All, We have a 544J loader and have a problem with it on initial start Fuel is good Fuel lines are clean and good The feed pump (not sure what its called but provides fuel to the main pump) is good It is not sucking air The main fuel pump has just been replaced The engine compression is good In warm weather On initial start it turns over plenty fast but will not start With just a touch of ether it will start and run fine Even if you work it for a while, if you kill it and wait 30 seconds it will not start There is not diesel in the oil I do not know the details of the system well enough to know what might cause this....is there a cam sensor or crank sensor that could cause this? it just acts like the injectors are not pulsing or something like that....but why only until it starts...it is turning 250 it is not turning over too slow. I appreciate any help you can give me. mpolk
I don't know much about this or any common rail system, but the diagnostics involve measuring the leakage from various components and going from there. Something is leaking too much fuel to build the needed pressure to start, or a sensor is not letting the pump build pressure. Why was the main pump replaced and who did that? Any codes?
Well obviously I do not know as I am seeking help, but I don't believe it is a leakage problem. It acts like the computer is not pulsing the injectors until it actually starts. I just don't know the details of the system. I had a pick up that would start and run for a second and then die and found a relay turned the fuel pump on for a few seconds and then there was an oil pressure switch that had to show pressure for the pump to run. So I understand there could be a sensor problem but the only code set was a brake lite low voltage (I will find out exactly what code it had on it and if it resets it)
What is a 544j? A John Deere? Is this anything like a Ford Power stroke?I'm no expert on them but I think they start out on electricity to function the injectors until the HPOP builds up pressure to take over. Maybe that is the same?
Depending on serial number it could be common rail or rotary fuel pump. Do you know if it is a tier 2 or 3 engine? PM me the serial. We need to know which engine is in it first before we can start diagnostics as the procedures are different between each. The common rail system does not use oil pressure to actuate the injectors and either fuel system doesn't have an electric fuel pump.
Good thing a real mechanic showed up, it was starting to sound like amateur car talk here. My experience with common rail is exactly one engine, but it did the exact same thing, and could well be the same Bosch system, Deere doesn't make fuel systems do they? The leakage is internal, more like return flow. Assuming of course that this isn't a rotary pump, cause then we're really gonna be lost...
Make sure both batteries are good. We had the exact symptoms and paid around 300 for the Deere mechanic to come and tell us it was a bad battery. Come to think of it he saw it when he checked the codes on the screen. Ours spun over fast enough to make you not believe that it could have low voltage. It has to have 24 volts for the computer to fire the injectors and the little shot of ether would be just enough for the alternator to start charging and fire the injectors. Hope that is your problem as it will be the cheapest fix.
There are two types, tier 2 rotary with pencil injectors, I believe made by bosch and the common rail ie tier 3, the pump feeds fuel at high pressure to a rail which is common to all injectors and the ecu opens and closes the injectors. I believe that is made by Delphi to deeres own specs. Serial number can tell what engine is in it. To me and Im assuming its HPCR it sounds like worn out injectors or the fuel is draining back to the tank. The leakage is internal and is measured through the return line and measured at idle over a given period. I would like to know why the pump was changed because they rarely fail before injectors. It could also be a fuel delivery valve on the rail. They stick open and dump too much fuel through the rail and cause a no start also. Before anything can be said for sure we need to know what engine is actually in it.
AndrewC I can already tell you will be able to help me. I am new to site and don't know how to PM but surely it cant hurt to post a portion of the last six on the serial number so you can help 6173*^ if you need the last two numbers let me know. I want to diagnose the problem and I appreciate your help.
If it starts with a sniff of ether, My money is on a failed rail pressure sensor. Ive seen them get stuck showing pressure with the engine shut off...the SCV doesnt kick in because it thinks it already has pressure at the rail. Once the engine is running (on ether) desired rail pressure climbs higher than actual(false) rail pressure and begins commanding more fuel.
Regardless of the engine, my number one Deere fuel prime issue is when the o-ring on top of the separator bowl is omitted when the filters are serviced. I like having the bowl, but the filter can be used without the bowl, by simply putting the bowl drain plug in the base of the filter. Which engine, common rail or rotary pumped? And yes, they will not leak externally when the bowl oring is missing, yet, will lose their prime. Been there, done that. Usually, you can hand prime and eliminate the start issue if it's a missing oring.
Its common rail you can use jds online parts catalog to see the serial break, if the machine runs after its started on ether I would think you would notice low power if it wasn't getting enough fuel or was sucking air but I would change the rail pressure sensor as the code you mentioned was rail mismatch so a bit of insurance would be to replace it then also replace the rail relief along with it as if the pressure has spiked its going to start leaking out there also. Start with that then see. Do not start the engine with the rail sensor disconnected or you will have issues. How many hours on the loader and do you know why the pump was changed and was it replaced and not rebuilt?
Some new information - The unit has two fuel filters and since I am not sure what they are each called, I am going to refer to them in order as the fuel flows from the tank. When the loader wont start the first filter (closest to fuel tank in the flow) is bone dry. I thought that might help with diagnosis. I will post a separate message detailing the history and what has been done so far.
the history leading up to where we are is the loader got to missing a little and they were finding a good bit of trash in fuel system ....the miss got worse and then the no start w/o a splash of ether started and then it would not start at all. The field mech said he blew back through the fuel line and it would then run but not start w/o touch of ether. They believed the tank had trash build up in it so it was took to shop and the tank was removed and cleaned out and the fuel line from the tank was replaced. They wanted to do that before trying to fix miss as they thought that was an injector and the fuel system needed to be clean first. That was done and it still had star problem. At that point they just went to replacing parts rather that determining the problem. Both fuel pumps, the sensor and solenoid were all replaced. Still has start problem...has power, still has a little miss which will prob be injector. And as stated before if you use ether to start it and run it for an hour and kill it, it will not restart on its own and the first fuel filter will be dry. Fuel lines are not restricted.
Which goes right back to my upper post the first fuel filter is sucking air at it's water bowl. Poor to no start overnight, missing when running, and an empty first filter. If you're not using the water bowl, then the screw on head for the filter head has a bad seal. They sell the seal.
Fix the simple things first, they tried, but if the filter is empty they still have some figuring to do before even looking at the injection system.
The common rail can suck the filters dry if it dumps it all through the rail relief or through the injectors but I would try and eliminate the low side if the filter is getting sucked dry, one way to elimintate the filters is to put a jumper between the hoses if you can. I cannot recall if it is 6 ors or the compression fitting on the the j series but that is one way, the other thing that I have seen lots of is the stand pipe in the tank gets plugged up with debris pull that out first and check it. It is held by a hose clamp then its threaded into the tank. I was assuming you had confirmed the low side but you need to be sure before you go any further. The oring that has been discussed is on the clear bowl of the primary filter, the correct one is fatter than the one that comes with the filter but the one that comes with the filter will work. When they did all the work did they change the rail relief? It is a small valve threaded into the top of the high pressure rail with a small tube going to a tee fitting, the nuts for the line are a 9/16 wrench size. If its been changed it will not be yellow.
The stand pipe is clean, they pulled tank, cleaned stand pipe and replaced fuel line. Have not been using the clear bowl. It has a little miss but power is good. Shut it off, go to restart, wont start w/o a touch of ether.......if prior to giving it the ether to start, the back filter is dry. heymccall posted "Which goes right back to my upper post the first fuel filter is sucking air at it's water bowl. Poor to no start overnight, missing when running, and an empty first filter. If you're not using the water bowl, then the screw on head for the filter head has a bad seal. They sell the seal." I am going to try the screw on filter head seal tomorrow and see if it could be sucking air there. I will have to verify if the rail relief was changed. thanks guys
Ok here is the latest, we replaces the complete filter housing and it will now restart if you restart right away, it would not do that before, but if you wait 5 minutes it will not. There is still a vacuum on the back filter if you go to take filter off you hear it right after you kill it. I have a couple other observations. Before this loader started messing up ever since it was new when you would kill it, it would continue to run for just a second or two. Ever since it started messing up when you turn the key off it dies immediately. And in the fuse box fuse F33 Pressurizer motor has a 10a fuse in it but there is no power to that fuse, key on, key off or when starting. The common rail must be sucking the filters dry, what else could do that? Also AndrewC said before that to not start it with the pressure sensor unplugged. When I asked if they had replaced it they said that they had and they knew it was working because if they unplugged it while it was running you could tell big difference. With that being said, I do not believe that is what is causing the draining of the filters and no start because it was doing that and still is before the sensor was replaced or unplugged. Now what guys?
If you disconnect the rail sensor it puts the pump to max displacement and will open the rail relief, as soon as that opens then its done, its a one time use. All that fuel is going straight to the return. The injection pump can certainly pull it into a vacuum, Ive watched a rail relief dump so much fuel it pulls the pressure down to -21psi. Normal engine runs at 4 psi. I would still pull the stand pipe out and check it, it only takes a few minutes. I wouldn't worry too much about f33, does it power up when its running?
They pulled standpipe out and checked it prior to replacing filter housing......is there an easy way to check the relief? What about when checking fuses, in the fuse box fuse F33 Pressurizer motor has a 10a fuse in it but there is no power to that fuse, key on, key off, when starting or when running Does this mean any thing. Before this loader started messing up ever since it was new when you would kill it, it would continue to run for just a second or two. Ever since it started messing up when you turn the key off it dies immediately And no F33 does not power up when staring I guess the next thing is to check and/or replace the relief right?
The pressurizer is a second blower motor in the cab to pressure it up to keep the dust out. Your machine is meant to turn off with the key. If it got better after the injection pump was changed then they fixed a problem. You can check the rail limiter by disconnecting it from the tee and capping the tee. I have made the proper cap but for the longest time I was using a plastic cap and it worked. Run the machine and if fuel comes out from the relief then change it. I would just change it if they haven't. After doing that remove the injector return line which is the top line going into that tee run it into a measuring jug and run the engine for exactly one minute then shut it off and record how much fuel came out. Just make sure you put the cap on the tee when you do it. Do it warm as they leak more warm than cold.
I know you have checked the low side but I just want to stress that you have to make sure the low pressure side is 100%. Meaning lines are clear and fittings clear (no wood chips, mechanics gloves, paper towel, or rocks sitting in a 90 bend) lines tight and orings good. Hoses good at the inline filter as they crack, throw away the spring clamps they have at that filter and use gear clamps instead. I have seen to many people change parts that may or may not be still good and still have an underlying problem that will come back, changing parts will make the machine run good until they get some hours on it.
The O-rings in the middle here, approx 1 inch in diameter. http://fmsfilters.com/products/air-filters/24924
I'm on road so apologize if reads bad. We ran it for one minute to see what was getting sent back to tank. There was 40 ounces does that tell us anything?
That's just off the injector return? If it is you need injectors really bad.
Spec of failed injectors are 12 oz per minute. 8 oz per minute is enough for the rail to start starving of fuel under load. 40 oz per minute is enough to suck filters dry.
Ok here is update and pic 1. No fuel leaked from relief 2. When the line from injector common rail was took loose to try and test fuel leakage it would not start even on ether and no fuel came out while trying 3. the return line to tank was took loose where identified as "return to tank" in picture below junction it flowed 40 oz in one minute I do not know why it would not start with the injector return line loose but it wouldn't Any other time it will start on ether but then not restart. Does this tell us anything?
The line marked as return from common rail is where you want to take your reading. Im betting why it didbt start was because it was puking fuel through warn out injectors and the only way it will go is with a restriction in the return helping build a bit of back pressure in the injectors. The rail relief looks new. Try and do it only on the injectors but I think you need injectors especially if you had fuel contamination issues. Fuel cleanliness is number one, the filters cant get it all.
I am not saying there are not one or more bad injector but I think there is another problem causing the start. I have a couple of questions. If bad injectors were allowing too much fuel through them to the point it wouldn't start I would think we would have diesel in oil. When we ran it and measured the fuel going back to the tank with the relief capped off, it measured 40 oz in one minute, if the injectors were allowing too much fuel through them it would not be that way would it? Where the third line comes from the tee to the junction box is there something that would allow too much fuel to bypass there, like a control valve that could be stuck. Also what which problems would cause the filter to be sucked dry.
Yes, it would be that way if the injectors are leaking, they leak internally to the return, or externally to the oil. On some engines it's possible to cap off individual injector lines and measure the leakage again to determine which injectors are leaking the worst. Maybe Andrew can say for sure.
we had dealer check injectors using computer early in this no start diagnosis and they said they were all good. Where the return line to the tank connects at the junction is there a control valve or something else that could be allowing too much fuel to bypass and cause the filter to be sucked dry
And the dealer did such an efficient job fixing the issue that you're here singing their praises??? The common rail is in the thousands/tens of thousands of PSI, the return will be low pressure if there's not excessive leakage, so the return plumbing is not causing the leakage. I'm just trying to help you understand the system, I don't know what's wrong, but I think you are getting good advice here, you can try to confirm the suggestions or do whatever you want. Let us know how you fix it though.
I had a cat loader with similar fuel system and same problem. I bought a new injector line ,cut end off and brazed hole in line up. Then I took lines lose one at a time caped rail and tried to start, when I plugged line for bad injector it started.
There is no interaction between oil and fuel and how can you tell, do you oil sample? Do the test as I said, off the injector return. Take the line at the top of the tee and run the line to your jug. Cap the tee and tell us your return flow. If you have more fuel than 12 oz per minute you need injectors. That tee is low pressure return you shouldn't have that much fuel coming out. If the internal tolerances are worn all the high pressure fuel that is leaking past your worn injectors aren't going into the hole they are taking the easy path to tank. The only control valve is the one on the pump and you have said your pump is new. Im fairly certain you need injectors, it makes no sense if you have dirty fuel to have done all that work and not to have changed injectors. I hope you have changed the way the fuel is being handled or you will have the same problems all over again. The only things that will suck your filters dry is sucking air on the low side, blocked fuel passages on your low side. Both of these you have checked and say are good. The rail relief which looks new and isn't leaking when removed from the tee. A worn injection pump it is new and right now I am assuming is good until you test the injectors properly. And finally worn injectors.
By the way the laptop can do nothing to effectively diagnose injector leakage. Talking about what chrisumtrail said, that will diagnose it but the most effective test is return flow. I suppose if you want to save pennies you could cap one at a time and see which one the flow was the least on but I can say with a fair assumption poor fuel = worn injectors. You have to remember 10000+ psi and the clearances are measured in microns so if that thin diesel can find a way from doing its job and going through the nozzle it will.
AndrewC I had previously posted the results to Do the test as I said, off the injector return. Take the line at the top of the tee and run the line to your jug. Cap the tee and tell us your return flow When the line from injector common rail was took loose to try and test fuel leakage it would not start even on ether and no fuel came out while trying We are going to replace injectors ....and I am also replacing the line from the tank and inline filter with factory parts.....the shop just replaced it but was not spec and at this point I didn't want any doubts
I thought you may have been taking your flow off the wrong one because you should have some fuel come out but either way we know you have excessive leakage because the fail limit of the pump is 12oz per minute so if you had the two together that's 24 oz per minute, but the pump is new so we would assume it is still within spec and the rail relief also looks new and your not getting any leakage there. Make sure if you change those injectors yourself you note which hole you put them in and mark it on the sheet that came with that injector and have the dealer come out and program your new injectors. You also shouldn't run the machine until that is done. It changes the way fuel is delivered. There is a tag on top of each injector with the calibration codes if you do loose the paper.
ok here is the latest we had to use a factory tech from a different dealer but we made him aware of what had been done........he tells us that injectors are not the problem that we have low compression said that by hooking up computer he could tell the percentage each cylinder had from what it should and he said 2 cylinders are in the 75% range and one was at 29%.......I asked what the compression was and he said he did not know it was what the computer told him, I asked how a computer could tell what compression each cylinder had and he said he did not know that it was what the computer told him. And last but not least I asked how that could suck the filter dry and he said he did not know how it could. The unit has 8758 hours on it. Has plenty of power w little miss and no blow by. Help
The digital compression test uses pluses on the cam sensor to see if it is speeding up or slowing down and since it knows what hole its on then it can see which cylinders are down. If you don't do it three times then see if it is constantly low then you didn't do it right. And I don't trust it much. When it cranks does it sound like it speeds up and slows down? Sounds like they sent the top of the line tech there. We have been through everything that causes filters sucking dry, I think you should start from the beginning again (low side) or get a tech out that has been though 1307.04 codes before. I gave you specs for a failed injection system and clearly its failed as its far out of the specs. You either have a new pump that's worn out or as I said before injectors. Do you know how he tested your injectors? Another cut out test or did he do it by return leakage?
I am not sure if he did it three times or not, once he made that determination he did not do anything else, except try to sell me an engine and the price get this was not going to include injectors The machine has 8758 hours and he said the need engines at 6500.......I do not believe he is right if it was a compression issue I would expect low power, blow by additionally you can ether start it and work it for an hour and kill it and it will not start , if low compression I think would start when warmed up....and how would low compression cause the filters to get sucked dry?............anyway we can not get it to start with the injector return line taken loose from tee and the tee is capped so I can not get a true injector only test.......my normal dealer will get a tech out in a day or two, im gonna replace the injectors and see what happens...any other ideas or thoughts
Im going to assume you don't have low compression as it shouldn't cause the filters to run dry, when cranking did you get 3.7 oz in 20 sec out the injectors when you were disconnected from the tee? BTW those engines depending on servicing get 13000+, good oil and filters make a big difference.
we could not get it to start even on ether when we disconnected the injector return at the tee and capped the tee the only return we could measure was from return line to the tank which is the main return and includes what the pump is allowing to be returned as well that returned 40 oz in one minute at idle
Just trying to help here, you can measure the leakage cranking the engine, doesn't need to be running. And I'll second that low compression would not cause this to not start on it's own, you could have half the cylinders dead and the other half at 75% and it would start just fine warm and probably cold too. I only wish I knew if I was supposed to laugh or not when you mentioned the "top of the line tech"???
ok men we have a resolution.............. as you know I was ready to replace injectors...............my normal deere dealer did me a favor and got a tech out today.....when he first arrives he tells me "I understand you are having some problems with your loader not starting right and I am here to help. I am going to check it out a little and I will let you know what I find as soon as I am done" He spent several hours going over everything and he said the high pressure pump was out, he had brought parts that he might need with him so he had one, he replaced the pump and that was it....he said it did not need injectors........................... the pump had been replaced 10/29/2013.....I think with a factory tech diagnosing it I have a chance at getting it warrantied by deere...................the tech was a pro, he diagnosed the problem without assuming anything regarding what had been replaced or repaired before .....so far the machine starts and runs good. Thank you all for your help