Getting ready to open up a can of worms and eventually going to need help. Little ways back, some had offered suggestions on how to remove the rusted bolts from the manifold. Tried finding that thread with no luck so starting over with a new post. Manifold has been cracked for sometime. This past week I’m making a list of filters to order. Checking the air cleaner, there’s soot all over it. Get to searching and find the muffler is part of the problem but the manifold crack is probably compounding the issue so it’s time to dig in. From the previous help, what I remember, is soak and hammer, bang on the bolts for sometime! That’s the plan for this week…all week…soak and hammer. Everyone can visualize what these bolts look like. Some of the heads have abraded to where socket will not fit. The bolt shank from the head to the thread is eroded. Very likely shearing here before torquing the threaded portion out. I have convinced myself I can still get the twisted off studs removed. We will see how that pans out. The top bolts are laying in a cradle made by the manifold and holds some penetrating fluid. The threaded hole in the head backside is open but difficult to get a spray in there. The bottom bolts are harder yet to spray / soak. Ideas??? Hole side of the engine is wet now from just spraying yesterday. Ordering parts from Broken Tractor today as it looks like they have what’s needed. Case price on the muffler was over the moon. It’s probably more correct to remove the head and have it surfaced (at least checked) but I am hoping not to remove the head. Am I looking for trouble not truing the head? Does the new manifold need surfaced? Any and all advice is appreciated. Been dreading this since I first found it. For me, a lot of times, getting started is the toughest part! Hope that holds true here.
My guess is that you will not be able to get those bolts out. You will probably end up with them twisting off broken before they come out. Then you will have to drill the remainder out of the head. By the time you try to do all that by hand, you may as well take the head off and take the whole mess to a machine shop and let them do it. Any automotive machine shop can set this up on a mill and remove the studs and resurface the head and you will be good to go.
Heat will help as well. Even if you can't get a proper torch set to it, MAPP gas can get some stuff like that hot enough it will spin out. If tapping with a hammer, use a punch in the center to try and get the force to the threads on the other end instead of just smashing the bolt heads. See how the first few go, then decide whether to just cut the heads off so you have some bolt material to work protruding from the head rather than having them break off flush. Realistically; Plan on breaking them off, having to drill them out and likely some heli-coils.
Is this your old thread? HeavyEquipmentForums
The right answer is post #22 and #23 in the other thread. Weld a nut to those and turn them out with a pair of pliers most likely. I'd take die grinder and tiny cutting wheel, like dremel size, and notch the bolt about 3/16" out from the head, then twist it off, weld a nut to the head if you need to, but it won't do anything to the threads being so long. Once you have the manifold off, easy to weld a nut onto a short stub like that, once they cool, most will turn out easy. If you want to try the way they are, then an impact to loosen, weld a nut if they won't grip, can be a 3/4" nut over the whole head. Then if they move at all, rock back and forth until they loosen or break. But that open side is a gift, use it to score or cut those bolts off completely.
If you are going to try to remove them yourself, whatever method you chose, I would suggest giving them a couple of good smacks on the end with a 2lb hammer. It will do wonders to stretch the threads. Provide you have the manifold off !
DogHead, if there was a prize, you get it for finding the old thread! It was further in the past than I thought. Thanks. And thanks to everyone. Good ideas and that’s what I need. Hardheaded - still going to try leaving the head on the engine. If it has to come off down the road…there will be lots more questions. IF the bolts do come out, does the new manifold need surfaced? On assembly, should the bolt threads get anti seize? That’s probably a waste of time and product.
A new manifold will already be surfaced. If you get a used one lay a good straight edge on it to check it. I would use never sieze. Totally up to you. If you can cut the heads off of the studs a small pipe wrench is what I have used. I don't envision taking the head off --- unless it has to go to a machine shop to have a pro drill them out.
Like @Tinkerer says, cut off the heads of the bolts & remove the manifold. That will release any tension on the bolts. A few sharp hits on the end of the bolts & using a pipe wrench, close to the head, most, if not all, will just unscrew. (fingers crossed ) The bottom row of bolts should not be as badly rusted. Try to find a socket that fits more snug with the aid of a 2lb hammer.....
ALR, I really hope you are correct on the bottom bolts not being as rusty. That would be awesome! There was a time when I considered myself to be a patient person….I think the patient part has wore down to nothing! The plan was to soak and hammer all week then start the twisting off process. Late this afternoon, I stuck nuts on two of the bolt heads. Warmed up the head steel around the thread area. Ate supper. Went back out and got those two out. It was awesome! If this update to the post comes back to bite me…I’ll never update again until the project is completed. How much heat can I put on the head before it damages a gasket or injector? In my younger years, H, M, and later 966 - pulling hard at night the manifold and muffler were cherry red for hours with flame shooting out the muffler. I didn’t get it that hot . More thank you and appreciation for everyone’s help. Using a little of all…some more, others a little less. I’m very grateful to everyone for your insight and willingness to share. Those who do this on a regular basis, it may not be a hallelujah moment. On my side of the fence, it definitely is. Great day. Will see what tomorrow has in store.
No matter how many times I have done it, it was always a hallelujah moment ! I don't recall that I ever heated the head to get a stud out. Doing so is not a good idea in my little world. There is a big difference between a running motor that heats the entire head and centralized heat from a torch on a small area. The only time I ever saw a cherry red manifold on a diesel was at tractor pulls.
if you have an oxy acetylene torch, heat the bolt as hot and fast as you can, then let it cool completely. That's the biggest thing that welding a nut on does, it heats the bolt till it deforms, then shrinks when cool. This is the best place to use anti seize in the whole backhoe. If you don't use it here, might as well throw it out.
Delmer, on the anti-seize, my thoughts were…it can’t hurt but 5,000 hours and 20 years down the road - will there be a benefit? Now, is there a high temp anti-seize I should look for? Another good day here. We left early this morning to do errands in town…didn’t get back till after 4! Attacked bolts again. Very successful on that adventure so now it’s back to questions. I’d like to chase the threads and best I can tell, it’s a M10x1.5. Can someone verify that size tap needed? What should these manifold bolts be torqued to? Torque pattern? Center out after snugging all bolts down? How would I go about smoothing out the mating surface of head? I think there’s a small ridge around the exhaust port. File? Looking inside the ports, the exhaust valve stem is partially visible. Third cylinder valve stem is shiny in a small section. Did a piece of carbon slip off or is there a bigger problem? Top pic is the cleaned off stem. Bottom pic is how the other three look. Is there anything special about the gaskets, like this side out? I’m assuming there’s no sealant on the gaskets. Again, many thanks for everyone’s input, advice, tips. Parts are supposed to arrive Thursday evening. Hindsight - I should have asked where to go for parts. These seem reasonable but have no idea of the quality.
Pics from today that didn’t make the first cut! And one last question for the night. The tractor manual has a page on the spark arrester. Is this muffler supposed to be purged of soot at some intervals??? I thought the old muffler was extra heavy…like it was 1/2 full of water but that’s not the case. I’m afraid these pictures are going to be helter skelter. I was trying to put them in the text at appropriate places…not sure that’s going to happen! Hopefully not too confusing.
If your muffler has that plug, then follow the directions. Any anti seize is better than none, they're mostly for high heat, some for SS galling. I like a utility knife blade for gaskets or rust like that. A flat file will work to knock the scaly rust down as long as you're careful to keep it flat. One of the new bolts will work fine to clean the threads, or another one of the same thread with some slots ground in it. The valves are fine, one is open, the rest are closed.
Regular permatex is rated for 1600 degrees F. This is rated for 2400 degrees F.
Bootheal ; "What should these manifold bolts be torqued to? Torque pattern? Center out after snugging all bolts down ?" Yes, center out. Torque ? From the service manual --------this is for the Iveco Case NEF 445 M2 engine The 580m's have three different engine arrangements depending if it is a 580M, 580M series ll or series lll
Tinkerer, the bolt listed is the correct size so can probably assume 43 nm will be the correct torque. Thank you for looking this up. Thanks to all for your input and expertise. I was expecting a nightmare. So far has been relatively pain free…except for the blood blister on my thumb. It snuck in between the anvil of the air hammer and the bolt head. Definitely would not recommend doing that.
Diesel exhaust temps run 1200 deg F. Pretty much any anti-siege will work. Most high temp ones are good to 1800 deg F. Get whatever you can find. The copper stuff is good too. You can use a piece of glass and fine sandpaper to make sure the manifold is flat.
Edgephoto, I took Swetz suggestion. Found some locally. On the manifold surface, it’s probably as good (true) as the head. I don’t know what the tolerance of the two mating surfaces are. If it has to be spot on, I’m in trouble. If it cracks again, then the head and (new) manifold go to the machine shop. Any opinions on heating cycles for the new manifold after installing? Bring it up slow, several start/stops? Don’t worry about heat cycles? I’ve never read anything about this.
I chased the threads today using a tap after getting confirmation on bolt dimensions. When I started cleaning threads yesterday, a few rounds and it was starting to get tight. Thought I needed to recheck the tap size. Used a taper tap but it was trying to bind deep into the hole. I’m sure everyone here knows (except me) the threaded holes go completely through the ears on the head (bolts do not) and I assume if bolts did, they would never come out. When the tap was getting close to the unused threads, it got tight. Best I can tell, there was no metal removed. Eventually got the tap all the way through every hole…just nervous. Put away almost every tool I own after cleaning up. It takes a truck bed full for me to do something simple. Hopefully done with stuck stuff for awhile.
No special procedure just put it together and fire it up.
Getting nervous again…bolt torque value. Checked with the case mechanic today and he said it is not spelled out in the manual but rather per grade and bolt size. Bolts received today are M10x1.5 and stamped on the head is 8.8. This is from the case service manual: 52 to 61 Nm. With the note about lubricant, should I go less by using the anti-seize? Something else that’s bothering me, one side of the gasket is raised, the other grooved (naturally). Does it matter which side goes to the head? Right now, the groove is against the head with the raised part against the manifold. I think this should be the last of the questions….yeah, right!
As for orientation of the gasket it goes whichever way fits properly. If you flip it over does it still fit? It really does not matter which way. Torque value listed there is max for the bolt size and grade. Don't overthink this. Most technicians/mechanics don't even use a torque wrench for a manifold bolt. Just make them tight. I would use the 43Nm from the previous page if using a torque wrench. I worked with a guy in the 1980s who was close to retirement. When the kids would ask him how tight to make a bolt. He would say "Tighten it until it breaks then back off a 1/2 turn". They would look at him puzzled and say "if it breaks how can I back it off". He replied "So don't tighten it too much or look up the spec. I am not the answer man".
Thanks edgephoto… I worked with a guy who had a similar saying. Tighten until it strips then back off a 1/4 turn. He was a big guy and I could always tell when I got a bolt he had been at.
I would rather use the torque specs out of the book of the engine manufacturer. But, either one would be fine. There isn't much difference in them. About 7 or 8 foot lbs.
I'd go 31-32 ft-lbs on a m10 when using mechanic's glitter.
Thanks JLarson. Everyone is in the same area. Good to know. I am super impressed and grateful for the amount of help.
Positive conclusion to this can of worms! Appreciate everyone’s input. It took a day or so longer to get this posted as I took the hood off and straighten out a kink in the front corner. Bent bad enough it broke the gas strut on that side. New struts ordered. Even though the muffler has 580L stenciled on it, this is a 580M. No issues bolting up that I’m aware of. Only difference between the two mufflers, the old one had a plug on the bottom to clean the spark arrester….totally missed it needed cleaned!
Looking good!! Thanks for the update!
Great news ! Nice looking machine. No need to worry about the clean-out plug if there is no spark arrester in it. If there was, the plug would be on it. IMHO.
Great job!
I’m telling ya, it wouldn’t have went as well without folks to lean on. It’s a group win. Thanks
Nice work. Patience is under rated!
As a rule of thumb reduce the torque figure stated in the manual by at least 10-20% when using copper-based anti-seize UNLESS the procedure for installation of the fasteners specifically calls for anti-seize - in which case don't.
Glad you noted copper base.
If it was graphite-based then a 5-10% reduction in torque, and if moly-based it could be anything up to 50%. Somewhere I have some data I picked up years ago regarding the increase in tension in a fastener produced by various "friction reducers" when applying no more than the specified torque to said fastener. Had some nasty (one close to being fatal - but fortunately wasn't) experiences with people coating fasteners in anti-seize when it wasn't called for in the procedure and then failing to take it into account when setting the torque tooling. Events like that focus the mind wonderfully.