Hello, I've read every thread I could find on timing the fuel injector on a 580C. But after reading I think I'm more confused because there are some machines at 8 degrees and others at 0 degrees timing on the flywheel. Here is my confusion: The valve cover gasket sticker says to time it at 0 degrees along with the service manual. I checked it and the timing is at 8 degrees so is it correct or wrong? It starts right up and seems to run OK. It does smoke a little and the muffler seems to always be somewhat wet. I can't tell if it's oil or something else. The coolant looks fine. Is my pump the original or a replacement? It's a Stanadyne DBO-3205 Please see attached pictures. On another note, I adjusted my valves and they were all considerably off around .025 to .037 instead of .012 for intake and .014 for exhaust. Did the motor get damaged from being so out of specs? I haven't used it much because I have rebuilding most of the machine since I have owned it. Wish I could have afforded a better machine... Thanks, Steve
Its an updated replacement pump.. some older pumps set at 0.. some set at 8*.. follow the valve cover sticker.. & reset the valves..
No harm was done due loose valves. Too tight ,then yes that is not good. Did you check the torque on the bolts that hold the rocker arm shafts to the head ?
Thepumpguysc: I'm trying to get a better understanding on how this stuff works. If I have an updated pump why would I set to the older pump setting of 0? Did you base my setting on my pump model? This is the confusion I had reading older posts. If I have a bunch of these machines in front of me with different pumps how do you figure it out? Tinkerer: No I didn't check the torque. Do I loosen them first? What is the torque value? Thanks, Steve
Everything you need to know about your machine can be downloaded here ----> http://www.minnpar.com/manuals5.asp...S PARTS MANUALS&SSSFName=CASE 580E SE SUPER E
Thanks for the link. Unless I missed it there was no discussion on why some pumps are at 0 degrees and others at 8. Any guesses as how it is determined? Steve
The pumps were updated by changing the advance mechanism pistons, springs and end plugs for easier starting & stamped on the name plate of the pump.
Not sure how to proceed on resetting the pump. Is there 8 degrees of rotation available on the pump or do I have to do something else to put it back on zero? Thanks, Steve
LEAVE IT AT 8*.. if you start moving gears it'll never start.. especially if you had taken it off at 8 & she ran good.. if you move it to 0, your retarding the timing 8*'s & she'll never start & if she does, it'll white smoke BAD..
Pumpguy I'll leave it at 8 degrees. But on your first post you told me to follow the sticker which says set it to 0 degrees. Steve
Being a close to 4 decade old machine, unless you know what all was done to it all of those years, it's hard to tell how many times that IP could have been messed with or swapped out. If it was running fine and set at 8, then just put it back that way and record it somewhere for the next poor guy that has to try and figure it out. Also, once you get it up to running temp, it's best to recheck the valve clearances again and adjust if necessary.
If I could hijack this thread, I have a 480c backhoe(late 70's I think). The injection pump has been rebuilt at some time before, it's a different color and the previous owner told me he had it worked on. This thing starts right up and runs great. I hesitate to say anything. But what I am concerned about is all the blue smoke from the exhaust pipe. It doesn't use any oil, and I expect some smoke when the engine is cold. The smoke does improve after it really warms up good, but it still has a small steady stream of blue smoke coming out of the pipe. When you dead head a cylinder or really get the hoe hung up and load the engine down, it really smokes then, even if it is warmed up. Is there a slight tweak to the pump that could be done to lessen the smoke? Or possibly the injectors are not spraying like they should? What is the most common cause of this? The engine runs smooth with no loping or miss. I need to leave it alone I guess but I am curious.
Valve guides?? they'll leak oil thru them & it gets in the combustion chamber & will blue smoke.. it doesn't affect the performance but its a nuisance.. Does it burn your eyes??
Second it burning oil from somewhere, if it's really blue smoke you are seeing. It doesn't take much, so it could be a really slow leak and not noticeable for awhile on the dipstick. Unburnt diesel will usually get you smoke that is White (when cold) then Gray or Black smoke when hot.
I suggest that you should remove the sticker that is on the valve cover. Or modify the 0 to an 8.
Thanks for the replies. It can cause my throat to get a little raw if the wind is blowing the right direction. I guess I am going to live with it.
franklin ; That is not good if you want to live a long life. Remove the oil fill cap while the engine is warm and running. Look for blow-by gases coming out. Coolant level staying full ?
Coolant level is good, I just checked the oil level again today, it's on the full mark still. It has a breather pipe that comes out of the valve cover and drops over the side of the engine, I have never noticed smoke coming out of it but I will need to look a little closer at it. I guess a diesel has some vacuum to it, otherwise it would not pull air into the engine. But it should not have near the vacuum a gasoline engine would have with the throttle blades closed. That's when they really suck oil past the guides. I have been running it alot lately, doing a French drain project around my house.
bump that timing up 2-3 degrees and see what goes on in the military we always scribed a mark on timing cover and pump and moved the pump 1/16 to one way or there to make them better
scribe a line on the pump mounting flange & one on the block.. Rotate the pump towards the outside of the tractor about a dimes width & tighten back up.. & see what that does.. DO NOT run the tractor w/ the pump loose.!!
So I'm getting a fair amount of white smoke. It happens on startup and anytime I give it throttle. The smoke gets darker under load when I was checking the power steering pressures at full RPM. It did this when I bought it, but seems worse now. I've adjust the valves(very loose) and double checked them. I also just rebuilt the cooling system. New water pump, thermostat, and fixed a leak on the radiator. I did NOT remove or adjust the IP, just checked the timing since I was doing the valves. I also noticed some white smoke out of the breather tube and oil fill tube when I checked the oil. The coolant and oil appear OK. Also, it always starts right up on the first crank even after dumping the fuel out of the IP and not bleeding it. Any suggestions on what to check next? Steve
Anyone have some suggestions? Thanks!
Dirtyhoe ; I never read in your thread as to whether you had the injection pump removed / off or not. When did the white exhaust start showing. Was it like that when you got the machine ?
Tinkerer, For diagnostic purposes I wanted to clarify I did not tamper with the pump since I have owned it. I just pulled off the window plate to inspect the timing and I cleaned the small filter on the inlet of the pump. A little white smoke was present when I purchased it. It is now worse. Unfortunately, the overall machine was in poor condition so I have not been able to put it to use excavating. I've spent the past year just making repairs/ maintenance so it doesn't break down on my property. Steve
Steve ; I missed it but you did say in your first post that you didn't remove the pump . It is time to pull the injectors and have them pop tested. Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?
I moved the pump a little bit today. I could see the remnants of old marks on the pump and the casting, it was actually not lined up, with the pump favoring toward the engine. I moved it just a tiny bit away from the engine. Those nuts that hold the pump tight are ridiculous. How in the world are you supposed to get the one in the back loose? They are so close to the body you can't get anything but a open end wrench on them. Luckily I was able to put some large channel locks on the pump and it moved easier than a thought with just the other two bolts loose. Started right up as usual, seemed smoother with a little less smoke, and a little less stink. Seems to react to the throttle and the governor a little better also when I dead head a cylinder. Overall it's improved, but there is still a small stream of blue coming out. I think you guys are right, I have a little mechanical issue somewhere in the engine. It must hold a lot of oil or it takes very little to create the smoke, because it still doesn't seem to use any. Thanks for the advice.
bump it a little more bet after running it with load that blue will go away..sounds like slow timing..
Yes, I have all of the manuals. I will check for a misfire too(loosen each injector one at a time) just in case I've missed something. I don't have a way to check the compression. What is the cheapest way to put this tool together? Steve
@ franklin2 - On that back nut, which I also found to be a real pain with the typical tools one has on hand, I went digging thru the tool box and found and old Williams 6725B wrench. It's 12 point and only has a slight offset on the ends, and is around 6" overall. When I used this I could still only get 1 point of movement at a time on the nut before hitting the block, but it worked great by comparison and just made the whole ordeal a treat compared to the fun I went thru when taking it off. If I hadn't found this thing in the the tool box, I was just going to take any 12 point 9/16" with a slight offset, as a straight one will just hit the flange on the front of the block, and hack the other end off it making it around 6" or so, as you'd end up with pretty much the same thing, and it really cut down on the swearing also.
Just get a wrench & some heat & bend it into a wide "U".. 12pt box end.. Once you get the timing where YOU like it.. double check it w/ the flywheel degrees & pump lines in the window.. THAT WAY, you'll know FOR SURE what the timing is... Just to clarify, that 0* & 8* do not take into consideration, gear train wear..
For sure pumpguysc ! I would be curious to see timing marks lined up, and then how far he could rotate the crankshaft back and forth before they moved.
Tinkerer, I opened up the fuel line connection on each injector one at a time. #1 cylinder(closest to the fan) barely made the engine misfire. The remaining 3 made a noticeable change in the way the engine responded to no fuel. So I"m guessing my problem is with #1? Does this mean it's the injector or something worse like piston rings? How do I rig up a compression test gauge without spending a lot of money? Thanks, Steve
You can buy a whole set of injectors online cheaper than getting the tools to do a compr. test.. about 30.-40.00 apiece.. aftermarket injectors. IF your going to replace 1.. replace ALL of them.. they ALL have the same amount of time on them & the SAME fuel run thru them.. You HAVE TO use a diesel compression gauge.. a GASOLINE gauge wont work.. the diesel compression is over 300psi & a gas gauge only goes up to 200 and theres a STRONG possibility that it will explode. IF you have an old injector laying around, you can take the guts out of it, grind the tip off & use that for a compr. tester.. you'll have to braze/weld a fitting on it to adapt to the gauge tho.. OR buy the kit from Harbor Freight.. They sell 2 different kits.. OR try to rent one from the local parts store.. OR just swap #1 injector w/ #4 & see if the fault follows the injector.. IF IT DOES, just get a new set..
With you having smoke and that #1 injector not changing how the engine runs much, it sounds a bit like an issue with that cylinder not having enough compression, rings, valves, the sleeve, so then the fuel from it is just getting burnt up in the exhaust. It could also be the injector has failed and is dumping the fuel in there at the wrong time too. Do a swap of the #1 injector with any of the others like TPG suggested and crack all of the lines again, see if the issue moves with the injector. That engine's compression should be around 400psi while cranking and 480psi when running, thou after who knows how many years or decades on those sleeves and rings it could be anything, so if you get a gauge make sure it can handle at the very least 500psi max, preferably you'd want one that is rated to 1000psi to be safe.
The HF gauge goes up to 1000psi. I cant remember a time I've gotten mine over 400.. lol 350-340-350-92.. is USUALLY how it goes.. All you can do is swap the injectors & hope for the best.. we're rootin for ya..
I'll get to it this weekend and let you know what I find out. TPG, do you have a source for good quality $30-40 injectors? I don't want to buy junk like my aftermarket water pump I had to throw away. Some of the recommend online stores that were mentioned the other day on my other post about aftermarket parts want over $100 each. Thanks for all the advise!
I only use OEM but it sounded like you were on a budget.. just google> 580c pencil injectors..
Here are the results from the compression test: Cylinder #1(next to fan) 335PSI...With oil added(1 tablespoon) per service manual 415PSI Cylinder #2 370PSI with oil 460PSI Cylinder #3 370PSI with oil 465PSI Cylinder #4 360PSI with oil 450PSI ****Service manual says it should be 400PSI with no more than 25PSI difference between cylinders. Observations: Swapping injectors from #2 to #1 made a slight improvement. Battery was fully charged and seemed to spin motor fast. No debris on diesel return line so I think nothing is coming apart in the FP. All injectors had soot on the nozzle. No visual differences between all four. After putting it back together no change in the amount of smoke. Questions: Why does it start so easy? After disconnecting all the fuel pressure and return lines it started right up with no priming. Should I have the injectors tested? Do I need to rebuild the engine? How much power will I loose if I do not make repairs? Will I have a catastrophic failure in the near future if I do nothing? Thanks in advance, Steve
Steve I'm not all that qualified to give sound advice but when a diesel starts like yours it's a sign of good compression and a little vapor out of the breather and oil fill tube isn't unusual. No one from what you've described could make a call that without nothing done may result in catastrophic failure. I replaced all the injectors on the same machine as yours once because I thought it ran a little ruff OME $54 each at the time and all I did was waste a couple 100 bucks because it didn't make a bit of difference that was noticeable.
1 - It starts so easy because you still have enough fuel and compression for it, which are all it really needs. 2 - Having them pop tested isn't a bad idea, but it obviously has a slight compression issue on #1 there. 3 - That's roughly a 30~50psi difference between cylinders, and 30 or so psi under the books spec, and going from the manual that's a bit off the allowed difference you want to see between cylinders, but it's also not a horrible difference that points to it needing immediate attention. It is close to a 4 decade old machine, and depending on what all was done to it over those years, that could be just the start of the engine showing the rings and/or sleeves need to be replaced. Sooner or later that's really only going to get worse and need some attention, but I personally wouldn't put it in the 'needs done right now' category, depending on how much you plan to use the machine. If you plan to run it hours a day, for days on end, for months at a time, you may want to get in there now and do something about it, like an in frame overhaul and really go over or have the head checked out as well, but if it's just getting used here and there, then I wouldn't be overly concerned with those readings for now, but do plan on either an in frame or pulled overhaul some time down the road. 4 - Any power that's lost is already lost, but putting a number on that isn't really easy. If #1 was dead or had very little compression you'd notice it for sure, as the engine would then have to lug all that dead weight around. 5 - Doubtful, but if you're keen, you still pay attention to walking behind any horse that's never kicked you before either. That is to say that a little low compression reading doesn't really tell you much, and it for sure doesn't mean that the #3 rod couldn't just up and snap at some point and come flying thru the block. So just keep your eyes and ears open for any changes in how she sounds or feels, since you know best how it sounds and feels now, as that, aside form doing compression checks and tearing things apart to see what's going on in there, will be your best indicators.
make sure your valves are set right get the #1 piston on the down stroke and tap the valves and make sure some carbon has not been stuck in that bad hole not a hard lick ,,just see what they sound like seating .........
After talking to a Stanadyne service center, my pump numbers on the ID tag verify that it has the advance pistons, etc. So I will set the timing at "0".
Now I'm totally confused... There are a lot of references on this forum and others to check the timing by removing the backlash in the normal engine rotation direction. Most describe this as sitting in the operators seat and turning the flywheel counter-clockwise(normal running rotation). BUT, the picture below from my 580C manual says to do the exact opposite. So what is going on here? Obviously the wrong way will introduce backlash and the correct way won't. I get that it doesn't matter when doing valve adjustments because the lobes on the camshaft taper off and you have lots of room on either side of TDC, but the FP is more sensitive to backlash as I understand. What is the CORRECT procedure? Steve
The description in the pic says to do exactly that, crank it counter-clockwise a shade past the timing mark you're going for, then clockwise (a shade) back to the timing mark. If you have enough backlash in everything that it causes a noticeable issue, you'll be doing more work to it before any of that matters. Just crank it around to the 0 or 8 you're going for, line the mark up on the pump, snug it down and fire it up.
RDC_580C, I know what picture says. Come from the direction opposite of the running direction. People are posting to go in the same direction as the engine spins which is opposite of the manual. I'll agree the difference is small, but in my mind it's a big procedural error. I'm coming to this as a machinist. If you don't understand which way to approach your parts compensating with backlash you will make scrap. There is only one correct way. I'm just learning as I go and want to do it right. Steve
You're not trying to get the tolerance so tight you can press fit something together there. Take the machinist cap off for a bit, save that for when you'll need to make some part for the thing that by then will have some astronomical price tag (and make them cheap so the rest of us 580 guys can get in on it) and just spin it around and time it up. I went all service manual crazy when I rebuilt my engine with the steps and specs, with the timing gear backlash, the pump mounting bracket runout and most irritatingly the torque converter runout, that would be dead on, until you tried to snug the thing down and then it was all out of wack. Those kinds of things will drive you nuts for days, and pretty much none of it makes a lick of difference when all is said and done on a 4 decade old machine. I'm not saying go around with 10 times the tolerance anything calls for, but if it's a bit out of spec, it's not going to grenade on you when you hit the starter button.
Point well taken. What starter button? That is item #83 on my to-do list. When I bought it, it came with a screwdriver for the starter. That should have been my first clue to run and find another machine.
What number is the neutral switch? I redid all of the wiring in mine, and also changed up that bit of the starter circuit from the service manual wiring diagram. Pulling all of that starter solenoid current thru that neutral switch like they did is just asking for it to fail at some point, as mine did since it was bypassed years ago by whoever had it before, and once I tore it apart (not a repairable item) I found it was all melted inside. I installed a new one and have it wired to one coil side of a relay then ground, then the other side is going to the starter button and 12v. The open contacts for the relay go from the 12v to the starter solenoid. Done that way, the neutral switch never sees any high current to eventually cook it to failure as the relay coil pulls very little by comparison, while the relay contacts can handle that. Then if it's not in neutral, the relay coil can't energize and there's no starting, so it still ends up working the exact same, but should last a bit longer.
Not a part number. Just one of many things I need to do to get this machine running decent and safely. I'm working on the whole front axle assembly including the pump and steer cylinders. Half the ball joints are egged out. They were loose, but had cotter keys. Who does that? A have a good friend that gives me full access to his machine shop. My employer doesn't allow after hours hobbies. I pad welded the holes and CNC milled the tapers. Went really fast. His lathe wasn't big enough so I had to cut the ear off the spindle to repair the damaged seal and bearing surface. I'm saving a ton of money, but it's also taking my free time. Time I need to get my house project started. That's an excellent tip on the starting circuit. Thanks! Steve
Rolling the engine "backwards" is only done IF you miss your mark.. If you rotate the engine in the normal direction of rotation, you'll be fine.. BUT, if you miss the marks.. don't just back it up to the marks, you MUST rotate back atleast 45* & then proceed forward.. personally I go 90*..
Thepumpguysc, So the service manual is incorrect? The manual specifically say to remove the backlash coming from the direction opposite of running rotation. You are saying to remove the backlash going in same direction as running rotation. When I have time I will try it both ways and see how much of a difference it makes on my FP timing marks. I'm guessing not much. Like others have said probably a small difference and nothing to worry about. Steve
The key word in that manual is "PAST". They don't mention 45 degrees, I can't imagine why that would be needed but I'm not THE pumguy. IF you turn the engine backwards, go PAST the marks, then come back till they line up. It's not a small difference, the timing within a few degrees is hard to achieve. Remember, the pump turns at cam speed on a four stroke, half crank speed, so the error on the pump is doubled on the crank/piston.
Delmer, But the other key word is " clockwise ". Forget about turning past and backing up because it adds to the confusion. The final rotation direction in which the backlash can be removed is broken down to two choices. CW or CCW. It's the equivalent of turning left or right. You end up in a very different place. Here is another example. Picture two gears meshed. If I drive the right side gear clockwise the left will turn CCW. Now if I drive the left side gear CCW the right side will turn CW. So we can agree the two gears are turning in a similar fashion direction wise? However, in this arrangement opposite sides of the gear teeth are being loaded with the turning force. This is exactly what is going on in the engine. Gears only wear on one side if it turns in one direction only. Turning the opposite way will put you on a different wear surface. I don't know the answer to my question, but I do know if one mechanic sets his final timing direction CW and another mechanic sets his final timing direction CCW they are going to get different results. Steve
I'm not saying the book is wrong.. Just bump the starter to SEE which way the engine/hub turns in normal direction of rotation.. That will determine which way to rotate your engine, clockwise or CC.. But whatever you do, if you miss your timing marks, don't just back up alittle to get them.. turn the engine back 30-45-90* & start forward again..
You are correct in that part of your post, but only if the crankshaft went counterclockwise to the timing mark. I think you are overthinking the whole rotation scenario Steve. The service manual was written by the people that designed your machine. Why would you doubt their directions ? Thepumpguy is also correct with his advice. Both methods will eliminate the gear backlash. Keep in mind there is more than one gear in the assembly and they will all have clearances that contribute to the total backlash.
yeah, never mind my post, I have no idea what the manual is trying to do.
Over the years reading a lot of different manuals working on a lot of different equipment, I have found most manuals are written by engineers and mechanics, but they are transcribed and typed by secretaries, some make more typos and mistakes than others and some are proof-read more than others for mistakes.
LOL Franklin.. ever try to read the instructions for anything from Harbor Freight?? TO FUNNY..
It would seem to me that Case's description would put the slack in the gears in the wrong direction, After 50 plus years I find I have been doing it wrong if they are right unless I misunderstand, the gear slack should all be taken out in the direction of normal rotation as I see it and timing should be set with the gear slack taken out in the counterclockwise rotation from the flywheel end. Also, all my career I have never backed an engine up more than 15-20 degrees to reset backlash in the gear train, if you have that much lash in the timing gears and pump drive gear and idler your gear train is not to long for the world. Am I missing something here??
It appears that there is an error in the manual. Thanks for the clarification. I just bought 4 new injectors. The injector shop said #1 was plugged, and the rest had a bad spray pattern with some chatter. I bought the OEM's to be safe and will use aftermarket parts for non-critical stuff. On a different repair I was able to save over $300. My power steering pump had very low pressure. The service manual says the relief valve is not rebuildable. With nothing to loose I took it apart and the o-ring was damaged along with a groove in the steel ball and seat. I re-machined the o-ring groove(very poor surface finish) and it still leaked. I then re-machined the ball with a radius tool and re-cut the chamfer. I had to make a custom adapter to hook it up to my pressure tester. I was able to tighten the spring to relieve at 2000PSI. Also, it only dropped to 1800PSi overnight. The pump shaft that goes into the engine had deep grooves from the double lip seal. So on that I machined a .04 spacer behind the seal to let it ride on a new spot on the shaft.
Mel, your not missin anything.. its just my personal preference to back the engine up THAT far.. What the he**, your down there anyway, why not make it tight, is what I always say.. DH> nice job on the machining..
The 580C with the 207 engine timed on O degree TDC. There is a dot on the drive shaft coming out of the timing cover that drives the pump and there is one in the slot in the mump itself the dots go together. There are scribe marks inside the pump behind the rectangular cover on the side of the pump. One mark is stationary and the other turns align these two marks and the pump is in time. Be very careful when installing the pump and not roll the one umbrella seals.