My 1979 has lost the side gear preload, replaced RH side gear seal and oring months ago only to find oil soaked pads and leaks again. I plan to remove equal amount of carrier shims from RH and LH sides to maintain backlash. Any ideas or precautions would be appreciated.
I can't tell you anything specific about this particular machine, but I can tell you that if your crownwheel bearings have lost their preload then they are probably on the way out. Any adjustments that you make will be very temporary I'm afraid.
Please remove the top cover and use a dial indicator to set the proper backlash, removing shims from both sides will move the ring gear in toward the pinion and could remove the required backlash, the pinion clearance is set by the LH shim set and rolling torque is set by the RH set. the trick is to get the backlash right and the rolling torque correct at the same time, I have set up many many of those and always I set preload into them rather than just minimum clearance, not heavy drag but noticeable. As it is right now you have no clue what the R/P backlash is and a mistake can cost you a ring and pinion set and lots of labor. Any questions post back, we are here to help. If you have a RH leak make sure the shaft seal for the differential lock is replaced, that is the cause of a lot of RH side soaked brakes, you should have installed a new one when the side gear was replaced but you should check it again. Mel
I replaced the seal and o ring. The right hand side gear had enough movement I didn't think the new seal had a chance of stopping the gear oil from entering the brake housing again. I was correct. I will pull the left side tomorrow and set up a dial indicator on the ring gear. Thanks for the reply, Andy
Andy, there is a small seal out where the small diff lock shaft comes out of the side gear, that is what I was referring to check, carefully to see if the back seal is real wet, It is very easy to roll those big seals also, you have to work the seal onto the shaft using something that will not cut it or some kind of a sleeve. The small outer seal is often the greasy brake problem
Mel, I am real confused now. It appears that the differential lock Is all in the DRY zone ( outside of the brake drum and bands and I don't see how differential oil could make it there other than the side gear seal. On another note if I lost preload on the right side gear why am I not seeing gear oil in the left side brake as the side gears preload together. Fixing to go pull the floor pan out and the differential lid. Will get the left brake off and figure this out. Had a total hip replacement 3 weeks ago and it's taking about twice as long to do anything. I have the manuals and 40 years of mechanical experience on different equipment. Thanks so much for the help, I can't stand to have an oil leak. Andy
Mule, How loose is the side gear movement? a seal will follow a certain amount of end play, if the loading was neutral with little or no end play the seal will take that up. How long after the side gear replacement did the leak start? I guess I would remove the plate and inspect the seal if there is no wetness out at the diff. lock area. If you loose preload it will be lost on both sides, one bearing pushes against the other to get the preload, you cannot set preload seperately
Hey Mel, I did find seal between the cross shafts and the right hand gear assembly but there's no oil coming out that far. Got the floor pan,transaxle cover and left brake off this morning. On the right side gear assembly I probably have an 1/8 " of movement at the end of the splined shaft. The left side has about hAlf that and the inside brake drum did have some oil on the brake pad. Before I remove either carrier assembly I am going to setup an indicator and see how much side to side play I have. After I figured out the preload I can start working on the ring gear back lash. Thanks again, Andy
Very good, then you will know where you are at, keep us posted, 1/8 " is a lot of play,There may be other factors causing that much play, such as worn thrust washers between the side gears and the differential cage.
Hi Mel, Ended up taking .015 out of the left and .020 out of the right. Backlash looked like. 006 when done. Went back with all new seals. ; Bleeding brakes this morning, got shut down for a grandsons wrestling match. Pretty confident the problem is resolved. Thanks, Andy
melben, Any chance you would explain how to figure backlash with the magnetic dial indicator? - Where on the ring gear tooth should the indicator sit and do you temporarily lock the pinion or ? and - is rolling torque the same as preload? - and how do you determine it? - with the bull gears and axles in place or without? Sorry for the elementary questions. I'm just trying to understand this aspect of my machines. I know it's not your job to teach mechanics 101 but if you care to share, I'm sure I'm not the only one who will benefit. Thanks.
Just work off the tip of a ring gear tooth and get the dial indicator as close to 90 deg. as possible, it takes a little to set up and you may have to do it several times during a setup procedure as the indicator will have to be moved as you change shimming to keep from damaging the indicator. Practice (on job experience) makes perfect they say. You will not need to lock the pinion, you will get a feel for it and will be able to hear the contact.
OK, thanks, I got that. What about the preload? That's the tension on the side shaft bearings, right? - controlled also by those same thin metal shims but on the right side after the backlash clearance is set on the left? - or the right combination of the two? I can understand it in simplified terms of a front wheel bearing where the nut and washer press against the bearing to take out the slop. More pressure on the bearing makes the wheel more difficult to spin by hand. Is that the same concept in a different scenario? What is the means of determining the right amount? Is there an equivalent to spinning the front wheel by hand? What's "not heavy drag, but noticeable" in a differential like that? Do you lose the preload from wear over the years? If the seals are bad, should the clearances be checked - or only if there's excessive play? I'm not just bored and doing an intellectual exercise. I've got 3 of these and they all have varying degrees of differential/brake/seal issues. My CK doesn't have the diff. lock, the C does, and the early K is 4WD. All different but still mostly the same. They're all clams - and I'm not referring to the front bucket - but they're paid for and do what I need to do.
There is a tool that goes over splines that keeps from damaging seal when installing side plate. Another way I have done it is to wrap splines all the way to area that the seal rides on with electrical tape. Start wrapping at seal area and work your way out so you can pull tape off and even pull it out from under seal when the side plate is installed. I personally like to have .010 to .012 backlash on a used ring and pinion. If you only have .06 you might want to check at a couple of different teeth to make sure it is not any tighter around the gear. If you got oil in the differential lock housing you probably have the seL out between the side gear and cross shaft. This seal is very thin.
The preload on the differential side gears was no doubt the issue with the oil soaked brakes. Before making any carrier shim adjustments I had over .085 of movement on the right side gear shaft with the brake removed but the plate secured with all four bolts. The side gear seal could not compensate for this much movement and the new seal had less than 20 hours on it with new brakes. I probably made a dozen shim changes during this process, I turned the differential by hand after every shim change. I wish in hindsight I had taken a backlash reading before making any shim changes but with the lid off and oil drained looking at the pinion I am confident it was excessive. Don't quote me but I think the manuals say .005-.009 for backlash and 5 to 8 ft lbs of rolling torque differential shaft. I pushed with the machine about 4 hours after the repair and it is in the shop now without a drop of oil on concrete floor. I feel good about the repair but this is only one man's opinion. Thanks for the help.
I just went threw this on an old 430, not happy with results but tractor is running. I had way to much clearance in ring and spider gears. My left bearing carrier outside bolt flange was broke right off and all around the bearing sleeve. All the shims were rusted so bad and not reusable. I could not drive the bearing holder out of the tractors housing. We then were able to drive it in and tightened the clearance up on ring and spider. Not right but up and running.. What is weird is i have no gear oil leaks as of yet lol... So glad you got your rig fixed up . Good info you guys provided
I just went threw this on an old 430, not happy with results but tractor is running. I had way to much clearance in ring and spider gears. My left bearing carrier outside bolt flange was broke right off the bearing sleeve. All the shims were rusted so bad and not reusable. I could not drive the bearing holder out of the tractors housing. We then were able to drive it in and tightened the clearance up on ring and spider. Not right but up and running.. So glad you got your rig fixed up . Good info you guys provided
Hi All: I have 580C and am replacing the side gear seals, and the brakes as they were covered with oil. So after reading through all of these comments and the service manual; am I correct in stating that every time the bearing carrier side seal needs replaced, a person has to drop the differential to set bearing preload, AND ring & pinion setting? (The side gear backlash is not changed). Side bearing Preload per manual is done with axle removed to set rolling torque. Rolling torque is set with no wheels on I assume. One can raise backhoe up and remove tires, but if they are filled with liquid…. No fun! If by chance one does not get it EXACTLY right the first time, and the seal starts leaking again SOON , you have to drop the differential again!??!? I am recovering from cancer and if that is the case, I don’t have energy for this and will have to sell. Too bad, good machine. Thanks, Richard
Mel: Not sure if this question is going directly to you or not. My basic question is: All settings related to this topic per manual are done with axles removed? Am I correct in stating that every time a seal side carrier seal goes bad, to do the job right, one has to remove the tires & axles and bull gears from the tractor , set side gear back lash with thrush washers, set differential bearing preload (rolling torque), and ring and pinion backlash. It this correct? Any leak on carrier bearing seal = remove axle? Thanks for all your posts. Richard
@richard22c Hello Richard, Usually if a side gear seal goes bad on a 580C, I would replace the seal without removing the carrier bearing plates. However, if there was any end float at the side gear, this would need to be addressed, if the repair was to be 100% successful. If the carrier plates were removed, generally you would keep the adjusting shims in their original positions. The axles & bullgears can remain in place to do either of these repairs. Ideally you would like to check backlash at the crownwheel & pinion, but unless you have the floor out of the machine & the top cover off the transaxle, it is impossible to do this & also not necessary to do to replace these seals. Rotating torque of the side gears is something I simply check by grabbing both LH & RH gears at the same time & turning them with some resistance - this is something that the experience of performing many rebuilds can give you. Technically, if there was "a little" too much end float, & the bearings were OK, you would pull .010" or .020" out of the RHS (diff lock) & this would give some bearing pre-load, with out altering the crownwheel backlash. After doing this, you would still check if the crownwheel & pinion had backlash with "an educated" rock backward & forward of the crownwheel...... There are other factors that can contribute to the "movement" at the side gears - wear between the cross shaft & crownwheel carrier worn or broken thrust washer spacers between the side/bull gears & differential spider gears to repair either of the above, then the bull gears & axles DO need to be removed. Also, don't forget to replace the small internal seal on the diff lock side. I hope this puts a little more light on your question.
alrman: Thanks for your help. I am past auto mechanic, just not use to the big equipment. I am going to try & work on tomorrow. The reason for this questions is that I don’t want to have to do this AGAIN in 2-3 months. Have read folks changed the seal and a few weeks later leaking again! So if not “perfect” do over soon. Main current issue: I cannot get side bearing carriers in w/o forcing. Something is binding. Both sides carrier have been removed for new brakes. Maybe try w/o O ring first? Maybe take the seal out to check fit first. Obviously folks have not had too much of a problem as they switch shims “frequently” to get right setting. Floor is out and the trans axle cover off. So I can check ring and pinion setting. Rolling Torque: Manual show set up on bench. The side gears drive the bull gears connected to the axle, connected to the tires on the ground? Thus confused “grabbing both LH & RH gears”? I must be really missing something here. Endfloat: = Definition? How much is too much? I don’t find specifications on this. Measured with dial indicator? I see side gear backlash in manual = .005 to .015” Perhaps they are one in the same? While installing new brakes, found out needs ring and pinion. Option 1 is to put back together and sell. Option 2 is put fix ring and pinion. Ring & Pinion Question: Have read much easier to drop trans axle for this job. When folks drop the transaxle on these, I have seen them raise up back end with hoe and roll axle out with the wheels on. Take wheels off, set transaxle on jack stands, rebuild it. Roll it back under to install. So…. Most likely tires are filled with liquid and weigh A LOT. I suppose people have fork lifts or overhead cranes to put add and remove tires? If so, this job is out of my league and I need to just put back together and sell. I can rebuild the differential, but don’t have equipment to move tires filled with anti-freeze. Thanks again for your response.
Hi Richard, 1) Bearing carrier install - while doing a set up for measurement, orings seals would not be fitted. Seals are only fitted on final/last install. Are housings properly cleaned? no rust? Using lube? Everything aligned? 2) Rolling torque - I would have the machine raised, with wheels off the ground if I were doing the job, in fact the wheels would be off for more room to work. To remove fluid filled wheels - use the stabilizers to hold the weight of the machine, till wheels are just resting on the ground, unbolt them & roll them out of the way. No need to lift them. 2 if not 3 men should handle them. If weight is too much of a worry, empty the fluid from the tyres first. Check the torque with a gear in each hand & twist. Ideally this is done without the bullgears in place, you will know if it is too tight. (when doing this, you need to hit the shafts with a heavy rubber/copper mallet to ensure the bearings are properly seated) 3) Endfloat - Yes measured with a dial gauge. On a tapered roller bearing set up like that you want zero end float & about .005" - .010" of preload. Technically, by measuring the end float & subtracting a measured amount of shims you don't really need to measure rolling torque, the measurement just gives you a little insurance that it's correct. Any end float that is present, allows too much shaft movement & thus it is harder for the seals to control the oil. 4) Rebuild advice - if the ring & pinion are going to be replaced - remove the transaxle from the machine. I've never seen the method of leaving the wheels on to remove a transaxle, the thought worries me as I am thinking of the amount of lift required to get the clearance for the removal. In the field, I remove the wheels, undo all that is required, lower the machine to the ground, undo a couple of remaining mounting bolts & drop the transaxle on to supporting timbers, & raise the machine clear to max height. If no lifting equipment is available to the drag the transaxle from under the machine, use the hoe to push the machine clear of the transaxle. You can then use the hoe to lift the transaxle onto a vehicle for transportation to a workshop. cheers for now
alrman: Thanks for your response. Well I got the side gears in per your suggestion of no O’ ring. Play between ring and pinion is way high.. .040 to .050. Have yet to torque carrier plate to specifications, but tightened real good just to see if in ball part. Will have to move some shims to reduce play. Might have to purchase. Found them $18.00 for .010 crazy price. Question: Is say .010 LEFT TO RIGHT shim change equal to the same amount of reduction ring and pinion play? Might save me some time / energy. Raised back wheels off and jiggled back and forth and side carrier popped in. The large ring and pinion gap is probable reason for ring failure. Whoever worked on it last did not set things up right. Richard
.040" - .050" is quite alot of movement. Whether it was set up wrong or if something is wearing to give you so much play is the question. What do the carrier bearings look like? Races/cups look cloudy? Any patterns in them? There are thrust washers between the side gears & the diff planetary gears, I'm not sure if you can jiggle things enough to actually see them? They can break with such large clearances... Was there any metal in the bottom of the housing when you drained the oil? RE the shims - if all bearings & thrusts are found to be in good order, you only need to remove shims & hopefully you have all the sizes already present. Removing .010" will not necessarily move the crownwheel backlash the same. What you need to do first, is get the preload correct, by pulling shims from the diff lock side. Then shuffling your fitted shims from side to side to get the correct crownwheel & pinion backlash. **IMPORTANT to check the backlash in at least 4 different locations - looking for an average of about .010" As mentioned earlier, there could be movement between the crossshaft & carrier - this will also have an effect on the life of the ring & pinion, as clearance will change under load. I'm curious as to how bad the ring & pinion have "failed"? It sounds like your not going to go that far in your repairs.
alrman: Thanks for you input. The rolling torqued seemed a little low. Note that I did not have torque wrench and special tool to put on the splines per manual to check preload. Just did by feel. Probably not very accurate. I took an inch - pound torque wrench and set it to 90 inch pounds (8 ft-lbs = 96 in-lbs) and clicked in vice several times to get a feel for it. Tires are on, so it seems that weight might affect rolling torque?? The side bearing and races look great. Slightly cloudy, no major marks. Bull gears, side gears look real good. Machine meter shows 3000 hours. So I removed one shim from right (removing shim brings carrier plate in and increases preload?) and moved one shim from left to right. Backlash now is around .008in. Preload might be in question, but it does not seem excessively tight and turns by hand pretty easy. The ring gear has two teeth missing. So, I am putting back together and selling. I just wanted to fixed the brakes and this what I got into! I simply do not have to energy for this type of work anymore. (Leukemia). Too bad, really good machine that digs and runs great. Question: How on earth does a person hold the carrier assemble UP while installing the side plates so as not destroy the seal during side plate install? The heavy weight of the assembly drops down on the seals for potential damage. I put electrical tape of the splines. You comment have been very helpful and appreciated.
To do the final fit, with seals, leave the LHS all assembled (without seals), fit a timber wedge under the crownwheel & another, if you have room, under the RH side gear. Obviously, the bull gear is in the way, so try to rig something to hold things in place while you remove the RHS carrier plate. Fit up the RHS, Then do the same for the LHS, trying to wedge the crownwheel against the pinion for some added support. TIP - pack the inside of the seals with grease, as this will help stop the spring from dislodging, in case there is a little trouble during install. Are those two teeth that are broken, side by side? I wouldn't use the tractor too much when you get her back together.....
Thanks for tips. The two teeth missing are about 180 degree apart. I might have to order couple more seals to get back together. Right side seal spring came out. Don't plan on using it at all. Just enough to get it down our semi - steep driveway and onto trailer of potential buyer. Have a guy said he was interested. He works on heavy equip all the time. So he is going to get a good deal.
Hi ALRman, I'm going through this process now and have some questions. My left side gear was eaten, see HeavyEquipmentForums I have new after market left side gear and right side bearing plate. I have the shop manual and I'm trying to verify if the side gear shim stacks that was in it are correct or need to be modified... but I'm running in to an issue. According to the book your suppose to set EACH side, side gear to spider gear back lash at "0.05 to 0.015" by pressing the side gear in to the spider gears ( in a verticle stack once removed from the case). I did not remove the right side gear and ring/pinion from the case so I'm trying to do this in the machine/case by holding the spider gears by hand while pushing the left side gear against them and measuring the backlash with a dial indicator. The problem I'm running in to is the spider gears move in and out (left and right) affecting the backlash. As an alternative I tried holding the right side, side gear, pushing the two side gears together in to the ring/pinion and measuring the back lash of both left and right side gears as a single unit but this is giving me an over all backlash for both sides...so I'm thinking doing it this way won't work? My questions are: 1) Is the side gear to spider backlash important to set prior to setting the ring & pinion backlash and the bearing preload or can I skip it run the original washers and just do the last two, setting the ring and pinion backlash and bearing preload since most of my ware surfaces looked good (except for the destruction)? 2) if the side gear/ spider gear backlash needs to be set first as the instructions say, A) Does the sinthered washer (#11) space the side gear off the spider gears? B) if it does space it off the spider gears, should I push the left side gear and the spider gears in (to the right) as far as I can and then take the backlash reading, since the washer is setting the spacing and nothing else? C) If the #11 washer does not set the side gear to spider spacing, how should I measure this backlash give my set up? Thanks for your help.
To be honest, I'm a little confused with your description. The spider/side gear backlash is seperate to crownwheel & pinion, & yes usually done on the bench before fitting to the transmission. If you are trying to do it with the crownwheel shaft fitted, you will need a handful of different sized washers. Measure the clearance as best you can with the already fitted side gear, then try fitting different washers, each time thinner, with the gear you want to fit - until the backlash starts to reduce - then go back to the next sized thicker washer. It's a horrible way to do it, but without doing it as described in the manual, you haven't really got any other choice. With the bull gears fitted you can't get a proper bearing preload.... If it were mine, the transaxle would be on a bench. It's the only way you will really know everything is right. As to what has caused your failure, I've never seen a carrier plate look like that. I can only assume it was "repaired" at some time & never set up correctly.
Thank you Didn't think about needing the right side bull gear out of the way to spin the right side gear and set the bearing preload. ....guess I'll be pulling it. When I set the side gear pinion backlash for the left side gear just put the pinion left side up on the bench, instead of right side up like the manual shows? And on the side gears, the instructions call for "sintered Iron thrust washer must be used on each side". Based on CNH part numbers I believe the sintered iron thrust washer is part number A29388 (#7) since there is only one of those and part #6 are the "steel shims" since there are six different part numbers (A39007 through A39012) all with different thicknesses....is this correct? If this is correct...why does the parts schematic show only a #6 going on the right side gear? Do I need to run a #7 on both sides like the instructions say, or run a #7 on the left plus what ever #6 it needs and only a #6 on the right side, like the schematic shows? Thanks
Your 580C manual is different from mine, here's a pic. #11 in my manual with no doubles. Pretty sure the OEM thrust washers I used were bronze.
Been a while since mine done so don't really remember preload procedure, did it by the manual, but transaxle was removed from machine, fairly easy to remove and makes whole rebuild procedure sooo much easier.
I have a 1975 580B CK, manual 4 speed gear box with power shuttle, and differential lock. I'm using the Case shop manual for it. And the parts scmatic I posted is right off MyCNH store.com DIFFERENTIAL, W/LOCK | CASE Construction | MyCNH US Store Find schematics, manuals, specifications and diagrams for DIFFERENTIAL, W/LOCK. Find genuine OEM parts for your needs. www.mycnhstore.com It is interesting your part numbers are the same as my #6's, with the various thicknesses. Do your instructions call for a "sintered Iron Thrust Washer"? Which I believe is #7. For those who have done this, how many washers did it take on each side to get the side gear to spider gear backlash correct? Thanks
The heading on this thread says 580C, B is a slightly different animal, maybe start your own thread for better results and less confusion. Like I said pretty sure the single thrust washers were bronze on my machine, 580C.
Each machine needs to have it's own "set up" - there is no specific size to install. That is why they come in different sizes - to suit the tansaxle you are repairing. So, you need to try different sizes, taking backlash measurements for each shim & then fit the one that best meets meets specification. BTW If only ever seen those spacers in steel & not bronze.
Brown, bronze looking coating on new washers, but is magnetic. Plain old steel.