Hey there, I am new to the forum although not entirely new to Backhoes and other tractors. I purchased a 1997 Cat 416C IT (Turbo) a month ago and due to the cold weather I have just now begun to check it out more thoroughly/Use it. Well I am finding a ton of issues that I did not notice during the rather quick, well below freezing demo I gave the machine before I bought it. (From an independant tractor/implement dealer) Well amoungst an ever growing list of issues it won't go much faster then a jogging speed in 4th gear on the road. Matters not uphill, downhill or flat. 4th gear, full throttle hitting 'maybe' 15 kph max which makes for a doubling of the time it takes to get where I need to go. Any ideas of common issues that could cause this? Note that all filters and fluids were changed before I picked it up with the exception of the tranny/diff. It is pulling 1900 RPM in 4th... will pull no more then that, but at 1900 rpm I should be doing a good 30 kph from what the operators manual info tells me? Also one of the outriggers bleeds pressure quickly so using the hoe is a matter of re-levelling every minute or so... not productive. I am by no means a heavy equipment mechanic although relatively handy. How hard is it to fix a hydraulic cylinder? (Note that I see no scratches and the chroming looks good but the dust/dirt seal is leaking fluid out) I have a variety of other issues but I'll start with these most pressing. Thank you very much. P.S. Is the smell of burning wires in the cab a bad sign? doh! (I put an extinguisher in it before I ever turned the key.. perhaps I jinxed myself)
My friend use to have a 416CIT same year. It was slower than a 3 legged donkey over the road. I think a 580 Case in 3rd gear would pass a 416 in 4th high rpm. I dont know the conversion kph to mph, but cats are normally pretty slow on the road. I would check the tranny fluid and change it if it hasnt been done already.
Should do ~21 mph. Picture 10mph in 4th... it's not effective. I've never seen anything like it... at first I didn't care that the radio wasn't working but after a while you wish you had something other then your own cursing to hear.
Hi Pottsy - if you are using your "new" machine for the first time in the cold weather we have been having, don't condemn it just yet. On roading speed, there is about 16 litres of 80W-90 gear oil in your front axle if it is 4x4, another 40 litres of some other oil in the rear, plus the reverser is cold, the U-joints are cold and the bearings are cold. It takes lots of power to turn that molasses, and you are only starting out with about 70hp if you are lucky - it takes time to warm everything up. Jack the machine up with the front bucket sometime it is really cold, grab a handful of the driveshaft and try to turn it. (I took my 310C out this past weekend to lift snowbanks. It was -27 when I started it, and even after 30 minutes warming up with the rear wheels in the air and turning, it still would not pull 3rd gear until I went 3 blocks. It warmed up only when I started to work it harder. Never did hit 4th gear - our roads aren't smooth enough with all of the frost heaves). The good news is - there is a brief but intense warming spell forecast for the Ottawa region on January 29th - considerable hot air will spew from Parliament Hill and warm Ottawa and the surrounding communities for several days. The trend may continue if the opposition jackals surround the hill and demand their share of attention too. On the stabilizer, test the cylinder for a leaking piston. Jack the backhoe up on the stabilizers, then support the weight of the machine with the rear boom. Remove the rod-side hose from the offending cylinder, place that securely in a bucket, and then slowing apply weight to it by lifting the boom. If oil bypasses the leaky seal from the cylinder side, it will accumulate in the bucket from the rod-side hose. If the machine still settles, but no oil shows up in your bucket, then you have a cylinder-side valve problem. Watch out for hydraulic oil under pressure - nasty results. Hope this helps, as may the warm weather on Thursday. John
Hey John, thanks for the info! Indeed, there is talk of a return to the hot air from the hill shortly... with some luck it is a mass release from a deflating coalition. I have run the machine only three times since it showed up... twice for a quick bit of snow removal (Never left 2nd gear) and then this past Sunday -15, (Told myself anything under -16 I wasn't even starting it... -15 , go figure) in order to do some actual work. I let it warm up for about 30 minutes before heading out. I then drove ~ 1 1/3 hours to get just down the road to my work site... did a bit of snow moving and gave the hoe a try. (When I noticed the stabilizer wouldn't hold up). Ran there for another couple of hours and then the same slow trip back. BUT I will say that for some reason the engine temp gauge, despite the machine being worked, barely crept up from the baseline. On the advice of the tractor guy I got it from I worked through the gears repeatedly with no positive results. Here I was excited to have a machine with Ride Control... never got to a speed that needed it. (Assuming of course it is working... might be on the 'questionable' list) Think it could be that things were still just too cold? As for the reverser, is that valve more then just an on/off type of thing? Is it possible that it would be sticky from the cold and give sluggish effectiveness, yet still give forward/reverse function at all?(It did) You wouldn't believe all of the 'needs work' items I have come across now that I have the machine in my own hands versus at the shop. (I'm a tad miffed) Sadly, I hate winter... being in North Bay you know all about it. I will give your suggestion in regards to the stabilizer test a go. How difficult is it to tear one apart to replace the seals? (Oil is also coming out of the end dirt seal at a pretty good rate) Thank you very much.
ran cat 416 hoe doing snow removal along with two case 580's. they would be at harley plant a good 1/2 hour or more before I got there. they were fine for pushing snow in second gear but after roading in there twice we made a point of trailering the cat to the site. the case would gain a block and a half in 5 blocks going to the hardees for grub. not a bad machine but SLOW on the road. could be the converter is getting smoked from running in too high of a gear. bill
416 roading issue pottsy: If you have a warm shop I would get it inside let it warm up over night or so and change the transmission filter and check the condition of the oil.Someone may have put the wrong oil in for the temps of winter. Does the rpm go higher than 1900 when not under load? Is it a Perkins? It would take about two to three hours to change the outrigger seals.That's if all comes apart smoothly. Be sure to use a spanner wrench on the cap, a hammer and punch is a bad idea. Make sure you have the kit before disassembling. mailtrain
You know - I can't believe that I got the date wrong on that warming spell - it is here now - enjoy it. I can barely stand to look at Layton, let alone listen to him open his trap. I sure hope I don't have to send my spring tax cheque to him! I do know that a Case will out distance my Deere - I've had both. Maybe a Cat is slower, but your 1900 rpm max engine speed tells me that it is labouring too hard to give you full rpm and speed. As mentioned above, I wonder what they refilled with during the changes - if someone dumped 40 litres of gear oil in the rear diff, that poor thing would do well to hit 15 kmph at -16. In the cold, you may find that 3rd gear will yield the same road speed as 4th, and it will allow the engine to reach the governor, and be easier on the torque convertor. Does it rev beyond 1900 in the lower gears? Just some thoughts - I've got to shut the TV off - they've got Jack's mug on there again. John
This thing would have , a high and low range trans , would it not ? sounds like it's just in low range .
I wish I had a warm shop... I may have to wait until temps come up a bit. Seems to top out at 1900 regardless of gear... although I have seen it jump to ~2300/2400 momentarily. Engine is the cat 3054 turbo. I checked on the price to rebuild the outrigger at the local Cat shop.. $800... so it sounds like a job for me. Judging by the 'scars' on all the caps a hammer and punch was used previously... (Not pretty) I will see if I can get a proper spanner wrench. Thank you.
Perhaps the tranny and/or rear diff fluid is the issue, seems to be a common thought. (And I cannot speak for what was used... however the dealer I bought it from is actually going to be in town tomorrow and will stop by to check it out. I don't think he is going to be as friendly when I rhyme off the list of deficiencies he failed to disclose.) 3rd gear drops the speed to probably less then 10 kph... it didn't seem to matter what gear, 1900 was all she really wanted to give. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
It was a thought, but no it's single range.
pottsy: There may also be a governor issue too. mailtrain
Can you make more than 1900rpm in neutral? If not, check that the throttle linkage is adjusted so that the governor lever hits the stop when wide open.
mailtrain: Seems to be a whole whack of possible causes... ah the fun. Cmark: Actually when searching for the source of a fuel leak I did notice that the governer lever adjustment screw doesn't actually hit the stop... it is perhaps 1/8" from it with the throttle fully applied. Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, very much appreciated... now to get the time to look into them. hahaha I did finally get the operators manual for the unit and it seems there is an overdrive gear on top of 4th... automatic in nature. I know it went into 5th a few times (Which seemed odd at the time) but only for a second. There may be a collection of related issues. Shame the weather is not allowing an easy time of checking things out.