I was backdraging a road and put the shuttle in forward to go make another pass and it would not go forward . It tried but could not move in the dirt, even at full throttle. I lifted the wheels off the ground and they would spin forward or reverse what looked like the same speed. So I backed up to pavement and gave it another try. It would pull itself slowly in first gear on the hard surface but the forward clutch was slipping. I have not had the time to get to this problem for awhile so when I needed the hoe I drove it backwards, which still works 100%, and pushed it forward with the hoe when I had to. The last time I was pushing it along there was a little dip in the road and the tractor started to roll, I reached around and slipped it into first gear put the shuttle in forward and felt it kind of slide into engagment and we drove up the other side and down the road. Now, if put in forward and the throttle is picked up to about 1000 RPMs, after about 5 seconds you can feel it slowly start to engage and sort of slide into forward. If you do not drop the RPMS as it engages it will snap you head back pretty good and once it is locked up it can be driven. I have not tried driving it in dirt though so I don't know what the foward power is. I checked the linkage and valve motion and don't find anything wrong on the out side. Fluid level is good. What happened to the shuttle? Can I replace o-ring or seal on the vlave or do I need to drop the shuttle. Thanks in advance to anybody who can help me with this. Jim.
My parking brake sometimes will not release totally so make sure this is not a problem. Otherwise you description sounds like low fluid level, but you say this is fine. How long since you changed the fluid and cleaned the screen?
Bowen, thanks for the reply. I'll check the parking brake. Fluid and screen were changed/cleaned last fall but it was not used all Winter. This problem happened on the third day of use this Spring. Jim
I checked the park brake and although its going to need attention it's not stuck. Jim
Look at that parking brake again. I thought I had a terrible problem, wouldn 't hardly move in soft sand. Ended up discarding the parking brake mechanism, and everything works great.
TheOldMan, I know the feeling about having a terrible problem. The pads and the disc and the disc are free, they both can be moved by hand. Thanks for your thoughts. I sure hope it's something simple that I'm missing! Jim
With all this said, I am not the best one to advise you on what to do next. Maybe someone smarter than me will advise you how to start the process of checking pressures. I have no experience with this nor tools. I have to look for simple stuff. It does not take a great deal of oil. I think I would change the oil being sure to drain the torque converter again. Make sure you use the proper fluid, and see if any particles show up in the pan. Maybe someone used too much silicone and the screen is stopped up. Maybe inspect all the lines to the oil cooler being sure that nothing is pinched or damaged. Looking at the front of the machine the two left side lines are for the shuttle. Is the plug out of the bottom of the torque converter? If not take it out and see if oil runs out. This visible plug is NOT the drain. The drain is a total rascal to find up in that hole. My big plug was missing for years. This thread might have some pictures that might help. BTW: To check the level it's supposed to be warmed up and running with fluid up in the TC. (Cold it should check overfull I think.) The manual actually says to check it in 4th gear with the parking brake set and at idle speed. This sounds dangerous to me! Be careful.
Bowen, thanks very much for the advise. You are right about it not taking that much fluid. I should probably drain it and check for chunks. In the morning I'll check the cooler lines. I am hoping someone MUCH smarter than me has run into this before and can set me on the right path. I agree with you about checking the fluid level with the trans in gear too, I always check it with the trans in neutral and make sure it is full. Thanks for the link. I followed along on that one as a lurker, great pics and alot of good information there. Jim
jimr, You most likely have a toasted forward clutch pack in your shuttle. You will need to pull it out to repair it. Drain the oil & remove the pan & see what is revealed. Lots of info here if you search - try this thread - HeavyEquipmentForums or this one - & this one - These posts refer to 580D & K - these shuttles are very similar to yours If you need more help or advice, just ask :drinkup
alrman, thanks for the reply and links. I will let you know what I find. Jim
Hi guys, I want to update this thread. Over the past couple of days I've been working my way to draining the shuttle and I've had to move the hoe a couple times. Every time it gets moved forward works a little better. This moring I moved it to my work area and it did not even hesitate to engage forward so I went and dug into a pile to check power. In first gear 2WD wet sandy dirt it spun the tires about 2inches and then they held at full throttle. I would guess that its putting 80%-90% power to the ground. I have read about other peoples shuttle problems but this does not seem to follow their symtoms. If this is "normal" for a shuttle that needs to be rebuilt please let me know. I just want to make sure that I'm describing the problem right. Thanks again to everyone for sharing your wisdom and advise. Jim
They will do funny things jimr. You are checking the oil level with the engine idling? Have you done the stall test - in FWD & then REV?
alrman, yes with the engine idling. I don't put it in fourth gear with park brake on though, I put the trans in neutral shuttle in fwd. I can't see how the shuttle would know the difference and the park brake has issues, please let me know if that is not right. I have not done the stall test. I am so baffled by the shuttle getting better and better all by it's self I never thought to try it. So far all I have done is to check the linkage and lines (per Bowen), removed the floor and spent two days washing 26 yrs. worth of dirt and grease off of the whole thing. Figured I'd be glad that was done when pulling the shuttle. I know to trust alrman:notworthy so i'll tear into it tomarrow, I hope. I can't see opening up the shuttle and not rebuilding the entire unit. Like has been said before on HEF it's only time and money! I'm sure I'll need help though. Jim
I have only EVER checked them with shuttle in neutral & idling. Do the stall test & check the oil pan contents. TIP - If they have done ALOT of work, the stops for FWD & REV, get a little worn & it is possible to 'over select' FWD. This can cause a problem too. Try to engage it gently till you feel the detent ball doing it's job.
alrman, after reading your reply I went back and read my onwers manual and of course you are right, check the shuttle oil at operating temp with the shuttle in neutral. Another lesson learned, thanks. I did the stall test no load-2150 forward-2000 reverse-1900 hydrualic-1900 The best part is after the stall test I'm back to VERY weak forward power. You know, if my equipment is broke I want it to stay broke until I fix it! Your tip brings up something that I wondered if I should mention. When I checked the linkage adjustment (had it disconected from the lever on the control valve) the detent was not positive, there was about an inch of movement at each postition. The other thing that was odd was when it was cold before the stall test it did not have neutral just forward and reverse after the stall test neutral worked fine. I'll drain the fluid tell you what it looks like. Jim
Does that mean that when the shuttle was in neutral position, the machine was trying to drive forward? If so, the fwd clutch pack is toasted....... The difference in stall speeds at fwd & rev shows slippage in fwd. About the control valve, what do you mean by "detent not positive"? Was the valve rotating fwd & rev easily or did it feel tight?
Yes when it was first started (shuttle in neutral) it wanted to go forward so I shut it off and moved the tranny to neutral. As the floor is still out I could watch the drive shaft and halfway between the neutral position and the reverse position (trans in neutral) the shaft would start turning reverse direction. After the stall test neutral worked normally, with the shuttle in neutral gears could be selected. The control valve can be turned easily by hand with the linkage disconected, the detents can be felt but they don't hold the vale firmly in place there is porbably an inch of rotation before any resistance is felt.
Here's a pic of a fwd clutch pack with a broken bellville spring & resulting damage to the plates. The spring breaks & the boken pieces jam up the pack - locking it into drive. The oil pan should show something to prove theory.
alrman, thanks for the pics. I'm going out to drain the shuttle and pull the pan shortly. I'm thinking about pulling the shuttle too as it doe not seem that this can be fixed with it in place. What do you think? Jim
See what you find first - & yes, it has to come out to fix it.
Well, I drained the fluid and it was black and smelled like burned clutch. There is a little black slime on the screen and on the bottom of the pan but no pieces of anything. When the problem first happened I had checked the fluid and it was still clear. There can only be an hour or so on it since then. I guess when it goes it goes fast. Anyway I pulled the shuttle and have it on the bench. I was going to start cleaning things up and the pump in the parts washer froze up. guess that has to fixed before I find out what is inside the shuttle. Will it hurt the torque converter to run the motor a little? The reason I'm asking is because, of course, I already did and there was slight metalic clanging coming from the T/C that was never there before. Maybe tomarrow afternoon I'll get back at this. I'm sure I'll need help with the rebuild. Thanks Jim.
So this would be the problem. The seal in the forward clutch piston is laying down on the job letting fluid to leak past so there was not enough pressure to fully engage the forward clutch. View attachment 91458 looks like a mouse got in here, this is the seal for the clutch piston not a great photo but you can see that there is chunks missing nearly all the way around it. View attachment 91460 this is one of discs from the clutch pack View attachment 91456 and again View attachment 91459
I'm learning how to post pictures from Packrat Here is some other concerns: The notch that the detent cam engages the control valve has some wear and the coresponding tab on the detent cam does also so there is some play between the two. There is also wear on the detents themselves but this item is cheap so I will replace it. I don't know if I need to replace the valve body itself. There is also wear on the other end of the vale body where the shift lever seats. Also on the case where the shift lever stops I need some help with these problems as I don't know how bad this wear is and if it will cause trouble..... alrman are you out there?
Hey jimr, There seems to be a problem with the pics of piston seal & plate........ Re the valve - can't clearly see how bad the wear is, but it seems to have done quite alot of work. Re the housing wear - I usually build that up by welding with a 2.5mm GP welding rod ( not too many amps) Then squaring up the stops using a brand new grinding disc. You could use stainless or nickel rods as well - over the years I found GP to do the trick as it is only being used as a fill, no real strength required. Sometimes the flats on the lever need a little attention too. Cover the bore with some tape to stop any spatter getting down there. I have mostly used the aftermarket parts for these, because they are so common, the aftermarket parts seem pretty good - there is usually a big price difference too , espeacially on bigger items like pumps, valves & planetaries.
alrman, I'll try again this is the piston a better veiw of the clutch disc the seal and the rest of the clutch pack You say to build the case back up with stainless, it must be cast iron. Is there any reason that a wire feed welder would not work for this? I'm sorry about the pictures of the valve body but that is the best I can do. Is that iron as well? Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. Jim
I must say jimr, I have seen alot of these, but never one that had a plate or seal look like that! Alot of heat been generated to cause that. Was the belville spring broken? What does the pump look like? There's no reason you can't use a wire feed to weld the housing - really depends on your ability. The valve is mild steel - it could be welded to repair the wear at the tang - I've never done so, but I would not recommend doing anything to the other threaded end.
alrman, there are quite a few blued discs in clutch pack but that one is a beauty isn't it? The belville spring has some minor gaulding near the inside. It actually looks good enough to reuse but so many others have had problems with them replacing it seems the best idea. The pump and for that matter everything else looks perfect. Please let me know if there are thing that sould be replaced just because the time is ripe. The wear on the valve body is very hard to see in my lousy pictures but if you look at the left side of the flat where it meets the shaft you may be able notice a 1/4 inch shiny area. Might be better to try to make the shift lever fit the valve.
The belville spring is included in the rebuild kit - which is quite comprehensive. It is a good idea to flush the cooler before refitting the shuttle. I just use a 20lt drum pump & by making some adaptors, pump some kero through the cooler followed by some clean oil. Catch the fluid as it comes out in a clean container - & see what comes out. Did you drain the convertor? Not alot of $$ to get it overhauled while the shuttle is out - will make the repair a little closer to 100%.
alrman, I was looking at broken tractor for aftermarket parts they have a couple of different levels for rebuild kits. The first is just seals, o-rings and gaskets, the next has bearings and clutch plates and the next level has the pump too. How happy do you think I should get here? They sell a reman convertor too. I don't know if there is anybody in this area that rebuilds them. I did drain the convertor ....same black stinky fluid as the shuttle but still no grit, pieces or metal. Based on the stall test ( post #15) do you think it is weak?
Seal kit & plates must be fitted without question - Reverse plates rarely ever get fitted, but I see they are included. Bearings are also a no brainer. If you say the pump looks OK - I guess it's up to your purse strings really. The convertor seemed to test OK according to your figures - they are hard to flush out. I would not reuse it without a good flush at least. I generally fit one every rebuild - but I have to if a customer wants warranty on a repair.
jimr, also on the kits they include a bushing for the front cover, if on inspection you replace it, it needs to be honed to fit the input shaft. This can be done at a local machine shop and i carry the unbuilt input shaft and housing there first to get it out of the way. Last time my guy charged $10.00 to fit it, have done it with a brake hone in the feild but it took some time.
sheepfoot,thanks for that information. That is what is so great about HEF, without this resource I would mess this up for sure . Is there a spec for that bushing?
jimr, will check in a bit, got to do the honey do list, ouch!!! have to get back to work.
jimr, checked the spec and it's 1.375-1.376 so it's a close fit, also note the bushing has to be installed like the one removed, you can mark your new one before you press the other out to line it up.
sheepfoot, thanks for the specs. The bushing is 1.377 and the shaft is 1.375 . Up here we call that not too shabby. The surfaces are smooth so I feel okay not replacing this one. Do you think it will last another 26 years?
jimr, it should be good to go that close. I would run it.
Figured I'd share my experiment, maybe it might work for someone esle. The flat where the shift lever sets is rounded on both sides so that the shift lever did not sit tight. I am inculding pictures even though I haven't figured out how to take close ups yet. that is plumbers putty that is stuck on the contol valve body so that no spatter gets on it or the threads. this is the valve body after I gound down the weld so now the lever fits tight to the valve. the other end of the valve body was worn where the detent cam goes so it got the same treatment The putty turned black (but did not catch on fire) right next to the bead and stopped the weld from going anywhere I didn't want it to go. All in all I'm pretty happpy with the way the repair turned out. Jimr
Nice work, every bit will help to put it in the right spot, when are you going to try the lever and housing, need some pic's of that to.
sheepfoot, thanks. Hopefully Wednesday I'll get to the housing. I'm glad you brought it up though, I'm assuming that the stop for the lever on the housing is supposed to be straight. In post #23 of this thread the last pic is shows the way that the stop is curved with a hook on the right side. At least that was my intention. I appologize for blurry pics.Jimr
alrman, I didn't mean to disrespect you by welding on the threaded end, I just counldn't help myself. The way that shift lever flopped around on that valve body drove me crazy! It was either a successful repair or a new one. I'm planning on pulling the T/C and flushing the oil cooler Wednesday too. Thursday is supposed to be Christmas..... all the parts to put this back together will be here! Jimr
No worries jimr, my main concern was whether the heat may distort that shiny bore & cause the plunger to bind & give the valve more reason to leak oil ......
Well, there was a little time to work on the shuttle yesterday so this is the result. used stainless stell wire per alrman to lay a couple small beads on the flat for the control valve stop then ground the beads back flat not too pretty but I think it will work forward postition lever in reverse position. If I have messed this up I guess I'll have to adjust the stop positions by working on the lever because I don't know how to be sure until it is back in the tractor.:beatsme Jimr
jimr, I would take the time and install the mounting cover for the switch and detent, put some grease on the spring and ball and install the detent plate. This will give you the three detent spots, as you can rotate the valve f/r into the detent and check the stops against the lever to see if you need more or less work on them. This needs to be done before the install if possible and not in the machine. The lever should just slide in place in the foward, then when moved to the reverse just slide on also. Note the end cap can go on three differant way's so look for the neutral switch detent spot and line up on it.
sheepfoot, I had not thought of that. That is a great idea! There is a new detent on order because there is so much wear on the old one but I'm sure it would still be good enough to feel where it is supposed stop. The repair is not really as rough as it looks in the pics, I'm just a really lousy photographer. Jimr
A camera needs a "Macro" mode to take real closeup pictures. Some go as low as even 1" maybe. Lots of camers will not focus if the subject is less than 12"-24".
Bowen, thanks that is another good idea I had not thought of, blame the camera . Mine has a picture of a flower and says its for closeups 5point something inches away, but you are right on with the distance. The camera has to be a foot and half away and then it focuses on whatever instead of what you want a picture of . I wondered how you guys get those really nice closeups. If all of the picture taking was not already done I would think about getting a new camera. Thanks again to all who have hepled me with this project. The real fun is about to begin as the rebuild kit arrived yesterday. Will be back with more pleas for help. Jimr
Thought I'd update this thread for anyone that might be following along. Yesterday was the day.... shuttle assembly it went pretty well and is all together except for the control valve. Its seems that the clip ring for the neutral cutout end is not included in the "master rebuild kit":beatsme I had installed the old one to protect the groove when I built the flats for the shift lever up with some weld. So now I'll have to go to Case on Monday to order a new one before the shuttle can be finished Its frustrating to be this close to having a backhoe that actually goes forward and have to wait to finish the project:sleeping The only thing that was a real bugger was the clip for input shaft in front of the front bearing. If any of you have advice or have figured out a trick to install those I would sure like to hear it. I finally drilled holes in the ends so I could use snap ring pliers to expand it enough to go over the shaft. Jimr
Not sure what clip you're working with jimr, is it a retaining ring with angled ends similar to this?
If you drilled holes in the circlip (well done!) you used circlip pliers to install. Snap ring pliers are made flat to do the job. - I've never had trouble fitting ang snap ring on a shuttle, but if I didn't have a pair of these, it may be different.
willie59, yes that is the offender. Alrman those are exactly what I needed. I went to the closest tool emporium ( in a town not too far away) and they had a whole wall of circlip pliers, which I already have and have been calling snap ring pliers, but they had no idea what I was talking about in describing the snap ring. They thought that the ends had broken off and I was too dumb to notice.... well, I might have to give them that one I would ask where you got those so the next time I'm in Australia...... Jimr
I'm sure you can find something to do the job over there. You will probably need to look at 'good' name brands to find them eg. knipex; snap on; mac etc http://www.mactools.com/shoponline/product/tabid/120/p-319700-lock-ring-pliers.aspx
This is the pliers I have, Snap-on SRP2. Solid forged steel, don't bend a bit, spreads retaining rings wide, has dimple in nose to grip rings with angled points.
willie59, those look really nice! It sure would have made my shuttle project go alot easier. I'd have to jump through a few hoops to get in touch with the top shelf tool guys. Hopefully I got the shuttle put back together right and won't need a pair but I'll keep my eye out for them anyway. Next time I'm over by that tool shop where I was asking about these I'll make the sales guy get out the catalog and look! Thanks again to you and alrman for your help.
Ebay jimr. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/SNAP-ON-SNA...ols&hash=item35bcc5a90a&vxp=mtr#ht_500wt_1156 You can find retaining ring pliers of this sort at a number of suppliers, even Sears/Craftsman. But what I've seen of other brands compared to this Snap-on plier, the Snappy spreads the ring farther than the other brands. Sometimes that little bit more spread makes all the difference in the world working with retaining rings.
wille59, I never thought of ebay ointhead If Sears has them I'm In luck, there's one pretty close. I did a Google search on these clips trying to find a source for pliers and found disscusion on an engineering forum that explained in detail how remove them with a couple screwdrivers...nothing about how to install them. Between the engineers and the tool sales guy I figured I was on my own. The rest of the parts are supposed to come today, so maybe I'll get the shuttle back in tomarrow.
jimr, you won't be near as happy with the results from the Craftsman pliers as opposed to those Snap-on pliers. When your installing/removing big retaining rings, other pliers get "real close" to spreading the ring enough to get it out of the groove, but just needs a leeeetle bit more, then POP, the ring snaps of the pliers. Growl, attempt again. Those Snappy pliers spread farther than most other brands I've worked with.
willie59, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the people like you and alrman that take your time to share your wealth of experience with the rest of us. I'm sure I would have never attempted this shuttle rebuild without the knoweldge that there was somewhere to get answers. I'll get the snap-on pliers and save myself the agrivation of having to throw away the craftsmans first. Thanks again,Jimr.
As long as you get the job done, makes our day jimr.
I can finaly let you all know that, after nearly two weeks of chasing out of production parts since my last post, the shuttle is back in and working:bouncegri I have to say I'm surprised at how positve forrward engagment is. I guess that means that the shuttle has not been healthy for as long as I've owned this machine. Thanks again to all those who helped me get through this. Jimr
Thats good news!