Like many others, I've been a bit disappointed by the sluggish behavior of my 580B shuttle transmission in cold weather. It works fine when it's warm, but takes a good 5-10 minutes of warm up before it will move properly when the temp is below 30 F. I've had the shuttle, pump, and control valve all apart, and put in new seals, O-rings and gaskets. I didn't do anything with the torque converter. The shuttle was leaking so badly when I bought the tractor last fall that it wouldn't move at all, so I don't really know how it ran before. After the rebuild, I put in TSC universal tractor transmission/hydraulic oil. After talking with a friend who runs a transmission shop, I decided to try Dexron, so I drained the shuttle, bumped the starter a few times to get as much oil out of the system as possible, and refilled it with Dexron. It took 12 quarts plus a 30 oz can of Trans-X that my friend also suggested. Wow! What a difference! Now I can fire her up and drive right out of the shop within the time it takes to lift the hoe and loader - even on cold days. Of course, I give the engine a few minutes to warm up before running it hard, but now I can get it out of the shop and close the door without filling the place with exhaust. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to improve the performance in the higher gears - she's still a dog going up hills in anything higher than 2nd, but it sure will push in first! We've gotten about 3 feet of snow here in central PA during the last week, and I was amazed at how easily I can shove the stuff around. It's great to be able to push it all to the end of the parking lot and then scoop it up into huge piles - OK, so this is (obviously) my first experience with a TLB in snow, and it's really fun One other question while we're on the subject. I put pressure gauges on both the shuttle and TC pressure regulators. At 650 RPM, I'm reading 150 psi at the shuttle and 26 going to the TC. These numbers hardly change at all between cold and hot, and even with changing engine speed. After it's completely warmed up, the shuttle pressure increases to around 158 psi, but it varies only a pound or two between 650 and 2000 RPM. Of course, it drops dramatically if you push in the clutch, and drops and recovers if you shift. My shop manual has a table of pressures for these two test points, and the numbers they give would lead you to believe that the pressures should increase as the engine speeds up. On the other hand, the pressure ranges in the table overlap, so there's nothing that says that explicitly. The pressure regulators are both simple valves with springs, so I would expect the pressure to remain pretty constant, regardless of the engine speed. Am I missing something? Has anyone else tried measuring these pressures? Papa Goose
I can't speak to your pressure question but can relate to the sluggish 580B in cold weather. I have always lifted my rear wheels with my stabilizers and let the wheels turn in forward or reverse gear while the engine warms up. Your test using Dexron sounds good. I will give it a try. Thanks
I'm thinking the problem is in the torque converter - I'll bet the fluid needs to be warm so that it thins out enough to flow properly between the turbine vanes. The thicker fluid might just get "sliced off" by the blades (since fluids can't resist shear stress), rather than being "flung" from one vane to the other like it's supposed to. I'm not an expert, and that's just a guess, but it would explain what we're seeing. The Dexron is thinner at lower temps than universal trans/hyd fluid, and the Trans-X thins it out even more.
there is no proplem thats the way thay are ...old ,,slow,,and hanging on...don.t worry there just fine.....as for up hill power cud b the motors loseing power from age...
I don't think it's weakness in the engine or it would bog - the engine speed doesn't change as the tractor slows down. Old doesn't necessarily = poor performance. If a machine is maintained to factory specs, it should run like new. Change the oil and drive it forever - that's :my2c
Update on the pressure question - I took out the converter pressure regulator and found that the spring had relaxed a bit. After stretching it out and compressing it back to the correct length (this gets rid of the residual tensile stresses), my converter pressure went from 26 to 33 psi, which is now well within spec. I also added two shims to the shuttle pressure regulator, and the reading went from 155 to 175 psi, which is also a good number. After a quick run tonight, I didn't seen much of a difference in how it drives, but at least now I know it isn't a question of pressure. Maybe this is as good as it's going to get?
I know a chap that used to own a Case dealership during that time period. Customers that bought a new 'B' model would come back complaining about this problem, and were told to raise the machine off the ground with the outriggers, and turn the back wheels for a few minutes. However the problem never followed on to the 'C' model, probably because the shuttle/torque assembly was redesigned. Even when warm the difference between a B and C model is very noticeable. I've owned both at the same time and driving up a steep hill behind my house, showed a huge difference, seemingly in the effort required by the engine. The B would have to be flogged with black smoke rolling out, the C would climb it with ease at half throttle, both using 1st gear. Some 580B's are worse than others. I had one that absolutely would not move in the winter for the first few minutes, even pushing it with the bucket. Even stalling the converter for a few minutes made no difference. I got to parking it on a small hill, which seemed to work out quite well. The 580B is part of our history, it has done a lot of work in the past and still can. Phil
PG, you amaze me with some of the things you try in order to prove a point to yourself .. this forum is very fortunate to have both you and Phil here .. and that's :my2c
A lot of good info here, I have a 580B and have the same problems in cold weather. I will try the rear wheels trick and see how that works before I change the oil out in the tranie.
This is a common problem in Case 580B's I agree some 580B's are worse than others, it's all in how they have been maintained over the years. Sounds like you can either try the tricks that the other guys are talking about. I've heard the rear wheels trick before, and it seems to work on some. See how that works before you change the oil out in the transmission. If you have no success with that, it could also be the Shuttle Control Valve. If the rear tire trick doesn't work for you, and it takes a new control shuttle or some other parts, give Wengers Construction Parts a call. I'm sure they'll be able to help you out. 1.800.552.5080
Hey tloft - thanks for the nice words, but putting me in the same category with Phil is a mistake - when vintage tractor repair finally becomes an Olympic sport (as we all know it should be), he'll be on the podium! :thumbsup PG
No PG, I realize nobody is in Phil's category .. just that sometimes I come back here to see if there's an update to something and I'm just blown away that you have done what looks like a week's worth of work overnight just out of curiosity .. you have your own class here, and I'm positive Phil knows that also.
580B Won't forward/Reverse Fellows got a chance to buy a 580B, it in good shape and runs great several new hoses on it new tires, the fellow said all of the sudden it won't go forward or reverse, it has the shuttle shift, about 20 years ago I worked on one for fellow same kind did the same thing, I took the hoe off, seat, top cover and changed a small bevel gear in the read end, its been a while so does that sound right, and possible could that be with this one, any quick check that I can do, the fellow is asking 2,500 for the machine, don't want to jump in to far, thanks for any help, love this group, just joined got some stuff here wisdon pleanty of it, Joe G.
I am basically in the same situation you are in right now, I can get a good deal on a 580B that wont move. The guy said it moved before he let it sit, then he had to move it and had to push it onto a trailer with the hoe. I was just reading this thread and Papa Goose seemed to fix his machine.
Hey Matt - welcome to the forum! Just in case you haven't figured it out already, this is the perfect place to get the help you need to fix your machine. There are a lot of possible reasons why a shuttle would stop working. Actually, it's probably good that it was working and then wouldn't move, as opposed to "it went bang and stopped," because that means it might be something as simple as a fluid leak. If the fluid in the shuttle is low, you aren't going anywhere - not only does the fluid control the clutch packs, but it also runs the torque convertor - no fluid, no go. So, that's where I'd start. If you've got fluid and it still won't go, then the next thing to check is the pressures - you can tell a lot about what's happening (or not happening) by looking at the pressures at three critical points - the pump, the shuttle pressure (also shown on the dash indicator, assuming it's working), and the convertor pressure. Poor pressure doesn't necessarily mean a bad pump or seals - it could be as simple as a dump valve out of adjustment. Rule of thumb - go after the simplest, cheapest solutions first. There's nothing worse than replacing some expensive part only to find out that a spring had popped off somewhere. Also, if you're serious about fixing it right, go out and buy the best manual you can find, without regard to cost - it will pay for itself many times over before you're done. I prefer old-fashioned paper manuals - who wants to boot up a computer just to check the correct torque for a bolt? One more thought to keep in mind - working on the shuttle on 580B is a pretty serious challenge. I had to split mine to replace a leaking gasket, and it wasn't easy. Fortunately for me, I had a good place to work and access to good tools. This is not a job that you're going to do outside in the mud. On the other hand, the dealer quoted me $2800 to do the job, and that was just labor, so I figure I made myself some money doing it myself (I work cheap). Not to mention that it's fun to open it up and see how everything works! Hope that's helpful - keep us posted on your progress. PG