Tractor ran when I bought it but he head was leaking. I rebuilt the top end and it ran great the first time for around 30 mins, had to shut it off because the coolant was overflowing. Temp didn't go into the red though. Started it again and saw fuel leaking at the injectors, disconnected and reconnected the injector fitting and started it again. This time it didn't run but for a few minutes and dies. turned the fuel shutoff at the tank off but when I turned it back on, it became loose and leaks. I replaced the valve gasket o-ring and it no longer leaks. After I bled the air out and got fuel coming out the filter I started her up again but this time it only runs for 15 seconds at a time. it is now taking longer to start. I am certain the injectors are getting fuel. Filter never runs out of fuel either. Checked the return last night and it was not blocked so I think the pump is ok. Don't think the flex ring is broken.
Is the return sending fuel from the pump all the way to the tank? If you see it at tank it could be from the injectors.
It should. I did blow compressed air into it. I started the engine with the injector pipes off and it is shooting fuel out like it did from day one. It can't possibly be the IP.
I'm about to give up on this thing. If the IP was bad would it shoot fuel at all?
I wasn't thinking bad pump. Have you taken the return line loose at the pump and tried running it with the fuel just pouring out of the return fitting at the pump? A lot of times when I see an engine that starts and shuts off, it is a clogged return line, or a clogged fitting at the pump. You have to have fuel running out of the pump at the return. A clogged fuel filter or pickup tube can do it, but it's usually on the return side
Yup I have run it that way. Took fittings off and the one with the screen is clear. The return is clear also. Filter is new but I did put the old one back on when I saw crud in the new filter. Did the same thing once it was bled.
If the filters are getting dirty that quickly, check the fuel tank for contaminates. The outlet in the tank my be plugging. New filters are expensive , but to reuse a dirty one isn't going to help the situation.
You're lucky, some people have problems that show up every ten hours or more, this should be a piece of cake to diagnose. I don't have any better suggestions for what is causing your problem, but with a machine that has been sitting I'd run it off a temporary tank until it runs right, then hook back into the original tank. One component at a time if needed.
Actually a problem that shows up a bit later usually means the filter. At least in my experience. This thing dies right off but if I keep the start on it runs. I'm wondering if it's compression. I don't see how though.
I drained the tank and most everything should have gotten out. If it was clogged it would run for a longer than a second. I'm running out of ideas. :Banghead:Banghead:Banghead
This doesn't have an electric fuel solenoid does it? Any chance you could post a picture of the pump? Does it have any smoke or mist when it's cranking or when it dies? I can't see how it would start and then die from low compression. NEVER assume you've got all the crud out of the fuel tank, I'd still be hooking into a boat tank to test, or teeing a pressure gauge right before the injection pump, or use the priming pump lever to diagnose if you have pressure or vacuum when it dies.
It has great flow from the tank. It's the roosa master pump. There is smoke, white and gray during cranking and when it dies. I would have to find the right adapter if I'm going to hook it to another tank. It's all metal piping, no rubber. I was thinking of testing the injectors. Could clogged injectors cause this same issue?
OK, I'm stumped. Does it go rr, rr, rr, rr, rr, or rr, wawawa, rr when cranking???
I am too! more like wawawa. When it started having issues was when I tried to fix the leak at the pipe to the injectors. I removed number 2 and 3 and reconnected. The leak went away and it ran for a couple minutes and dies. Now it won't stay running for more than a few seconds at a time.
How does it sound the few seconds it runs ? What does the exhaust look like those few seconds ? It has to be running out of fuel in order for it die. Is the engine shut off cable pushing the shut off lever completely to the run position ? The parts book says # 12 is a filter did you check it or clean it ?
Smoke looks grayish when it's running. Sounds weak though like it's not firing on all cylinders. If I hold the starter button it continues to run. That's why I was thinking injectors being bad. The shutoff cable is pushing all the way. I did clean the strainer/filter at the pump.
Go back to the begining. What was involved in the 'top end overhaul'? Was the head gasket blown? Was the head surface ground? Were the valves ground & lapped in? Was the block checked for trueness? Was cylinder protusion / height checked? Have you checked compression at any time? If you have fuel, you have no heat/compression to ignite it.
Yes it was blown but still ran. Head was ground. Block was checked for trueness. I replaced one valve, lapped in. I lapped the others too. Cylinder protrusion was checked. I don't have the adapter to check for compression, but that's next on the list. Engine did feel a bit looser at the flywheel but isn't that to be expected after running it for 30 mins?
I think you need to sit in the shade for a while and have one of your favorite drinks. Then, go back to it and don't assume you have fuel getting to the pump or returning to the tank. I know that we're on the outside looking in, but we don't know in what order you have done something that might affect something else. I think mitch504, Delmer, and Tinkerer have thought of everything that I could think of first, and it probably is fuel related. I don't think you're starting at square one and going down the line and eliminating the causes in order, but more jumping around here and there. Maybe it's just me. The reason I say that is from comments you made like when you drained the tank and decided it should have got everything out , or when mitch504 asked if the return line was sending fuel back to the tank and you decided it should since you blew compressed air through it, or when you put the old fuel filter back on when you saw crud in the new one and decided that couldn't cause the problem. Here's what I mean: start at the supply line and make sure it's not clogged or sucking air somewhere, put another new filter on it, and make sure the pump is able to return the fuel. On the supply line: You said you changed the o-ring in the shutoff valve but we don't know when you determined you had good flow from the tank. You could have a broken shut off valve or you could have clogged the supply line with a piece of broken o-ring when you changed it. Check the flow at the pump, then blow back thru the line with compressed air. It could be something in the tank moving around or floating that's shutting off fuel flow. Or, it could be that you didn't get the shutoff valve sealed when you repaired it and now it's sucking air. Or, it could be that you're out or low on fuel in the tank. On the filter: Put a new one on, nuff said. You can't see the filter media. On the return line: I'm guessing that those lines on the injectors that were leaking were the return lines. Have you checked to make sure that you didn't stop them up when you fixed them? There's a fitting on top of the Roosa Master pump on the return line that has a glass ball in it in some applications. If your flex ring is coming apart inside the pump, it will clog it up. Remove the fitting from the pump after you KNOW that your supply line and filter are eliminated as the causes and see if it runs then. I saw this early this morning when I first read your post and it stuck in my head: Why would coolant suddenly start overflowing after 30 minutes? White or grey smoke out of the exhaust can be fuel related or coolant in your combustion chamber. On edit, alrman posted when I was pokin at the keyboard with two fingers.
I agree I do need to take a step back. I am 100% sure fuel at the supply is fine because I took the connection off at the filter and fuel started flowing nonstop. Lots of it. The leak was the line to the injectors not the return. I can see fuel coming out of the return just fine. There is no check valve in the return fitting at the pump, so nothing could get clogged there. Coolant overflowed because the cap was off.
I wish it was that easy! These are metal lines so you'd have to bend it in order to hook it up to the wrong injector. Ok I'm about to check out the injectors in the freezing weather. ointhead
So I was betting with my coworker today that it wasn't the injectors clogging. Just cranked the engine over with the injectors exposed. they are all spraying just fine. compression? I'd do a compression test but I can't find an adapter for the injector hole.
A quick Google search came up with the adapter. http://www.toolsource.com/diesel-engine-compression-test-adapter-case-p-58489.html Here is the gauge ; http://www.toolsource.com/diesel-compression-tester-p-58474.html
I have a gauge I need the adapter, holy crap its 65 bucks! thanks for finding that. think I've spent enough money on this thing. whew thank god for ebay, found one for 47
The adapter is here for $33.06 plus shipping. http://www.autotoolworld.com/product.asp?itemid=166633&gclid=CI3enZ2c5LoCFQQSMwodQWYAGw Just curious; does the engine have much crankcase blow-by when it is / was running ? Maybe it would be a good idea to recheck the head bolt torque. Also the valve lash.
I'm just thinking about the simplest things first...and I don't know your level of experience with these tractors. If it's freezing temperatures, are you using some type of starting aid? You'll need something like starting fluid, coolant heater, glow plugs, or gasoline soaked rag to the intake to get the engine started. Maybe that's why it wants to run in the start position because the engine isn't warm enough to completely fire on all cylinders.
Ordered from ebay last night, only 5 difference and it's closer. Actually there was a lot of blow-by. I was going to recheck the torque later today. Valve lash is good, checked it two different times. It didn't break in long enough for me to retorque per instructions.
I was thinking that too, it was almost freezing temps when I started it. I thought diesels ran even in freezing weather. At least in my experience. It sounded better last night ran for a whole 15 seconds.
If it has become addicted to using ether and it has a lot of blow-by as a result of it, it may take a fairly big shot of it to keep it running. Don't get carried away and lock up the engine . I have been through that very situation. I didn't need a compression tester, because when I purchased the machine I could roll the engine over with the fan. It had very little compression.
Yeah, if you can get em started. If you can keep it running on quick sniffs of ether for 20 seconds or so and it dies when you quit the ether, that should tell you if it's a fuel problem or not. You could be getting aerated fuel.
crapola...checked the valve lash again, one was way off. drained the oil pan found thick oil at the bottom and some gold flakes about 1/8 inch or more. it could be bearing material? Should I even bother checking the compression or just disassemble? Gauge is coming tomorrow.
The gold flakes are most likely brass bearing material. Possibly even the camshaft bearings. Sounds like an overhaul kit will be needed along with some machine work on the crankshaft.
I think its the two rod bearings that were a bit tight, it was within spec at .0015. Starting to think plastigage isn't that great. It didn't spin all that easy with the last two I put in. I thought it was odd but my buddy said it would loosen up...boy it sure did. Going to remove the pan tomorrow and check the damage. I wonder if the piston hit the valves and that lowered the compression?? Not going to check compression tomorrow of course.
Looks like I need a new crank. Time to do a complete rebuild which will include engine removal. Boy that's gonna be fun! Bearing ALL ate up. Not a thing left on the rod. In lil pieces!!! This was the cylinder with the loose valve lash. It will of course take out the valves and that would explain the poor compression. So my guess is oil wasn't getting to the bearing at all. Haven't looked at the others yet. So i guess I'll need a gantry crane, doubt an engine hoist will reach it.
I see we are now getting the complete story on the problem. Too bad we didn't have all this information from the start. Anyway; new rod bearings should never be tight. Your buddy was right , they will loosen up. But it is guaranteed crankshaft and bearing damage the first time the starter is engaged. You should remove the camshaft and check all the journals and lobes for damage from all the metal that was circulating throughout the engine. If I were doing the overhaul I would measure all the lobes for proper height. It is not unusual for one or more lobes to be way out spec. Camshaft bearing replacement is a must do now. An engine hoist should be able to handle the removal. If any of the pistons hit a valve you should be able to see the marks on the piston. Even if you don't see any marks, the valves should all be checked for straightness in a valve grinding machine.
This thread scares the crap out of me.......I always wonder how long my 207 is going to last me. It smoke a crap load of white smoke when it's cold but clears up when warm. My coolant stays full. Take lots of pics of the engine removal and tear down etc.
White smoke when the engine is cold is quite normal Utahjd1. Lots of pictures during an engine tear-down is mandatory if a person has little experience with a specific engine. Things like pistons, many times have front or rear specific positions to the block. Connecting rods are the same. If a connecting rod is reinstalled out of the correct position on many engines it can result in NO oil going to the cylinder walls or in some cases the piston pin. A number or letter stamping set should be in everyone's tool box, for those reasons.
That would have made a little knocking noise when it happened. Nobody wants to have to redo their work and to add insult to injury, pay considerably more than what it cost the first time around.
Actually no the one that the bearing disappeared on wasn't tight at all. I rotated the engine just fine with it installed. It spec out at .0025 which is in the middle of the spec. I don't think it was getting oil. I'm just going to trash the crank. I doubt the crank survived. Won't even bother to measure just get a new one. Engine hoist, no it can't the loader is in the way. I don't know of a way to take it off easily.
It never did. I had someone with me too. I knew something was up but people kept telling me it's air in the fuel. Gotta trust my instinct next time. I knew something was broken. I've just made it worse by cranking it some more. It doesn't help that I didn't have a compression tester, well I will later today. You know I was going to pull the engine and do it the right way but I listen to other people and that's what I get.
I don't understand, in post #34 you said you had a tight bearing but your buddy said it would be fine. But here you are saying the engine rotated just fine. ??? In regards to using an engine hoist; Yes,an engine hoist will work. Trust me. Knock the four pins out of the loader bucket and remove it. Raise the hoist any way you can, all the way up and block both hoist cylinders with heavy angle irons. I would advise clamping the angle irons to the cylinder rods for added safety. An engine hoist is much handier and safer than any type of crane or chain hoist hanging overhead. Especially when you are lining up the engine flywheel and clutch plate when reassembling them. If you don't think it was getting oil, check very closely for leaks in the suction side of the oil pump. Maybe the oil pump cover gasket is leaking.
Sorry it was rod 1&2 that were tight, .0015. Rod 3&4 were .0025 and didn't feel that tight at all. When I took 3 apart, the bearing wasn't even there, pieces ended up in the oil pan. I haven't checked the rest yet but I'm sure there will be at least one more that's gone. Gotcha on the hoist! Going to attempt it sunday hopefully.
That thick oil you found at the bottom is engine oil and antifreeze mixed from your head gasket that was blown that had been leaking past the rings and settling in the pan over time. You did say you found that when you pulled the pan the first time when you put in the new rod bearings and measured the clearance, right? Along with the bearing material? Antifreeze is hard on bearings. Someone ran it for quite a while with that gasket blown. I don't understand how the rod bearings were oiling before you measured the clearance?
No sorry for the confusion. When I bought it the headgasket was leaking oil and i found sludge at the bottom of the oil pan. This is hard stuff. I rebuilt it two weeks ago and after 30 mins running and multiple cranking has destroyed the bearings. I think the sludge did it. i should have done a complete overhaul. Looks like it died of oil starvation since only the number one bearing survived (close to oil pump?). Pump checked out when i measured clearance before installing. Lesson learned. It will now get a full rebuild, new cranks, acid dip the block, etc etc. I think the head might have survived, will know tomorrow.
nc73; You probably are aware of the the oil pump installation procedure. Just a reminder that it is real important to shim it squarely with the block to get the proper gear backlash. If you don't have a dial indicator the back lash can be measured with a feeler gauge. You would have to cut the gauge to fit between the teeth. Also there may be timing marks on those teeth, I am not sure about that. If it doe's it is for engine balance. This is one of many situations where a service manual is a must have to do the overhaul correctly. Keep us posted on your progress !
Yup I do have a manual and aware of the pump install procedure. Going to install an oil pressure gauge too!
I've got a question for those that have done the rear oil seal replacement. The manual calls for an alignment tool. I can't find the tool. Is there another way to do this? Just getting everything ready.
One of the pros on HEF may reply with a different answer. But, here are my thoughts on it. I have done this very same kind of installation myself. I don't see why you would need an alignment tool for the rear seal. It looks to be a simple press into the mounting plate installation. Make note of how far into the plate the original seal is. Actually it would be kind of hard to not get it square into the holding plate. If I remember correctly there are dowl pins to ensure proper alignment of the assembly.
I don't know why the manual made a big deal out of it, especially since I can't find the tool any where. Thanks for the info! I have everything ordered. Engine mostly stripped. I'll pull the block out this weekend.
Ok so I'm done with the engine. All assembled but when I went to double check the clutch, upon closer inspection, it's got about 1mm left. Technically 3.7 mm on each side if you don't count the metal shell it sits in. If it wears down to the metal I'm thinking the flywheel and plate would be toast. Am I seeing this right? So need to get new plates, clutch disc and have flywheel machined. When it rains, it pours. ointhead
Rebuild finally done and engine ran for 30 mins today without incident! I was so relieved. I hooked up an oil pressure gauge just in case. I have no idea what the problem was the first time around but I didn't take any shortcuts this time around. I replaced 3 rods, bought a reman crank, all crank bearings, oil seals, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, piston pins, new clutch, machined flywheel. Not counting piston sleeves and rings that survived the first time around. I'm now ready to dig some ditches!
Good job NC73 ! Thanks for posting your final results. Unfortunately there are many members that come to HEF for extensive help and never let us know the final outcome of their problem.
Thanks! I put another hour today with the help of my buddy who taught me how to operate the darn thing. Time to retorque the heads and adjust the valve lash again. It's my first top and bottom end rebuild.
I wanted to start a new post but for the life of me cant see where to do it, Have read everything, tells me all about posting exept how?? anyway, I parked my 480c a little over a week ago on a uphill grade, week later I wont start Has always started with a shot of S fluid. Kicks out the pup, piuff wt/grey some as usual, spary some starter and it pops a time or two, thats it. I drained the filters for a rfew sec, looked good. I did replace both and was getting good fuil up to the inj pump fitting. Dont see amy place to bleed on the inj pump. Hve not tried the return to the pump, will today. Cant see why sitting a week has coused a problem, It has sat for months and started right up. Was running great when I parked it. Any sugestions?
Did you remove the whole return fitting from the top of the pump? or just take the line off. the restrictor fitting is the one that plugs and gives the symptoms you describe. You say that you are getting good healthy flow from the line while cranking and that concerns me as to the condition of the pump.
No I said was getting good flow TO the pump. I just got back from taking off the return line from injectors to pump, nothing coming out I cranked it for a short time and no returning fuel I was talking to a friend last nioght who sid try cracking the lines one at a time from the pump but needed someone to crank while I did it as would draw in air if stopped cranking before closing the line. He said he did it at the injector end, you kmnow if it maters which end? I rigged a swt to start it while doing the procrdure, and it right away managed to short itselfto grnd and nearly started a fire before I could get around and pull it off I hAVE to leave now, gone rest of the day, what do you suggest next? Tnx, Charlie Heathco (cheathco)