I have a 1968 580ck with the 188D. When I'm driving it and go uphill I lose rpms. It drops down to idle. In order to get it moving I have to push in clutch rev it and drop clutch. It has also in the last few days become very hard to start. I know that the engine is getting tired but it always starts up and runs.any help would be great.
This is probably redundant but.. the throttle is a straight mechanical link between the pedal and the inj. pump.. With that being said.. your problem is probably in the tranny/shuttle.. sorry but no help from me.. I'm strictly the inj. pump guy..
sounds like a fuel supply issue, change your filters and blow all the lines out.
I feel that it is a fuel issue as well. I have changed the fuel filters and blown out the supply line to the injector pump. No change at all. I am curious if it could be my injector pump or injectors?
Go to Motorkote.com and look at their stiction remover.
Probably not the injectors, it could be the injection pump. One way to know for sure is to tee into the supply line at the injection pump and run a line to a pressure/vacuum gauge in the cab. If the fuel pressure holds steady while the engine slows, then you have your answer. Is there any black smoke when it's slowing down? Carogator, would you put the stiction remover in the fuel? what's your experience with it?
Absolutely, I personally had extra good results on my 12.7 Detroit, did not have to put two injectors in after using it. I had to run it 600 miles to clear up, but saw others that it did the job in 20-30 minutes. More power and fuel mileage. If the problem is something besides gummed up pump or injectors, it won't fix it. Still will help otherwise.
Thanks carogator and delmer, I will try a couple things and let you know. If this rain here in northern idaho ever goes away that is.
Delmer, it blows a bit of black smoke all the time but I didn't notice it blowing even more when this happens. Is there a way to hook a fuel pressure gauge to the output of the injection pump to find out if I am losing pressure?
I had an old 530 case with the 188 diesel in it. it got some mold growing in the filter on the bottom of the tank and did just like you are saying . started fine but fell flat on it's face when you put a load on it. but then again I had a gm 6.2 that would do the same thing.I beat my head against the wall for a long time swearing up and down it must be starving out for fuel. I did everything under the sun including new filters, lines and pulling the pump and putting new seals and drive coupling into it and it would still not load up. finally I had to put a new pump on the 6.2 to fix the issue. (they both ad the rossa master 2db pump)
No, leave that to the experts. As far as I know, they only measure the output volume of an injection pump. You could certainly get it tested if you take it off and bring it in, but I don't think this typically done as a diagnosis, just to calibrate/check a rebuild. Does it blow noticeably LESS black smoke when it slows down? If it blew more smoke and lost power and speed at the same time, that would be leaking injectors causing the fuel to drip and ignite too soon, or possibly there's a way for the injection pump to advance too much?
You say, "when I'm driving".. What does it do WHILE WORKING?? does it die to idle?? and you have to back-off your load?? Just go push a tree.. or put the bucket to the ground.. If the answer is, "no.. its fine".. then you don't have a fuel system problem.. Just for kicks> when was the last time you drained the tank? All the 580ck's w/188's I've seen have a petcock on the bottom of the tank.. hold a container under it and drain to see whats in there.. The last one I drained, I had to get a coat hanger to bust the clog.. If your really leaning towards the fuel supply> its a gravity feed system.. shut off the fuel, get a 1 gallon container of fuel and connect it directly to the pump inlet and go for a SHORT drive..
Thepumpguysc, yes it does it when working if I don't have the throttle set high enough. I have noticed that when in neutral sitting still, if I give it full throttle, it is not very responsive. It takes quite a bit of time to catch up to the throttle position.
Now it makes sense... I was leaning towards a tranny/shuttle problem seeing you said DRIVING.. Did you pour out the filters to get a look at the trash?? Those injectors will loose spring pressure and start to leak/drip into the cylinders when not running, hence the hard start and black smoke.. when they loose spring pressure, they open-up earlier and change the injection timing of the pump.. black/white smoke/hard start and slow throttle response.. They are pretty inexpensive to replace.. ebay around 20.00 each.. IF you didn't want to spend the money, you could in theory, adjust the PUMP TIMING to compensate...
Pumpguy, sent you a PM, would you please fwd a number where you can be reached to the PM? Mel
Sorry, I haven't had any time to work on the backhoe. Now we got our first snow of the year so it might be a bit before I get around to it.
83* here and I have to cut grass this weekend.. :drinkup
Pump guy, here's another symptom for you. When I say it is hard to start, it starts up but will only idle, and then die. Sometimes it will idle for 3 or 4 minutes and die. It's doesn't matter what I do with the throttle. I just have to keep starting it until it will respond to the throttle and then it is fine until I shut it off. After I shut it off I have to wait for a while before trying to start it or it won't start at all.
There is also diesel in the oil so I would assume that the injectors are leaking down into the cylinders.
I would remove the top cover, 3 screws.. and have a look around.. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts you have a fuel contamination problem.. IF you can get it to idle.. crack the injector lines loose, 1 at a time and listen for any engine sound change.. like pulling a spark plug wire.. IF you get to one that doesn't change, you found the problem cylinder.. IF you find a cylinder, that may be the source of the fuel in the oil.. OR it could be the brass pilot tube infront of the pump.. Also, there is a screen under the inlet.. just remove the line and using a 3/4" wrench, back out the screen nut..
I had changed the fuel filter and cleaned the screen in the inlet of the pump after this issue started. It didn't make a bit if difference. I'll try and crack the injector lines and let you know what I find.
I had two injectors that did not make a difference at all when I cracked them loose. The very first one and the last one I cracked made the engine die, the other two did not make a difference.
A head gasket blown between the two middle cylinders would kill your power like this. If you pull the center injectors, do a compression test, or just blow compressed air into the one and see if it comes out the other hole.
Do as Delmer says>> cuz it's not likely the pump is causing it to miss on 2 cylinders.. the pump has 1 rotating pumping unit that feeds all cylinders equally.. Your going to need to pull the injectors to get the proper P# anyway.. the # is stamped on the body.. DONT just replace 2.. if you find its not a head gasket..
I really don't think it is the pump. I do think it is injectors. I will be giving the motor a compression test just for my own sanity and I will do as delmer says while I have the injectors out.
Just for kicks pull the valve cover and see if all the pushrods are in place, that will kill the power and the unburnt fuel will go past the rings, from my experience about a gallon a day. In my career I have seen that frequently, usually in winter after someone gives it a wiff of ether, just another thing easy to check, Mel
And not affect the compression, and most of us would never think to check the valves.
Ok guys, the snow is gone and I am back working on my backhoe. I replaced my injectors and now it won't start at all. I bled the fuel system at the injectors. It doesn't seem that my pump is putting out much fuel. With the line completely off the injector it barely drips fuel. This goes for all injectors. I was thinking that the pump isn't putting out enough pressure to crack the new injectors. I haven't been able to get my hands on a compression adapter yet, But will have one soon.
chevman723 I am following your thread i have a 1970 580ck i am curious to see what you come up with on yours hopefully its not to serious...I am wondering where you are getting your adapter to check compression on these diesels i have a compression tester for gas engines what does the one for diesel look like, is it just a adapter you can buy that fits the gas tester or do you need a whole other tester????
Xpackdeals I ordered the adapter last night from autotoolworld.com. Item # Sg35300.I am unsure if it will fit my compression tester or not. I will have to get one that is compatible if it doesn't work with my gas engine one.
im following as well. Cant wait till you find the problem diver
Cool i have that one saved now, heres a pic of my tester does yours look similar if so can you let me know when you get your adapter in if it fits as i think i will order one for down the road right now mine is running fine but it would be nice to have one of those testers for a rainy day I dont know a heck of a lot about these diesels right now but i just did a pretty good size teardown on mine this winter which is more related to the shuttle and torque converter mine was leaking shuttle oil between the bell housing and the engine and a bunch of other stuff the only thing i really did to the engine was adjust the valves and pumpguysc schooled me on a busted throttle shaft in the pump...If you find out your problem is in the pump pumpguy is the man just make sure you follow what he says and you will come out on top he is very helpfull and just plain smart with these.... Also if you need a great place to get parts for this old girl I use Dale at tractorstuff, www.e-backhoeparts.com 765-378-3396 Dale is awesome to deal with and he ships right to your house and the guy knows his stuff with these old girls.... Take care and thanks.......
You HAVE TO have a guage that goes beyond 400 psi.. A gas tester WILL BLOW-UP in your face.!!! For a diesel to have compression ignition the compression has to be 300psi or greater.. Most diesel engines are speced at 400+.. To find the correct adaptor, just google, pencil injector compression adaptor.. and pick the one for a case engine.. Harbor freight sells 2 compression kits for a diesel engine.. 1 basic and 1 master.. they aren't that expensive.. For what you'll spend on it, you can easily resell it.. heck, check ebay..
pumpguy thanks for the info i had no idea, i have worked on gas engines for a long time but have never worked on diesels i try to read a lot on these 188's so i can get familiar with them just in case i have to tear into mine someday like they say knowledge is king....Thanks again
Yes I know that your standard auto compression guage is not the correct one for a diesel. I can't recall if mine is a diesel gauge or auto gauge. It's been years since I used it last. I pulled the valve cover tonight to make sure all of the rocker arms and pushrods were adjusted correctly and all seems ok. I will give it a compression test when I get my adapter. Then I should have a much better idea of where I'm at. Pumpguy, should my fuel be squirting out or dribbling out of my fuel line at the injector when cracked?
Squirting.. A fully charged battery is key.. The s/o lever has to be fully open and the throttle in the wide open position.. Personally I like to have another person to help.. I disconnect ALL the linkage, s/off and throttle.. then I loosen the injector lines AT THE INJECTORS just a few turns.. Then while a helper spins the engine.. I make sure the s/off if out of the way and I hold the throttle wide open by hand.. and watch for the fuel to be delivered thru the inj. lines.. Once the fuel is there and theres no air.. I tighten the lines and proceed to control the rpms by hand.. checking for correct idle, full rpms and no leaks.. Once that's done.. shut it down..hook up the linkage and MAKE SURE you get full travel when your using your foot and hand controls.. and adjust accordingly..
HI chevman723 and other test that you can do untyl you expect the compression gauge adapter is check the injectors one by one, withdrawn all the injectors and injectors line. take one injector line and put it in the injection pump take and injector and twist it turn the engine by starter and purge the injector line than is conected be careful whit your eyes and look as the injector sprayed, repeat this for the others injectors and the others point of injection on the pump. whiy this metod you have and relative idea of the state to the injection sistem good luck.
Well I finally got my adapter and compression tester. I pulled all of the injectors. #1 did not move the needle at all. #2 only read 10 psi. #3 read 250 psi and #4 didn't move the needle. I am not sure these numbers are very correct as this info completely conflicts with the earlier test of pulling the injector lines loose while running. The compression adapter doesn't have a seal at the bottom like the injectors do. I am wondering if the compression was sneaking by there
Yeah, that contradicts your post #22 where the middle two had no affect, and 1 and 4 killed the engine when you disconnected them. 250 is in the neighborhood, but I can't see an engine starting, let alone running enough to work with only one cylinder? How many times did you test each cylinder? Have you pulled the valve cover off to check the valves? run it on a temporary tank of fuel? hooked up air to your compression tester to see where the air is leaking? (intake, exhaust, engine breather).
Delmer, I have pulled the valve cover. I haven't gotten to the other things yet. I was hoping to have a better idea of what is going on after the compression test. I don't believe the readings are correct. I tested each cylinder twice and got pretty much the same readings. The thing didn't run rough when I parked it. It would drop to an idle when driving uphill or when I would try and drive into a pile of dirt. And I was getting a lot of diesel in the oil so I tried installing new injectors. after the new injectors it now will not start at all
After the last compression test, I reinstalled the old injectors. I will see if I can't get it running this evening.