Helló srácok, üdvözlet Magyarországról. Van egy 951B és egy 943B rakodógépem. Jelenleg nincs fotóm a 951 B-ről.- Van egy problémám a 943-as géppel, hogy amikor a sebességváltóban lévő olaj felmelegszik, elveszíti teljesítményét és lassú lesz. Tudna nekem segíteni, hogy mi lehet? Természetesen az olajat és az olajszűrőt kicserélték, de nem lett jobb. Ez egy 1986-ban gyártott franciaországi gép, 19Z00530 9466 órával. Előre is köszönöm a segítséget.
Hello cat951b. This forum requires users to converse in English, so you need to translate to English if you wish to receive replies to your query.
Hello guys, greetings from Hungary. I have a 951B loader and a 943B loader. I don't have a photo of the 951 B at the moment.- I have a problem with the 943 machine that when the oil in the gearbox heats up, it loses its performance and becomes slow. Can you help me with what it might be? Of course, the oil and oil filter were replaced, but it did not get better. This is a machine from France produced in 1986 with 19Z00530 9466 hours. Thanks in advance for your help.
Hi Ozdozer. thanks for the information. I'll pay more attention next time.
This needs input from @Cmark who is the resident expert on Cat hydrostatic loaders. I guess my question would be limited to confirming the type and viscosity of oil you are using in the hydrostatic transmission & pump dive.
Greetings Mr. Nige. Cat Transmission Oil TDTO 30W. Filter and oil were changed 03.2023. When the oil is warm, it becomes slightly opalescent - do you infer from this that air can mix with it?!
should be 10wt
Yep. SAE30 is far too heavy. Don’t you have the Maintenance Manual for it.? The hystat transmission and the pump drive box both require SAE 10W hydraulic oil.
OK, then I drain the oil, but my question is that the performance is good when cold, but the oil is even thicker when cold.
Nige, but I have a manual for it. I thought that an older, more worn machine and thicker oil might be better for it.
They don't like thick oil or clogged filters
Not in the case of a hystat transmission it won't. And there is your answer.........
You likely have worn main pumps or main hydraulic motors. When they get worn they bypass more, and this bypass oil heats up very quickly. When the oil heats up it gets thinner and less oil will stay in the pump discharge lines and more will bypass. Any oil that bypasses doesn't do work so the energy in the oil comes out as heat. Its an continuing race to the bottom. Years ago, my dad had an old backhoe that was thrashed and the hydraulic pump was in the same condition. To get any work out of it we had to turn a garden hose onto the pump to they to keep the oil cooled enough to at least allow a bit of digging. We tried thicker oil, too. No help. You are going down the same road. I don't know if Cat puts the filter into the main pressure lines or in the charge pump flows but as others have noted, it is the first thing to check. Cut the filter open and see what you have for metal particles. Check your pump bypass flows when the machine is warmed up. Cat will have a spec on the maximum flow allowed before the pump needs rework. Same with the hydraulic motors. I'm willing to bet that if both tracks exhibit the same slowness when the oil is hot you have a serious problem. Let us know! Good luck, Jon.
Under the valve cover there are metal lines that go to the servos the fittings sometime leak they are like a compression fittings and need replaced I have repaired a few by doing this. It would act up when warm
Greetings, gentlemen. Thanks everyone for the helpful information, I will apply it. I would also wait for Cmark's comments. In a previous post, I read about the left and right valves on the transmission, on which the rubber rings tend to wear out. Unfortunately, I rarely have the opportunity to service this machine because it is on my brother's property 200 kilometers from me. Therefore, the repair time will be delayed.
Then I will definitely change the oil to TDTO 10 W. If the drain screw is on the bottom of the transmission, does the entire amount of oil drain, or does it have to be drained somewhere else, for example from the oil cooler?
Hello John, thanks for the detailed information! - I hope you won't be right! By the way, the machine is in good condition and was previously owned by a regular company where it received proper service. According to my observation, the oil will be warm opalescent, as if there are small bubbles in it (I have to examine this under a microscope), from this I conclude that air is mixed into the oil somewhere and this causes its elasticity. Could there be a leak somewhere?! That is why I would like the opinion of experienced mechanics on where seals and rubber ring wear can occur. Of course, if I manage to find the error, I will report it here!
Hi Dave. Thanks for the information! I'm also guessing some sort of leak. Can you send me a photo and mark the critical places where it might be leaking? Thanks in advance!
I'm not savy enough to do that just pull the big valve cover off the top of transmission and you will see the metal lines they are like 3/8 lines going down each side to the servos
Ok, Thanks Dave!
You may find the attached documents useful. There is a certain amount of duplication in them because one focuses solely on the HPCU and the other one the whole power train but they are both listed for a 19Z machine.
Thank you very much Nige, it will be a good study..
In looking thru the service documents from Nige, I find it quite startling to realize that Cat implements a BUNCH of controls within the pump/drive setup MECHANICALLY. When likely all of the controls could be implemented electronically thru computer control. They must have been designed before the real push to move as much as possible to computer control finally came thru. When did the first Cat hydrostatic crawler loaders hit the market? If they were in the early '80's I can see the reason for all the mechanical monkey motion in the pump controllers. (In 1980 I was fiddling with my first computer that had 8" floppy drives and zeroing sawmill hydraulic setworks servo valves with a nylon allen key because a metal key screwed up the magnetic field in the valve--all stone age electronics) But the mechanical controls sure improved the return for the Cat service people. I'd love to pick up a 955 loader but I'll run away screaming from anything with hydrostatic drive... unless it's fully electronic but then I probably couldn't afford it 'cause its too new... Jon.
Electronic ain't necessarily better. I've got over $60k in 2 separate hydrostat failures, between warranty and me, on our 953C, before it hit 3k hours. Not from electronics, but rather plumbing and parts issues. The plumbing and parts updates should keep it together from here on out. Yet my 943A and 963B just keep soldiering on, with no electronics to speak of.
Hello everyone and I wish you a successful and happy New Year! Between the two holidays, I had time to deal with the above-mentioned machine. Unfortunately, I had a bad experience with it and found broken pieces of the 3rd piston in the oil sump. I am attaching a few photos of him and the wools. After that, I decided to remove the complete engine together with the Hidrostat and renew it...
..Unfortunately, amore had already darkened, I was done with the disassembly and I didn't have time to inspect the engine block in detail to see if wear or a broken piston damaged the cylinder wall. As I already mentioned, the machine is unfortunately 200 kilometers away from me, so I rarely have the opportunity to repair it. Now I'm working on getting the parts. What do you suggest? The engine may only be refurbished with original Caterpillar parts, or aftermarket parts are also suitable, which have a more favorable price. As far as I know, you can also find Freeday Parts here in Europe, where they sell aftermarket parts of adequate quality. What is your opinion and experience about this? One more professional question, does the Cat 3204 DI engine have replaceable cylinder liners or do the pistons run directly in the engine block? What does the "DI" mark at the end of the engine type number mean? Thank you in advance for your help.
Oh, that's expensive and bad - but it's identical to the problems I found in my 3204. The original Cat 2 ring pistons are weak. Use IPD aftermarket 3 ring pistons, they are superior to anything else. The engine is "parent bore" - that is, it does not use cylinder liners. You will have to machine the bores to oversize. You need to measure the wear in the cylinder bore and make a decision on the final overbore dimension. Pistons available are only 0.020" oversize and 0.040" oversize. Make sure you have the pistons in hand before you carry out any oversize boring, as there are specific instructions in the box, for bore sizing and finish for the IPD pistons. The Caterpillar parts are expensive and will be slow to be acquired. However, ensure you use genuine Cat "little end" (bronze) conrod bushings. These will come from Cat Japan and are the ONLY conrod bushings to install. These bushings are the weak point of the engine (besides the original pistons!). The cylinder head also has no valve guide inserts, the valve stem runs directly on the cast iron head metal. These wear badly, and you will find the valve stems are "sloppy". Machine the head to take "K-line" bronze valve stem inserts, and this will fix the problem. The "K-Line" inserts are excellent U.S.-made aftermarket parts. Also, install new valve springs, because these are cheap and important to replace. Aftermarket valve springs are manufactured by S.B. International in the U.S. or by TRW. You would be well advised to replace all the valves as well, good quality U.S-made aftermarket valves are easily obtained, and only cost around US$150 for a full set of 8 valves. Home - SBI Friday Parts are an agent for Chinese-manufactured parts and components, and they are based in Hong Kong. I would not use Chinese internal engine parts or components, their quality is still not good enough. I did purchase a Chinese water pump from Jeenda Controls, another seller of Chinese parts based in Hong Kong. The water pump was cheap, and the quality is O.K., and if the water pump breaks down, it's not such a problem to replace - unlike a broken piston! The "DI" means your engine uses Direct Injection in the combustion chamber. Earlier 3204's used "PC" - precombustion chambers, and the precombustion chamber design was a completely different design to DI. Your bearings shows signs of what is called "cavitation erosion". This odd wear pattern can be caused by the oil pump sucking air, or inadequate oil pressure. Make sure your oil pump rotors are in good condition, or replaced if they show wear. The oil pump rotor is very expensive to buy, about US$700 even for aftermarket. Cat want over US$1000 for their oil pump rotor. I am re-using my oil pump rotor, because the rotor wear is minimal, and the wear level is still well within specification levels. Bearing Damage: Cavitation Erosion Cavitation erosion is an impact fatigue attack caused by the formation and collapse of vapor bubbles in the oil film under conditions of rapid pressure changes during the crank cycle in internal combustion engines. www.waukbearing.com
Fantastic info OZDozer..!!!
Ditto
Hi OZDozer. Thank you very much for the quick and comprehensive professional information! For the "little end" bronze bushings, did you mean connecting rod bushings? Maybe you can recommend a parts distributor where I can buy the complete replacement kit? - or is it more appropriate to buy them separately from the parts manufacturers listed above? I have already consulted with a machine shop who will do the engine work and he also suggested that I take the engine there for inspection and then they will tell me what size parts I will need.
Yes, the connecting rod bushings that the piston pin rotates on. The Cat part number is 9N5082. I cannot recommend a parts distributor who can supply the complete replacement kit, because you will then have no choice over the individual parts supplied. The parts suppliers who supply complete kits, usually supply all Chinese parts. I would suggest you find an IPD agent or distributor in your area and get them to supply as many U.S. made IPD components as they can supply. Being in Hungary makes it difficult for me to make recommendations, as I'm not familiar with your countrys dealers or distributors. It is good to take the engine to a machine shop who has a good record of repairing Cat engines. Many machine shops specialise in just a few makes, and become familiar with them. It is important to have the repair/service manual for your tractor, so you can obtain the disassembly and assembly instructions and the specifications for clearances.
This is probably the single most important factor for a successful engine rebuild, or any repair on the machine for that matter. You require Caterpillar Publication reference SENR2033. I took a quick look around and could not find anything used for sale. Bearing in mind your location the cost of shipping a heavy paper manual (most likely from the USA) is probably uneconomic. All is not lost though, you can buy the manual in CD form from HERE for US$355. The same source also has a Parts Manual (SEBP1456 for all 19Z-prefix machines with S/N above 253) on CD for US$109. I would say that the Service Manual is absolutely essential for what you propose to do, and the Parts Manual would be a close second on the list. If you have a Parts Manual you could search for eny part you require using the Cat OEM Part Number which would give you access to both Cat & aftermarket parts
Dear Nige, I was expecting your application. As I mentioned above, I already acquired the original documentation for the machine. My parts catalog is slightly different, but still usable. Thank you for your attention and help. Could you help me with the purchase of spare parts? A specific parts distributor, or even personal contact? I already wrote to the companies specified by OzDozer on Friday, but I haven't received a response yet. It's true, it was the weekend, maybe I'm a little impatient?! I wish you a nice day.
cat951b , here is the IPD website link (below) with a range of literature to inform you. There is an IPD Headquarters for European parts distribution, they will be able to advise you who your local IPD distributor or agent is, in Hungary. It appears IPD EU operate from Poland, the manager is listed as Michal Owczarek, and he can be contacted at [email protected] - or call him at +45 7550 7666. Literature - Premium Quality Heavy-Duty Engine Parts IPD shares resources on a wide range of engine related topics, including parts, industries and applications. Download the brochures from our website. www.ipdparts.com Europe | IPD www.ipdparts.com
Sorry I have no leads regarding the availability of spare parts other than the ones already mentioned.
Hi OzDozer, great info again! Thank you and I appreciate it. I haven't found it yet. I am already writing to Mr. Owczarek.. If there is progress I will apply. Good day everyone!
Greetings to everyone! Little by little, things are changing. The engine is in the machine shop, the parts are ordered with Ozdozer's recommendation from IPD. I would also like to replace the seals of the hydrostat that can be "externally" reached, but I have already found 2 anomalies (see the photos), the Teflon seals of both pistons were pinched!! (In my opinion, this is still the original factory-installed Hydrostat) Could this have caused the problem? The O-rings are not visibly damaged, nor are the pistons clearly worn on one side. What would be important: I would need these O-rings and support (Teflon) rings for the part. I couldn't find it in the Parts book. But maybe I was just careless?!
Maybe not “damaged” as you think but it is obvious from the photos that the O-Rings are no longer circular in cross-section. They appear to be almost square and I would bet that their material is very hard. It is quite likely that they were leaking. The Teflon ring is usually called a “Ring - Backup” in Cat parts manuals.
Look in the 9J-0365 & the 9J-8554, Replenishing Valve (LH & RH). The seals are listed in both. You need #10 & 11 - 4J-8996 Seal O-Ring, and 9J-8086 Ring - Backup
Actually there is damage on at least one O-Ring when the photo is zoomed. See below. I also think that I know why the Teflon backup rings have worn, and it all revolves around the fact that the O-Rings were originally a circular cross-section when they were new but now they appear to be almost square. The material of the 4J-8996 Seal material when new is 3.53mm in diameter - shown by the black circle. If the seal is flattened over time until the cross section transforms from that circle to effectively a square with rounded corners then the "height" of the seal in the groove reduces to approximately 2.9mm - shown by the red square. This is what I think has caused the load to move from the seal to the Teflon backup ring and caused the wear to said ring.
Hi Nige, thank you very much for your quick professional help! Unfortunately, I missed this drawing in the parts book. (Unfortunately, I don't speak English and I use Google translator and it often doesn't work exactly, so it makes it difficult to interpret accurately.) Yes, we agree that this is a worn O-ring and it is probably leaking. I thought it wasn't cracked or torn.
thanks for the detailed analysis and part numbers.
Dear Nige, I would like to ask for one more help. Regarding the sealing of metal pipes inside and outside the Hydrostat. I couldn't find the part number of the sealing kit shown in the attached pictures either. Could you find this for me too? Thank you in advance. Have a nice day.
Hi Dave, Are those metal pipes and seals?
See the illustration below. If you want the big black seal seal on the right the Part Number to buy it separately is 8T-9502. None of the other three parts in your photo are available separately. If they are damaged then order 5P-8752 Nut Assembly. You will find 5P-8752 listed in the parts for the 3G-7395 Hydrostatic Case Lines Group. 5P-8752 Nut Assembly also contains the 8T-9502 Seal.
Hi Nige, Thank you very much for the detailed information and your work. I'm already ordering the parts. I wish you a nice day.
Hey guys! I found the following problem in the diesel fuel tank. (However, the inside of the tank was nice and clean!) Look at the photos... The suction pipe elbow was almost completely blocked with some old pieces of rubber or plastic! The engine could not get enough fuel under load, which could also result in poor performance! It is not enough to just check the filter system! Even small things can be very annoying
Oh WOW.. good find..!! If it has a black plastic tank, I’ll bet money it came from there..
IIRC the wire mesh screen in the filler neck of the fuel tank has a plastic structure to which the mesh is bonded. What's the betting that plastic started to fall apart and someone threw the screen away - but not before some fragments of it got lodged in the fuel line elbow.?
The filter and tank interior are in good condition for their age! I'm guessing some foreign material, because I found a metal ball suction head in the tank earlier, which may have fallen in at some point when they wanted to suck the diesel out of it.
If I recall the plastic around the fill strainer is a white/yellowy colour from the diesel on my 931B.
Greetings to everyone. I am sending here some pictures of the inside of the tank, of the filter. All parts are intact and original, only minimal rust is visible in the tank. Because of the suction head found in it, I concluded it was a foreign substance.
x
In the meantime, the aforementioned seals and connecting rod bushings from Caterpillar arrived. I have already installed the rubber seals and O-Rings in the hydrostat. The inside of the hydrostat was "pharmacy" clean There was no sediment in the oil pan, I found few, very fine metal particles on the filter magnet. (I think they come from the gears) Unfortunately, I didn't take many photos in the rush of work
Hey guys. I would like to share with you a short status report on the project. I am progressing a bit slowly, but step by step. The parts from IPD Parts have arrived. Big thanks again to OZDozer for the info and help! The machine shop also renovated the engine block, in my opinion they did a good job, but it cost almost double the agreed price! This weekend we started assembling the bike with my nephew, but unfortunately it wasn't finished due to lack of time. To be continued. I wish everyone who is interested a nice day! Pictures below..
Was there a good reason for the block to be double the price?
Unfortunately not. It's just that Caterpillar and it is always more expensive everywhere. I felt cheated and told the Master that I will not recommend it to others.
They should at the very least give you a reason why it was double.
This is a slightly more complicated matter. This is a small private machine shop with a long history and an almost 80-year-old master, they mostly renew passenger car engines. They were readily available near me and were recommended by several people for me to try. I went to negotiate with the master and he gave me a preliminary price. (Maybe he misjudged it the first time) After doing the job it was twice the price, he claimed he couldn't press out the connectng road bushings and left it at another shop and it cost him 1/4. the full price. I didn't want to argue with the old master and paid the requested amount. Later, I asked for a quote from a machine shop that repairs large-scale industrial machinery, and they gave me almost the same price. So I calmed down a bit.
yes
Hi Dawe! Thank you I replaced all of them and indeed several pieces were damaged.
Hello guys. Here are some pictures of the current state. I assembled and painted the engine and hydrostat. I also painted the rest of the machine, renovated the hydraulic cylinders, and replaced the cracked and worn hoses. If everything goes well, I will have a few days off at the beginning of next week and I would like to reinstall the hydraulic cylinders and the engine with the hydrostat. Does anyone know how much TDTO 10 W oil is needed in the hydrostat according to the factory data? I haven't been patient enough to look it up yet.
around 12 gals
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Hi Dave, thanks for your reply. I think the 12 gyllon goes into the complete system, but it only needs oil to go into the Hydrostat itself? For what is important, my oil dipstick was so worn from the vibrations that it almost broke, I tried to weld it and unfortunately the thin plate burned. Now it's shorter and I want to recalibrate it. The new dipstick costs about 200 Euros!
According to the Operation & Maintenance Manual for a 19Z-prefix machine the "transmission" (I assume you drained all the oil) contains approximately 27 litres. Caterpillar refill quantities as mentioned in the manuals are always "approximate". Any compartment is supposed to be filled using the dipstick, level plug, or sight glass, whichever applies for a particular system.
Hi Nige, thank you for the quick information. This 27 Liters - 7 Gallons will be a good starting point. I fill the empty gearbox with this quantity and mark it on the repaired (shorter) dipstick. After commissioning, when the entire system is filled with oil, I have to adjust the oil level to this new value.
With all the work you've done, I'd consider the cost of a new dipstick pretty minor. Maybe you can find a used or aftermarket dipstick??
Hi guys. in the meantime the engine and the Hydtostat are back in the machine. The old Cat 951 was installed and we used it to lift the engine into place. Pictures...
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...The original Cat oil arrived in the Hydrostat and Engine.
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Hi Dave, yes you are right. Sooner or later I will buy the original Dipstick, just the price of the machine and the complete refurbishment was done with private money, I would like to get it working for a bit now and then bring something back and then I will have everything I need
I consider a dipstick one of the most critical components on any machine. When the rings didn't seat on my rebuilt engine there was absolutely no smoke. Only by checking the dipstick did I realize it was using oil at an alarming rate. The engine had to come back out to fix the problem but it could have been a lot worse if I hadn't been checking the dipstick every time to monitor the oil level.
In my case it's the Hydrostat dipstick. It's about 20-25mm ( 1") shorter than the original, so about the lower original level is optimal. But as I said, I want to replace it with an original part as soon as possible.
Greetings to all. I would like to share with you some photos of the finished machine and the first one in operation. The machine is working very well and the engine and hydrostat overhaul were successful. I would like to thank you all for all the information and help, I would like to mention especially Nige, OZdozer and Welder Dawe, if we ever meet in life the first beer would be on me!
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That's a nice machine and being an LGP it will work in softer ground. The sprocket segments look worn though.
Hi Dave, yes, I will have to replace the sprocket segments soon. As I mentioned earlier about the hydrostatic oil stick, unfortunately my financial options are limited. Now that the machine is finished and in the works, hopefully I will have the money
Hi Guys. I would like to ask you how the depreciation of the machines is calculated during the use of the machine? What is the depreciation cost per hour of operation? Is there maybe a formula for this or a separate thread on this forum? Thanks in advance for your help!
I don't think there is a cut and dry formula for older machines because every machine is different. A well maintained machine with service records and receipts for all the repairs will bring more money than a machine with no service history. New machines may have a formula but once a machine is say 10 years old there's too many variables.