Please Don't shoot me for asking a question about a 4500 TLB that might have been discussed several times over in previous threads..... I am not too familiar with the inner workings of Any kind of "Forums" and how to go about using them in a proficient manner for all. I have just purchased a '67 +/- 4500 TLB with quite a few problems, and she looks about as good as she runs... But, I love old machines, and Will get her back on her feet. We (my 80 year old father and I) have gone over her entire steering, bushings, linkage, etc. and then moved onto the engine which was "running" on ether help only, which we remedied with a lot of leak fixes and injector pump settings, (she has one low cylinder, that's another Day/weeks project)… And then we moved on to the "shuttle shift" that would go into forward every time without hesitation. But would only go into reverse if you played with it long enough, and not every time. Which brings me to the question at hand.... we decided to give her the dreaded "Split" .... which really wasn't all that bad, we have many years experience on automotive repairs and were not too afraid of splitting her. And we are down to replacing all the clutch plates, and after cleaning them and inspecting the forward gear piston we noticed some small cracks just behind the groove the o-ring sits in.... it "looks" like it would hold up, but for how long.... I found the part # C5NN7A258A on the New Holland Parts Online #19 on the diagram. However it seems it cannot be purchased it seems from Anywhere.... So I am in hopes of someone possibly knowing where I could get a used one from.....? I would/will send a picture of the cracks I am talking about, if I knew How to add a picture to this thread, LOL, it took me quite a lot just to figure out how to simply get this far......
Welcome to HEF, Sasquatch ! Go here to learn how to post an image on HEF. ----> HeavyEquipmentForums Videos cannot be hosted on HEF. Posting a link to host like Utube can be done tho.
Thank You Tinkerer.... I couldn't find that way. did this work by chance??
Check out post #29 on this thread. Very similar looking. You can read what I did with mine. HeavyEquipmentForums
JL Sargent, we were hoping they were casting flaws... but you can make them move if you push hard enough with your thumb. We thought about having them repaired/welded but it is just too delicate of an edge, and would need to be done by a swiss clock maker or diamond setter......so, we hoping for one with 2" of dust on it sitting on a shelf somewhere... OR we are going to go back in with it and hope for the best.
https://www.messicks.com/nh/58290?sectionId=22587&diagramId=58290_396533 They appear to have one at a pretty good price
The link above is for a 555a New Holland. Is that the same as a 1967 +/- Ford 4500 ? That is what he said he has. https://partstore.construction.newh...d1b41773c&sl=EN¤cy=#epc::mr85073ag22053 That part number comes in a search as clutch. ??? Hmmmm
Here is the Other problem... which one is the correct one to order from the link (thank you Jonas302) #19 or #19.1 ?
The one to the left of the diagram looks like the one I need, because the center tapers out just like that, BUT its not labeled 19 or 19.1.....lol, I love the confusion. and yes I believe they are the same ones as the 4500, because the part #s match to my manuals also...
And sorry for the time delay...I was out cleaning up the tools from todays adventure....
19 matches the part # you gave I would give them a call and see if they can help figure that out and if its actually available
The Old Girl deserves to work easy for the rest of her days, I just want to bring her back to the best I can. She is going to help clear 2-3 acres in nice soft sand... She'll look nice parked next to my '68 Ford Camper Special f250. My friend tried to get me to buy a Kubota... I laughed loud and strong.
I have never even seen the other part # before until now.....D9NN7A258AA - 19.1... So I guess I will have to call for sure. Thank You for all..... will let you know what I find, except tomorrow is Saturday, will they answer...
Call Alexander's Tractor Parts. They should be able to supply a good used one. I want to say they're available new aftermarket but I have to think about it. https://www.alexanderstractorparts....n-parts.html?filter_catid=139&search=&sortby=
Thank you Check Break.... I do like their Torque Converter Kit w/ pump and seals !!! I shall give them a call also.
In addition to replacing "all" seals in the shuttle, check out this pin. Wear prevents full actuation of the valve. https://www.messicks.com/nhc/85073 (03) Transmission. (07U01) - TORQUE CONVERTER - TRANSMISSION CASE & RELATED PARTS - 3500, 3550, 4410, 4500 . Part No. 23. You might want to take a read through these posts. Your transmission is the same. HeavyEquipmentForums I still haven't figured out who was selling aftermarket pistons. They rarely fail. Alexanders should have a used one. Check your clutch drum carefully for cracks between the snap ring groove and the outside edge. Check the snap rings. I replace them as they can fail after thousands of hours of service ruining your new rebuild. Clean the cooler. Like any other transmission rebuild, it harbors deposits related to failure. Otherwise, the Iowahill thread has a lot of caveats to consider on the teardown and rebuild.
I did take notice of the linkage and it does engage fully in both directions... that pin #23 looks in good condition. I believe this Old Girl has been down this road before, and certain things have been replaced along the way. For instance the 3 different friction clutch plates out of the total 12... oh, And the transfer tube/pipe that was laying down on the bottom of the housing below the pick up screen... (which could explain why it was over filled, to keep her cool because it wasn't going up to the cooler/radiator) cooler has been cleaned and tested for leaks. All info will be looked at, as soon as I pry myself from the toolbox and grime... I will be looking at that 555 link you attached, along with calling Alexanders.... Thanks Again
Sounds like the previous wrench was a bit of an animal. Transfer tube on the bottom of the case is a new one that I can't get my head around yet. A manual will help if you don't already have one but I think you're ahead of the game. That tractor will outlast you if you put her back together right which it sounds like you're doing. A little care and attention along the way will protect your investment. Hope you got her for a reasonable price. I wouldn't worry about asking questions that may have been asked before. They revive old brain cells in people like me and many others. If you are a picture taker, take a few and post them up. They will help others following in your footsteps.
Ugh...my eyes hurt, LOL... that was a long read ( well, for me) I'm more hands on. None the less that was full of info, and looks Very similar to my adventure on my 4500... The differences that I am seeing is the Piston Shapes. I will send pics of what I mean. I just looked back, DUH I already attached them...you see my quandary, both of Iowahill's pistons are the same, where I have two different shaped pistons as I do different shaped drum internals...( those pics will come) Also I got Much Excited (proper English?) when I seen the Seal Kit he was able to get for $90 !!! However, when I entered the part number 502250 or 45-502250 on Josephs website, I got "No Records Returned" I have yet to call anyone, bizzy bizzy bizzy
this is the front (forward) side of the drum with tapered bottom to receive the matching piston taper...
hard to see without me pointing an arrow at it, but I not smart that away yet
where the back/ reverse side does not have the tapered bottom, nor does the piston.... so my question would be, why is mine different than Iowahill's… Or has this thing been possibly been hodge-podged together over the years. We never really did hear its history except that it was used mostly for industrial purposes.
Also, in these two pics you can see where the bushing appears to be offset slightly, where the holes do not match up, and on the flip side of the drum, they don't match up at all.... my assumption is that behind the bushing is a void so that you don't have to line up the holes.....yes/no?
Theses are just pics of the different friction plates and to me, excessive wear on the darker ones... Also the Steel clutch plates on the Reverse side, 2 of them were installed backwards. As per my manual states, - All steel plates MUST be installed cup-side outwards. (I think they were trying to save a buck, and too many hands on the rebuild in a hurry). and go figure, Reverse was the sucker that wasn't working correctly....hmmmmm
this is just a pic of why I think the transfer tube was laying on the bottom... it was loose almost hanging out, somebody must have looked in there and then the tube fell out. and they quickly decided to abandon splitting just for a silly little tube...lol And I hope that temp sensor works, cause they are $100 i will check it later,or find another way to read temps
this is the condition of the mentioned pin that sometimes has wear, making for sloppy linkage forward/reverse completing the engagement to the valve.
just a couple more pics of the condition of what is beyond the drum assembly... And what I'm using in manuals
if there is anything that I should be paying closer attention to, would you please point them out... as for now, I'm side-stepping to the backhoe hydraulics and labeling/ removing some hoses....quite fun all Crammed up under the seat !
Also, look at this beauty... found it half torn open and missing the fine mesh that went over the screen. you can kind of see little edges of the mesh on one side of the screen. and yet none of this missing piece is anywhere to be found... leads me to believe this puppy was split maybe more than once....
Well... I called Alexanders and Messicks….and no luck on finding even a NEW piston.... I get a lil weezy thinking about just putting that piston back as is....Also I sent them the pics of how I have 2 different piston shapes, at that was a head scratcher for them as well.
You can't put it back if it's cracked. I looked around online. Like you said, new ones are very elusive if they're out there. I don't remember two different pistons in the clutch drum pre 3/81 and when they changed, both changed. Woe is me, the late pistons are definitely NLA and I don't think I have any spares. The problem is they never wore out so Ford quit making them. May have to be machined. Bellcrank pin looks good. Pickup screen may be unobtainum also so you may have to rebuild. The bushing in the clutch drum is shot. I can't explain why the holes don't line up which leads me to another rabbit hole. For a very long time I have suspected that Ford used parts in these shuttles that were common to other transmissions. I just haven't had the need or time to figure it out. I'm wondering if the prior wrench used a drum that looked like it would work, or maybe worked for a while. Maybe it never had reverse after the last rebuild. I kind of remember that's what happens if you install a late model drum in an early transmission. You don't have any history on that tractor so you don't know what some animal may or may not have done. I for one would compare that clutch drum to the one that's supposed to be in there and if it's not right, change it out and not look back. Unfortunately, the only one I have in my parts inventory is post 3/81 and the earlier one I have is still in the 3550 awaiting attention. There are lots of wrecking yards in the USA but it will take time to find them. You might try these guys and ask them to send you pictures (front back and side) if they have one. They won't be cheap. MYERS WARD TRACTOR, 131 W Riverdale Ave., Riverdale, CA 93656 800-344-9494. If they have the clutch drum, they should have pistons. You need the early drum. The late one won't work. Now for more bad news. You have to keep digging. The rear input shaft has to come out (4 bolts). You can see what I'm talking about in the Iowahill thread. The good news is you're almost there. Fortunately Ford made a lot of those shuttles so used parts are out there. Cost is the problem.
Another problem I forgot to mention. Those screws in the clutch drum don't look right. Yet another reason to wonder if that's the wrong drum. A good source of info is Bern over on the Yesterday's Tractors Ford forum. You might post up your drum pictures with an explanation of how you got to this point and ask if anyone recognizes your clutch drum and pistons. Might provide the info you need to keep moving forward.
I went back and looked at his pictures of his drum, and I see that it appears to be a one piece unit, (no screws/bolts)… and we thought the bushing looked pretty good no play on the shaft when we were taking it off... So, if I can get a drum with springs and pistons attached/ without plates, is probably my better bet? and I'm guessing you want me to go deeper just to see condition of the bearing on the rear input shaft? now I noticed Iowahill's drum is different, but is that because it is an '81, and we're comparing apples to oranges with my older one.... even though I believe he mentioned he needed 12 discs per side and not 10.
well, since they don't open until 8...I sent them an email with my hopes attached... clearly my email will be promptly addressed LOL.... and I have an email going out wide through Allstate Ag instead of calling 14 separate salvage places... again CLEARLY my emails will Not be erased "accidently" ….right?
The bushing has wear (scratches). It may not seal completely. Yes, a complete drum without frictions and steels would be better as you'd know the parts were correct. As far as you're in, it would be a mistake not to check the idler bearing and rear shaft bearing, especially given what you're facing now. Iowahill's shuttle is a parts lesson that was previously lost to history. His transmission was built in 2/81 and his 555 in 3/81. The shuttle changed in 3/81, but I couldn't remember if the transmission build date or tractor build date was dispositive. Now we know it's the transmission date. You and Iowahill both have the early shuttle.
Well 1 of the 3 emails has backed out... no luck with Allstate Ag. Being I have Extra time waiting on emails/ return calls, I can dive into the bearing conditions... It just tickles me to think/ believe that with Thousands of this type bird that were made over a 10 year span, and other models with the same guts, that it wouldn't be so difficult to find some parts. Now I know its not like a '67 ford truck, and this is One little old thread, but it seems even the people that do this salvage thing for a living are limited to their resources...
All is simply Lovely.... "picture perfect" for 53 years old.... now for the gasket kit to arrive so I can change out the o rings/oil rings...
Just another thought to think of...in a 1970 4500, the clutches and some other internal parts interchanged with a Ford automatic transmission, I think it was a C6, but maybe an FMX, or both. It's been 20 years, so I don't remember what all interchanged, but I know for sure the clutches did.
If I remember correctly, one of the C-6 plates is the same, but I don't remember if it's friction or steel. Just for laughs I looked around for a used clutch drum this morning. There's one on eBay that pops up in a number of places. Looks like it's out of a Select-o-Speed but there's differences between it and the 4500 drum. Yet, both have the same part number. I don't know if they'll interchange and didn't check the drum internals to see if they're the same as the 4500. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-NewHo...er-C5NN7B449A-B-Shaft-C5NN7C094-/132958149085
Yes, she looks good behind the input shaft. The last guy probably didn't tear her down that far so the day turned out good afterall.
Give these guys a call and see what they have left. They're dismantling a couple of early shuttles. https://www.crosscreektractor.com/ There's this on Atlanta CL but there's no way to know whether the clutch drum is good without taking it apart. https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/grd/d/cleveland-65-ford-3500-industrial/7071711020.html
Wowza….. $760 for a maybe fit.... for that price I may have one made Lol. I just got off the phone with CrossCT and he said nothing new or old... and suggested Brokentractor.com which I just left another email with inquiry. The craigslist guy explained he didn't want to part her out so much as package deal... If I find some, I'm buying them all and giving them away to whoever needs one, cause oh my goodness !!! Thanks Again Check Break !!
WOOHOO.....!!!! After my 15th Email across this half of the world, I got a bite !!! brokentractor.com says they have a Piston to match my request...$140.... I have asked them to send me a couple pictures to verify the same and condition......Fingers Crossed
Well...It seems to be a Good One, no cracks that I can see. I have asked him to give a second check for that. Other than that a simple light polishing and I am good to go..... Huge Sigh of Relief
I take it BT didn't have a clutch drum. We're still hoping your drum is correct and only the 80+ yo Ford parts guy knows for sure.
I cant Believe your questioning the Last Wrench that took the time to separate and put together a quality filled transmission. …… it seems I'm going to have to trust its ability to work "flawlessly" unless I want to pay over $800 for a used part that just may have more flaws than where I stand now..... and of course the No Return Policy that seems to be a business standard now, helped me decide! Not to mention I really don't wish to have shelves full of useless parts, and a career on ebay trying to unload them lol...
WAIT !!!! So your saying you Know this 80 yo Guy....can I have his phone # ?!?!.....
I tried to find him a couple of months ago but no one knows where he is or if he's still alive. I still think you should start a thread on Yesterday's Tractors. There's a couple of guys there who might be able to ID your clutch drum. The bottom line is this, if she doesn't work, you're going to have to split her and take her down again.
I just placed my ad-ver-tice-ment on Yesterdays Tractor Forum ….. My seal kit 45-502250 just came in so something for the days fun....
Well it seems I have stumped Yesterdays Tractor.... 44 views of my forum pics/question about the drum, and no bites. Maybe its time to change the bait, lol
I ordered some replacement brass screens, and made it happen... Saved over $100 .... That will go towards maybe some new piston rings !
I hate to say this, because I don't have an original to look at, but before you put her back together, you need to be sure that brass screen will flow enough oil to keep the transmission from starving. The original screen was steel, spot welded in place. Just another animal sign that needs interpretation. I want to say that screen won't flow enough oil and the pump might collapse her, leaving you with no effective screen and another potential mess but this picture I robbed from another thread may show differently.
My fault.....I thought I put this picture up on here..... This is what was spot welded originally..... Its brass(non magnetic) and two layers...one thick mesh, and the over layer very fine mesh..... Even finer than what i was able to buy......
Its hard to tell from that pic....but it is super fine mesh (whats left of it on the two edges)
To me you would want a fine mesh screen to keep even the smallest particles from flow through the directional valves and guides, etc.
Well, that picture didn't load correctly. Going to try again.
The pic I posted is a 555 and later screen. Finer mesh, more surface area, so maybe you're good to go with what you have. The screen traps the chunks and small bits. The filter is downstream of the screen and protects the pump/valve, ect. I started out looking for a picture of your steel sealing rings on the rear input shaft and now look what I've done. Still don't have a picture of that shaft.
Yeah I just checked my manual it must be the kind that came with it in that year..... it's roughly 4in by 6in surface area submersed at least 6 in in fluid..... I'll know for sure when I redo the pump test LOL.... and yes I could not find a picture of the sealing rings either but it was the only parts that were left in the seal kit I bought that matched the bottom ring in my picture.... the one below the ridiculous rubber o-ring -which I guess if I lived in Alaska would be okay
Back to the 5/8" sealing rings. Unfortunately I have little recollection of where they go, and remember only that they're fragile. After looking at your picture and the shop manual, my lack of memory makes sense. There's nothing to worry about. Just don't break one on the way back and if you wonder if you broke one, maybe you did so back up and take a look. Spent a few minutes looking at the oil flow diagram in the front input shaft with respect to your o-ring. After cogitating on it a bit, I don't think it's the source of your reverse problem. Seems to me it would affect Forward more than Reverse. Another reason to make sure you blocker valve bores and pins are spotless and the springs aren't broken or out of spec.