Hi All, I have a 1994 , Case 580K Backhoe. It was running fine but had a severe fuel leak at the Throttle Pivot at the top of the injector pump. I removed the top half of the pump and replaced the two "O" Rings and re-assembled. I have the Service Manual for this machine and followed the Procedure on Priming. Using the Priming Pump there is good fuel flow at the first Bleed Screw or Line (above the fuel filter) - and with the Key On - good fuel flow at the bleeder screw on the pump. But will not start. Loosened the lines at the Injectors and No traces of any Fuel. I verified that the solenoid at the bottom of the pump does have power with the key on and it does "Click" when powered on. I have also removed the fuel line off at the filter and blew air back into the tank and I do get good fuel flow. I have repeated this process over a dozen times but still no fuel at the Injectors. Any Help is Greatly Appreciated. Mr.TG
Welcome to HEF @MrTG ! Does the manual fuel shut off still move after your throttle shaft repair? It's possible that you have not properly fitted the top cover & the shut off linkage is stuck in the shut off position. Hope you also got the spring for the throttle lever in the same hole it came out of..
Pull the shut off solenoid open and tie it off with some hay wire and see if it will start.
Thank You alrman & Billrog for your replies: The Manual Shut Off is free and does move. The Spring Loaded arm pivots back easily. I had earlier thoughts of possibly putting it back together wrong so I had taken it back apart and verified alignment of the pivot pin to the "U" on the shut off rod. As far as the spring on the throttle lever --- I had lifted the cover very gently and had taken a picture of it for reference and the spring was put back in the same hole. Hi Billrog: You mentioned holding the shut off solenoid open with a wire ..... The spring Loaded Shut Off pivots back to the open position against a stop. you want me to tie it firmly against this stop? Thx All
On mine the spring holds it closed and I've had to hold it open with wire a couple times when the solenoid burn out in order to run. Until replacing the solenoid I would just stall the machine to stop it by pulling either the bucket curl or stabilizer other wise you have to undo the wire each time you wish to shut of the machine.
I'm game .... willing to try any ideas. Will let you know tomorrow if it worked. Thx
@MrTG - I hope you're not offended by this question, while bleeding the injector lines..... you are cranking the engine aren't you? Sometimes a little sniff of ether is required to get things going again....
When you put the throttle lever back on.. are you sure you hit "the slot".. happens ALL THE TIME.. & just because the sh-off lever moves, doesn't mean your in the shut-off bar..
Hi All When trying to bleed the Injector Lines, yes I'm cranking the engine and throttle wide open for at 10 to 15 seconds at a time, give it a little rest so as not to overheat the starter and try again .... and I did try using some ether - It would fire for a second and then nothing... no luck. Yes to both questions thepumpguysc. I carefully gun sighted the alignment of the manual shut off pin on the bottom of the cover plate to the "U" on the shut off rod when assembling. That was also one of mine concerns where I took it back apart to verify alignment of pin to slot. Same with the Throttle Lever, aligned the slot on the lever and the slot on the top washer. Thank You for the suggestions.
There are two bleeder screws on the pump. The lower one is the most important one to open for priming. You probably need to confirm that the pump is still turning while cranking by removing the timing window & having someone hit the key. The clicking you are hearing testing the solenoid isn't an air conditioning compressor clutch? My guess is you still have air in the system.
Hi alrman, Yes I did prime the lower bleeder screw with the key on. Although it's not "Squirting or Bursting" out like I saw in some of the you tube videos. The fuel comes out in a slow stream. As far as the solenoid ....I was by myself so I ran a hot wire from the battery straight to the solenoid and touched it on / off and I could hear and feel it clicking. I will confirm that the pump is still turning like you suggested. My gut feel is the same as you mentioned, I still have air trapped in the system because the machine was running fine (other than the leak at the throttle lever) before I took the top half of the pump off. Thank You
Hi alrman, I removed the inspection cover off the front of the pump and verified the pump is turning. I'm at a loss . I'm going to try setting up a 5 gallon fuel container above the fuel pump and gravity feed it to the filter. This way I can eliminate the fuel tank on the machine. Another thought from a friend is to try hooking up a 12volt fuel pump to assist in bleeding the air out. Will update with findings.
I would think that's GOOD news! Just keep priming...... If the lift pump is 'on cam', the primer handle will have little or no resistance, then a short kick on the starter is required to rotate the engine a little to allow it to prime.
A full tank of fuel doesn't hurt, either. I've bled the lines and pump on my K a couple times after replacing the lift pump and filters. I topped the tank off and cracked the injectors and she couldn't wait to start. My throttle lever was leaking, too, but by some miracle or **** luck it stopped all by itself so that fix has moved further down the list of priorities. I wish the rest of the repairs would fix themselves too.
Yes I did fill the Fuel Tank. I even tried using a 5 gallon fuel container and gravity feed to the filter before the lift pump. It appears that when I'm priming with the lift pump, I can feel the pressure build up slightly .... a little bit of air at the banjo bolt above the water separator ... also same happens at the bleeder screw at the injection pump ... then the pressure seems to drop off and the cycle keeps repeating but no fuel at the injectors. I ordered a 12volt fuel pump from amazon and waiting for it to come. I'm hoping the constant fuel pressure will assist in getting rid of the air.
Had trouble bleeding a skidder once so I use a rag wrapped around and air nozzle and pressurized the fuel tank. Worked well.
Hi Billrog, How were you able to maintain some pressure in the fuel tank while bleeding? Was the rag a good seal? Worth trying. Thank You
I just loosened the lines at the injectors and kept blowing fuel until I figured all the air must be out.
So you have a diaphragm pump with a priming lever? Then you can use the feel of the lever to tell what the pressure and vacuum situation is. It will pump hard sucking a vacuum (plugged supply), pump too easy when it's pumped up to pressure (the diaphragm is held back by the fuel pressure and you're only moving the return spring), and a full even stroke means it's pumping fuel freely (line opened). Take the lines off and test it with your finger plugging the ports, then put it back and you'll see what I mean. If the pressure "builds up" on the priming lever, then you're not building pressure on the outlet.
Thanks Delmer. Good Information. Will give that a try. I also have a Good Spare Fuel Priming Pump that I can set up in a vise and try. Thank You
I have primed maybe a hundred Cat scrapers and dozers using a rag around an air stuck in the fuel tank filler. It doesn't need much pressure 3 to 5 psi is plenty. Get someone to help you if do it this way. It never failed to work for me.
Hi All I'm at a loss. Went to a Case Dealer to buy a Fuel Filter and the Fuel Filter / Water Separator. Ran into one of the mechanics there and I went over my scenario with him. I explained that I had removed the top part of the Injector Pump to replace the two "O" Rings on the Throttle Lever, because of a severe fuel leak, re-assembled, and bled the fuel system numerous times but cannot get any fuel at the Injectors. The mechanic explained that I CANNOT do what I did because I most likely disturbed the "Metering Rod" inside the Injector Pump and will Never get it started. He said the Pump Has to come out and go on a special bench where all the internal parts have to be re-calibrated. I was not to happy to hear that to re-build the pump is about $1200 and to buy one from them it's $1600 and about $800 to $1200 in labour for them to come out and change it. It's amazing that whether I had touch the pump or not, bottom line is to replace a couple of ten cent o-rings, it's going to cost between $2500 to $3000. Does Not Make Sense ..... Tinkerer & Billrog & Team ---- I did try pressurizing the fuel tank after I put in the new filters. Bled the air out in seconds but still nothing at the injectors. Thx for the help. Has anyone else come across this or does anyone have any input to what this mechanic said ?????????
I've heard similar stories from dealer before.... I have replaced orings on more than a few case IP's and as long as you keep it CLEAN and put it together EXACTLY like it came apart it will work. So, either you are putting it together wrong or still needs to get the air out of it.
im sure pump guy can re calibrate that injection pump or fix it.. if it is the lucas cav injection pump I replaced the top gasket and orings with no issues
Keep in mind, Case IH didn't build that pump, the dealer won't rebuild that pump, and they certainly won't do anything to keep you from buying a new one. If you had a flat tire, would you expect the dealer to know the best way to repair a tire, or tell you "I can sell you a new one". Does the priming lever resistance shed any light on the situation? If you open a bleeder and pump, you should get resistance most of the stroke of the lever. Close the bleeder and one or two pumps will have resistance then it should get easy, only the return spring for the lever operating. If the lever builds more pressure the more you pump, then you're sucking a vacuum.
You didn't mess w/ the gov. linkage did you?? You just unhooked the spring & took out the shaft, replaced the orings & put it back together?? A complete basic pump o/h costs about 800.00 FROM AN INJ. SHOP. depending on the problem.. I'm doing 1 RIGHT NOW w/ a seized head & rotor & its gonna be LESS than THAT.. That dealer/mechanic is blowing smoke up your azz.. I KNOW your frustrated & looking for answers BUT stay away from THOSE people. They're deathly afraid of injection pumps & will do/say ANYTHING to "replace" one..
The tool to remove the inj. pump costs 40.00 NEW online.. & the pump is keyed to the drive gear.. not a lot of thinking involved.. 800.00-1200 labor, HA.. I WISH I could charge THAT MUCH.. takes me about 1hr from start to finish & I charge 100.00.. to take 1 OFF & put 1 ON.. 30 min. off & 30 min. on = 100.00/hr
What a great Team here. Makes a person feel good with the responses ---- Thank You All. --Delemer - Priming Pump does exactly what you mentioned. So it must be good priming fuel without drawing air. When first priming I thought something was wrong until you explained. so Thx. --the pumpguysc - The pump is a lucas cav. I carefully lifted the cover when removing and took a picture (attached) of the spring location hole, for reference, took the spring off , replaced the O-rings, re-assembled and bled . I did not play with the governor or any other internal part. Thx for the advice on the dealer. I felt getting railroaded when he said that even to replace the O-rings I'm looking at $2500 to $3000. B.S. I thought to myself and left without getting rude. I will pursue the removal myself if all else fails. Thank You All
thepumpguysc - You mentioned the tool to remove the pump - what is it actually called so I can search it on line. Can I buy it on Amazon? Another question - If I was to remove the top cover off the pump, is there a way I can verify if the Metering Rod or Valve is stuck closed? Do you have any pictures of that Metering Valve? Thx
I'm more than a little dense here. What exactly does the priming pump do? Build up pressure on the lever?, or build up pressure on the system (minimal pressure on the lever)?
Hi Delmer, As I'm activating the priming pump lever I would get air and fuel as I bleed each bleeder screw - priming pump lever builds pressure. As I continue the air slowly disappears and only a steady flow of fuel - the priming pump lever would get soft with less pressure. But I found it much easier to bleed the air out after I changed the filters by applying a few pounds of constant air to the fuel tank as recommended by other Members.
MrTG, Did you replace the inline filter case hides under the frame rail coming out of the fuel tank? I have seen them clog and cause enough vacuum on back side of the filter to leek air in through the hose clamp. Also just how much cranking have you tried? I have had to crank them several minutes with all the injector line loose to get the IP to digest a big gulp of air.
Hi 63 caveman, Went under the backhoe and looked. There is a petcock in the center of the left rail (where the fuel tank is designed) and a rubber fuel line from there to the filter before the primer lift pump. Not sure if the prior owner eliminated the one mentioned. I had also tried earlier eliminating the onboard fuel tank by placing a 5 gallon fuel jug above the engine and gravity fed into the filter and bled the system. I'm afraid to crank more than 15 seconds at a time so as not to overheat the starter. No luck. Thx
Right not cranking continuously but 15 or 20, 15 second cycles to get the air out of the IP. Yes the PO may have done away with the small inline filter. The thing I see in this tread is that you have bled the lines and filters to the IP several times and keep coming up with air each time. In my experience once this is done the air should be gone. Before I started replacing the IP I would take the bleed screw out and fit a hose there and run it into a container of fuel, pump the primer and make sure no air is bubbling in the discharge.
Actually in Thread #22 I explained that I did get all the air out after following members advise on applying low air pressure to the fuel tank. I will try bleeding again with a hose like you mentioned and verify no air. Thank You
Do you have the ignition switch on and in the run position when you are doing priming ?
Hi Tinkerer, Yes the ignition switch is in the on position & I also verified that the solenoid did have power and clicking, when priming at the pump bleeder. I do have the service manual and followed the recommended procedure. Thank You
Excellent. You will get it going soon.
extreme diesel P# XD134
Amazon.com has it ! And quite few other online vendors.
I DO LIKE THAT ONE because of the "step".. There are countless stories on this forum about folks breaking the timing cover, because of the tool they used.
If the Fuel Metering Rod is stuck -- Is it possible to check it's function with the top cover of the injector pump off and possibly free it up? You're help is greatly appreciated. Thank You All
Well --- looks like the Injector Pump has to come off and sent out for re-build. Maybe that Case Mechanic was right. Back to square one. The 12volt fuel pump came in and I installed it before the filter. For anyone who wants to prime a fuel system -- can't beat it. I then loosened the banjo bolts one at a time at the injectors and cranked and cranked -- teased with a little ether -- It would run for a second but - No Fuel at injector banjo bolts. Unless there is a way to check that the Fuel Metering Rod inside the pump is not stuck, $$$$ oh the pain $$$$.
What banjo bolts are you talking about? IF there's a banjo bolt, then it's the overflow from the injector. The line from the injection pump to the injector will have a hex nut that you have to use two wrenches to loosen to avoid twisting the injector. I'd definitely have somebody else take a look at it before pulling the injection pump. There's just not much that you could have done that would require a rebuild...
Hi Delmer, When first checking for fuel, that is exactly what I was doing before, I was loosening off the hex line nuts to check for fuel. I was going through different forums the last few days and I read that the banjo bolts were to be loosened off to check for fuel and bleed the air out. Guess I read wrong info. Thank goodness for your response. Will go back and try again. I cannot remove the pump until I order the tools, so it's going to be a wait anyway. Gives me more time to play with it. I sure would like to know if I can verify if the Metering Valve inside the pump is stuck. I read many same identical issue as mine, where folks could not get fuel to the injectors after changing out the throttle pivot "O-rings" and ended up finding stuck Metering Valves as the cause. Maybe debris is falling into the lower pump cavity when removing the top cover and causing this problem --- just a thought. Thank You Delmer
There's no point in loosening the return fitting until you know the supply is full. Loosen all four of those injector line nuts at the injector and leave them loose until there is no air bubbles in the squirts. As far as I can remember, with the top cover off you can reach in there and slide the linkage back and forth and see if it's moveing or stuck.
Finally Got It Running . Delmer & All the TEAM Members : THANK YOU ---- THANK YOU ---- THANK YOU for not giving up on me. Delmer, I think your last push got me back out there and paid off. I re-installed the Electric 12volt Fuel Pump and primed again from the beginning. It took only seconds. I went to the injectors & cracked loose one line (that's before I read your last post Delmer) and as soon as I hit the key ----She Fired up. I've attached a couple of pictures showing the 12volt pump I used to prime only and then took it off & a picture of my case 580K. I hope this post helps those who run into the same issue and that I can also be of some help to others. And Again Thank You All MrTG
Don't LIE.. you just don't want us making fun of you for not being able to start that motor.. Lol Glad you gott'r goin.. Happy tractoring..
nice glad you got her running again. always nice to have something fixed
Good news you can now sleep once again the crisis is over. I'll can just imagine your sigh of relief when the engine fired up.
@MrTG Ah! The old loosen the injector return line instead of the delivery line to prime trick! Glad you finally got it going.
Yes what a feeling and a great relief. I have a lot of work to do and needed the backhoe. This machine has been very good to me with very little downtime other than this issue. ----- Feels Great to Have a good night's sleep ---- Thx
MrTG, Glad to see you back in business. The case machines (580 and 590 backhoes) are dam good and unless severely abused will provide great service. A ham feasted tech or operator is their big threat.