Finally got the old C where I could dig, and it just doesn't have enough a** on the backhoe. I'm trying to dig pine stumps, and this just won't do it. I've read the service manual on checks, and of course I don't have a flow meter, gauges or hand pump. Full of oil, new hyd filter. I'd like to have some insight as to how to proceed from some of the old timers if they will. I'm about convinced that it's the pump (machine is a 79), but would like to be able to verify before I spring for a new one. Hate to spend the money and it's still no good.
TheOldMan, I am sure the MelBen or Alrman will weigh in when they get the chance. Just a FYI I put togther a hydraulic pressure test gauge set for about $100 with hydraulic gauges I got from ebay and test quick connects and lines from hydracheck.com. They sell Stauff fittings and lines, a well known company for these fittings. On my 580b the manual states 2200 psi +/- 75 psi at full throttle with the main bypass open. This is with the hydraulic oil warmed. I would not replace pump or other parts without at least knowing this setting. My unit was a rental at one time (It still has the company stickers) and I think they turned the pressure down to save hoses, etc... I don't know if the 580c is the same open circuit system like the B, melben and alrman will know. If it is and yours cannot be set to obtain this pressure, then I would consider the pump. Outside of this setting I know there are secondary checks in the hoe valve bank that should be checked if the main setting is up to specs. If you want I can post the part numbers I ordered to get the lines and fittings I used. HTH Dave
dwloop - I really appreciate the comeback. I have the service manual, and it tells me how to check and set the Main relief valve, I'm gonna start there, I'll have to run to town tomorrow and get a couple of fittings. I just discovered that mine has a Danfoss pump. Parts manual says Cessna, TRW or Warner Motive, so guess someone has changed the pump. Don't know if this is even a compatible pump,but someone on here will know.
No problem.. I agree, Danfoss doesn't sound right, but I haven't seen as many as some here. One more thought on digging stumps, many times it feels like you just don't have enough!! I have dug many stumps (50+) that were already cut on my property with my old B and with a newer rental 580SM. Even the newer Super M never felt like it had enough when dealing with that. I have to actually say that my older B does really well considering the age. I rented a smaller Kubota L48 several times a few years ago to do other work and got no where fast on the stumps. :Banghead The stumps I deal with are mostly oak, hickory and elm, and they are buggers to get out. Digging stumps is tough on any machine unless it is a larger excavator. I have found that it takes a lot larger hole to get them loose than I would have thought several years ago when I started. I don't have any pines up here, so can't really relate to those. I know a good oak that is more than two feet across at the butt will take me a while and it is tough going, throw in a couple rocks the size of a pickup hood and you want to give up!! I take it as easy as I can to keep from tearing the ole girl up, patience and just keep going wider and deeper until I can get the root ball loose. If it is larger I will use the loader to flip it up out of the way, dig the hole deeper, then flip them upside down into the hole. Back fill and level it off... Dave
The thing about pines, is they have many tap roots. Each horizontal root going out from the stump may have 2 or 3 huge taproots going down, and the main stump will have 1 - 3 that may be 20' long. You have to break all of this away before you can loosen the stump, then you have to get enought dirt away from the root ball to be able to lift the stump out of the hole. It takes a lot of hydraulic power to break the roots close to the stump. I dug the smaller ones with a Kubota that belongs to my neighbor, but stopped because I was going to break it. It had much more power on the hoe than this C.
As a long time owner of a 580 C I may have some ideas. The backhoe on a 580C is an attachment to the machine as many were also made as forklifts, trenchers, cable plows or LL for landscape loader. Point being the backhoe does not have a seperate relief valve and operates on the main relief near the loader controll valve. Cheking the main relief would be your first plan of attack. BE VERY CAUTIOUS! don't set the relief higher than specifications! Will give you all types of power to dig at a cost, The lift cylinders on the 580C work well in many situations but if you boost the pressure past specs, you will bend the rods at a considerable cost to repair (I had to learn this the hard way myself ) As for the Saur Danfos pump that is different. I don't see a problem as long as its not a load sensing pump but there were many different ones made. But the plumbing would have had to be radically changed to accomidate a load sensing pump so I doubt it. Guess all I realy wanted to say was I wouldn't run the pressures up past spec 2300 +- 50 psi. I have seen the main relief needle wear a grove in it that would acuse this problem as well, easily replaced (but if you dont set it to the correct pressure folowing instalation see previous statement) Hope this helps Dave
TheOldMan, if you have a manual you should adjust the main relief pretty easily - I'm sure you will, but, let us know what happens.
I just rigged up a 5000psi gauge and connected to the 1/4" plug on the loader valve. Reads approx 2050# @ 1500 rpm. Adjusted the screw in as far as I could and still get the acorn nut back on, pressure didn't change. I'm sure the oil wasn't as hot as it should be, I held the loader back agains the stops for 15 second intervals with 15 second rests in between about 10 times, but no pressure changes wer noticed. About 1500 is all the engine will turn with the loader control all the way back. I would think that if the power beyond fitting was leaking it wouldn't affect this setting - or would it? Don't have any idea where to get my hands on a flow meter. Is a new pump next?
TheOldMan, what was the engine RPM at no load?? Was it the rated 2250 and then dropped to 1500 RPM when holding the loader curl back?? Dave
yeah, that's about right. It turns very easily over 2200 with no load. What really puzzles me here, is I picked up an absolutely full bucket of sand w/loader just fine.
A hydraulic stall at 1500rpm without full hyd. pressure - only 2050psi............ the fact the pressure wont rise with valve adjustment indicates a bad pump. BUT, the engine shoudn't drop that much. How much smoke is coming out while under load? Does it have clean fuel filters / good supply of fuel / clean air filter? If the hydraulic could make it to 2300psi - the engine would near stop...... That extra 200 psi will make a big difference in digging power - will probably sort out a few more old hoses too.
Alrman, if one of these 188 diesels were in really good shape with a good hydraulic pump, what RPM should they pull down to @full thottle, @2200 PSI on the main relief?? Curious about my 580B as well... Thanks, Dave
You know, I never really paid that nuch attention to rpms. It's pulling hard with the loader held tight against the stops in both elevation and roll back. Doesn't seem to be smoking in excess to me. I've changed all the filters except fuel, hadn't done that yet, because i hate the air bleeding to get it running again. Runs so nice now, I hate to fool with it. By the way, this is a C, so the engine is a 207. Don't think that makes any diffeence. I'm waiting for airman to come back with some more advice. Pretty sure the pump is the culprit, but I want to see what he has to say. If I could find any numbers on the Danfoss pump, I'd see what it is supposed to be. Don't find any.
Oldman are you running the Case Hy Tran Ultra hydraulic oil in the machine? also will the hoe lift the rear end of the machine easily?
Well, even service manual does not give stall specs. But an educated guess would say it should only drop about 200rpm. So, if no load full rpm is 2300 should only drop to about 2100rpm.
Like I said above - I think you have 2 problems to deal with, pressure will not raise with relief adjustment, could be the pump or could possibly be the valve itself. My bet would be the pump - something that only a flowmeter can really test 100%. I have never seen a Danfoss pump a Case hoe of that vintage, only Cessna. Doesn't mean there weren't any made as US & AU are often different in build - but I'm guessing someone has fitted an after market pump to it. Any chance of a pic? The other problem is engine power, I would look at this before anything else. You need to check those filters. They are easy to change on a C. The fuel gravity feeds from tank to filters - so loosen the bleeder on top filter till all air is gone. Then start 'er up! The Roosamaster injector pumps are self priming - if you run them out of fuel, put some fuel in it, fill filters & may need to loosen a couple of injector lines at the injectors while cranking. N.B. - while the filters are off, there should be a good flow of fuel happening, if not blow some compressed air up the feed pipe to clear blockage.
Hydraulic stall on the 580C is 2100 rpm/ converter is 1890 rpm and combined stall engine must continue to run.
Now I'm really confused. I had never considered a lack of fuel. This thing smokes pretty well under load, so thought there was plenty of fuel there. I'll change the filters tomorrow, and eliminate that problem. The loader will lift a full bucket of sand rapidly. Hydraulic stall - You mean if I'm operating the engine at full throttle and pull back on the bucket roll back that it should continue to run at 2100 rpm? I don't think the tach works well enought to determine that, but I'll check again tomorrow. No, I'm not running Hytran in the hydraulic system. But I am using a product that says it's equivalent to HyTran. Airman, I'll posr pix of the pump tomorrow, but no plumbing has been modified as compared to the parts manual. The only difference I see is this pump "Danfoss" cast into the cover. I agree, someone probably installed an aftermarket pump. I'd like to test with a flowmeter, but don't know where to start looking for one. Anybody got the crossover numbers from Case fuel filters to Napa?
I don't know about Napa, but the WIX numbers are 33381 for the primary, 33380 for the secondary... Dave
NAPA numbers are: 3380 for the top 3381 for the bottom
Actually, I found the hydraulic stall test in my B service manual tonight, page 4011-56, right at the end of the hydraulic test section. For power shuttle models of the B the stall test at 125'F oil temp should be 1900 RPM at full throttle, that is from 2250 RPM no load. Leads me to ask TheOldMan, I know you held the curl at stop several times but did you feel the pump line to see if the oil was warm? I bet cold oil viscosity would throw this off quite a bit... Just an idea. BTW, I am not trying to distract from your thread, but recently after some engine work I was warming mine up like this to check the radiator and leaks. When stalling the hydraulics in the cold garage it would pull down to 1500RPM or so. I am hoping that was because it was about 30'F at that time!! After warming the engine and checking that, the hydraulic oil was still not very warm. Dave
This again is for a 580B - sorry TheOldMan I also looked harder & found specs different to yours dwloop..... These pics are of 2 x pages States 1900rpm for dry clutch & 2100rpm for convertor
I'm gonna change fuel filters this AM and pull the power beyond fitting to see if the o rings are good. I'm really apprehensive about the shuttle stall test, I'll have to put the machine up against a tree to do it, don't trust those brakes! I'll pay a little more attention to temp of return oil line, I'm in Florida, and it's shirt sleeve weather, so the oil shouldn't have been that cold. Looking at the parts manual, there's a secondary relief valve in the loader control. I'm assuming that the primary relief is for overall hydro pressure, and secondary is for loader pressure. Is that correct?
Something else just occured to me regarding the fuel thing. The two arms on the side of the injection pump that are operated via the throttle arm sping (p/n G49621-item 27 pg 57 of parts manual) are tied together with a piece of wire. The spring is there, but it was misplaced. I corrected the placement, but I didn"t take the wire off. What is the function of this spring? I'll remove the wire today and see if there's any diffeence.
OK - just changed the fuel filters and took the wire off the injector pump arm. Didn't make a bit of difference. However, discovered the foot throttle must have enough wear in it that it doesn't two block the pump, but the hand throttle does. The tach bounces a little, but I'd say I'm well in range of 2250 - 2350 no load, and it drops 200 - 250 during the hydro stall test. Pressure still never goes over 2050. Pulled the power beyond fitting, and sure enough there was no oring. Installed one out of a handy dandy kit I got at Harbor Freight - no change. Might be the wrong o ring. I'll order the right one when I get this sorted out. I think I'm going to have to make a decision between pulling the loader vavle and disassembling the primary relief or changing the pump. Right now, I'm leaning towards the pump. Sorry airman, we put the cover back on the front of the tractror to add some home made counter balance. I'm going to have to remove it to paint and/or change the pump, I'll post pix then, but as far as I can tell, the outside looks just like the Cessna in the p/m. I didn't have any luck removing the pump to put a fan belt on, but guess I'll have to try again.
I don't mean to hog this thread, but I keep comming up with unknowns. I went back to the parts manual, and the power beyond adapter shows two different o ring seal arrangemens. Pg 311. One is oring small, used on fittings w/o back up ring, and the other oring small used on fittings with b/u ring. How do I tell which one I need? When I removed the power beyond fitting, there was no oring there at all.
TheOldMan, its your thread!! I guess I was the one elbowing in.... I'll not do it again though... Good to see your RPM under stall is where it is. Dave
Hey Dave - I hope you don't think I was berating you from joining in. That certainly was not my intention. I need all the help I can get, and You always have something relevant to add. I never considered you elbowing in. I was just afraid I was loading so many questions on this thread that the guys would get disgusted with me.
TheOldMan, I didn't think that at all. What I meant was I think I was confusing the topic earlier by stating settings out of the service manual for a different model. Let us know what you find with that pump. If you do a Google search for "Case 580C Sauer Danfoss pump", you will find several aftermarket dealers selling Danfoss replacements. That may be how your current pump got there. I had read somewhere that some of the replacement pumps wear better due having steel bodies instead of aluminum, I am curious if that is true. I don't believe you can ask too many questions... Some forums I belong to get frustrated at those that don't use the search function first and ask a repetitive subject, I don't see that happen here that often. Dave
TheOldMan, the oring gone at the power beyond will make a big difference to your BH digging power. Have you tried to dig with it since you replaced it? It would be a good idea to return the main relief screw to where it was, just in case the low pressure problem is in the valve & it does correct itself & cause pump to fail. The cycle time for the loader lift (fully loaded) is 4.5 seconds to maximux lift - how is it for speed? - if the BH power has improoved (power beyond fixed) & cycle time is reasonable - I would not worry about the relief pressure, if being used around the 'farm'. If the pump is sad, the problem will show itself, as you use the machine - let it develop.... that's what I would do if it were mine.
If your pump is that bad it would not raise off the floor with hot oil with material in the bucket at idle. It would raise at idle with cold oil probably but as the temp of the oil increased the system will get increasingky more sluggish. As alrman said, a flo test is in order. alrman, did you get my pm on the 1155 issue? I was not sure it sent properly but it shows up in my sents. mel
I was able to borrow a flow meter from the hydraulic shop that rblt my cylinders. I guess the good news is, that the pump is good. Actually pumps a little more volume than the book calls for. With the load valve open, hot oil, 2000 rpm flow meter reads 25gpm. @2000 rpm with the load valve closed to get 2000 psi, flo measures 23 gpm. Next is main relief. With the control valve hose re-attached to inlet tee, bucket rollback all the way over, full throttle, flo valve indicates about 28gpm. As you load with the meter valve, one time it dumped at 1200psi, 2 or 3 times it didn't dump at all, then dumped at 1800psi. Didn't get a chance to read flow meter here. Backed the relief adjustment way back out, and ran again. Full throttle, 28gpm slowly loaded w/valve, started to drop a little quicker @ 25gpm. However, even when loading to get 2300 rpm where the valve is supposed to dump, it never went to 0, only down to about 7gpm, but this wasn't a dump, rather a continual even drop as I closed the valve. Didn't want to go any futher, didn't want to block the pump completely. This not what the test procedure outlines, maybe I'd better pull this valve apart and see if there's something amiss. What do you think? I haven't run any of the loader or backhoe tests yet. Do you think they would be valid with this valve acting up?
"TheOldMan" just a quick note to say that I subscribed to this thread from the very beginning, and was never disappointed by a single reply ... the fact that you have done your homework relentlessly is apparent, and stands as a reminder to all, how to get to "Know Your Hoe" ... and what a wealth of information - this thread will be referenced many times - Thanks.
I really appreciate that tloft. Of I have contributed one small thing that will help someone else, itis small payment for the vast amount of knowledge and help I have received from the guys that frequent the forum and are so free with thier advice. I canno thank them enough
Assuming you have the Parker loader control valve - the needle/poppet & seat (#6 & #11) are replacable. Most times you could pull them apart & see nothing wrong with the valve except a wear groove where these make contact. Often could not get correct pressure unless they were replaced.
Thanks for the tip airman. Gonna try to complete the tests tomorrow that require the flow meter, have to take it back Monday. I wonder if a hand pump off a body shop type power tool would work to test the secondary relief valves?
I completed the flow tests yesterday, and could not get the bh bucket ckt pressure up to 1000psi even with the flow completely blocked. Pulled one line off the cylinder to check piston bypass, and had to plug the line before I could check it, the spool was bypassing so bad. Pressure washed everything in the valve area, but could not get it clean enough to satisfy me, so we pulled the plate and both valve groups. Learned a great lesson - READ THE SVC MANUAL FIRST. Anyway eveything is setting on the floor so will go from there. I'm open to all suggestions on refurbishing the spools and check/reliefs. I did buy a hand pump off ebay I think will work to set the reliefs.
TheOldMan, were you ever able to get your main relief pressure up to spec? Dave
No - I think there's something wrong internally. When I get the bh valve bank back in, the loader valve is next.