Hello All, Its been a bit since I posted last, but I read through this section quite often and I'm hoping someone here has some experience that could help me. Since i acquired my 580b its had an intermittent rotational tick in the rear end. It is most noticeable when moving at faster speeds and rarely is heard when moving slowly. When changing out the shuttle fluid and draining what looked like yellowish puke from the rear diff I went looking for a way to clean out the gunk from the rear end. After pulling off the rear access/pto cover i noticed something stuck in the sludge in the bottom of the case. I was hoping it was a wayward leaf or similar, but when a handheld magnet dragged out a single broken off gear tooth I knew I was in trouble. At first I couldn't figure out where it came from, but after narrowing down by shape and size, then getting an inspection mirror at just the right angle while a friend slowly rotated the wheels, I saw that it had relatively cleanly sheared off of what seems to be referred to as one of the spur gears. Its one of the smaller straight cut gears that directly drive the 2 big final drive gears on either side of the case. Question is, has anyone else had this happen or maybe can speculate as to what would cause this? after looking up the part it seems like that side is tied into the diff lock function possibly. Also, is this repairable without splitting the tractor? it seems like there is a removable side cover that hold this gears shaft in place.... Any info and relevant experience would be very helpful as a family friend suggested that the best option might be to simply fill it back up with gear oil and try not to strain it too much...
They call that a Pinion gear. And yes access is thru the side cover once get all the other stuff out of the way like the Tire and wheel.
we call the big gear the bull gear and the small one the bull pinion
anyone have experience doing a replacement of this gear? opinions on what causes a failure like this? would anyone put off a repair like this if the machine was only used lightly?
Shock Loaded, Wheel spinning and caught Hard.
If all it is doing is knocking, it's not jumping or slipping and catching, I have seen things run the rest of their life with one gear tooth missing.
any time a gear tooth is missing, it overloads the next tooth and could cause another one to break or jam. i personally would just fix it, if the parts are reasonably priced and time allows- then it will not fail later at an inconvenient time or place and before it damages the bull gear. just my 2 cents
Call me a pessimist,...... I tend to agree with @56wrench Sorry @mitch504
Fix it. There is plenty of great help and experience here........just make sure we aren't drunk-posting repair advise LOL
Welllllll, if it was mine, I'd fix it, cause I agree with 56wrench, too. But, I have seen a lot of stuff run a long time with one tooth missing. If this is a homeowner machine, or something that is going to run 4 hrs a month burying conduit, and they take my advice, it'll jam tight in the highway in twenty minutes. If we hadn't discussed it, it'd go 20 years.
XcessReality ... Are you a betting person? Consider yourself as betting against the house. When another tooth breaks, the odds are the machine will be working far from the shop. Will the broken tooth fall harmlessly to the bottom of the gear case? Will the bull gear survive the broken gear or like many gears sets transfer damage? Folks do win the lottery against the odds. But the odds are against them and you.
It may run forever but if a new tooth breaks off and gets between the gears it will break the case . Been there done that on other equipment.
Not my luck either, make it right when know its broken or pay the consequences when grenades.
The adjacent teeth to the one missing quite likely no longer have the strength in them to resist several more of them breaking off at once. If were mine it would already be dismantled.
The only evidence (possibly) of the broken tooth is the intermittent rotational clunk i spoke of. if that is the source or the noise,its been like that for years now... the machine originally belonged to a neighbor of my father's and he borrowed it to demo his driveway almost 10 years ago and remembers it making the same noise. I am personally in favor of fixing the issue, My father (who's help I'd likely need to repair the gear) is of the opinion that its coming from the brake..maybe now that I found the tooth he will change his opinion.... part of the dilemma is that the "shop" is my backyard and though I have a well equipped garage, it's not large enough for the tractor. It is definitely a homeowner machine, but I do have some big plans and would like to see it running and fully functional. Looks like I'm going to give it a shot taking it apart. I'm assuming the shaft only comes out from one side or another and if memory serves it's likely from the left side (sitting in the seat) due to the ring gears engagement with the pinion. (I assume that would prevent the shaft moving the opposite way) now is the time to give me any of those useful tidbits as even removing a rear tire is likely going to be a project. I do have a very small homemade kubota b6000 backhoe loader to help, but if that tire weighs what I think it could, it may just be too much for it.
Removing a back tire is no big deal. Park it so that a hard surface (concrete, plywood,thick rubber mat, hard dirt) is under the tire and a couple of feet out to the side. Block it up so when the lug nuts are removed, the lug studs are centered in the holes. Lean the top of the tire toward you just enough to clear the studs. Grab the front and back of the tire and pull alternately so it walks toward you. Once you clear the hub, turn it and roll it away. The walking process is easy for one man, very hard for two.
Ooops ! I was typing the same thing and time that Mitch was. So, I just deleted the message.
Tinkerer, you ever tried walking a tire out when someone wants to "help" you?
anyone with any experience as far as what side to access from? ect..
No I haven't Mitch. I have wrestled tires by myself my entire life. As you know it isn't hard to do, if you go slow and keep it balanced upright. I cannot imagine a two man scenario on a rear tire. I was going to post earlier that if the tire gets off balance to let it go to the ground to prevent a back injury. Also to use the backhoe to pick them up if they do go over. I was 77 years old last year when I put new rear tires on my T/L/B. It was a piece of cake.
That's just genuine badass right there............piece of cake...ya probably knocked em off the rims too didn't ya......lol
Like changing a rear on a arm tractor, only mine have 60 gal of ballast in EACH. Have to drain them first then I most often leave rim ON tractor, except when bead will NOT break free. My bead breaker is now gone so will have to invest in something else!!
Pull the brake cover and side plate off the side that is broken and your there.I never pulled the tire but I guess it would make more elbow room,I may have one if I can find it.
shopguy, or anyone else... is this really something I can service by pulling brakre cover with the Trasmission still in the tractor? I read through the steps in the service manual and now I'M scared that im going to need the special spacers/tools listed and a bit intimidated that these gears might be a bit hard to get off the shaft? Has anyone aftually done this type of repair before? sorry for all the hemming and hawwing, I got called in to work this weekend and as such never had the time to start to pull it apart, but aparently had just enough time to take a closer look and begin to psych myself out.. Just so there is no confusion...posting the relevent pages from SM.
No special tools needed.you can substitute clear packing tape to cover splines for sleeve in inset G.That gear is easy to get out after side carrier is off, you can support differential by applying opposite side brake..the carrier itself can be a little hard to remove if the o-ring sticks..just be patient.you may need hand held impact driver w/ large phillips bit to remove counter sunk screw in carrier.I assume from the pictures you have top cover off,because the bullgear for that side has to come off in order to get the side gear out,that's why removing tire makes it easier to slide axle out of bull gear...before you remove anything check your differential for side play,on my machine the spider gears and pins were smoked from the side gear thrust washers disintegrating...while you've got it apart replace the oil seal, o-ring,and the diff lock oil seal.part #'s20,28,29..make sure when you reassemble with new gear you check set proper end play/drag with thrust washer thickness for side gear/spider gear clearance and side cover squish with the large shims....that whole process has been covered extensively in this forum in recent months...good luck''''
WHATTT?? Can I call you DAD!?
In Law's forever family friend and farmer was 83 when I last saw him changing a rear on a 4020 deere by hand. He passed a few years later of Cancer but stayed at their farm until that point. Wilbur Beckemeyer, Great man and Hat off to his abilities without much training, been gone almost ten years now.
Sure !! Its a lot better than Grandpa !
Ok, This is what I needed....THANK YOU! so top cover isn't off, Pic taken from open rear PTO/Access Cover. Should I Take the top cover off?
Don't know for sure,If you can get the cotter pin and nut off the end of axle you can probably wrestle the gear on and off from there, otherwise you need to remove the floor panel. Maybe one of the really smart guys can chime in here...If you've got time, getting top cover off allows easier access and better inspection of stuff in there, like differential play and possible other damage to internal parts you can't see from rear cover
You're probably gonna have to whack on outside axle hub to get er moving,be careful not to pull it out too far or you risk damaging inside seal with sharp edges in inside splines
Sorry about multiple posts .My original post contained all this info ,but I had to go outside for a minute and it disappeared..you only need to separate bull gear from axle enough to make enough room for side gear inside flange to clear...put all that crap together and that should give you an answer
Upon further reflection ,when you try to drive out axle I think the outer bearing and seal are going to pull out with it ,but I think you should be able to reuse seal..Once again maybe really smart guys can advise...I had the trans axle out for a full rebuild and didn't worry about reuse of seals....Ok I'm done.....
XR ,I don't want to steer ya wrong about the bull gear having to come off...I was thinking about it at work tonight, that's right working on trucks, thing about backhoes (I got issues) but there may be enough wiggle room once the side diff carrier is off to get that side gear out,don't really know because as I stated earlier my transaxle was out of the machine....much easier to work on..wouldn't want ya to remove something you don't have to... hopefully one of the seasoned vets can steer ya straight...
I wish I could say I was reviving this thread to report on how the fix went, but life and other projects got in the way, and only in the past weeks have i returned to try and get this machine back to work... I followed all the valuable advice I recived here, and I am currently at a crossroads. I have removed the carrier plate (by the was, it was firmly corroded in place and required cutting torches and large sledge hammers to remove.) It came off in pieces, as such I have a replacment part on hand as well as a selecton of shims for the carrier. In removing the brake housing I found the brakes needing replacement as well, and have the parts to do both sides, however that brings me to the crossroads I was speaking of. I am at the point where I cannot remove the short shaft (the broken gear that originally set me on this path) due to the interfearance from the bull gear... It almost clears once the carrier plate is removed and you can manuver the differential shaft slightly. I realize that I will want to service the brakes on the other side based on the condition of the current side, but will i gain the access i need by removing the diff lock assem. and brake housing from the other side or do i have to risk damaging the oil seals by puling the axel as nessisary to remove the bull gear? I cant be sure from the drawings I have, but i seems likely to me that i might get the little bit of clearance i need to remove the short shaft if i can back out the diff. shaft slightly from the other side. Any ideas? I will post some pics shortly
here are some pics...
My educated guess is that the bull gear needs to be moved out of the way, at least, to get the side gear out. So, that means, you need to push the axle out........ With both brake housings off, I don't think the crownwheel carrier will move far enough to allow the side gear clearance to be removed.
ok, If that's the consensus.... I just didnt want to open the door to possible axel seal damage and yet another obstacle. I can't stress enough just how difficult it was to get the carrier plate off... First was the relatively small slotted screw that holds the carrier plate on. It took a full week of heat, oil, and impact to get it free. I ended up ordering a special slotted bit designed for a drag link. That 1/2" bit on my impact driver, with a friend holding pressure on the bit while i drained a battery impacting on that little *@*!*!@* screw.. finally got it to come out. Then, to add insult to injury, the carrier plate wouldn't budge. Another full 2 weeks of heat, prying banging and pulling did well to crack, and break off almost all but the cylindrical center ... then another few days involving my father insisting he can burn it loose with a cutting torch (started to melt material but his torched were too small). I got the call from him that he found bigger torches which spurred me (or scared me) in to giving it one more shot. So a buddy held the impacting bit of a small jackhammer on a flat spot we had developed to try and get it to spin, while I wailed on it with a 10lb sledge finally broke it free... So now maybe you can understand why i don't want to pull apart ANYTHING I don't have too. With my luck so far, who knows what wall I will run in to. So if I could get the shaft out by taking apart the diff lock and the opposite brake, I could live with that as it needs to happen regardless...
Ok, axel backed out just enough to remove bull gear and broken side gear. Now two questions... first, is it likely that by moving the axel I will now develope a leaky seal, (should I do axel seals prophylacticly?) And the second, during this down time, I am going to drill/tap the clean out hole under the screen in the shuttle housing... the question being, is 1" npt too big for any reason? I know own most used 7/8... just wanted to make sure there wasn't a good reason not to go slightly bigger as I already have the nessisary tap and plug at 1"... Thanks in advance...
I only moved the axle just enough to wiggle the bull gear off, my best estimate is I had to move it out 1 3/8". anyone know if that means the splines are on the seal? I tried to take a picture in the recess to see, but can't tell. And the shuttle pickup clean-out hole.... any reason not to use 1" npt tap and plug? Please?
I had a shop that just didn't understand the preventive aspect of car repairs. I always said call me if there's a potential future problem. Answer the seal question yourself. How much effort will it take to replace the seal now, vs several months later?
1" is ok. Don't screw the tap into the screen.
I have the same issue.....Left hand "rear differential side gear" (part A144338) has chipped drive teeth on it. The cause looks to be about 1/3 of the bearing Reece support (the shoulder) on the opposite, right side of the bearing carrier plate that's between the case and the brake housing (previous owner(s) must have broken it). I fished out all the parts and chipped teeth and the bull gears and the differential and ring gears look undamaged. My question is, if I pull both left and right side brake housings and bearing carrier plates is there enough room to move the ring gear with both left and right differential side gears attached forward and turn so it can be removed so I can do the work on the bench WITHOUT pulling the axle shaft partially out and the bull gear off?
I know it’s a few months past but no. The bull gears have to come off in order to remove the left and right final drives. Axles have to be pulled out just enough to drop bull gears and remove. After that the drives can be pulled out both sides and then planet/ring pulled out from top.
Thanks, I've pulled both Bull gears and have it all out on the bench now.