.
How loose were the rocker arms ? They should be .014" hot or cold. Pump timing is perfect. Unless there is a lot wear on the drive gears. With the engine off at operating temperature, pressurize the cooling system and see if it holds steady.
Two we're at .20 and a few more were just barely off. It will be next week before I get to need with it anymore.
Messed with this thing a little yesterday. Supposed to get down in the 20's next week so I drained the water and put antifreeze in. Got the rocker stand bolt holes fixed good enough to install rocker assembly and ran the valves again. Seems like everything went good. The oil seems thinner to me but it doesn't seem to be the water that has been in the radiator. When running the oil doesn't get milky at all. If it is in fact thinner I'd say diesel. I can't smell good enough to tell though. Oil pressure gauge pegs out when started. I did purchase a laser temp gun to test. Fired up the dozer no problem and seemed to run good. Took a while to get warm with the temp readings at the thermostat housing and bottom hose being within about 10 degrees. I realized I needed to add more coolant and did. Not sure if that threw off the warming up test. The dozer temp gauge showed 220 or so and I could still hold on to the top hose. Finally the top hose heated up and I took temp readings again. The top hose read 170 and the bottom 97. That reading doesn't seem right if the temp gauge is at 220. No bubbles in the coolant while running. I then pulled the dipstick while running and it was throwing oil out of the tube which it hasn't done before. Don't know if it's too full as the level is over the full mark a bit and was as soon as the oil was changed. It would have done that before though. The dozer was angled downhill a bit. The only other thing that was changed is the valve settings. Could that cause it to throw oil though I've never experienced that if it could?
The valve settings are not the problem. Only two things I know of will cause an engine to force oil out of a dipstick tube is an extremely overfull crankcase or pressure. Pressure can come from several different sources unfortunately.
The temp gauge sender is usually mounted before the thermostat so it stands to reason the reading could be well up there before the thermostat fully opened and you could no longer hold on to the top hose. That temp difference between top and bottom hose is IMO far too great, generally should be around mid/high teens up to a max of 20. If those numbers are kosher to me that sounds like a potential flow restriction issue in the radiator or lack of circulation by the water pump (although you said you investigated that possibility earlier). I'd be interested to hear what others think.
That's a crazy difference.
I don't see how its even possible for the temps to be anywhere near that much different, something strange going on with that.
I'm now wondering if even though the dozer temp gauge showed 220 that the thermostat hadn't opened yet. As it was warming up the top showed 10 to 20 degrees warmer. Those readings were after the top hose got hot to the touch though. Before that I could hang on to it.
DO you know what temperature degree thermostat you installed? If it was a 180 degree than your about right (or close) on the thermo housing temp. Are you spot hitting the metal on the lower radiator neck with the temp gun? I think you're getting a false reading somehow there. There is a possibility, since there has been stop leak installed, that your radiator core is not passing the coolant through efficiently. If this is the case, the water pressure will build up as the engine heats and will overcome your radiator cap pressure setting. This could give you the impression that your engine is overheating when it may not necessarily be overheating. I had this happen on a Cat dozer this summer.
That would be a possible indicator why the temp difference between the thermostat housing and the bottom of the radiator is around four times what it should be - 77 Deg vs 16-18, maybe as high as 20 Deg if you're lucky for a correctly functioning radiator - and the reason I asked earlier if you were sure those readings were kosher. If they are, and you are sure the condition of the water pump is good, then I foresee an internal radiator cleaning in your future.
Two things come to my mind. The interior of the radiator tubes could be partially plugged due to solder bloom. The fan is on backwards. Not likely but should be checked. IMHO of course.
It is a 180 degree thermostat. The readings were both on the steel. I'm not 100% sure it had stop leak in it but it was a brown mud looking build up on the cap. We flushed with water and it is not building up now.
The fan is pushing from the engine out the front. Seems backwards to me but the reading I've done that's correct.
That is the correct direction of airflow from the engine in a forward direction. It's designed so that dust coming off the blade does not get sucked into the engine compartment. However, and it's an important however, installing the fan "backwards" will not change the direction of airflow . What it will do though is reduce the fan efficiency and thus drastically reduce the volume of air flowing through the radiator, so adversely affecting the radiator cooling efficiency. Please post a photo showing the fan and indicate in which direction the engine rotates. From that it can be figured out if the fan is installed backwards or not.
Two comments regarding your photo:- 1. Based on the direction of engine rotation the fan is installed backwards. 2. The radiator is in desperate need of an external cleaning. In the areas marked red there is going to be little or no airflow at all through the radiator. I'm assuming that there are other parts not visible in the photo that will be in a very similar condition.
Airflow cools the system. The coolant just absorbs the heat.
I will check that out. I had sprayed from the front and looked but didn't look at the back. I will swap the fan as well.
To thoroughly clean the radiator often the only sure way is to pull it out. Looks clean from the front but............. Some of the fins appear to be somewhat flattened. Might need a radiator comb to get them to stand up again. In their condtion right now that would also adversely affect the airflow through the radiator even if it was completely clean.
Take the radiator cap off to release any pressure in the cooling system. Then squeeze the lower radiator hose. It should be quite stiff. It should have a spiral of wire in to prevent it from collapsing. That is about as nasty of a fan belt I have seen in a long time. It doesn't even fit the profile of the fan pulley. It has to be bottomed out on all of the pulleys.
Thank you very much Nige and Tinkerer. I will address these things probably Thursday or Friday.
Got the radiator out and the fins were not dirty but flattened. There is also a strip about three inches wide in the middle that has been deleted so there wasn't much open for cooling. Got them straightened out and the fan turned around. Going to flush the radiator while I've got it out and put back together when I find some time.
Look inside the radiator opening and look at the tubes. They need to be nice and clean, especially where they are soldered to the tanks. Quite often a grey colored color encircles the tubes and reduces the opening which chokes off the coolant flow. It is called solder bloom. A radiator shop can remove it in a caustic bath. If it is really bad they will remove the tanks and resolder the tubes.
I will check that out as well. Thanks.
And now your fan is on backwards. Bad Bob
Well I was told on here it was backwards before.
Bob's correct. The fan was on right before. My apologies.
No problem. It's a whole lot easier to change with the radiator out.
Had a little time today so messed with this thing some more. I first changed the fan over. Easy with the radiator out. I then moved to the radiator. I looked in to look at the tubes but there is a baffle of some sort in there that I can't see past. I then took it to the water hose to see how water flows through it. I had it stood up with both hose locations open. Filled through the top until water started coming out the top. Nothing out of the bottom. Wow. I laid it down and kept flushing and chunks of yellowish brown gunk kept coming out. It took some time to fill it so it seems that most of the pluggage was in the bottom. Put some baking soda and vinegar in the bottom hole and let it sit for a while. Flushed that out and have pretty good flow from top to bottom now. No wonder why the thing was getting hot. Got the radiator back in and will finish a few things up tomorrow and give it a try. Got new washers for the fuel lines on the injection pump to put on as well. There were a few leaking.
And now you know why the temperatures you measured at the top & bottom were so far out of whack from what it should have been. It appears that the previous owner used more radiator sealer than he let on.
Ya no doubt. I'm hoping it's cleaned out enough to run without over heating to check everything else out. I'm going to drain the oil again to see if it's got coolant in it. Will probably let it sit with the drain plug out to see if it leaks coolant just while sitting if I do see coolant in the oil. I'm still wondering about the coolant I found when changing the oil. It was antifreeze. I drained all antifreeze and ran straight water in it for a while but the oil doesn't seem to have any water in it as it's not discolored at all after running.
If you successfully manage to remove enough of the gunk from inside the radiator you might just find where the original owner's leak was when it suddenly reappears..........
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I'm wondering why the radiator wasn't taken to a shop to be cleaned. It isn't that expensive to me and would guaranty no issues there. Is it a money thing?
Your problem may return if engine isn't flushed with a decent cleaner. Vetech63's last comment is sooo true. The radiator should have been professionally cleaned if you want a long lasting fix. Especially if you cannot see the top and bottom of the tubes inside the radiator.
That's my thinking as well Nige. I imagine that will be the case if there's a leak in the radiator we can fix it here at the house. Why take it to a radiator shop to be cleaned when I can get it good enough to run to as I stated before to check the engine out. I'm wanting to see if and where I'm getting coolant in the oil and run the machine before spending much on a radiator. If everything else checks out I'll probably replace the radiator as this one has had several repairs done.
There is a baffle or something inside on top that I can't see beyond. I'll take a pic of it later and post. In the bottom I could see tubes running horizontal across but couldn't see beyond them. They looked pretty clean after I flushed. And I'm now getting good flow through the radiator.
Well, just realize you are discussing this stuff with professionals and the way you are approaching this is extremely odd and a waste of time to us and money. The advise is free, the results are on you. Carry on!
I do realize that and am extremely grateful so please don't take that the wrong way. I don't understand the waste of time and money comment though. I took the radiator off and straightened all the fins myself. No big deal taking it out the first time took about 30 minutes and will probably take 15 the next. I'm a seasonal worker and not working right now so I'm either messing around with this kind of stuff, hunting or sitting in the house. Money is not a problem but I sure don't like just throwing money at something if it's not needed. Flushed it out myself to get good flow through and it's back in the machine and not sitting at the radiator shop. The radiator is not in the best of shape and if they professionaly cleaned it I would say it more than likely would be junk for sure and then I would be waiting on a new radiator. As mentioned this is just to get it going to operate and check everything else out. I would like to know if the major parts (engine, torque converter or transmission) need attention first before going and buying a new radiator. This is just an old farm machine that if we get going may see 10 hours a year max. So please tell me how what I'm doing is odd and a waste of time and money. Is it odd because I'm doing it myself and not just taking it to a professional?
Absolutely not. There is no reason why you should take it to a professional (or have one come to you) provided you have the necessary tools & equipment to do the job yourself, coupled with the advice/suggestions, etc, etc, freely available to people such as yourself here on HEF by other members who do this type of work for a living.
I only give advice I never ever condemn or criticize another persons choices. If you are happy with your decisions after a member offers an opinion that differs from yours that is perfectly fine with me.
This site and you guys are great and I really appreciate the help. My son and I are perfectly capable of doing most all repairs to a point. If it comes to it and the tanks have to be cut off to repair we can do that. Done it before not a big deal. But I'm afraid this radiator may be on its last leg with the three inch wide section in the middle already out.
As Paul Harvey used to say on the end of his radio broadcast, "And now the rest of the story" I'm too much of a perfectionist when it concerns repairing my own stuff. I would of had that radiator re-cored before I would ever salvage it by cutting out a section or soldering tubes closed.
I had posted the the three inch delete before. Previous owner definitely didn't take the best care of it. There are definitely different opinions when it comes to repairing something. The proper way and the just get it going way. I think I fall in the middle somewhere lol.
You did indeed and I had to read back through the whole thread a few times before I found it hidden away in Post #32 on Page 2. I didn't spot that comment the first time and it appears that I wasn't the only one. There was also a thumbnail image of the back side of the radiator but it doesn't appear to show where the tubes have been closed off. Can you post a photo.?
Bottom and top pics on the front of the radiator. Looks like just the front row of 5 tubes.
When you said a 3" section I was imagining all the tubes front to back in a 3"-wide section of the core being blanked off. It's only one row of tubes. How many rows (front to rear) are there in the radiator.?
Looks like three. Putting coolant in and had a small leak around one of the hard line connections. Cut the frame away and found this. This is a good one.
Call me negative if you want but I see a replacement radiator in your future.......
I'd say your most definitely right.
I wasn't meaning to offend you. It's just not the way a majority of us would handle this. This reminds me of the Steve Ahlgren thread from a few years ago.
Didn't offend me at all. If a person can't take a little criticism on a Internet forum they probably shouldn't be on it to begin with. I'm just here to learn something about this dozer. I like doing things myself if I can. If it was not mine it would be easy to tell them to just take it to a shop or get a new radiator and that would be that. It's really easy to spend someone else's money. But now the radiator is flowing good and I've got a little soldering to do to then see where the next leak is. Once it's holding I'll run it long enough to check everything else out and then replace with new if needed. If say the torque converter is bad I don't know if the machine would be worth that kind of money to repair. I guess I need to go check this thread out.
Your approach isn't bad if you're not sure if the rest of the machine is worth fixing. I'm pretty deep into my track loader so am almost forced to fix things. On the other hand I know what I have and all the major components seem to be in good condition. Engine, rad., undercarriage, steering clutches and brakes have all been rebuilt. Shop that did the engine said the transmission screen was clean indicating it likely was in good shape. Hopefully I'll just have to do minor repairs to keep it working good. I do consider what a new machine would cost and even then they can have expensive repairs.
Little update: Got the radiator good enough to run a little. Drained the oil and it had just a few drops of water come out before I fully removed the plug. I'm pretty sure that water came from a rain we had and the valve cover bolts were not installed. It was overfilled with oil and I put the proper amount back in. Fired it up and the trans pressure is at just below 200 at all times and the torque converter pressure is about 65 at idle then pegs the gauge with throttle. I was hoping it was slinging oil out the dipstick because it was overfilled but it's still doing it. Seems as though the blow by is much worse out of the dipstick than the valve cover vent. Machine does seem down on power and the engine doesn't seem quite right. Turning at one point my son said he thought it was going to kill it. Went up very slight hill and almost seemed to power out. Then put it up against an old stump to see if it would spin or bog down and and it pushed it but I'd say it was probably pretty soft. I pulled the cover off the top of the injection pump to check out the kill mechanism and it seems to not reset completely when the knob is pushed back in but completely resets when the foot pedal is pushed. Looks to be the way it's supposed to work. All fluids and filters are new.
Well I'm back at it after working on the road for the last 7 months or so. Thought I'd give an update on what's went on the last couple days. Cut a piece out of the tank around the oil cooler connection that I posted a pic of earlier. My son welded in a patch and no leaks. Put it all back together and still ran hot after about 10 minutes. Done a compression test and all cylinders were close at about 350. Looked back through three thread and took Tinkerer's advice and looked at the pump timing. It was set at about 2 degrees. Adjusted to 8 and fired it up. Seemed to run smoother at the start we thought. Took it out and started pushing small trees and brush. Never got above 190 on the temp gauge. Still slings oil out of the dip stick if you pull it while running though. Pegs oil pressure gauge. Thank you Tinkerer and all others for the help.
Some engines will throw oil out the dipstick tube when it is open and the motor is running. Is the breather pipe that goes from the top of valves covers and down the side of the block blowing much vapor out of it ?
Doesn't seem like it is Doesn't seem like it is. I'll look at it a little better tomorrow.
Some blow-by is acceptable. Be sure the tube is clear. I would remove the valve cover and check for crap in the outlet for that downdraft tube.
Now that I think about it I've had the tube off and cleaned it last year. When I bought the dozer it was loose in the valve cover so I put a new fitting in it.
I just asked my son if there was much blow by when he looked today and he says there wasn't. Dozer wasn't warned up yet though.
Final update to this post. I know it's been a while but we just got it right this spring after working on the road a bunch. Issue was overheating. Took the top tank off and this is what we found. Did a good flush and now the dozer runs no problems without overheating. Wouldn't let me post picture but the radiator was nearly completely plugged.
That will do it!
The anti-freeze in the oil could be the o-rings at the bottom of the piston sleeves. Speed Test
Did you find any reason why the oil pump pegs gauge? Mine started doing that a few years back. I was thinking sticking psi regulator in pump??
No I didn't look into it.