HI Guys, I've been looking into getting a larger truck to move my equipment and for general hauling (thinking of a rollback (can pull different equipment onto the truck like a sealcoat rig, hydroseeder, container (for dry enclosed transport), hauling cars . hauling scrap, hauling building materials....well you get the point)... Anyways, I wanted a truck that would gross at just under 26K so my helpers can drive it without having to get a Class B license. While there are many engines out there, I noticed that the most popular ones in the under 26K class seems to be the Cummins 5.9 , the DT 466 and the 3208. While I am very familiar with the 5.9 ( have (3) 3/4 ton Pickups, (1) 1 ton dually, and a Freightliner MT45 Step Van) I wanted to keep an open mind concerning the other engines as well What I am most interested in is durability, fuel mileage, and reasonable cost of repairs / parts. While I know the other engines are larger in displacement, I know that the Cummins can be easily "turned up" easily and cheaply should I want / need more power (Of course I will get a pyro). So, assuming similar trucks and truck setups (trans/ rear end ratios etc...) , which would get the best fuel mileage?.... which has the best durability?.... what are the relative costs of replacing things / rebuilding things like Filters, Injectors, Injection pumps, cost to rebuild etc... Thanks in advance for your input. Andrew
3208.............no. DT466 and the 5.9 are both good engines and are pretty similarly designed with one major exception. The 466 is a sleeved block which means its rebuildable. If you score a cylinder in the 5.9 you're looking at getting a new block or completely stripping yours to have a machine shop sleeve it. Personally I'd go with the 466. More displacement and no significant difference in fuel consumption over a 5.9 Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Try and never forget …. "There Is No Substitute For Cubic Inches" ……. an 'ol trucker told me that MANY Years Ago ! ….. How True that is !!! If you a entertaining a DT466, don't forget to look at his bigger brother the DT530, some of them were semi electronic and were able to be cranked up with a digital tuner or a chip. The Cat 3208 was an amazing engine for it's time, you could find them in pretty much anything that had wheels under it …. you will hear as many good things as bad about them ….. But they are pretty much an obsolete engine by todays standards, I still own one it still is a strong runner, as long as the batteries will turn it over it will start no matter how cold it is outside ! ….and when the day comes that it dies it will remain Dead …. LOL …. too pricey to repair Another engine to consider would be the Cat 3208's newer successor the C-7, or the slightly older 3176, they are 250-330hp range engines I love my 5.9L in the Dodge, but think they might be a little shy in the cubes dept. for continuos heavy pay-load days …. when I load mine up (chipped and dialed into 410hp) to 33k total w/gooseneck and equipment on deck, she's sweat'n pretty BIG Bullets, it's doing the job but the same trailer and gear behind a heavier 4900 Interbinder with the DT 530 @ 300hp it just plays with the GCVW ………. JMHO !!! Good-Luck in your search !!! …… Cheers !!!
8.3 cummins is hard to beat.
OooooPs !!! …. forgot about that one …. another real good-one !!! ….. LOL
Serviceability is what I would look for. Where and when would parts or service be available? We have only one IH dealer in town and one 70 miles away. Cummins seems to be the small block Chevy of the diesel world.
Can't go wrong with the DT or Cummins. For any thing heavier than a one ton load , go with the DT 466 with out jumping to bigger trucks. Jmho. Ps 8.3 is good too.
HI Guys, Thanks for the input so far....Based on what I've read here and some more research online I think I will go between the 5.9 and the 466......I haven't seen any trucks yet with the 8.3. One thing I wonder about is why the 466 is max rated at about 250 HP or less in stock form whereas the 5.9 is so much higher rated in a pick up truck (from my reading I guess medium duty use is derated for heavy hauling?). I like the fact that the 466 has wet liners for more easy rebuilds BUT that can be a curse too from what I've read about cylinder captivation (?) if the cooling system isn't properly maintained. One major plus I see with the 5.9 (at least for me) is that it is basically the same engine as in my pickups and parts would be interchangeable (oil filters etc,,,) plus I am familiar with how to do things on the engine already. I am wondering if comparing the 5.9 VS the 466 would be like comparing a small block engine VS a big block engine in the gasoline world ? (In the gasoline world I've had good luck w/ the the small block because I've not ever really worked them too hard plus they've always got better mileage in my overall use). Andrew
Torque is more important to look at that hp in a vocational truck. For example the 466 and 5.9 could both be 250hp, but I guarantee you the 466 has more torque if we're talking stock settings. I have a topkick with a 3116 rated at 180hp, but its also rated at like 800 ft lbs of torque and rarely drops below 65mph on a hill grossing 25k lbs. And gets about 12mpg doing it. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Torque is thr force you use to move the load. HP is how fast you move it. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Andyinchville : Don't be Fooled by the reputation that the 5.9L has gained in the Dodge world !!! ……. in the medium duty (commercial trucks) they have had their issues …. in and around '98-'99 any block that had the casting "53" in it was a BAD block …. they cracked due to electrolysis plus a poor thin casting, from what I remember BRAZIL Made, and pissed out all the liquid, basically a throw away engine, they were way more commonly found in the 3-6 ton world but were also found in some of the pick-ups (as my brother in-law found out) ……. AS you've read below, It's not All about HP, It's the torque …… hence the expression …..."Their's No Substitute For Cubic Inch's" …… Cheers !
I think its really important to remember with the 466 you have options.... rebuild or buy a reman. With the 5.9 you have the reman only..... We had one of the lovely Brazilian made blocks in a 1998 Ford F-800, had to get a Cummins reman for it. I believe it was around $5000 or so for the short block (been a long time ago). We have overhauled two 466 motors and i believe all told it was around $2500-$3000 complete. As far as performance goes, i dont think there is a comparison between the 5.9 and 466 engines (given the same specs). In fact we have a 466 and an 8.3 right now both with 250hp and that 466 will absolutely blow the doors off the 8.3! Loaded, empty it doesnt matter. The 8.3 has been a good motor with little problems at 200,000 miles so i cant say much bad about it other than that 466 is stronger. You might also want to look at that Cat 3116 as said above. We had one with 450,000 miles with a flat bed and it was a great running engine
I would not do a 3116, they are a pretty wimpy engine quality and grunt-wise compared to a 466 or 8.3. Plus they have a very specialized injection system that is big bucks to fix and starting to get harder to find a mechanic that knows how. Its replacement the 3126/C7 is even worse. I agree the 5.9 is too small, and you said in the beginning that the hired help will be driving it so you can't turn it up and expect them to watch the pyro. The 3208 is too old and outdated by today's standards, and besides that it burns a lot of fuel for the power so with today's diesel prices, not a good idea. One other engine to consider is a Ford 6.6 or 7.8 but they are getting pretty old as well.
Out of the 3, go with the 466
Yair . . . I have to ask. I see pictures of Isuzu, Fuso, and Hino running in the 'States. How do their engines perform against the local brew? Cheers.
From what I've seen they're just as dependable, if not more so. However they're usually small and underpowered for what most guys want. They're great in smaller box trucks and delivery trucks. I have one customer with a Hino rollback and he loves it but its pretty small. 19,500 gvw I believe. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Yair . . . Gotcha 02Dmax . Come to think of it yes they were all smaller rigs. Must be something to do with regulations. This may be of interest, check out the engine and hp/torque range from Isuzu . . . afraid you will have to use the convert function on Google as it is all metric. http://www.isuzu.com.au/truck-range/truck-search.aspx?minkg=7500&maxkg=10000 Cheers.
Isuzu's are kinda like my first girlfriend.... Very dependable but not much to look at! I would love to have a crew cab with a utility bed.....
Dont forget economical. Lol. Very good description. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
8.3 with a caps pump is not the best but I like mine. I was running about 35,000 lb today and with 280 hp 900 FPT and it pulled great. A mechanical pump is a lot more fun but no giz-mos like cruse control .
HI, I saw a truck w/ a 9 liter engine.....is this a good engine?....I only ran across two so far but other than the engine (runs OK) the truck is great. Andrew
(9L International V8? Dont walk, Run away from that. I would rather have another 8.2L Detriot or 3208. JMO
What kind of 9 liter? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
No love for fuel pinchers?
As far as the Fuel Pinchers, I had good luck with the 8.2L Detriot in its day. I've owned 3, two were turboed, and 1 NA. All 3 in service trucks at 20 To 23,000 GVW. They lived up to their name, I think the natural aspirated one averaged around 12-13 mpg. But power? Not so much. I never had any mechanical issues with them, either.
How much weaker was the n/a fuel pincher? I've got a 230hp turbo one that is very very underpowered but gets the job done
Yair . . . I see on this and other truck sites lots of comments about trucks being "underpowered" . . . what do you mean, underpowered compared to what? I mean to say, if it is reliable and gets the job done what matter if it takes a little longer. I have told the tale on here about a mate of mine with a do'ed up bogie Flintstone tipper and dog working with a bunch of new Volvos. They were configured the same and cost about four times his investment. He got the same amount of loads in every day but got home a little late. Cheers.
I believe the N/A Pincher was about 150HP? And I do agree reliability comes first.
HI All, I looked at a single axle dump truck today (33K GVW, 10 speed, Air brakes, Looked OK, dump bed looked solid, needed 3 tires....fronts were worn a little funny which has me a little worried) . Anyways, the truck has a detroit diesel in it (It was hard to see the engine but I could see it was blue in color)...It was pretty cluttered under the hood and getting dark so I could not tell if it was an inline or V engine). I did get the VIN off the truck...{gop9c{23Ey523019 The funny "**" was a vertical bar on the vin tag,,,,Hope I got the numbers right since I was going off a pic I took of the tag. Anyways, what is the general thought on a detroit diesel engine? The trans must have been hard to shift because he was grinding quite a few gears....I did ask him if I could get a discount for the damaged tranny! He was asking $4K for the truck....Your thoughts on this? (the engine was smoking at idle and for about 1/4 mile it laid down a pretty good smoke screen on the road but then seemed to clean up.....he said that was "normal" for a Detroit. Andrew
Andy, 4k for a running Dump truck seems a good deal, But more details would help. You left a lot on the table there.
What year and model? Wheels? Tire size? 8.2 liter turbo or not? 10 speed as a 5 with 2 speed rear? All these things are what I'd be looking at
HI, The dump truck is a 1984 GMC Brigadier, 10' single cylinder dump, manual tarp, air gate, single speed single axle, 33K GVW, air brakes, Detroit diesel (could not see which one but could read detroit diesel on the engine...blue color....has turbo), 10 speed trans (single speed rear so all the gears are in the tranny....non syncro so owner said have to match rpms), claimed kingpins were OK but front tires looked like cupped / uneven wear, Mileage unknown since speedo was not working, a few rust throughs on cab / exhaust but otherwise sound (cab mounts good) ....wheels were 5 spoke 22.5. Andrew
I make a living with a 8.2 turbo detroit but it's in my bucket truck on mostly flat ground and I love the engine it gets excellent mpg and runs out great but is NO POWER HOUSE... I believe mine is a 230hp version
Its probably an American thing Scrubpuller. Lol. Most of us consider anything that won't keep up with traffic on a highway to be underpowered. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
My 8.2 pulls hills at 30 a dt466 will at 55.
HI Guys, I think I may have found a truck that I may buy this weekend but wanted last minute input and advice.... The price seems right so I am temporarily suspending my desire for a "jack of all trades" roll back type truck... I would like it to be able to move my Case 680 Backhoe with this truck so if anybody has an idea of how this combo will work I am all ears ! (I'll still have to get a trailer BUT since this truck is sooo much cheaper than the trucks I have been looking at I can probably get the truck AND a trailer from somewhere for the price of just a truck before!). Anyways, the truck is a 1998 F700 Single Axle Dump (14' steel side dump but no gate on the rear...I'll have to fab one up I guess or look for one)), Cummins 5.9 (12 valve), 6 Speed (per owner it has a granny low and is direct drive in 6th...NO od), Juice brakes, Pintle Hitch, 22.5 tires on Budds. Has a Snow Plow subframe on the truck but no hydraulics, controls, or blade....speedo not working so mileage unknown....Owner selling because he said he bought the truck sight unseen and it was bigger than he thought it was (said for him a Chevy 1 Ton w/ a dump and 4x4 is what he wanted). Supposedly the truck is work ready...no leaks, knocks, or unusual smoke...Floors solid but fiberglass tilt up hood assy has some cracks and a chunk missing near the fender. Heck the truck even has AC. The owner told me the truck will only make 55 MPH on the highway so I am guessing it may have gearing similar to a pickup truck running 3.55's or maybe 3.73's (I know this because my 1993 W250 will only make about 55 MPH on the highway when it is not in OD...the truck gearing will probably be lower than the numbers mentioned for the pickup because the tires are larger in diameter but the "feel" should be about the same I guess?). I am hoping that this truck can tow my Case 680 (weighs about 18500) while hauling mulch (14' bed).....If that is asking too much I guess I can make separate trips... While I would like MORE truck (I saw a single axle dump grossing 40K, with an n14, 40K GVW, Airbrakes and more for 10K), I guess this would be more practical for me since I can just hop in and go (no cdl etc...) plus the 14' bed would let me haul more bulky (mulch , cleanups etc that I do more often) items than the normal 10' beds lots of dumps seem to have. Anyways, how do you this this truck would work out?...probably NOT a speed demon but do you think it can get the job done safely? (the owner thought I may be crazy trying to haul such a heavy load using juice brakes BUT then again aren't the new Dodge trucks factory rated to haul 30K using only Juice brakes?)...are air brakes THAT much better?.....I drive very conservatively so hopefully I would be OK. Thanks! Andrew
400ft lb Cummins? What do you think your gross combination vehicle weight will be? I have a 85 gmc c7000 with a big block and 14 foot bed it weighs 11500 so you'll be at least 12k what's your trailer gonna weigh?
He'll be over 35k if he loads up that backhoe. Too much weight for too little truck in my book but I've seen worse. Ive gotten used to air brakes. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
What is the GVW of the truck in question? Seems like 18,500 backhoe + 12,000 truck + 5,000 trailer = way too heavy to be legal. I think the truck and engine could move it and stop it....... im not totally sure its something i would want to do everyday though. I think in the long run you would tear that truck up running it like that. If you were only using it in that fashion once a week or so for very short local hauls i would think you would be okay. Not saying i recommend you running illegal, those gvw laws are there for a reason. I will say that at least for me the fact that you are maxing out at 55mph would be maddening. Wouldnt think that would be the case with that truck..... our 1998 F-800 has a 5+2 trans and a 5.9 cummins and it will run 65-70 mph going down the highway. That doesnt seem accurate in the truck you are looking at and if it was i would think twice.... Thats just personal preference, not that it wouldnt do the job. May i ask what you are trying to spend to be able to do this?
HI, I don't know the weight of the empty truck itself. I looked up the backhoe (Case 680 E) online and many people thinks it weighs anywhere from 16K to about 18.5K...I bought a factory brochure off eBay and it says 15K (I did add a 4 N 1 Bucket so it may weigh a tad more than 15K). I looked up the weight of a 25' equipment trailer w/ a GVW of 25600.....It has a weight of 6660 lbs (tandam duals, 12 K axles)....this was the specs off a new trailer for weight purposes...I would be buying used. Based on this it looks like I would be towing about say 22,500 (allow for misc stuff like tie downs, chains, misc tools etc...). If the truck weighs say 13K (added a bit for tools driver weight etc....)....I would be at about 35,500 lbs total weight. Think the 5.9 has the Wheaties to get the job done?....I suppose I could roll at 45 MPH in 5th gear all the way? (only reason I say that is because the owner says max speed (governed) is 55 MPH. I tried googling the tow rating of the truck but can't find any info....any ideas on where to look up info on this older truck? Thanks! Andrew
Not an expert there with the tow rating on the truck but if that truck isnt at least 26,000 gvw i dont think i would consider it. Either way you are going to need a CDL to be legal if you tow that backhoe. With that said i would try and find a truck that was 33,000 gvw, that would give you a lot better comfort level when towing this load. That 5.9 will pull what you are wanting to do, but i think if you are going to be hauling that heavy on a daily basis you will tear it up, what is the frequency you are planning on using this? Its never ideal to be right on the threshold of what a piece of equipment will do and try to make it do that everytime its being used. If you can overshoot what is the minimum i think you will be much better in the long run.
HI, The truck is for sale for $4K cash......I figure it would be a good cheap way into dump trucking (my main business is lawn mowing BUT I could have many jobs mulching if I had a dump truck...I also do a fair amount of property clean ups). I already own the case 680 E (got it to clear my land and dig a couple septic systems)...I put an ad on CL for general excavation work and got a couple jobs from it (I couldn't believe it!).....I was trying to make some $$ in the off lawn care season so that is why I was trying for more property cleanups and backhoe work (my helper is the one who is good at septic system installs since he used to work for a company that did that). In addition to being a low cost truck I am already familiar w/ the 5.9 since I have that in 4 other trucks (also the fact that the truck itself is under CDL means my helper can drive it w/o a CDL). Slow may be frustrating but maybe if I get the extra $$ this winter I would move up to a more powerful truck...(on the flip side, anytime you go big in a truck means non synchro trannies that would make life more "interesting"). As a side note I did see a nice F800 w/ auto trans and air brakes...I thought about getting this truck as an "easy" way to get a Class A license w/ Air brake endorsement ( small truck , easy to drive, auto trans means no hart to shift non synchro tranny etc....only reason I don't like auto trans is I am assuming they don't compression brake well (I am looking at older trucks to keep $$ down so no lock up converters). How does your big block tow?...I would imagine the 5.9 would be at least the same in performance? Andrew
Big block in my opinion is a great engine still but not in the same league as the modern diesels. I think it has 6.18 gears and is wound out at 55. It might pull that load real slow but is beyond what I'd like to try and stop.
As i understand it..... after being pulled over for it, that when you attach that trailer to the truck you are now combining your gvw. So with this truck at 26,000 + 20,000 = 46,000lbs. When i got pulled over i had our dump truck with a skid steer trailer @ 26,000 truck + 14,000 trailer = 40,000lbs. They scaled the whole unit and said it weighed in at like 35,000lbs and that it was classified at requiring a CDL..... thus a massive ticket! Besides the semi we really only tow with the single axle Kenworth dump. It is a 26,000 gvw truck with a 250hp Cummins 8.3 with 6 speed trans. The most ive ever towed with it was a 8,000 skid, 9,000 mini ex and 100 frames of scaffolding with parts. Not a wise choice but it did pull it around 100 miles. Routinely i can haul about 6-7 yards of dirt and pull a skid trailer with a Cat 246 skid. The trailer and skid weigh about 12,000lbs. You know theres a load on there but it does feel safe and i dont mind driving it.