I have a 1968 471 and it was rebuilt around 4000 hrs ago. The machine ran great until today. I wanted to install a inline heater core in the bottom of the rad hose. That went fine. I refilled the rad with coolant and let it idle for 30 mins with the cap off to get out any air... I thought I was was good to go work it a bit and noticed a bit of white smoke from exhaust pipe. I thought the fan was spraying the spilled coolant on to the pipe. So I kept going, the temp gauge didnt move off 100. And 5 mins later I stopped and it stalled. I believe it overheated. And the thesostate never opened. After I let it cool down I restarted it . And added more coolant. I pumped the top rad hose to help get fuild though the engine. I got it home and now it smokes like crazy. Please tell me what happened. Is it a head gasket? I think noticed oil leaking from exhaust but could be carbon and antifreeze. Any help would be much appreciated Thanks Ciggie
Air locks in the top of the engine are not uncommon after engine work. If coolant can not circulate the thermostat and temperature sending unit are in a locked air pocket. They are made to function in water not air. The thermostat with not open and the gauge will not tell you the engine is hot. Sounds like it ran hot scoring a cylinder or causing piston rings to loose tension.
Ok thanks that sounds like bad news.. I will monitor oil level and coolant level to see if there are any changes. Thanks Again.
Find a pipe plug or fitting at the highest location. Bleed air from there.
I wish I could say something good about this but any time an engine stalls and smokes when restarted it sure is not a good sign. Tenwheel very well could be right and also I would be very worried about a cracked head. Below is a parts book drawing of a typical 4-71 Detroit water manifold showing the thermostat. Not the petcock circled in red that needs to be open when filling the radiator to bleed off any air in the system. Sometimes the petcock is replaced with a hose to the top radiator tank or even a pipe plug. If it has a hose to the top radiator tank I would remove the hose and make sure air and coolant vents out of the hole in the housing. Same thing if there is a plug in the hole remove and bleed out air till you get a good flow of coolant. Actually now that I look at the drawing there is a second #9 petcock in the end of the cover that the hose to the top tank is connected. I would also open that one to bleed off air and coolant. The one in the red circle would be more critical to get air trapped out of the engine and let coolant reach the thermostat!
If this is the motor from your 666B as in your other post, it would be a 4-53. Completely different motor. The 666B's have a surge tank with a system fill line and a bleed line to remove the air from the system. And Clark changed the thermostat housing to help prevent some of the cooling problems the older machines had. Not saying that it couldn't have air locked, but I would be skeptical. It sure sounds like you seized a piston. In the shop foremans desk at the detroit dealer years ago was a stack of stickers that everyone with a 2 stroke detroit should have. They read something like this MAXIMUM IDLE TIME 3 MINUTES. SEVERE ENGINE DAMAGE MAY OCCUR FROM PROLONGED IDLE TIME. I got involved in two yarder engine failures. Both seized cylinder kits. When asked how long their last road changed was they both answered 2 hours. And they both idled the hole time. Two Detroits overhauled that should have run a lot longer. I'm curious though please post some pictures.
We had an 044 12 V 71 twin turbo that was parked for a bit. It was the donkey doctors habit to start it up from time time just to keep the engine oiled up. Any way one day he started it up and was called away on a call . Long story short he forgot he left it running and that engine ran until the main fuel tank was empty . We put it back to work a short time after that the engine was gummed up but ran for another 5 years after that .
Mid eighties I hauled logs for a company that left their loader run all night. I really expected it to have a meltdown before they finished that job. It was a 4-53T with real low hours, I always assumed that was why it outlived that company and the next company that owned it. The two Detroits that I personally seized were lower motors in rubber mount log loaders. Both happened loading right of way logs. Being always in a hurry, I never wanted to wait a few seconds for the air to build up to release the brakes. Was a costly mistake. I learned two good lessons on the first one. Don't be a cheap gyppo and only replace one cylinder kit. Because within a month you'll be into the motor again replacing the kits you were to cheap and lazy to replace the first go around. In hind sight I would have been money ahead to overhaul it before I put to work. But dad and I overhauled not that long ago? (fifteen years before). One of the two yarders I had mentioned earlier I know was high hours . An 8V92. The owner called me I swear fifteen times that day needing a diagnosis. Black smoke and loss of power. He finally held his phone out and said it's doing it again. You could hear it bog down and this time it stopped. Then panic followed."How are we going to get the carriage down." I told him to just be patient and let it cool down and if your lucky it will fire up. Next call was it's running and we've got the turn in now what. They pulled the motor and I went to the autopsy. They ended up installing another motor. In extreme cases I've seen the piston stick bad enough to pull the top off the liner. The liner gets sucked down the hole and hits the con rod first. Con rod not happy and leaves the block, game over. Still my favorite motor, any size, any application. I still have 7 old 2 strokes and some Series 60's. I've had a few of the other brands but I lean towards the green ones.
I decided to pull the head off and have a look and this is what I found, I have an idea on a repair on the cylinder block. Sending it to a machine shop is not an option. My idea is to machine a thin steel washer that sit flush with block and put an Oring inside the washer so it will still crush when the head goes back on... any other ideas i would love to hear.. Thanks all.
That sounds like a good fix for the damaged block area on that coolant port. What does that have to do with smokes like crazy ( exhaust ? ) and oil from the exhaust?
With all new seal rings that should not be an issue. If anything a very thin ring to go around the O.D. of the water ring might be of some help. I would use copper or brass to compress when the head is torqued.
Could have popped a wrist pin retainer, or if it has Crosshead type pistons it burned out the seal ring between the crown and skirt.
I was having the smoke issues before and realized it was a head gasket, I installed head gasket fix in the rad and that stopped the smoke... but it was still over heating and there was pressure in the coolent system and would empty out of the top of the rad... I just decided to pull the head and have a look... Thanks
Im not sure you have found your problem. Oring failures on the head usually lead to coolant in the oil pan. Compression in the cooling system usually comes from head cracks, or compression leakage in through the seating of the injector cooling tube. Did you happen to flip over your cylinder head and look for cracks? You will usually find them between the valves, and sometimes at the cooling tube itself. Use a good wire brush and clean off the carbon between the valves when you check for cracks. They are usually pretty obvious when you see them.
Ok great advise thanks I will look at the head today Thanks Ciggie
Always hard to diagnose from a distance and even with good pictures can be very much a guessing game. That said, I'm very concerned about the chunk missing out of the block at about 8 o'clock in the last picture. Not sure what caused that and if the damage goes under the liner flange. Also agree the head needs to be inspected very close for cracks. Also I would be checking very close for scoring in the liners from over heating. Been a few years since I had a head off a Detroit 53 or 71 was the question of this being a 4-53 or 4-71 every answered?
This is more than likely a cracked head. Should have been in the first post. This is why it is so hard to help people online when the full story come out in dribs and drabs.
I know it was said no machine shop, but I would do a magnaflux hit on it before making any decisions.
My motor is 453T and I did inspect the heads and there is a crack in them. Not very happy about this... I will also post pics of my block fix. I still need to find a thinker O ring so it will crush when I get the head figured out. Thanks Steve
What is a magaflow fix? Above are pics of the crack and just to clear up the engine is 453 Turbo.. thanks Guys
Wow, that is some crack. There have to be hundreds of these heads getting shipped to China every month for scrap. I wonder if there would be a way to intercept one. Also, assuming the counterbore is OK and the liner o-rings seal. What prevents just filling the damaged area of the block with some kind of epoxy and reshaping it to accept the standard o-ring. All it has to do is hold back the water pressure. Maybe.
Well knowing it is for sure a 4-53 and not a 4-71 like the heading says and the fact it has been run to the point of cracking the head like that at the bare minimum I would be pulling all liners to replace the liner seals. And I would not be putting any faith in thinking that is all that is wrong! I feel the block has a good chance of being bad in the area of that one water port hole! Over 40 plus years working on engine many of them Detroits I never saw damage like that that could be fixed with a dab of epoxy! Also agree bit time with RZucker on getting the full story up front being so important and not getting told the full story at the get go being so frustrating to those trying to help. My opinion on what way to go with this machine would be to start looking for a "good used engine". There are a few people here who have the knowledge and skills to fix this engine but I'm afraid this project is not a good one for a beginner unless they have deep pockets and lots of time and a warm place to work.
That is Maganflux, not FLOW! To put it simple it is a way to find cracks by introducing a magnetic field to a component then sprinkling on some iron powder which will form a line where two sides of a crack come together. With cracks like this head has in it it would be like trying to find a leak in the Titanic, too little too late! That ship already sank!
When you took the head off, what did the o-ring look like that came out of the damaged hole in the block? Was it still stuck to the block or head and still round?
Try Northern Machine in Duluth, Minnesota. They typically have a few used and rebuilt Detroit engines in stock. They also have tons of Detroit parts both new and used in stock. My guess says both head and block should be available. Although 4-53 blocks are getting tougher to keep on hand.
Yes it was still stuck in there and looked like it was still sealed.
I live in Northern Ontario so getting parts from the US is very expensive... thanks for suggestions.
That chunk being gone is wringing alarm bells for me as well. Everything is whispering compression cut and sunken liner. I don't like the oil around the cylinder at the top of the photo nor the black marks between number two and three cylinders.
The reason I asked I've seen that damage before. Your O-ring in my opinion won't work. Not enough sealing surface and it's round. The genuine detroit o-rings I've found to be the best. They are a little thicker than the aftermarket variety. There isn't enough radiator pressure to push your o-ring out where the block is damaged. Your head gasket, the ringon top the liner doesn't look like it was bad. When they are, they will blow out the water o-rings. The o-ring will wad up in the water passage. The water then flows between the head and block and makes its way to the oil pan. Never reuse the compression gaskets. I think your block is ok as is, from past experience. Also your head has been broke for some time. You can tell from the Pitting around the crack. In your original post you said it stalled. My thought is you seized a piston for what ever reason. Not many things will stop or stall one of these when they are running. Detroits have a cast iron piston which runs tighter tolerances than aluminum like other engines. When they have a lot of blowby or get hot the skirt will swell enough to grab the liner. It will usually only leave a shiny spot on the liner. Now that we know you have a 4-53 is it really a turboed engine. The only 4-53T I ever was around was in a 667 with a much bigger radiator. This might be part of your problem. Any history on the skidder? Did someone put in an automotive engine? The truck engine I had used a much differant thermostat housing. Pictures? My thinking is an overhaul is needed. Might not sound easy but the engine needs to come out. You won't have much luck trying to overhaul it in the machine. The proper skidder engine also has a really deep cast iron oil pan which won't drop down far enough to give any good access. Good luck.
Actually, the right side of the #3 liner bothers me more. Looks like tin transfer from the piston.
From your picture of the block I wouldn't be afraid of it. Everything looks normal and pretty clean. Better than some I've seen. The block damage is most likely from dropping the head in a past overhaul. Seen it done! normally you would leave the governor rack rod in and rotate the head off the rod, very awkward disaster waiting to happen. Here's the nit picky stuff. appears to be an older engine by the canister fuel filter. and the perimeter seal goes in with the green towards the outside. Other than that I like the looks of it. Can't see the liners but I'd toss em.
I feel like this is going to be another one of those disaster threads. Detroits, especially the 53 series, have more moving parts than any other engine. It not only takes knowledge to build these...…..it takes the proper tooling. If your engine got hot enough to crack the cylinder head it has flattened the liner seals. From what I've seen so far, it looks like an inframe overhaul candidate (providing the oil pan can be removed). Keep in mind, the work on the replacement of the needed parts isn't the tough part...…..its the timing, fuel rack settings, buffer screw setting, injector heights, valve bridge adjustments, etc...….that are critical to the proper operation of your engine. The type of governor will determine how you do your fuel rack settings, whether it a double or single weight, variable or limiting speed, open or closed linkage. If your up to the challenge then I'm game as I'm sure there is more experience here than you will find in a service manual...…….but a service manual would be mandatory to me before you get started. Just know this can be tedious work, and getting the set up right can be very frustrating without having experience on Detroit engines. If you try to shortcut this, it WILL bite you in the ass. So with all this being said...……….do you accept the challenge? I would expect to spend 2K on parts and tooling to do the job yourself...…..maybe more. If you elect to replace your engine make sure you get the proper build. These engine can look alike but they can be built in many different set-ups and rotation can be either left or right.
Very true! Detroit's are almost like the Lego Kit of engines, they can be assembled in many different ways. Only problem is some parts will work in various formats but there are also many parts that are special for other configurations. Timing gears and cam shafts are just two I can think of of the top of my head. I ran into a problem with a 6V-53 that someone else rebuilt for us. Got it ll installed in the Grove Crane and fired right up but had no oil pressure. Checked everything I could think of on outside then dropped the cast iron pan, not easy in frame! Turned out guy had installed oil pump in front cover for cooler on left where this one had cooler on right side of engine! Even more fun was pulling front cover in frame to install pump the right way! And this was a guy who had worked on Detroits for years but mostly 71's not the 53's!
Ive been waiting for another STEVE AHLGREN thread. Lets DO this!!!!
My advice would be to replace the engine and save the old one for spare parts. I think your block needs more than a band-aid.
Thanks for the info, I was told the engine had a 353 in it originally and they rebuild this motor 4000 hrs ago approx and installed a 453 turbo.
I will answer more later I am busy working on a fix for the head... Thanks All
I would strongly suggest NOT doing anything with or about the head till you get deeper in to this engine or you may be pouring money down a hole that will be getting deeper every day! I was told the engine had a 353 in it originally and they rebuild this motor 4000 hrs ago approx and installed a 453 turbo. I can only guess that this is a poorly worded statement. Did you mean to say the machine(what ever it is) originally came with a 3-53 Detroit and when that engine failed for some reason someone decided to replace the 3-53 with a 4-53T engine? So they installed an engine with 33% more displacement and added in a turbo on top of it? Does this application need that much extra power? I know every machine needs more power but one could question that you could be looking for more problems down the road if some other components are able to handle the extra power.
Yes it was poorly worded as I was rushing to reply to you. Your statement is correct about the engine swap. The background story as follows: The machine is a Clark 666B skidder built in 1968 from what the Vin # on the machine displays. The shop I purchased it from claims they had rebuilt this motor approximately 4000 hrs prior to me purchasing it. The machine ran perfectly for me i had put about 50hrs max on it. Then I had a bright idea of putting an inline ( lower rad hose heater) in the machine because the temperature in my location is between -15 and - 30 Celsius. I am from Canada Burrrrrrrr!!!!! It was hard to start in the cold even with a bit of starting fluid. After installing that inline heater I filled the rad with new 50/50 coolant. I let it idle for a while to make sure all the air was removed from the system and I was reving the motor every so often. The temp gauge didnt seem to come up but it was cold out so I didnt think much about it. After a while I took it for a drive and it overheated. I hope this brings you up to speed on my problem.
Little history on the 666 line. The 666B thru 666D series skidders typically had a 4-53 non turboed when new. There was also a 667 that had the 4-53. In the 666D there was a Cummins option. I have never seen or heard of a 666 with a 3-53 in the states. The smaller 653 skidders normally had the 3-53 engine. The tranny's were the bulletproof Clark transmissions in all of them and the rear ends had heavy planetary axles in all of them. I would not be to concerned about the extra horsepower of the turbo.
Thanks for your input as I am only going on things I was told. I enjoy learning everything I can about this machine.
I know where a 4-53 non turbo low hours on overhaul is. We are a long way apart but that is what freight companies do. If you decide you need one let me know. I have no interest other than putting the two of you together for free. It was to replace a very old 4-71 and later found out it is a 4-53 and just will not work out.
Might seem to be bit of a gamble but is price is right that could offset the shipping costs. The main thing I would want to be sure of if talking about buying a replacement engine is how it is configured. As I said before Detroits are like a box of Legos. They can be configured in many different ways. Just some examples: And note this only shows the major parts, it does not even take in to account what type of governor, where the oil cooler is located and so on. It's not like pulling a Chevy 350 V-8 out of a 1972 half ton and slipping it into another 1972 half ton. And don't trust the model numbers to be an accurate way to determine how the two engines are set up! Keep in mind you are dealing with an engine and machine that is 50 years old and no telling how many people have done what to it or the possible replacement engine in that half century! Wish I could be more positive but just feel it is important to know as much as possible up front. I'm sure many here recall a recent thread on a Cat engine where part of the failure of a repair was, at least according to the dealer, caused by using the rocker arm assembly from an older engine on the cylinder head of a newer engine. Just because it is Cat Yellow or Detroit Alpine Green does not mean it is the same thing!
Every 53 Ive seen has been a N/A, so Ive never seen a turbo on one. The builds are different in a turbo engine. Is this really a turbo engine? ……...or is the blower being called a turbo?
This engine has a blower and a turbo.
I am going to see what I can do with what I have as it has to get out of my shop this weekend, if it works great, if not it will sit out side until spring, i only use it for my personal firewood. I am going to remove the two valves and Tig weld the cast iron block smooth it out and rebuild the engine and hope for the best.
Well best of luck and let us hear how it works out. At the very least find some place on the water manifold and or thermostat to bleed off air to be sure it has a fighting chance to live. How much wood do you burn that you need a Clark 666B skidder to haul it out of the woods?
Thanks and I will keep posting to let everyone know how things go... 100 cord a year... I live on 400 acres of hardwood bush.. these are my test piece tig welding cast.
100 cords. You heating a big shop? And I thought I was bad using 30 to 40 cords. a winter I use a 666D grapple behind a old 411B Hydro-Axe to bring mine in.
That sounds like our place . Late January & burning wood and LP gas . Local Co-Op propane driver asked if we were still drying corn ? Nope, just heating the old house LOL !
As if you have not already gotten enough advice, it might be wise to address the radiator esp after the head gasket in bottle.
I got a new cap for the rad and I have to motor back to together and had it fire but need to bleed fuel lines and should be good to go , cross my fingers...
Make sure you have 3 ways to shut that engine down in case of a runaway.
There was a Head Repair service here in the states A GOOD one, called Chapin Cylinder Head, Chapin IL. May look them up see if they can handle Out Country shipping. They had a good warranty and repair service, used them for years but have not for quite some time.
Three ways? 1: Intake plate or flap. 2: Vise grips in rack. 3: Cut fuel line?
YES! …..except I will just clamp off the fuel line and starve it.
Unless is pulling engine oil!!! AIN'T Nothing to stop it then!
an explosion......LOL
If that appears to be going to happen run on a line parallel to the crank shaft not at a 90º to the crankshaft. And don't come back just because it gets quite as it may take a few seconds for whatever went up to return to ground and you don't want to be there to catch them parts!
How about dumping the fire extinguisher into the air filter intake?
That might slow it down for a millisecond. Detroits move a lot of air normally. If it's running away on oil... All bets are off. A fire hose might stop it. Saw a 3-71 that went down bubbling in a lake, bent 2 rods and was running again the next day.
Might be tempted to do that with a CO2 extinguisher but not sure I would want to dump a dry chem one down the intake. If you did I would think a major tear down would be the next step.
Isn't that what pressure washers are for!? LOL
Yes, after engine is completely disassembled down to bare block! I would not suggest using the pressure washer to clean the inside of the intake while engine is running. See above post by RZucker!
Even the CO2 leave a residue, Been there DONE that, ain't fun!! As to the pressure washer, hydrostatic lock is NOT pretty!!! especially at HIGH speed RPM!
I just meant into a paper type air filter. Heard of it but never done it. Just asking.
Is really ugly when performed. Took a week of cleaning to get what the CO2 either had In it or displaced by using it out of a 6v53, just NASTY! It did have a oil bath AC on it though. Could see it effectively snuffing the DD runaway, but also collapsing the instantly frozen paper filter into the intake.
I would guess that anything you may resort to in an attempt to stop a run-away situation can have results that may not be totally perfect. Then again compared to picking shrapnel pieces like connecting rods or sections of flywheel out of your face they may look good in the end. Wondering if the CO2 froze the oil in air filter and the restriction caused gunk in filter base to get sucked up and into engine. I know first hand how getting a bit too much water in the oil of a running engine can whip up some nasty stuff that is like filling crankcase with grease. That was either a 3 or 4 -53 running a water pump. Seal on the water pump the engine powered had failed and was spraying right at the rear seal of the engine. I seem to recall the low oil pressure safety switch shut it down before any major damage.
My suspicion was it displaced a considerable amount of that oil and grime locked with the mesh element, was pretty much still full(minor loss) on clean up of the mess. There was a whiteish material strewn throughout that little DD when I did tear it open, air boxes, liner ports, crusted cooked to the heads, intake piping, did not think they had powder in them but this was like EVERYWHERE.
If a Detroit runs wild from sucking engine oil why would shutting the air off via a board, estop, or other means not stop it. I understand that shutting the fuel off would have no effect. It can't possibly get enough air from the pan with the oil to keep running wild could it?
It will, if the E-stop is working or you have the blower bonnet off to use the board. A lot of the later engines had spring loaded rack levers and no E-stop flaps. Mostly the 92 series engines, but I have seen 71's with that setup too. Had a 6V-92 in the shop once that had those wonderful check valves on the airbox drains that left a steady pair of oil streaks on the floor when I backed it out. The oil rings were shot and it would push oil out the liner ports and build up til the airbox pressure open the check valves. Pulled it right back in and gutted the check valves so it could blow clean. Just an old farm truck.
Oh yes it can and they would, suck the seals on the blower shafts, and any point they could to push enough air into the cylinders to light them up. Saw a few old engines with tired seals guy go to shut them down and do that just chugged on until ate enough oil to dry the block out and seize or just get cold enough to die.
I think the key here is that with failed seals it would be possible to get enough air to keep the engine running but not enough to get a true run away going up to wild RPMs and literally exploding. I would have to think that in the vast majority of cases the E-stop will do it's job and kill engine before major damage. I would hope no one would remove the "blower Bonnet" and depend on using a board to kill the engine! I know I would not want my hands getting that close to those spinning rotors in a blower. To lazy to check the spec's but believe the blower(s) are running at a 2:1 overdrive compared to engine speed. So at the rate the engine might take off in an runaway situation you would be looking at those rotors spinning at 5,000 rpm or more. Not sure how much of your arm they would eat before killing the engine!
Seen one 8V71 eat a shop service manual and NOT flinch!! That engine was fresh overhauled and the guy ran the rack wrong, ended up could NOT shut the fuel off so threw his 71 series shop manual in the blower, was gone in a blink!! Another guy covered it with a section of plywood and killed it as the tech cleared the shop door running out. Engine was re-rebuilt but had to have the blower replaced and a lot of the sub structure gone thru that had not been(me working it), ate a LOTS of Stuff including having to get a reground crank and two rods(spun two). Previous mechanic did not stay to finish the job, loaded tools and left. ALWAYS keep the Emergency head on the blower on a restrart after working the engines. The 53 I had run away the E'flap was eroded in the pin retainer holes YEARS earlier and been INCONVENIENTLY discarded(AHEM, by me).
I know for sure that an 8v 92 open turbo end will remove fingers instantly.an old friend of mine somehow got two of his removed with the engine turning about 1800. am told he was tuning it up and slipped
It is tempting to fire something up before all the safety gear is installed but that first start is the most important time to have the flap available, beats throwing various shop items through the engine until you find one that stops it.... I have heard the turbo/fingers thing also. I have gotten my fingers sucked into an open intake once or twice as well but no moving parts.. What gets you is how once the suction takes hold it gets stronger pulling your hand in more forcefully and kind of feeds back on itself.
Hi all, so what's going on now? Success? Failure? I wait with baited breath. Any fingers missing?
Might be waiting for bandages to come off before typing a reply? Hope that's not the case!