Hi all, Firstly thanks to all the amazing people on this forum with so much knowledge they offer up! I've just run out of light for today, and the backhoe is about a kilometer from the house, so I'll do more testing tomorrow. I started it up fine used a little ether as per usual in the cold weather, it was going fine just driving over to the hayshed to pick a bale off the top. It made it most of the way there running fine, and then it just completely cut out. Now it will not start or even fire. I tried priming with the lever on the lift pump, but didn't bleed anything yet. I tried a little ether straight in the air intake, but nothing. If anything it seems to be turning over more easily than usual, and it seems to sound different... I'll try to post a video. Coolant and oil both look fine. I'll check the electric fuel cut in the morning (I'm guessing there should be +12v when key is on?) and check the air filter too. I'll also try to bleed the fuel system. Anything else I should check? Thanks!
Depending on your serial # it could have 1 of 2 inj. pumps on it.. A CAV rotary or a Bosch inline pump.. BOTH have electric shut-offs.. The Bosch gets its power while cranking, I think.. The CAV should engage w/ the key on.. On older style CAV's you can remove the plunger & spring from the center of the solenoid & keep running.. you just have to use the manual shut off lever on the top cover to shut the engine down..
We just had a little conversation about turning over more easily and sounding different. A few possibilities. Most likely, there's no fuel (out of fuel, blocked filter/screen/fitting, burned out solenoid-maybe just when hot) and the engine is just cranking faster than it usually does because it usually starts before it gets up to full cranking speed. If you have rodents, they can build nests that block off the air intake and get sucked in, that will make the engine crank faster. Also the exhaust won't have as much flow, like it won't blow a can off the stack.
Take a piece of haywire and pull the shut off solenoid open hook in on something then start the tractor.
Thanks for the advice! Sun has just come up, I'll load up some tools and go start having a look. Thanks!
So still no luck. I added 20 litres of fuel just in case the gauge was wrong. I got 12.5v across the battery terminals, but could only get about 10.8v at the terminal on the injector pump. The pump is a Lucas Cav. Pulled the air filter, all good there. Loosened the top breather screw on the injector pump and had a good steady stream on the first hand pump. I'm worried that the easier turn over sounds similar to when my old Perkins wasn't closing valves... I've tried uploading a video, but the file is too big for the forum. I'm thinking that I might have to get a mechanic out to have a look. As great as all the help you guys have given, you're relying on my ability to describe symptoms...
Actually just before I give up. With the fuel cut lever on the top of the pump. Is that meant to move when power is supplied? It's spring loaded so it is in the fully counter clockwise position.
Hotwire that sucker. Or find out where you're losing the voltage, but it's easier in the short term to run a wire direct from the battery with a 5 amp fuse holder. Or, I think you can remove the shut off solenoid and use the shut off lever to kill it. The solenoid does not move the lever, they operate independently.
Just because you have voltage TO the solenoid doesn't mean its working.. 15/16" wrench, take it out & test it or take the guts out & screw it back in..
Thanks guys! I'm about to head into work and won't be back til after dark. Will see if I can give it a bash tomorrow arvo. Thanks again!
Interestingly they didn't teach me any of this when I was doing my music degree... I think I got ripped off!
It's spring loaded to close you have to compress the spring to open.
IF you run a hot wire to the solenoid, it should spark and click when you connect the wire. No spark and click, remove the GUTS like TPG said. Did the music degree at least teach you to judge rpm accurately?
Is the injector pump running, those engines had a rare failure of the camshafts, they would break at the front bearing . That would account for the turning over different sound, maybe pulling a valve cover and watching valve action as you turn it over may help with your diagnosis, as stated, rare but possible, also have had some issues with bolts dropping out and going through the timing gears, more of that than cam breakage.
Thanks for all the help. I undid an injector line, it doesn't seem to getting fuel there. Worse still I pulled a rocker cover and the top end isn't moving as it turns over.... I've called a mechanic as I don't have the time to do it myself, but I'm hoping it can be fixed in frame? And I'm not sure about the loader frame being down with the round bale soft hand on the front... I've replaced the radiator myself and that was not fun with the arms locked up let alone down.
That's not good.. the inj. pump runs off the cam gear & if the cam gear isn't turning, something bad happened.. HOPEFULLY its just a sheared key.. Either way, the front of the motor has to come off.. & w/ the arms down, you might play hell trying to get someone to work on it?? Hoping for the best.. Good luck & keep us posted..
Melben's post may be right on the spot about your engine. I remember reading about 580K problem some time ago that may be of interest to you. Go to posts #12 and #13 here -----> HeavyEquipmentForums Be sure to look at the link in post 13
Could be a stupid idea... If I held the hydraulic lever in the lift position and lifted the loader arms with a truck crane that should work? Then I could lock the arms and get on with trying to fix it?
That would work. If the engine is spinning easy, you can probably just hold the lever in raise and hit the starter. If you don't run it more than 30 seconds and then let it rest 3-4 minutes, you won't hurt anything.
Arms are up! 50kph winds from the west today, so I won't try pulling the bonnet off, but at least the loader frame is out of the way and the safety lock is bolted in place!
I've been flat chat with work, and we've had some wild weather, so no news. I've finally got a mechanic coming this Thursday, but he says if it's major he'll want it taken to his workshop and wouldn't be able to work on it for 6-8 weeks!!! I'm thinking if I make some room in my big shed I could tow it/ push it in there and potentially do it myself in that time frame. How hard are the 4b to stuff up a rebuild? I've redone a perkins 4.270d before, but that was just an in frame rebuild on an old tractor I thought was only worth scrapping... I'm no mechanic and would love advice on in frame vs out of frame rebuilds if it's just cam or timing etc. Thanks again!
If the engine was in good condition, such as low or no oil consumption and started good indicating good compression it would be best to do an in-frame repair. I am betting you will be just doing a camshaft and maybe replacing some drive gears . If the camshaft is broken due to a bolt coming loose and falling into the drive gear you may need to take the oil pan off for a thorough cleaning.
Will the fact it's a 4wd bring potential problems with removing the oil pan?
It just makes it more interesting. When you remove the front engine mount take a close look at the hydraulic pump coupler bushings and you may need to replace the front (rubber bushing) motor mount. If you need the (free) service manual I have one in .pdf form for a 580SK. Send me your email address in a private conversation and I will send it to you.
[QUOTE=" If you need the (free) service manual I have one in .pdf form for a 580SK. Send me your email address in a private conversation and I will send it to you.[/QUOTE] ARRRRRRRR !!! The service manual is a 665 mb .pdf file. My internet service and most others limit the size of a file that can be sent in an email. Typically 25 mb or smaller in size. I even put it in a .zip file format and still cannot send it. Your best option is ebay for about $20.00 AU.
Hi all, Sorry for the lack of updates, I'll post some pics as soon as I have time and figure it all out. The camshaft is snapped completely. The gear on the crankshaft has slipped the keyway, both cogs are missing some teeth. cam is out and I'm still waiting on the mechanic to come back to pull the drive gear off the crank. It's really stuck! He suspects some sort of hydraulic issue caused the pump to stop spinning stalling the engine and breaking everything at the same time.... I've been hunting for a replacement motor as it might be easier and cheaper in the long run if the crankshaft is damaged. I've found a couple of rebuilt 4bt motors for about AUD$8k or a "good runner" second hand one without the injector pump or manifold for AUD$2500. I could use my existing injector pump and bits. The cheaper one is located about 3,700kms away, and whilst rail would be cheapish for freight, I can't look at the motor and have to take their word for it. Are they the sort of motor that you can get away with second hand? or should I bite the bullet? I've also got to spend some money getting the hydraulics checked out... I know they're open ended questions, but sometimes other peoples experiences can help me make a decision...
I wonder if that's the "killer dowel pin" problem that a certain generation of Dodge Cummins trucks had? My inclination is "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know", that is, I'd prefer to fix what I've got, knowing the history of the motor and how it was running before the breakdown. If it was a killer dowel pin failure, you should be able to find some stories of what it takes to repair the typical damage.
I would advise you to not buy a used engine. You may have another one with the same problems your present one has. Like Delmer said those 390 Cummins have a terrible reputation for broken camshafts. A hydraulic problem would not likely cause all that damage. A dowel pin or a bolt that came loose is the likely problem. If your crankshaft key-way isn't trashed a rebuild is your best option. Bent valves are probably in the equation too.
Mine has a wire from the key switch to the injector pump solenoid valve. The terminal gets loose and falls off at the pump end. If you ran out of fuel, the injectors must be bled. Once, mine would start, but not run after the key was released. #2 son had got to it without a key. He hot wired it moving the white wire to a different terminal on the ignition switch. When he put it back, he chose the wrong terminal. That one was a little tough to diagnose.
Just curious here: At how many hours did this happen??? And good luck with getting this fixed!!
It shows about 8000 hours. The dowel pin is still in place, so it was something else. The solenoid is fine, it's the broken cam and other stuff that are the problem. If the crankshaft keyway is wrecked, I'll need a new crank as well as a new cam. Between those two parts I'm already at about $4k from quick price hunts. I'm wondering if the $2.5k motor is worth a shot, pull both apart and put the best bits together. Cheaper way to buy parts if they're not broken. I'm working long hours at the moment, and still need to pull the front engine mount off to put a puller on the crankshaft gear, so it'll probably be a while. I spent last weekend making sure the little fire truck was all working for the upcoming fire season. I need another couple of days each week...
Just had another look at the motor, whilst trying to figure out how to easily hook up an engine hoist. I noticed there's a bolt missing inside the timing case. My guess is it came loose and jammed the gears. I'm leaning towards the $8k rebuilt 4bt, it would be quicker than me trying to rebuild mine, as the valves are probably all bent and maybe a ruined crank and possibly rods... One local company did give me a quote of them doing a full rebuild if I dropped the whole machine off at their workshop, for "about $25,000 to $30,000"!!!!! I paid about $25k for the whole machine with a bunch of add ons...
THAT seems alittle steep.. have you tried Cummins DIRECTLY?? If I remember correctly a reman long block 4BT is only 5-6K.. just swap the "bolt-on's".. starter, inj. pump, injectors, ect.. & if theres a Cummins close-by you can save the shipping charges & pick it up..
I'm in Australia, so the dollar is a bit different. The cummins importer is in Melbourne AFAIK, a good 1000kms away. I should try them though.
The missing bolt will most likely be in the oil pan and may be in pieces. It happens way tooo often. $8000.00 Au converts to $6401.72 US. That is a decent price in the US if it is a complete engine. Did you ever get a service manual ?
New & rebuilt short blocks seem to sell for around $2500 here. The 580 K had no turbo.
Check on ebay.com they have a short block cummins unit for 1,300.00USD and a long block for 2,450 USD just an option, prt# 3905377.
Hey Jimmy, That's a bit of a mess you have there..... What part of Aus, are you in? I may be able to help or point you in the right direction.
Thanks for the offer! I'm near Goulburn NSW (near canberra). The mobile mechanic is back in my neck of the woods today and ripped the engine out and took it to his workshop. He said it'll save time and money in the long run. He probably prefers his workshop than a corner of my hayshed too. (I pulled and pushed it in there with a little old isuzu ute! I'll speak with him tonight and hopefully find out more.
Willie, My Series 1 [shifter on the floor] K has a turbo. Maybe the motor has been replaced?
Grady; I just discovered your post. Is yours a K, or Super K (SK) It was my understanding from the experts at Town Line (Plainfield NH) that K was non turbo, SK was turbo. Might yours be an addition after manufacture? or might it be mislabeled in repaint.
Grady: I just discovered your post. Talking to the people at Town Line Equipment (Case Dealer) in Plainfield NH, I was convinced that 580K was naturally aspirated. Super K was turbo. Has someone added a turbo? or is it mislabeled in a repaint? Willie
The K and superK were both offered with and without turbos. Just take a look at the engine piping pages on the Casece parts page if you have any doubt. The K model (phase 1, floor shifter) was discontinued and replaced by the superK (phase 3, side shifter). There was no phase 2.
I think I see why it won't run, your engine is missing! Hopefully the mechanic can hook you all up for a reasonable price. Good time to tape off all the open hoses and pressure wash it!
While you have engine out check your welds on fuel tank side of frame and also the hydraulic side. These machines were bad about welds breaking and fluid leaking so now's a good time to repair if needed.
Willlie, I'm pretty sure mine is factory like mitch said. Mine also leaks hydraulic oil from where someone already tried to re-weld the frame/tank and didn't completely succeed. one of these days.....
What sets the Super K apart from K? All this time I thought it was turbo.
Usually a bit more horse power is all there is to it plus when they went to the phase III