I was thinking of switching the 555E from 15w40 to 5w40 engine oil. The main reason is to help with cold starts. A few years ago I put in all new battery cables and connections which did help, but I always thought I had a bad cell in the battery. Well, yesterday, I picked up a new one, installed it today and the same thing happened… Slow, sluggish, engine turnover and not nearly enough to start it. Granted it was about 3° outside, but for sure I thought that would help. I do believe that the glow plug a.k.a. heating element is bad. I tested it and got 9 V to it with the key turned far enough to turn it on, so I know it is getting power. I’m going to replace that and see if it makes any difference. I don’t think I will have any problems switching to a 5w40 other than paying double for the oil because it’s now synthetic. The only oil I’ve put in the machine in the last 6 years is conventional but I have no idea what was used previously. The machine only gets used about 100-150 hours or so a year but it’s kind of disheartening every time I go to use it in the winter months I can never easily get it started. Any thoughts for or against the switch?
Don’t overthink it. 5W-40 works great in cold weather. I’ve been using a lot of Chevron this winter. Especially, helpful during that -40F streak we had the first part of the month.
Synthetic oil makes a huge difference for cold weather starting. A block heater works wonders to.
I currently have it in most of my tractors. Cost more, but I think it is worth it.
1500 watt coolant heater minimum, 2000 watts better. 1 hour heating, all will be good.
Unfortunately I have no power where the machine is, so block heaters are not an option. Sounds like the initial consensus is that the switch would be worthwhile. Anyone think switching to a pure synthetic will cause harm? Only 4500 hours or so on the machine but it’s 28 years old. No major leaks, but if it sits for a week I will see a few drops on the ground.
It gets complicated, real quick. What do you mean when you say “pure synthetic”? That could mean a POA to some people, to other people, it may refer to a low SAPS group III. Chevron Delo is a group III base oil. It’s not a pure synthetic. It’s not even a synthetic. Think of it as a highly processed group III that works like a POA. What you want is the low viscosity index How do they legally call it a synthetic? “The late 1990s lawsuit between Mobil and Castrol established that highly refined Group III base oils could legally be marketed as "synthetic" in the US. Mobil argued that only PAO-based (Group IV) oils were true synthetics, but the court ruled that chemically altered mineral oil fits the definition, allowing Castrol to use it in their SynTec product . “
My diesels have always had 2 12 volt batteries. A lead acid battery delivers only 40% the cranking power at 0 F it would at 70F. Two big batteries will help. Warming the intake with a propane torch will help. If you had electricity, a hair dryer down the intake would help. Odds are good your operators manual calls for a light oil in winter. Before synthetic diesel oil was common I used 10W-30
In other words, switching to a 5w-40 does not cause problems. It’s just a switch from a mediocre group III to a better group III.
Case 580 Super N recommends 0W-40 for temp down to -39 F. I run it in summer also.
I personally don't like switching old diesels that have run conventional 15w40 their whole life to new light weight synthetics. A good compromise is 10w30 Rotella conventional. Block heater is best, even if you have to take a small generator out to run it. I have block heaters on almost all my older diesels. It was 5F last night, I plugged my 1971 IH 454 diesel in for about 15min, fired right up no problem. Even well below zero an hour is all most of them need, some of the big diesels have two block heaters. Freeze plug heaters work best, circulating type work well also, lower radiator hose heaters are easy to install but not as quick or efficient.
Only problem I see, is if you have a few drops now, expect a lot of drops, if you go to synthetic. Older seals don’t like the lighter weight synthetic. I also would go to the Rotella TO 10-30w
Use it in all our machines... Great all season oil IMO
15W40 to 0W40 is a world of difference. I have in front of me Caterpillar SEBU6250-15 dated 2008 that states that 15W-40 is only good to 15 Degrees F or Minus 9.5 C. So at 3 degrees F you are using oil that will be way too thick and uses too much power to crank and don't do the engine any favours. If you had oil pan heaters, that would be a different story. Also a faulty intake air heater will make it hard to start. Same publicaton states that 0W30 is only rated down to 0F. I did not write any of this publication, but will say that it has been my decision maker for a long time with good success. It is always in my truck for customers who like to argue. \ Simon C
0w-40 is good stuff. Tens of thousands of gallons get used in the patch. It was hard to source during the shutdown. Plenty of availability now. ISO’s, totes, drums and cases. It can still be a little tricky to find on a shelf if you just want a couple gallons. A little more expensive than 5w-40. But, your mileage may vary.
I like using the 0W40 oil myself. The 5W40 oil is good also but is actually according to Cat only rated at Minus 30 C or minus 22F. Depends on what temperature a persons equipment is starting at, along with whether it is block heatered, or inline coolant heatered. Lots of Petro Can 0W40 Duron SHP oil available and good price at bulk dealer here. Simon C
5w-40 and 0w-40 CK-4 DEO products have overlapping viscosity index numbers and pour points. Typical the pour point difference is no more than than 5C. But, sometimes 5w-40 has a higher VI. There is no set standard. The data sheets are important for comparison.
I try not to use my machines when it is real cold. Most of the time, if I am using my machine in the winter, it is above 0F. So far this winter, I have used my plow truck for every snow storm. Soon I may need to break out the hoe due to the fact that I will need to stack the snow. Has been a cold, windy, snowy winter in North East PA.
I appreciate everyone’s opinions on this. I think my first step is to get the glow plug heater to work and then see if that helps matters. Possibly I can find a block heater that uses the 12 volt battery vs a 110v plug since I have no power. Just haven’t had time to look yet.
Maybe a 12v battery heater. The math doesn’t work for a 12volt block heater. That would on the same level as a perpetual motion machine.
You could bring a small 110v generator and plug in the block heater to it, and let it run for a hour before you try to start it.
I do that. I carry a Honda EU2200. Plus, it has a 10amp 12v battery charger built into. it will run about any 20amp 115v circuit. Warm up the engine and top-off the battery at the same time. I mean, it works great until the tank farm crew pilfers them. A $grand per pop. Those dirty dogs.
I was also thinking as an alternative, buy a small torpedo heater and blow it on the underside of the block. I have an f250 with onboard power so that might work vs buying a generator. I don’t feel like lugging my 10k watt one around Lots of options I guess. Just need to figure out what to do. Now only if it would get above 10 degrees and melt the 18 inches of snow we got in northeast Ohio last Sunday I could do something.
After World War II My father & his brother worked for Bellows Falls Ice Company, a very old company turned to logging after the market for pond ice failed. They had two Caterpillar D7 dozers. My father was assigned to the new one, his older brother the old one. Ralph would throw several armloads of fire wood, splash diesel fuel on it, and set it on fire. Sooted everything up a whole lot, but got the job done. By the 1980s loggers all had their pickups rigged to pump warm anti freeze through the diesel engines in the woods. Worked like a charm, but one had to be very dilligent about keeping all cooling systems clean. Some had block & head gasket problems introducing -20 F coolant into a 200 F engine suddenly. I have a cheap propane radiant heater 37000 BTU I can lay face up under an engine. On a cold day, it'll warm an engine in a short time. If you have on board power, use a hear gun, or hair dryer down the air intake. If batteries have the cranking power, it'll go. Milwaukee has a cordless one.
A lithium power station could work as well to power up the heater. They make portable ones.
Yes exactly; we use a Yamaha EF2000 for block heating off grid. Light/quiet unit. It will even run (just) the oil pan/block heater combo on our C12...
Apple Aiu Apple Air Tags will get those thieving baster**ds what they deserve.
I looked at getting a little solar panel (I was new to diesels at the time)until I realized that your average block heater is pulling 1700 watts basically the equivalent to your wife's hair dryer or a small microwave. How far away from power are you?
I don't know if you can get one, a grid heater is magic. It heats the air upstream of the cylinders. I'm amazed how effective it is. Before grid heaters I used a hair dryer, or heat gun down the intake.
I know that I found one for less than this, but they do sell universal style grid heaters. Glacier Diesel Power | Sure Start Inline Universal Grid Heater Do you have a hard starting diesel? We've got the answer. The new Sure Start intake air pre-heater by Glacier Diesel Power. Whether it's a diesel engine swap, hard starting farm equipment, Humvee, or a 2 stroke Detroit Diesel, your engine will benefit from the addition of the GDP Sure Start... www.glacierdieselpower.com
My Case Backhoe has a grid heater, my former backhoe did not. Both say NO ETHER. I find less starting fluid works better than more. My B275 British 1961 tractor has glow plugs that almost never have worked. A sniff of high grade starting fluid sprayed under the air intake almost always works. Somewhat newer IH tractor (1985 385) has a choke. In extreme weather spray starting fluid on the top of the hood, it usually responds. Diesel doesn't burn fast like starting fluid. Engines are timed for diesel. If you spray explosive ether into a diesel engine it tries to run backward, very unhealthy! A tiny sniff will warm the cylinders without firing way before TDC in piston travel.
There isn’t a service line to the property so that’s why I mentioned it wasn’t an option.
I was going to try that the next time I go out. Problem now is I can’t even get to the machine. Still 15 inches of snow to melt away
Gives you a good excuse to buy one of those suitcase inverters. Bought one for camping years ago and it’s become quite useful for a lot of things. Did not want to spend the money as i have 2 other 6500w generators and my Miller Bobcat but hated lugging those generators around. Needed a corded rotary hammer drill for drilling into granite the other day. Tried using the AC plug in my GMC, that was a fail, broke out the suitcase inverter and it worked pisser.
I had scored a small generator, 110v 3kw so fairly light. its enough power and big enough fuel tank to run out to a machine, stuff a salamander heater down underneath to warm up transmissions, fuel and hydraulics, and plug in the block heater and then go F off for an hour or two, a quick check of the battery voltage as well at the starter lug and toss a small 15A charger on to help charge and warm the batteries, you end up with a nicely warmed machine. Had -15 the other day, gelled fuel, cold batteries cold everything, just let the generator work its magic.
Amazing what 2 hours of heat will do along with warmed up battery . Wait 2 hours and save a blown starter or even more. Simon C
I would too if it wasn't so expensive! I get Rotella 5w40 off Amazon for less than our cost of Delo XSP
I also have a 555E. It was built in 1999. It is in very good shape with 2000hrs on it. I reside in Texas, it can get cold but not too often. My 555e will not start if the ambient temperature is below 50 degrees F. I replaced the starter motor because it went bad, also all the cables and battery. It did not resolve the cold start. It will start fine if I connect the charger/booster to it and set it to jump start. Mine does not have glow plugs by the way. I agree with post #8. I thought about building a rack and stacking another battery in there. I do know this, if I ever get into a situation where I gain access to a freeze plug I'm going to knock it out and install a block heater.
The op didn't have power where his machine was, but I had a Jeep with a lower radiator hose heater. Not the one with the pump, you just cut the lower rad hose and put this in line. Block used to get hot to the touch
I have installed quite a few Temro inline heaters on different models and they work well. Easy option on bottom radiator hoses if there is room. Simon C
Yes post #8 about a second battery will fix it as the voltage drops too low and the fuel solenoid drops out half way through the crank unless you are boosting is what I have seen many times. Simon C
I have noticed that when it’s cold, if you can get it on the first crank, even if if you have to keep the starter running until it over revs the starter, you have a much better chance of getting it running than if you back off and start cranking again. This is on everything I own, other than my Kubota. Not sure why, as I hate the fact I may be overheating the cables or the starter. It just seems, if I get it on the first go around, I’m good, if not , ima gonna need the jump pack. This seems to be true on gas and diesels. One of my sleds, if I don’t get it right off , I just pull the plugs and give it a half an hour. My Kawasaki SxS gets me leaved a bit also. Of course, I don’t like working in the stupid cold and snow either.
Interesting observation, going to try that next time if in a 'bind' over a difficult start...
Thanks guys for this info. I will look into this.
On any Diesel while cranking the heat is building in the cylinder, the faster the engine cranks the more likelyhood of it going. If a person cranks 10 seconds and then waits 30 seconds for the heat to enter the piston it will often fire better, but that is dependant on whether a person has too much battery or too little. Backhoes and the like that can fit 2 batteries in parallel should, but lots try to run with only one along with a boost. If a machine is used infrequently, spraying some oil into the cylinders from the air intake can help them to fire instantly as the compression goes way up. 2 Heat guns at the same time will also make a world of difference. Simon C
Do you have room for more batteries, or bigger batteries. Also, as machines age, every point where a conductor ends, to contact any object oxidizes. Might lose some energy in the form of heat at each point. A connected volt meter at the starter would reveal while you are cranking. This is true even where iron bolts to iron.
Model A Fords started reliably when new. Restored Model As don't. Look for resistance at any point electricity moves from one item to another. Ten points of conductance each resisting a bit, it won't start. Even an early machine might have 15 points where conductance matters, each contact weakens over the years.
This. Exactly how I roll. I start counting mentally and if it starts hitting by 20 seconds, I'm not letting off that key until I'm certain it will at least go for a few seconds before dying. If it does, hit it again and usually that's enough. I have had it happen too many times when someone else is there, and they start panicking that I'm going to burn out the starter, I let off, try again and the battery gives up before it gets enough heat built up. Most guys that are inexperienced usually bail after about 10 seconds, in their mind they cranked a minute and were burning up the starter. These same guys are running around crapping their pants at 20 seconds, with 10+ to go lol.
Most engines that fit into the hard-starting category I've been around, when you try again in 30 seconds it doesn't turn over quite as fast, and by the time it starts to hit the batteries are giving up. I will agree that almost always it is an application that never had enough battery from new, and the battery in it likely should have been replaced last fall.
There is a option to heat coolant off the 12v power. Webasto and I think eberspacher both make 12 and 24v coolant heaters that run off diesel. The big german cranes typically have them available as a option. They aren't cheap, but the ones I've been around work really well. Webasto Thermo Top EVO Diesel 12V Coolant Heater Kit with SmarTemp 3.0 BT Controller Preheat engine & cabin fast with the Webasto Thermo Top EVO 12V diesel coolant heater. 5 kW (17,000 BTU), SmarTemp 3.0 Bluetooth control, and full install kit. www.heatso.com
I have personally installed hundreds of the eberspacher heaters. Most were used to heat the cab of a utility truck while the operator was aloft working in a bucket truck. These heaters were awesome. They are very efficient with both power and fuel. They do make a hydronic model that is great as well. You can even program them to start at a given time so that your vehicle is warm when you start it. I see two problems with these units. 1. cost. They are usually $13-1500. 2. For an application where you are maintaining the warmth over time, they will kill the 12-24 volt batteries. As a note, the Chinese have similar knock off units at a fraction of the price. Not recommending these, just letting you know they exist. Espar Hydronic D4WSC Diesel 12V Heater Efficient Espar Hydronic D4WSC 12V diesel coolant heater for vans, RVs & trucks. 13,650 BTU (4 kW) output, low fuel use, ideal for off-grid heating systems. www.heatso.com
We have chinese knock off's of the cab heaters, and the real webasto and eberspacher ones. The chinese ones work, but the controls are bad, and they don't really last. You get what you pay for in our experience. The last chinese ones I bought were like $200. The webasto's have come down in price, but they are still over $1000.
I installed the Webasto heaters in my semi truck and loved them. I actually had fewer battery problems in cold weather even though the engine heater was running a small fuel pump and coolant pump. I'd set the timer to start the heater 1-2 hrs before I need to start the engine and it'd have that 15 liter block at 120 degrees. Nothing puts a smile on my face like an engine starting like it's 70 degrees when the actual ambient temp is -20 or lower. Warm air blowing from the vents immediately on startup is another benefit.
What you posted is exactly what I meant, and yes getting it to fire off after 20 seconds cranking will not kill the starter the first time, it is after too many 20 second starts. Your thinking is spot on. Simon C
Lots of these heaters around here and imagine how much starter, battery and engine wear as well. Simon C
Oh, I will be in the market, in the spring for batteries for sure. Last count, I think it was 5. My Kubota got a new battery last year, everything else is on its last legs. Have been using my jump pack quite regularly but really don’t like replacing batteries in dead of winter. I did test all the batteries in the fall and they all passed but it’s been a bad winter for batteries and most haven’t been changed in 5+ years. Found both backhoe batteries almost completely empty in the fall and in my excavator, had to replace the cables because they were all corroded in the fittings and the battery was leaking a bit.
I use a jump box and T6 5W-40 in anything that runs in the winter. The oil gauge is moving as soon as I hit the key. I started the 545D to move snow the other morning and when it was -4*. It kicked off instantly without any glow plugs or block heater. The jump box makes a huge difference when cranking.