Hi Guys, I have no idea what is wrong , my backhoe has never given me any grief...I have an excavator and a Skidsteer , so I don't use the backhoe all that often (one of the other rigs do the job better and faster), so I parked it and didn't look at it for approx. 4 weeks.... I hit the starter button and she purred like a kitten...so far so good, after a couple of minutes warming up I lifted the clam shell and raised the backhoe bucket to its traveling height, pulled up the stabilizers and shifted her into reverse...........nothing.......not a single movement....shocked, I then shifted her into forward.......nothing....AARRRGGHHHH I tried everything I could think of...nothing.......When I parked it a month ago, she was my jewel...absolutely perfect, today.....not so much....don't get me started ;-) HELP....What is going on ???? I am turning to the pro's , I have NO IDEA !!!!!
Check the oil level in the shuttle, dip stick at the starter, engine running. Check the gear shift lever. Check the neutral cut out switch, floor/ brake pedal. Unplug the cut out at the shuttle, left hand side of the shuttle at the F/R linkage, 3x5 round valve with the wire coming out of it, unplug it and see if it pulls. If it is a mech shuttle, check H/L shifter, gear shifter, clutch adjustment.
Thank You Sheepfoot, I'll get the book out tomorrow and see if I can figure out where half of the potential problems you mentioned are located....;-) I know that I checked the oil level (with it running) and it was full. Unplug the cut out at the shuttle ??? see if it pulls ??? pulls out...pulls back in ??? I'll go stare at it in the morning and see if I can figure out what you mean ;-) Thank You for all your help brother ;-)
He meant unplug the wire and see if the tractor "pulls" or drives. Check the 4 spd shifter and make sure it's in gear, then try another gear. Check your forward reverse shifter and make sure it is still connected. Good old Sheepfoot is a Case expert, but sometimes we have to translate for him.
Hi Sheepfoot, I saw the picture in the manual,of the cut out switch on the shuttle, you want me to remove the solenoid (clutch cutout at shuttle), or just the plug in connector and see if it pulls 12 volts ???
OK PULLS.... Got it... So if I unplug it, it will allow it to bypass it ??? and if that works ...do I replace the solenoid ???
I tried all the gears ...nothing Forward and reverse shifter "Looked like it was bottoming out both ways (but now that you have mentioned it, perhaps I will look better and see if it is moving freely without without being really connected ...stripped ???
If you unplug the wire and it works, you probably have a stuck declutch switch.
That is the one on the dash ?
or the floor ?
Either one.
OK..... You all got me so excited ;-) I went right out this morning and unplugged the clutch cutout solenoid (I felt sure this was the problem/ what else could it be, I said to myself) BOOO HISSSS ;-( Nothing.....It didn't change anything ;-( But I did notice for the first time , that before I unplugged it... my gear shifter easily ran through all four gears and I put it in first gear and started the engine....once I had confirmed that it wouldn't go forward or reverse, I tried to change gears and it feels like it is stuck in gear, I turned it off and it still is in first (stuck) ???
OK.. I just went out again and at first it seemed like it was still stuck in first, but then it slipped out and was again easy to insert into and out of any of the gears... I unplugged the Solenoid (clutch cutout at shuttle), and tried reversing and forwarding in each gear....but it doesn't move one little bit...nothing, it's like there is no tranny, the motor is purring and there is no connection to the tires ;-(
OK... Since I can't figure out anything anyway....I decided to try running it under "no-load", so I used the front bucket to lift the front tires and the stabilizers/outriggers to lift the back tires....and VIOLA.......nothing, she isn't going anywhere....I unscrewed the emergency brake (just to make sure) and still nothing....when I say nothing, I mean.... I am pouring on the gas, but it just barely rotates the back tires an inch or so and the beginning of the acceleration and doesn't continue spinning even though the motor in accelerating ;-(
machine not moving Well lets think this back, you have checked the fluid level on the dipstick near the starter, you have unplugged the two wire connector on the solenoid and left it unplugged and tried moving it. Have you raised the rear wheels of the ground and turned them by hand, Will they spin?. Have you placed the gear shifter in neutral, in gauged the F/R lever and looked to see if the drive shaft is turning from the shuttle ?. Have you released the parking brake lever, this goes back to spinning the tires by hand, if the tires will not turn the parking brake cable or cross shaft on the trans, runs from brake housing to brake housing and applies the parking brake could be frozen up. We need to know this, with the trans 4 speed in neutral and in gauging the shuttle lever, does the drive shaft turn when you give it some fuel, both forward and reverse.
OK.. I am going to try all of that ...right now....back in a couple of minutes ;-)
OK... WHEW.... That was a lot ;-) Fluid level...perfect two wire solenoid connecter unplugged/left off Rear wheels raised up......spin freely by hand (when spinning drivers side, passenger side goes opposite) Gear shifter in neutral....engaged the F/R one at a time....drive-shaft moving /but always the same direction regardless of F/R position and yes....drive-shaft moves faster with acceleration....than with idle. BTW...since I have you on the horn, is the shuttle really "supposed" to be filled from the dipstick ????? that thing is almost level, seems a stupid way to fill it, couldn't they have made it a right angle or at least a 22 degree.....something...to make filling easier ???
I would pop out the floor pan and remove the top of the tranny and see what has gone away in your transmission.
Hey Waterman, So you think it's a tranny thing ...bummer so the tranny has a lid that unbolts, and I'll be able to see what is broken, is it under pressure, or can I turn it on and watch it with the lid off ???
you said your driveshaft is turning coming out of the power shuttle and going into your transmission when the tires were off the ground. So if you have power going into the transmission but your wheels are not turning when the transmission and the power shuttle are in gear i would suspect something gone bad in tranny. Yes you can unbolt the top of the transmission and look into it when it is running. Beware of 90 wt gear lube being thrown out off the gears. But nothing is under pressure in the transmission. This is your transmission at the rear of the backhoe not the power shuttle in the middle of the hoe that is coupled to the engine. Just to be sure we are on the same page....
Yeah.... That makes sense.... I'll have to try what you are proposing... I don't know anything about how these things work, but it just seems odd to me that, without any issues whatsoever, not a clunk, or a grind etc etc... this tranny just ups and dies....weird, I used it to load 100 yards of manure one day, park it and wait 4 weeks start it, and it is completely dead.....not a lurch, not a squeak ...nothing....very weird. Anyway.... when I remove the seat, is there a trick to dealing with the spring ?
leave it together and just take the four bolts that hold it to the floor. did you have the transmission in gear and the shuttle in gear when you had the backhoe lifted off the ground?
Sent p.m.
OK.... Here's the new deal...... I went out and lifted all four tires off of the ground, in gear (1-4) and in F or R, the driveshaft was turning, but I was able to stop it with my hand grip, it had no power to the tranny (it was turning by osmosis ?????), ....I was just getting ready to come back to the forum, and address this new issue, when I decided to double check the shuttle fluid, my laborer had said it was full and I never had checked myself....so I checked.....no reading, .......................added 1/2 gallon, brought it up to the hash marks (while idling), I went to look at the drive shaft, now that the shuttle was full of oil, it was moving at MACH speed, wayyyyyy faster than before, I decided right then and there , not to try my hand grip ;-), I lowered her down and it took off like a bat out of hell ;-) OK....I have seen this new issue addressed before here on the forum, does anyone know where? It goes right into Reverse and makes a good connection, not so in Forward.... if I am in Forward...everything is normal, but if I go from reverse to forward, I have to give it some acceleration to make the initial connection ??????? Going from Forward to reverse...no problems....only the opposite has issues, but once I give it some acceleration, she is fine through all gears, until I have to go in reverse ,
Well, I will not ask you to check the oil level again. At this point you need to correct any play in the linkage to the shuttle valve, the control arm is held tight by the solenoid being screwed up tight to it, and the ball joints with play can make it so the shuttle link misses the detent when shifting. I would check the charge pump pressure at the rear port, looking at the rear of the shuttle to the front of the machine, place you hand on the top housing above the drive shaft. A tube goes into the housing there, just to the left and forward you will find a pipe plug, unscrew it and install a test hose and gauge 300 Psi. Start machine and check pressure in neutral at idle should be 65psi, next run it at 2000rpm and check, should be around 130 psi. You can check F/R with the brakes set and trans in 4th gear (use care) it could drive threw the park brake, do the same test/ forward at idle read the pressure then full throttle read pressure and the same in reverse, idle then full throttle write the pressures down. The oil must be up to temp before testing, and do not leave it in a stall but just a few 5-15 seconds while getting your readings. You can pick up a cheap trans test kit threw harbor freight if you need one. This will help you later if you have to go in it or pull the control valve out.
Thank You Brother... I will try that tomorrow ;-)
Hi Sheepfoot, I got under her today and the Solenoid (clutch cutout, at shuttle) has "positive stops" built in, what can be adjusted ??? I did notice the arms that control it have adjustments (threads), but I would assume they would adjust the solenoid to make contact with the "positive stops"...what am I missing brother ???
I was looking that it may be a flow issue due to a partly blocked port. The link on the shuttle spool has a half moon file type slot that slides up on the threaded end before the solenoid screws up tight against it. If the solenoid is loose that lever can move 1/32-1/16 on the end of that spool when moving from F/R , along with the play in ball joints, wear on the housing stops, wear on that linkage stop flats. I remove the linkage with the ball joint at the lever' 1/4 nut and lock washer, use your hand to feel the neutral detent while turning it from F to R and stop in the center, next turn it to the forward detent and stop, then check it for added travel, do the same for reverse and note the extra travel. I know this sounds like B/S but you are on the west coast, and I am less than 5 miles from the ocean on the east. What we know is it ran low on fluid, I am trying to cover some checks before running pressures, and either asking you to take the spool apart, install some new seals inside the shuttle, or replace the charge pump, to get this delay in shifting out of it, really need the pressure test to see what it is pumping, and how much pressure you have.
Hi Sheepfoot, You are 2hrs and 16 minutes from my brother in Wake Forest ;-) What you are describing makes a lot of sense, I am hoping like crazy that you are onto something here, I would love to be able to fix it myself (and without having to take any big thing apart, like the shuttle etc etc )... if I can resolve this issue with some mere adjustments....I am in Babyyyyyy ;-) I am going to try what you proposed... what I don't get is ......if I am manually controlling the shuttle lever..... and the shuttle solenoid, is simply out of adjustment and is "going to far" (all the way to the positive stops), then wouldn't I be able to "not press the lever all the way, which would be , in a sense" like "backing off the allowable travel" ????
OK....Here goes......drumroll please........I removed the linkage with the ball joint at the lever rod end. removed the 1/4 nut and lock washer, I used my hand to feel the neutral detent while turning it from F to R and stopped in the center, next I turned it to the forward detent and stopped, then I checked it for added travel, did the same for reverse and noted the extra travel. I don't think it's traveling past the detents, (they seem to be in "lockstep" with the positive stops built into the block),but what were you saying about a partially blocked port....that sounds promising......what can of worms will I be opening up if I remove the solenoid lever, is the partially blocked port , you were referring to,behind that, is it something I can remove and clean, that could make a difference...... I am thinking (like you), that it is simply an adjustment needed (well....hoping actually ;-)
What can of potential worms am I getting myself into to fix this leak ????
That thing is full of surprises, check the breather on the top of the shuttle, to the right of that rear tube, screw it out and clean. Remove the four bolts holding the drive shaft, slip it out of the rear or tie it up. Loosen the nut, remove the washer (may be loader with silicon also) bump the yoke off. Pull the seal/ clean and install new seal, install yoke and put some silicon under the washer and install, install nut and tighten to 80 ft lbs. Install drive shaft back.
By the way, you may also find two seals, the yoke could have had a groove in it, and they did not have a speed sleeve, so they installed two.
Hey Brother, Question of the day ;-) Why do people go through the trouble of putting in a plug below the shuttle screen sump ???? Doesn't the shuttle need to be drained anyway, why not just remove the whole pan, clean everything real good, and then slip on a new gasket for the pan...what am I missing ???
It's sorta like the pan on an automatic transmission, if there's a plug, you wear a lot less oil than when you tip the pan a little on the way down.
Well ...That's true ;-) Mine came with a plug (I thought all did), and from what I was reading on the forum, people were using the new plug to gain access to the bottom of the screen ! Maybe I mis-understood something (wouldn't be the first time) Thank You Brother !!!
The C/D/E/K phase 1 all had the same shuttle but they made a change and added the drain plug along the way, some drilled the pans and installed a pipe plug to drain them. Most service books want you to clean the screen, so if there is no plug to drain, you will pull the pan and be able to remove the screen, clean, inspect, replace the o ring, and put it back together. On the forum you see the drilling of the 580/580b to get to the screen, this is a different beast because it takes hours of work to get at that pickup screen to check and clean. Also their is both cast and stamped pans for your machine, I have seen people take the stamped pans and make a larger 2.25 quart to a 4.25 adding the extra sump area.
That clears it up...Thank You Brother...I learn something new everyday.....I Love You Guys ;-)
Did you ever find a gauge to check you pressures on the shuttle ?.
I am High-Tailing it to Harbor Freight sometime next week to get one (35 miles away ;-( What were you saying about a partially blocked port....that sounds promising......what can of worms will I be opening up if I remove the solenoid and lever, is the partially blocked port , you were referring to,behind that, is it something I can remove and clean, that could make a difference...... I am thinking (like you), that it is simply an adjustment needed (well....hoping actually ;-)
Would really like to hear some pressures, I looked at the harbor freight today, and did not see the trans test gauge, only the engine oil and that set will not give you the pressure range. Found a otc set around $85.00 on line that goes to 320 psi will get you the link. I spent a lot of time around wake forest working on machines and dated a girl that lived in Youngsville, in my past. Still have family in Durham, Granville co. and travel up often to enjoy some rest. It's nice up in that area, here the pace is fast/fast/fast living mon-thurs and letting the visitors have it the rest of the time.
Northern Tool has medium pressure guages in their pressure washer parts aisle for less than $20, and small premade hyd hoses, too. Then you just need an adapter.
Northern tool has brick and mortar stores ?
I found this one at northern tools online... is this the one I should get ??
Try tooltopia tools on line, they have several kits, the number I was looking at is statu16pb, it has fittings/two gauges/6' hose/case/quick connects. It's around $60.00.
Thank You Brother ;-)
I ordered it ;-) But I'll be honest...I have NO IDEA what I am going to do with it, once it gets here ;-) Where do I hook it up ??
I know I am a pain, being an unknowledgeable newbie.... but I really don't know what to do with this pressure gauge ;-) and ;-) When I take off the nut and washer to remove the rear seal @leaking shuttle, do I need a gear puller, or does it slide out ,with a little tug....does the nut and washer hold it in place ???
It has a splined shaft and is held in place by the nut and washer.
Little late getting back to you, if you go back in the posts you will see that I asked you to screw out the plug on the top of the shuttle to the left of the tube that screws into the top rear, check the thread pitch on the hose end and use a bushing in the kit if needed to fit the port, install the 300psi gauge and start the machine checking the pressures like said and record the pressures. It's not that bad, should not take but a few min to run the pressures. This will tell the give you the condition of the charge pump, internal seals on the F/R clutch pistons along with some other tests after them. The yoke should come off without to much work, the shaft is straight splined and the nut and washer holds it on.
Sheepfoot said "By the way, you may also find two seals, the yoke could have had a groove in it, and they did not have a speed sleeve, so they installed two." Hi Brother, I'll bet you that you said that because so much of the seal was exposed in the pic I posted ....but I didn't have two, the one I did have was only in about 1/8" OY VEY
Did you have a grove in the yoke?, did you clean the breather on top of the shuttle yet ?. looks like you are making progress.
No.... and I can't imagine why the seal never got installed correctly, or that it lasted as long as it did, just hanging on by an 1'8" I've had it for 7 years and I don't know when the guy who had it before me, put it in !!! I have to run out of town for a week, I'll check the pressures then. What do you mean by "clean it "... I thought you just wanted me to take it off and insert the pressure gauge there ???
You have several ports on the shuttle with the pipe plugs, you also have a breather, it's a small fitting on top of the shuttle with a little cap on top, you screw it out and wash it. This is about the size of a 45 bullet, thinking maybe some back pressure caused the seal to push out, I would clean it first chance you get to see if it is clear.
Thank You soooooo much Sheepfoot for all of your help....I really appreciate it..... I just sold the Backhoe to Rod Hampton , and gave him a link to this thread to continue on his quest to solve the Forward/Reverse Mystery.. Again ...Thank You all sooooo much... You guys are awesome !!!!