So I decided to pull the shuttle out of my 580se over the weekend. Backhoe has always had an issue with struggling to move once warmed up in either fwd or reverse. So far I have, pulled the shuttle, and torn it down. I haven't seen any issues at all to lead me to believe that the shuttle was the culprit. Fwd & reverse clutch packs look brand new, no visible wear on charge pump, no broken bellville washer, etc. What do the shuttle experts on here think was the problem? I plan on installing a rebuild kit and reman TC since I have gotten this involved. Any pointers for a newbie? What to do, or most importantly, what NOT to do? What tolerances to maintain, etc.
A stall test before you pulled it apart may have helped some diagnostics. Maybe even a pressure test. When you say "the machine struggled to move once warmed" - Do you mean the engine reved at high rpm & the machine was slow to move? or was the engine struggling? Were you operating the machine in 1st or 2nd gear when this lack of drive was evident? Did you ever notice if the engine almost stalled out when you drove the loader into a heap to fill the bucket? (Hopefully in 1st or 2nd gear)
The machine always ran with plenty of power when cold, but once you worked it for a while (30mins - 1 hr) it would start "slipping". Meaning engine reved at high rpm and machine was slow to move. Engine never struggled. Most always in 1st or 2nd gear, obviously got worse in the higher gears. Yes, I have noticed that engine would pull down quite a bit when driving into a pile. For what its worth, this has been occurring for quite some time (10-12 years). But the last few years it has gotten ridiculous, almost to the point that the machine is unusable if you have to travel any distance. I was fully expecting the forward clutches to be toast, but to my surprise, everything looks brand new inside there. Very little trash in the sump, just a few metal shavings that led me to dig a little deeper.
If the engine "pulls down" excessively while driving into a pile, that would usually indicate that the torque converter was at fault. However, most times that would also show the forward pack to have been running hot due to excessive load causing slippage.... not so in your case. Is there much wear at the transmission housing where the fwd/rev lever stops on the housing? Perhaps causing over selection of the control spool & misalignment of oil ports? Is there any wear noticeable where the oil control rings run in the forward piston carrier or the housing for the planetary gear? Was the control valve easy to remove? Any scoring in the housing/bore where it operates? Park brake has not been dragging?
I have not investigated the control valve yet nor the parking brake. This issue has been ongoing for at least 12 years, so I was expecting catastrophic failure somewhere but have yet to locate it
Could you provide answers to those questions so Alrman can help you further ? You may have a couple of issues going on.
Sure, I will pull it down a bit further over the weekend and report on my findings.
Update: 1. I did not see any excessive wear on the housing where fwd/rev lever stops, could definitely tell where it was bottoming out, but in my opinion, nothing excessive 2. Did not see any noticeable wear where oil control rings run 3. Control valve came out fairly easily, no excessive wear in the bore I'm thinking that the shuttle was not the culprit. Since I have gotten this involved, I am going to go ahead and rebuild shuttle. Should I replace converter with reman? After it get it together, I will investigate the brakes.
Yes, definitely replace the torque convertor ! From what you described previously, that is at least part of your problems. Check the flex plate very carefully for cracks. If it were mine I would replace it.
That's great, but unfortunately it doesn't shed any light on your problem..... Re replacing the torque converter, what do you have in mind? Buying a new one? or having yours reconditioned? I would take a good look at the charge pump also, it maybe losing efficiency as oil temp rises. Some Ebay repair kits include a new pump, maybe worth considering.
I plan on buying the kit that includes the charge pump and a reman converter. Was planning on buying from brokentractor.com. They seem to have the best price that I have found.
So, the project has been on hold for the last couple of weeks but I did receive all the parts to rebuild. Next step is to install the reman torque converter. What are some tips you can give me as far as aligning the TC on the flywheel? By the way, the bolts that hold the flexplate to the flywheel were a bear to remove. About half of the bolt head was behind the TC making it almost impossible to get a socket on. Stripped out 2 of the 6 bolts while removing the old TC. New bolts on the way. Any tips to avoid stripping the new bolts when installing?
"Any tips to avoid stripping the new bolts when installing?" Use a torque wrench.
99.9% of people do not have the flexplate alignment tool. I worked at a dealer for 10yrs & never saw one....... Attach the flexplate to the converter, nip the bolts, use a vernier at 90 degree angles to centralise the flexplate to the spigot. Tighten the bolts - recheck the alignment to be sure nothing moved during tightening. If you use 3/8" drive sockets with a wobble drive extension, the fitment of those 5/16" mounting bolts to the flywheel is alot easier.
I got one made it myself used specs from tools list in service manual seen many spigots cracked on converters from guys just throwing them in spend time and do it right easy to make tool
Install the flex plate with two bolts, while the bolts are still loose turn the flex plate against the bolts and then tighten the other two bolts you're as centered as you can be.
Thanks guys!
Have you made any progress since June 13th ?
Ha, no i haven't. I have all parts in hand, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Put shuttle together over the weekend. Went together surprisingly trouble free thanks to alot of great advice on here. Haven't installed on the machine yet, not really sure how i'm gonna tackle that thing by myself. Thinking of making a bracket to install on floor jack, but haven't finalized "design" of that yet.
I have used a floor jack with a plate (bracket). Not very safe tho because floor jacks tip way tooo easy. Can you rig a come-along above it ? I have done that with good results. Especially when reinstalling flywheels. I finally broke down and bought a Harbor Freight transmission jack last year. Should have bought it years ago. Oh well better late than never !
Over the years, I have always lifted shuttles in & out by hand. Raising the machine high enough, sitting upright under the machine (2wd), using my hands & knees to lower & lift them into place. 4wd hoes don't give you enough room to sit up & they were always a bit of a struggle. The last one I repaired was a 4wd, I removed it by hand, & I knew that at my age I couldn't lift it back in, so I rigged a simple bracket on a floor jack with a removable lift plate. The side supports are 1" angle, using a single bolt in each side of the shuttle allows it to pivot a little to allow alignment during installation - it worked a treat ....... should have done it years ago
Just be sure and align your torque converter slots with your pump tabs.
Perfect, thanks alrman!!!!!
Worked like a champ!
...... But is the tractor driving properly?????
Finally getting around to responding to this. Took her for a spin yesterday and worked flawlessly. Stayed in 4th gear the entire time and pulled a hill that it never had been able to previously. Now the input shaft seal on rear end is leaking, but no big deal. Otherwise, she seems to be doing very good. Thanks to all for the advice! Now to fix some leaky cylinders that I've been putting off...........
What the heck was the problem though??? Did you ever find the "smoking gun" like a bunch of worn out clutch frictions?
Nope, inside parts of shuttle looked new. Oil did look a little dark, but clutch disks did not appear to be worn at all. No visible wear on charge pump. Only thing I can figure is maybe it was the converter, and it was caught before it took the shuttle out?
Most likely it was the torque convertor. IMHO. That is the only thing that is different from when you had problems.
Would you care to share those specs ? My local Case dealer wants $150 flat rate to align it using his tool. I have never done it , but I guess it takes all of ten minutes ? I would like to make my own also.
Go to post #14 and 16 HeavyEquipmentForums
Ok. I have seen this tecnique stated by others. I guess its not rocket science. I am just worried about too much vibration. When I was younger, I knew everything,,,,,, now not so much , LOL. thanks