I got a 6640 gehl with 4600hrs. duetz bf4m2011 my issue is, I am having long crank times to get it started. itll smoke a thick white smoke then give it some air preheater then crank some more and itll eventually start. once it is running you can shut it off and itll start perfect when warm. the dealer did the following: set injection pump timing on all pumps all filters battery lift pump verified the preheater works. They are now thinking low compression. didn't do a compression test yet. It burns no oil in 100hr oil changes. has good power, does smoke alitte when running brush mower attachments. Any other suggestions. I am having a hard time thinking is rebuild time with how well this engine runs. I can set the oil filler cap on top and crankcase pressure wont blow it off. thanks for your help.
Are you plugging it in to warm it up? My Gehl with a Deutz is a cold blooded beast. Even plugged in I usually have to cycle the preheat at least twice and it still is cranky. The other day I let one of my heaters blow in the engine compartment for about 15 minutes and it seemed to help. This extreme cold has made mine worse than normal.
Curious as to what she'll do if you cold start it on ether or WD40? I have a 5640e that would make a ridiculous ruckus on a cold start because it only had one glow plug working. Changed them out and what a difference. I've had other 5640's that only had the pre heater in the intake manifold and they would start well without a ruckus in the cold.
curious but how does a block heater work on a deutz? i have a few of them and never even crossed my mind to plug them in.... what does the heater heat ?? pj
I think I'd pull the injectors out and have them tested before I condemn the engine for an overhaul.
If it has a block heater, I cant find it anywhere. If I park it in the shop overnight and have the temp at 50 degrees, itll start a tad easiers but still tons of white cranking smoke. This engine has a manifold heater, no glow plugs. I started it once with ether and it starts right away. But I dont like using either on diesels so I stay away from it. I am thinking about have the injectors tested while I have them out for a compression test. what makes you think injectors, I am not questioning your idea, just trying to learn as much as I can about these duetz. Thanks
I was thinking injectors too.. If the nozzles aren't seating properly, the fuel in the lines will leak past the "pintle" and drip onto the piston overnite.. hence the white smoke.. unburnt fuel.. PLUS.. its easy and cheap..lol
I've had 6 or 7 of the Gehl's with the Deutz oil cooled. I wouldn't take it as gospel that your manifold heater is working correctly just because the dealer said it was. Take it out and hook it up to a 12v jumper pack...should get very hot. My friend has a Gehl w/ deutz and has almost 6k hrs. on it (he's owned since new). His manifold heater went out years ago and he squirts it with a small amount of ether in cold weather with no ill effects. I don't like ether either, but he does it. He's never replaced injectors as far as I know. I'd check the heater, and pour a bunch of Seafoam in the tank to clean your injectors.
No definitive reason I suggested testing injectors, it's just that a diesel engine needs three things to run, air fuel and compression, a lack of any of these three will cause problems, and as pumpguysc stated, it's typically easy and cheap to test injectors.
I ordered new sealing washers for the injectors. ill then pull them and check for compression, and test injectors. anyone know where to get a comp tester adapter or this engine, I only have air cooled adapters. thanks
I don't know that I would bother with compression test just yet. Have your injectors tested by an injection shop. If they test good, you're out little money and know to investigate further. If they're bad, that could be your problem. Besides, if in the end it turns out to be poor compression, you're talking engine overhaul. If that were the case, you'd go through the injectors anyway, so your really out nothing having them tested and/or replaced.
Totally concur. The lingering white smoke is a dead giveaway. You are over-fueling. If the pumps have been calibrated and the timing checks good there are only two things left: 1) Badly worn injectors (most likely from dirty fuel). 2) Restricted air cleaner (not enough air for the quantity of fuel).
dont want to de-rail the post but again, what does the block heater do on a duetz? pj
Well I didn't hear back on the injectors yet. But either way I am going to order a set. it wont hurt to put them in. like what was said, it might fix it, or ill want them anyways when I go to rebuild the engine. not all duetz are air cooled. this one is oil cooled and there are water cooled also
Would I be safe just ordering a new nozzle, since that will have the pintle also and that's the most likely culprit?
Don't throw away your money.. just pull them and have them checked.. and while you have them out, see if the inj. shop will let you borrow a compression checker. .. they may loan you an adaptor to go into the cylinder but you'll have to supply the guage.. If you turn wrenches on your engines a lot, you can get a whole diesel compression kit from northern tool or harb. frt for around 100.00 and it comes w/ a guage. As far as ordering new nozzles go's.. you'll have to remove the bottom nut on the injector to find out the correct noz. # for your equip. I DONT recommend doing this tho.. as they have tiny pins inside to align the nozzle to the body and a special tool [rig] is required.. otherwise they will break. Best to leave it to the pro's.
The magnetic type block heater works well on all engines no matter the cooling type. And he is correct, not all Duetz engines are air cooled. I ran a pair of 1,100 HP Deutz 620 V-16's back in '89. They were liquid cooled.
I have a deutz engine in my holder that I use with a snow blower it sits in a shop without heat. 0w40 oil has helped cranking speed. I cover it with a tarp and use a diesel kerosene heater. I just picked up a 500watt adhesive oil pan heater. that way I should be able to plug it in overnight and just start up in the morning. I did not want a strap on type as I was concerned with a fire.. these adhesive heaters have built in thermostats. I would also suggest that your injectors have a poor spray pattern. overfuelling.
I hate to bring up a old thread. But it is a issue that has never been completely resolved. To refresh, my issue is that's it'll crank awhile before putting out white smoke. Then it's a thick heavy white smoke. After you preheat again it'll sputter to life. And clear up with no smoke while running. The pumps all been calibrated last yr along with new injectors, battery, filters. The dealer is now saying it's probably the fuel rack sticking. So what can be done to get it to move freely again?
There are a lot of variables here that need to be isolated.. Looking back I see where you had the pumps AND inj. done.. What was the outcome on the injectors? replaced tips? What is the fuel pressure? is the lift pump working properly? is it bleeding back down or holding pressure when you shut off the machine? You can find the answer by installing a clear plastic/rubber line between the lift pump and the inj. pump inlet.. when its running the line will be full of fuel, when you shut it down for the evening and come back to it, it still should have fuel in the line.. a slight air bubble is acceptable but if its empty you found a problem.. Not saying that's your entire problem but a problem never the less.. Does the machine have an electric shut off on it?? they are notorious for sticking.. Does the machine have automatic shut downs on it?? oil pressure, temp, over speed?? could be it wont allow fuel to the pumps until it reads oil pressure?? hence the long cranking time.. I've seen some Deutz engines the have an electric sh/off device AT THE lift pump.. it shuts off the fuel TO THE lift pump if no oil pressure is being monitored.. there for shutting down the engine.. A sticking rack is not out of the question but can be determined by removing the electr. s/off, if so equiped and reaching in the hole and pushing/pulling the rack.. it should move with very minimal force.. and return to its travel on it own spring force.. I find in my experience, that a stuck rack is either a "bent" rack or sticking inj. pump rack.. Once you determine IT IS a sticking rack by manually moving it.. you can find which one by removing the pumps 1 at a time and manually moving the rack each time.. I hope this helps.. TPG
Thanks, I will go put a clear line on now. The skid loader is parked in a heated shop. I forgot to mention it has a new lift pump also. Last month I put a glow plug update kit. That added a second glow and a larger relay. The results from that is a dead battery sooner. It is a electronic fuel switch. I can hear it clicking when I turn the key to "run". The skid steer has indicator lights for over temp and oil pressure. But they don't shut the engine down. The dealer had the pumps off and said they moved the rack by hand and it was moving. But they also think it could be the root of this problem. I'll go do that clear fuel line now.
Thanks, I will go put a clear line on now. The skid loader is parked in a heated shop. I forgot to mention it has a new lift pump also. Last month I put a glow plug update kit. That added a second glow and a larger relay. The results from that is a dead battery sooner. It is a electronic fuel switch. I can hear it clicking when I turn the key to "run". The skid steer has indicator lights for over temp and oil pressure. But they don't shut the engine down. The dealer had the pumps off and said they moved the rack by hand and it was moving. But they also think it could be the root of this problem. I'll go do that clear fuel line now.
After an hour of trying to get this engine running. I can not get it to bleed all the air out of the line. I put the clear line in from the fuel filter to the first injection pump. The line is about half full of diesel. It'll start sputter and then shut off. I bled all of the injectors more then once. Just can get it to fill that line completely. Maybe my new lift pump isn't good?
Loosen the inlet bolt on the LAST PUMP and try to get the air out that way.. The air SHOULD RUSH to the loosened bolt and the line SHOULD FILL with fuel almost as soon as the engine is spun.. IF it doesn't, you found a problem.. NO FUEL, NO START.. and the white smoke is air in the fuel..
Thanks I am trying that now
Alright just to make sure I am not screwing this up. The inlet banjo bolt is the one that us horizontal on the pump. There is one on the top. I am assuming that the return. And down on the block beneath the pumps there is a smaller line and banjos. I don't know what that one is for. But it also has a fuel filter going to it.
You have a "feed line" to the first pump, then a jumper line to each of the others, that get their fuel off the "feed line"?? Just loosen the last banjo bolt [inlet fuel] at the last pump. Any chance to snap a pic. of your set-up??
I can't get it to upload. Probably because I am on the phone.
I got it to prime. There was a small inline filter at the fuel tank. I never seen it before. So I replaced that and it primed. Hopefully it'll hold prime and that filter was the issue
Good for you... Let us know tomorrow if it holds fuel in the clear line and fires up..
Yes I definitely will let you know. Thanks again for your help
I got a Bobcat T200 with a Duetz oil cooled. About 2 years ago I had a real problem with it. You can check my post on what I went through and Wille probably remembers it. I had a bad injector on the #1 cylinder and the nozzle was peeing on the outside of the piston and it burnt the piston and scored the cylinder wall. Dealer said that only 1 out of 10 survives a boring and sleeving.. It was going to cost me $4500.00 for a rebuild or $6500.00 for a new engine. I replaced the engine with a Bobcat Reman complete with turbo and had to replace the radatior. It started smoking other day the same way with about 600 hrs on this engine and I pulled all the injector and had Testmaster inn Savannah Ga. rebuild them for peace of mind. It still doing the smoking. Somebody told me that that Duetz Oil Cooled Charactristic . I just couldn't take chance of another bad injector ruin a engine. If it sits for a period of time water/condensation build up and it may be moisture residue burning off. Just my thought. After a while running it stops smoking.
as soon as my loader starts it doesn't smoke any. It's just cranking puts out a constant white grey smoke. Then You Stop Re Preheat again and it starts. The cleat line was completely full yet this morning. Still wouldn't start without the long cranks and preheat. It's in the heated shop also.
makes you wonder if your valve/belt timing is slightly off
I thought about that, but wouldn't that cause it to be low on power?
Alright update on today's progress. I pulled out the shutdown solenoid and the rack moves freely by hand. The solenoid also works properly. so I feel confident that we can rule out a fuel issue. Which now makes me think it's alow compression, valve, timing or something else.
WOW.. Sounds like your really attacking this machine.. Good for you.. I got the same machine in the shop today w/ a NO START condition.. 1st thing I did was charge the battery.. check the fuel pressure to the pumps.. verified the fuel was getting TO THE injectors by loosening the line AT THE inj.. ALL GOOD.. THEN.. I removed an inj. and hooked it up to the line, outside the engine, to see if it would POP the inj.. guess what?? IT DIDNT.... BAD PUMPS.. did a compression check.. ALL cyl. ok.. BUT the pumps were bad.. I would do a compression test for your complaint..
I am working on trying to get a hold of a compression tester. What's the specs for compression of this engine?
A simple thing like a timing belt tensioner could be giving up...not sure you'd notice that much loss of power. If my memory is correct, cylinder compression should be around 400 psi???
Is this the engine model you have? http://www.deutzpartsdirect.com/Documents/deutz-specs/deutz-1011-specs.pdf If so, you can find the cylinder psi with the compression ratio. Might be approx 270 psi, if I did it right.
I have a bfg m 211 engine. http://www.deutzpartsdirect.com/Documents/deutz-specs/deutz-m2011-construction-specs.pdf They use the same compression adapters tho.
Oops, I meant bf4m2011
Just an update while I am waiting for my compression adapter to come. I figured it wouldn't hurt to throw a new timing belt on the machine. I didn't know when it was last done either and was hoping it might fix the starting issue. Of course it didn't fix it and the timing belt was new. It had all the lettering on the smooth side yet. I put the new belt and tensioner on and timed it with the pins. I Also pulled the injectors again. To check to see if any of them were showing signs of leaking overnight. All where dry but heavily carboned up.
Took long enough, but I got the compression adapter. my readings in psi are 390,410,400,390. so they are all in spec. It was late last night so I didn't get to finish but I did a leak down test on cylinder 4 and got 62% leak and it sounds like its into the crankcase. So I am going to test the other three cylinders today and see what outcome I get. As of now its looking like a rebuild is in the future.
I don't know your machine but with those numbers a diesel engine shouldn't need a rebuild.
Hi 6640Gehl, I read the topic, now i have the same engine builtin my Shovel . It's a Weidemann 300 bj 2004. I had this thick white smoke and it started very poorly. I took it to the shop and they found the problem. This type of engine has four fuel pumps instead of one. Now one of the fuel pumps whas broken, so they get a spare. They changed the bad fuel pump and problem was solved. Only three turns and there it goes.! ;-) You might want to check those first before rebuilding the engine. Good luck, From the Netherlands
its a weidemann 3006..
My engine with put out a heavy white smoke for about 30seconds of cranking. Then it'll just fire up and run prefect. Now that it is warm out its actually getting worse then in winter. Is that how your engine was?
No, My engine didn't start at all. Now it only cranks three or four times and then it runs. It does smoke a litlle bit just after starting the engine, but when it runs for a minute or so, the smoke is gone.!
Hi there Pumpguy i got an 4840 gehl new to this forum. i bought this machine about two months ago and on cold starts it smokes alot of white heavy unburnt fuel for about depending how cold it is outside it can burn white for at least 4 to 12 min and seems to miss fire sometimes and when i slowly rev it up 500rpm above idle it still has heavy white smoke! when engine is warm it runs like a top no smoke what so ever! machine has 1300hr on it! is this normal for a 2011 3.1L non turbo 60hp Deutz motor?
Its ALWAYS best to check the fuel pressure 1st.. U might have a leak back problem & its just air working its way thru the system.?? "I" would T in a gauge, run it & check the INLET fuel pressure, THEN, let it sit overnite.. look at the gauge & see how long it takes for the pressure to come-up.. It works BEST w a CLEAR hose.. U want to see the pressure rising w/ every rotation of the engine.. IF not, replace the supply pump.. If that doesnt help, the NEXT BEST THING is getting the injectors checked/rebuilt...Dont buy them off the web.. U have no idea what your getting.. BEFORE u pull them out.. TAKE NOTE on which way they go in.!!! Some will allow u to put them in BACKWARDS, & THAT fks EVERTHING up.!! The spray pattern isnt hitting the top of the piston correctly & it'll white smoke like a "skeeter" truck.. Good luck.
thank you so much for your help i will eventually check the fuel pressure and i will let you know! btw if i did leave it the way it is now, would it put alot of wear on the injectors and other parts?
Well.. the starter is taking a beating.. the batteries too.. IF its a supply problem.. the fuel is draining back.. the pumps rely on the fuel for lubrication.. No fuel = no lube..
ok perfect thanks so much for your time! really appreciate it!
Friend of mine has a 5635 that had similar symptoms (hard starting and lots of white smoke on start up). It took a while to find the problem. His partner had changed the fuel filter and did not remove the inner seal (the one that goes around the center threaded nipple). He installed a new filter and then had two inner seals stacked. After removing the "extra" seal, the engine was much happier.