I am working on a Michigan Tractor Shovel Model 35AWS that has been sitting for a few years. I got it to start but I can't get it to idle. It runs full throttle. It is a 53 Detroit Diesel 5033 7101 3-d 35937. Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Thanks.
Might be the injectors are stuck . Pull the valve cover off and see if the rack moves them. Dont run it anymore until you get it figured,you might have a runaway.
Thank you. Will check them.
on those old engines, the individual levers that are on the control tube are rigidly mounted( not spring loaded), so if one injector rack sticks, all the racks will be in the same position--anywhere between idle and full load
Ok. Thank you for this information. Will check that.
If you don't have a manual on the 53 series engines I do have one in PDF format in two files I could send you!
I do have one, but thanks for the offer!
Is there timing marks on the govenor?
Not on any Detroit I ever saw! Only timing marks are on the gears that drive the camshaft and balance shaft(inlines) . Have you checked the injectors for free movement of the racks? Also what did you do to this to get it running the first time? You mention it had not run for a few years. Do you know any of the history of the machine and why it was not run for years. Could be that this problem you are seeing is the reason it was parked! Someone who did not know what they were doing screwed it up then got scared and walked away and now it's your problem!
No. Basic timing is from the cam injector lobes. Final timing is adjusted at each injector individually by a specific timing pin tool to a specific dimension for that specific engine with specific injectors. The original spec is usually on the plate on the valve cover unless someone has changed it or the tag has been lost.
T
The reason they parked it was because the fuel tank was rusted and they couldn't get clean fuel into it. So I took and put a spare fuel tank on it and changed the lines and everything got it to start and run but it won't idle down. I did check the rack and it's all free and moving. It only wants to run wide open. No throttle control and yes it is free and moving, the throttle is
How about posting a picture showing the governor on this engine. I know you posted the numbers off the engine but on something this old I would not trust that it has the same engine as it did when new or that there have not been changes made over the years. Just for fun can you say if these things are correct for your engine? This is a 3 cylinder engine. If standing at the flywheel end looking towards the fan end the exhaust manifold is on the left and Blower is on the right. This is a 2 valve engine (that's 2 valves per cylinder, 6 total under the valve cover). Starter is on the same side of engine as the exhaust manifold. Do you know what kind of governor this engine has? Is there a tag on the governor? There are a few different types of governor and that is why I asked for a picture above. No reason for anyone to spend a bunch of time explaining how to check a variable speed or an external limiting speed to find out a week latter that you have internal limiting speed. Some may know what this application should have but I try to never assume anything on a machine of this vintage, this could be the third engine that has been in this machine and who know if it's anything like the one that it had when new? If you don't already know Detroits engine were only a suggestion as to how the were assembled about the only thing I have not see is one used with the crankshaft at the top! Now that I said that someone will probably post a picture of one! As an off the cuff idea I would be tempted to start the engine with valve cover off and see if you could manually control the speed by working the rack by hand. I'm going on the assumption that the shut down works so you can kill it fast if needed! Has anyone had the cover off the governor?
One governor lever is Shut down the other is throttle, disconnect throttle side and see if moves Freely, they like to bind in the housing covers. There is also a Buffer spring idle adjustment, if the spring has trashed someone may have dialed it up just to eliminate the governor roll.
This all assumes that it has the original engine design. Like I said I would not want to make assumptions about anything of this age! For all we know someone could have stuck a genset engine in there with a woodward hydraulic governor on it! There is probably a reason it has been sitting for a few years, might be something simple or......!
the tag on the governor(if it has one) should read for instance, DWLS or DWVS or something like that. even that is not for sure because it may have been bastardized during its life. it may even have been set up as a variable low speed/ limiting high speed with a booster spring on top of the cover
Or you could hook the return spring on the throttle linkage back up. Bob
It is a 3 cylinder engine. It has 3 rocker arms. The starter is on the same side as the exhaust manifold. No markings visible on the governor. The governor is the same as in the picture in the manual. Cannot control speed by working Rack by hand, tried that. Can't find a cover on the governor to take off. Trying to send pic.
The shut off lever won't move. The buffer spring seems to be okay though. The throttle side moves freely.
The return spring on the throttle linkage is hooked up.
How are you shutting this off?
Okay you posted this picture so am I to assume this is what the governor looks like on your engine? I would try to remove the cotter pin and pin from the fuel rod and make sure that the injector control tube rotates free and the rods coming out of the injectors move in and out when the injector control tube is rotated. The rods on the injectors should work in and out around a half inch or more as I recall, it's been many years since I saw a 3-53! Unless someone else is very familiar with the external linkage governor, which I believe this is called I will have to do some reading on how it operates. Ok "if" the picture posted is the governor we are dealing with I'm attaching the four pages out of the manual that refer to it. The picture in my manual is not the best so would need to refer to the one above. right off I'm not seeing where the throttle linkage connect or for that mater the shut down linkage!
And for good measure I'm attaching here the adjustment pages for this governor!
With the emergency kill on the intake that shuts air off.
The control tube is not turning.
Downloading and studying it.
Thankyou.
Ok.Thanks. Will review.
Wait! You said this up in message #12: "I did check the rack and it's all free and moving. It only wants to run wide open." Exactly what were you referring to when you said "it's all free and moving"? Maybe we are having a problem with different people using different terms? That tube I said to remove the pin from the link going to the governor is what many people refer to as the "rack". That is what Detroit calls the "injector control tube"! If like I suggested you removed the cotter pin and pulled that pin that connects the rod that passes out of the head to the governor and with that pin out that tube does not rotate nice and free then you have found your problem. This is exactly what I said a few posts back: " I would try to remove the cotter pin and pin from the fuel rod and make sure that the injector control tube rotates free and the rods coming out of the injectors move in and out when the injector control tube is rotated. The rods on the injectors should work in and out around a half inch or more as I recall, it's been many years since I saw a 3-53!" What is the problem you ask? Well like Tugger2 said in the very first reply to you original post you have a stuck injector and if you don't take care of that the next post you are going to be making assuming you are not killed will be: "Why did all those parts come flying out the sides of my 3-53?"
On open link governors like yours.....the biggest issue is dirt, water, and sun. All of these cause the linkage, linkage pins, and springs to become rusty which causes drag......even rusty springs can have an effect on settings. You more than likely have something that is binding a bit and not returning to its original set position. Also the springs can stretch and even break, so it’s imperative that if you remove any springs....you don’t get them mixed up and reinstall them exactly where they were removed from. The last 3-53 I was on another mechanic had removed 1 spring and didn’t get one end of it placed correctly. It’s a good thing he couldn’t get the fuel system bled cause once I got it bled and the fuel pressure up, the engine skyrocketed to the moon.
While we are talking about injectors here is a picture of a common Detroit injector, if yours is an original for that engine it may be slightly different looking but not that much. To be all kinds of fussy the "rack" is actually the rod like part that the red arrows are pointing to. The levers on that control tube hook into the square part on the left in the picture. As it is positioned in this picture this injector is in full fuel position or dam close to it! If you could turn that injector around and look at the other side of that rod you would know why they call it the rack, assuming you are familiar with rack and pinion steering! There are teeth cut in the side of that rod that mesh with a gear inside the housing and that gear turns a plunger that controls the amount of fuel injected. That's as far as I'm going to go at this point on injector theory! That Green arrow is pointing to the tag that give the part number and size of the injector, or at least if it is an original style tag. Depending on the age of your engine and if it even still has the original injectors it's anyone's guess what it will say. But all three should be the same! I could imagine S35 or S45 maybe N35 or N45 or even something completely different! When replacing injectors there are two adjustments that need to be made to each one and it might be worth your time and the safety of the engine to see if you can find someone near by you to handle that part of the job. Unless someone else on this forum feels comfortable walking you through it or you can chance it if you have the manual with that information in it.
I pull them without removing the fuel control rack but I have done 1000’s of those. I don’t know that a novice would be careful enough. If he pulled the control rack the entire rack set up should be redone which requires a lot more knowledge and experience that I don’t think I could explain well enough. The bad thing about 2 stoke Detroit’s is one slight bend or misadjustment can cause a catastrophic runaway. I would suggest he get someone that knows those engines. JMHO of course.
Yes, we have a miscommunication. I thought the rack was what held the rocker arms and it was moving. I thought my manual labeled it that way. It has 3 rocker arms per cylinder. Are one of them for the injector? They are all moving.
The 2 outer rockers on each cylinder are the exhaust valves. The center rocker on each cylinder is the injector. The rocker for the injector is going to move up and down. You need to look at 2 things 1. Is the top of the injector following the rocker travel up and down? 2. The rack rod goes to a fork on each injectors control lever. When the rod is stroked back and forth, each control rod should move back and forth smoothly with no binding at all. They should all travel the same distance to each stop....full fuel and no fuel. Does yours do this?
Center one of each three set is the Injector, there is also a Specific Height Adjustment for these as well a set up for the Rack to be equal to all three. Get a service manual and about $200 in special tools and you can do this. Preferably you need a Tech that has dealt with these to set the rack. on of the three or ALL three injector rack pins is frozen, not good.
Im just reading ,taking all this info in . I run a bunch of detroits in the cranes but im not a mechanic. Ive had to to free up stuck injectors on machines that have sat and got them running successfully.Ive had to grab the throttle and hold one back that was about to go into orbit. That was my lesson on always pull the valve cover and check the rack movement and all the injectors on an engine that has sat.The throttle linkage always moves but you never know whats going on under the valve cover till you look.And as said always have an method of shutting the air off. ive seen them run with the E flap pulled. Just an operator/welder /piledrivers point of view.
Yeah the E flap is not a guaranty. The engine can wind up so fast that when that flap goes down it will not stop all the suction of air cause it’s not a positive sealing set up. After a few runaways I always make sure I have 3 different ways to shutdown a run away. 1. A pair of vise grips (needle nose). I find the most accessible spot on the engine and have them already pre-adjusted to clamp a fuel line on the pressure side of the fuel pump. When it runs away it seems like a lifetime goes by getting that line clamped and it seems to take forever for the engine to die. 2. A way to shut off the air supply. The E stop flap will kill the engine a lot of the time but it shouldn’t be depended on. I have a set up I made myself years ago that replaces an air box bolt and uses a break over lever to keep the cover on. It’s quick and easy to slap the lever and dump the cover. They die fast with no air flow to the cylinders. 3. I have a hammer ready for last resort. It’s easy to knock the restricted fitting on the cylinder head off providing there is access to it. That dumps the fuel pressure immediately and ends in a quick death.
Or keep a can of ether duck taped to a 10' pole with a cam over lever, hold over intake- engine will die fairly soon.
You have to apreciate the feeling of hugging your runaway 4/71 inside the house of your crane , reaching over the engine to grab the throttle lever and kill it as it winds up or get a gut full of rods n pistons.Im amazed at myself that saving one of those dam things could be so important.
Busting the restrictor fitting is a good one if your in a panic ,i never thought of that. Try hacking one of the rubber elbows off with your jacknife to get something over the air intake when you never thought to unclamp that stuff first before start up.
Was on a 6V53 that rocketed off, on a Ag pump 10 feet off grade but Under the actual shed platform, guy above me hearing it go, grabbed a CO2 extinguisher and POOF dead beast. Overhauled that same POS and found NOTHING to cause the run off, was fine after lost money on it.
Runaways will scare anyone, even the best techs. When you have one it’s something you will never forget which is why I have my 3 way shutdown rules. Every runaway I have had I was either over the top of the engine or next to it. Your first instinct is to get the hell away from it as fast as you can and hide behind something huge and solid. I have been able to get every runaway shut down and I have never lost a engine. The last I had was a 353 about a year ago that was an old open linkage governor with a rack rod spring installed backwards. The mechanic couldn’t get the fuel system to move fuel and failed to tell me had had been screwing with the governor. I ran new fuel lines and installed a restricted fitting to replace the standard fitting he had installed. I spun the engine over for about 10 seconds and OOOFFFF she went! That engine ran so fast sparks were coming out of the exhaust and it took me a good minute to get it shut down. During that minute I stayed there right next to the blower and all I could think about was how many seconds I left before the engine scatters and tosses a connecting rod through my chest. I still stayed with it while my life flashed before my eyes and it finally started to cough and sputter. It died a few seconds later.....the only thing I did for the next 15 minutes was try to catch my breath and get my hands to stop trembling. You could be a billionaire if you could market a runaway as a thrill ride.
I had 2 good friends of mine both well experienced in the wonders of Detroits working together inside a sidewinder /boom boat when a 453 ran on them . i was working in the same shop and heard it light up ,lucky they were prepared and managed to kill it
i had a silver 92 in a Pete cab over along side the freeway {I90} with the cab up and mufflers mounted to the cab smoke poring out choking my *** and I was right on top it pulling the fuel lever back to shut it down. Stink-in troits. And a 12V71 that ran away on first startup.
but, you have to admit, generally speaking, those old 2 strokes were a tough engine that took a lot of abuse in some pretty poor conditions. they usually stood up well to many different operators/drivers. i don't think there is an engine made nowadays that would take that kind of punishment and not break the bank
Well if we a telling runaway stories I guess here would be the time and place to fess up to a dumb mistake I made on a 12V-71 in a Euclid R-35. Forget all the fine details but I had installed a set of rebuilt N-65's in the engine with it still in frame. Torqued them down adjusted valves and injectors. All good and hit starter a few seconds cranking and it fired right up. AH that don't sound right it's reving a bit to fast. Grabbed shut down handle in cab to find it was already all the way out. Some idiot had adjusted the racks with the shut down in the off position! So now "off" was equal to "Full Fuel"! Only thing that saved the day was the emergency shut-down cable was not rusted and the flappers on top of the blowers were working. Redid the rack adjustments and engine behaved a bit better on the next start!
A friend of mine had an 8-71 in a boat that ran away and seized up somehow. After the smoke cleared everyone who had exited the engine room in a big hurry were trying to figure out the next move assuming the motor was toast. I don't know the details on why it ran away but they decided to try to start it again just for giggles, it started and ran fine and never gave any more problems that season. He rebuilt it eventually, they are tough motors.
I will check all this when I get back working on it. Have to do my regular job during the week. Will let you know what I find out. Thanks again for all your time in helping me.
Thank you, will follow all recommendations to figure this out and get back to everyone.
Not to be fussy but I have one suggestion to make your replies to people's suggestion a bit easier to follow. If you want to answer or reply to something someone writes just click on the reply down in the right side of the post. See the circled "reply" in the picture below: that's what I did to your post that it was taken from. You can see at the top of this box what will open up in the message box where you can reply to it. That way everyone can see what you're replying to. Now if replying to someone like....well me who can get carried away in what I'm typing you can just highlite the junk you want to ignore and hit delete and leave the one part that you are commenting on. Just makes it neater looking and easier to follow for everyone. Just be sure to leave the brackets[ ] and everything inside them at the start and finish of the quoted test.
This feller right here is what Detroit 2 strokes were built for-A cowboy rodeo engine. And notice the fact he's already pissed off from slamming his hand in the door so he can rap that two stroke out and slam bang through the gears. Just a whippin and a whompin out of shute number 9 is old Stinky a riddin the Green Stinker. Hell he even has a booger hanging out his nose.