Hello All, New to the forum, I've always been impressed with this forum and the depth of knowledge on here so I thought I should finally sign up. I recently Purchased a 1976 977L (11K) Track loader and i'm having a really hard time locating information on the transmission oil capacity. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Adam
Hope this comes through clear enough, Sometimes Cat does not do a good job of scanning in the old manuals. Keep in mind these are approximate quantities so I'd stop adding at about 90% and then keep checking as you add also keep in mind that some compartments have "safe starting" or "running levels". I know on some of the Cat front end loaders the oil level will go up a significant amount when the oil gets warm.
Note that transmission oil is to be hot when checked and hyd. oil cold. If you fill the trans. to the full mark when cold it will be way over full when hot.
Great information!! Thanks guys I figured I came to the right place Adam
If you need any more specific info on the 977L would be good to post full S/N as SIS lists 3 or 4 S/N breaks under the 11K prefix.
I have had good luck finding service and parts manuals on "Fleabay". Regards, Clark
Serial #11K7981
Wow, cab to. Looks good as far as what I can see in the picture.
Pretty excited about the cab, my 955K didn't have one and holy man you ate some dirt on windy days!! It definitely needs some work but i think its solid overall. Whats the consensus on when a front idler is determined to be wore out? These look fairly wore but I have no idea if they need to be replaced... Thanks Guys :canada
I'll leave that to those who have had more experience with tracks and under carriages but did fin this link to the Custom Track Service Handbook, might be some info in there that would help someone. A quick look does show information on the 977 right in with that for a D7. http://www.manualesdemecanica.com/images/files/discussion/679/434c7fe35af80cd173614c6efcccc6f6.pdf Not sure if this is the spec's but I do see this page on measuring idler wear:
Anybody have any tricks for getting grease into the bucket attachment pins? (Main pins that the bucket swivels on), they seemed to be plugged SOLID. I tried the fancy tool that you hit with a hammer to no avail, really don't want to take the pins out....
Been discussed here many times in other threads. My ideas from where I sit: First thing is to remove the grease fitting and dig out as much old grease as possible then fill with your favorite penetrating oil and soak it good for a couple days. Next if you have access to a porta-power pump make up some fittings to adapt it to the grease fitting hole and try forcing some oil through it. If no pump is handy get a good grease gun but instead of grease fill it with light oil or even fuel oil and connect it to the fitting hole and try flushing it out. If none of that works best bet would be to pull the pin and clean out the old dirt and grease. Not familiar with the design of this particular machines pins. But if you are lucky you might be able to only pull the pin out about half way to get access to the grease hole. Some grease through drillings in pin and some through passages in the arms.
Tried everything with those grease fittings, no dice... Ended up having to pull the pins. Seized up pretty bad, even had to drill out one of the retaining bolts on the right side.
Sometimes that is the best way to go. Now if you keep it greased it should never give a problem. My personal preference is to grease "AFTER" each use to flush out any crap that may have got in there. I think that is even more important on a machine that might not be used everyday. The longer it sets the better chance dried out mud and such will harden and plug things up. I'd also coat the retaining bolts with Never-Seize so you will have a better chance getting them out next time! At least you had a good magnetic drill to do the work!
Can anyone explain what the steel Mill arrangement means? I went to order the bearings for the loader bucket pivot and the parts person at Union tractor informed me that when he ran the serial number the and looked up the bearings it came up as Steel Mill Arrangement.. Just Curious as it lists two separate part numbers for the bearings. Thanks Guys!
Steel Mill Arrangement was more heavy duty and designed to resist high temperatures working with hot slag AFAIK. Edit: If your dealer can give you the Part Number of the Steel Mill Arrangement for your machine I can give you the breakdown of what's in it.
That explains why the bearings are larger for my particular machine. Very interesting information! Its truly amazing that a question such as this can be answered in a few minutes on the forum and it completely stumps the guy selling me the parts! Nige, I'm curious as to your back ground and as to how you acquired such a wealth on information on heavy equipment.
Years of experience and a memory like an elephant helps ............
One more questions for you guys, when I go to drain the fluids from this machine which plugs do I need to pull to get everything drained out of the transmission? There seems to be 3 plugs for the transmission, one large one in the center and 2 smaller ones on either side. Nige, wish I had a memory like that mine seems to be more akin to a goldfish some days.....:laugh
If you don't have an Operation & Maintenance manual which has all that information then the best I can suggest is to invest $45 for a paper version or $36.99 for a CD with these guys ............ https://servicemanualpro.com/?page=Products&searchbox=11K07981
Excellent advice, thank you
When I put that s/n 11K7981 in SIS and click on the box for Arrangement number the only number that shows up there is 6P1829. And if I put that arraignment number in NPR I get this: If I click on "As Shipped Product" it says "Sorry, the Serial Number '11K07981 ' not found. " Not sure if this helps. Let me know if there is something else I should check. Found something more if it helps:
Kshansen, Great info, a bit of mystery with an older machine keeps things interesting! I measured the bearings tonight and they are the correct ones, hopefully i'll have it back together sooner than later. I ordered the manual as Nige suggested however I won't see it for some time as the mail service here in Canada can be quite slow during the summer (Sled dogs and such aren't great without the snow:tong) You wouldn't happen to have any service info for doing an oil change on the transmission by chance? Hate to be a bother but i'm off this weekend and would really like to get some fresh fluids in the old girl. Thanks again guys! As always I am in awe of the amount of knowledge on the forum :notworthy
6P-1829 (Special Arrgt - Traxcavator) breaks down into 2 groups, 6P-1828 Steel Mill Arrgt & 6K-5440 Hydraulic Arrgt. Ken's already posted the listing of the Hydraulic Arrgt and what strikes me straight away is the gear pump. I would have thought a machine of that vintage would have a Vickers vane pump installed. Maybe the gear pump was necessary to go with the fire-resistant hydraulic fluid..? Drilling down deeper into 6P-1828 it appears as though it includes the following non-standard parts that would be different to a regular 977K/L machine of a similar Serial Number: - Track roller frame, track rollers, & carrier rollers Sprocket & guards Bucket linkage Brake linings Air intake precleaner Radiator & other guards How many of those parts are simply bolt-on replacements for the standard ones I'm not sure, but I'd bet it's most of them.
Hello Guys, Hope everyone s enjoying their weekend, beautiful weather out here in the Northern Country Today. I have been making some progress with the 977L as of late, boy those master link bolts were a nightmare. Used some of the techniques I found here on the forum and I was able to get them all out and save the threads.
After removing the master ling and lifting the track off of the front idler I noticed quite a bit of slop in the from Idler bearing, I would say there is at least .250" of play at the outer diameter of the hub (Side to side). I would expect that there is some allowable play however I would like to hear some opinions on the matter. I have gone through the trouble of removing the Idler and will decide wether or not to get the bearings rebuilt based on the replies here on the forum. Thanks in advance!
Well done getting the master link bolts out...! The photos of the master link aren't too clear but it appears as though they would benefit from a touch with a Dremel or die grinder to clean up the teeth on the links so that when you fit the new bolts up the links pull down tight and you run no risk of the bolts loosening. Also using the Dremel tidy up the top surface of the link where the shoe sits - it appears to have a bit of hammer rash on it. Unless the shoe sits down absolutely square the bolts are always going to loosen no matter how carefully you tighten them. You can use a 010" feeler gauge to check for any gaps between the top of the master link and the bottom surface of the master shoe. Tip: - when fitting the new master link bolts use anti-seize compound on both the threaded and non-threaded parts of the bolts, plus under the head. This is expecially important when you are re-using existing worn track shoes. Regarding the front idler play. Grab the blocks located at each end of the idler shaft and try to lift them up. How much vertical slop do you have..? If you can feel a detectable "clunk" then new bushes and seals would be advisable while everything is disassembled.
Thanks Nige! I've sent out a few estimate requests to the local undercarriage shop for the re-bearing on the idler wheels. In your opinion what should a repair like this run cost wise?
Was able to drag the tracks off yesterday, sure is easier to work on the rollers with the extra room.
Undercarriage shop called back, apparently no one rebuilds idlers anymore - replacement only 1500 CAD each Ouch
Try Offroad Equipment if you haven't already.... www.offroadeq.com/ if they have bushes and seals available for the idler then it ought to be possible to rebuild it. I'm not sure about the undercarriage shop's "nobody rebuilds idlers any more" (does that mean "we don't want to rebuild idlers any more?) but then again I'm not in North America. Keep persevering with thoughts of rebuild.
Rebuilding the wear area on the idler is a simple matter of a MIG welder that can pull some serious amperage, spools of large diameter wire, and your time. If you are careful, the as welded surface is adequate with no machining. Regards, Clark
Hi Clark, Thanks for the comments. I have a couple questions regarding the welding. I've got two choices for welding wire, i was able to acquire some high end pipeline welding wire. Its 045 fluxcore wire that is intended to be run with gas. The first option is Esab Dual shield II 712X and the second option is Dual Shield II 101H4M. After doing some research on the two different wires I found that the 712 is extremely Tough with less yield strength and the 101 has more tensile strength but less toughness. Which would you choose for welding the outer rim? Toughness or Tensile Strength? Also I will be using a Miller 251 to do this work Any and all comments are welcome
Also what weld pattern should I use? side to side or around the circumference?
Circumferential.
Right
Did a little digging on the parts required for the idler re-build and all of them are readily available, not sure why the undercarriage shop refuses to do this kind of work seems pretty straightforward with the right kind of tools.
not enough profit margin maybe..?
Throw away culture unfortunately, there's been too much money flying around this province for a longtime. However that might change if the price of oil stays depressed for much longer
You want something like Stoody 105 designed specifically for metal to metal wear/rebuilding idlers not wire designed for welding as it will be too soft and mushroom. You don't want a full hardface wire either as it will too hard and wear your rails out faster. When you see the price you might reconsider building them up. I think that has a lot to do with why idlers aren't build up much anymore. One shop up here used to run 2 idler machines rebuilding machines full out day and night shift but they don't do it at all anymore.
I had always built up with 7018 stick weld then had a shop with a vertical lathe cut them back smooth but I do see the low prices for replacements and expensive shop labor shutting that down.
Thanks for the info Welder Dave, any thoughts as to which wire to use from the option I listed? I did some checking on the price for hard facing wire and it it very expensive! I'm definitely going to use up what I have available
Does anyone know what type of material the idlers are made from initially? from what I can tell it doesn't seem all that hard...A file definitely bites into it I did make some progress last night removing the locks in the blocks on the idler shaft, I was actually quite surprised they came apart with the amount of rust. I was also able to use a swing press to get the hubs to start moving out of the Idler wheel I plan on taking the plunge and building a press out of some scrap to press everything apart, does anyone have any comments on how many tons of force would be required to get these things out? I have a 20 Ton air powered bottle jack that I plan on using. Also the parts for the re-build are very reasonable, does anyone have any experience doing a similar rebuild like this? Are there any parts that should be changed even if they look okay? I'm assuming that the bushing and seals will obviously need to be replaced.... Anything else? Thanks Guys! Always a pleasure here on the forum
Welder Dave has the right material in mind. The automatic welders lay down a circumferential bead that leaves a pretty smooth surface. I have done and used these and left-right beads with success. If you can rotate the idler as you weld, I would use circumferential beads. Regards, Clark
Machining might look make things nice but it's not really necessary. If you use the correct electrode/wire the hardened surface of the track links will smooth the welded surface on the idler PDQ without any need for machining...... The idlers are usually forged steel but they will not be hard per se, they will have additives in the steel for toughness and wear resistance. One of our welder members should be able to tell you what they are. 20 tons ought to be enough to push things apart so long as you maybe give the block a bit of heat. To reassemble polish everything well before trying to press it all together. Bushes and Duo-Cone seals should be all that is necessary. Maybe the shaft if it's found to be worn. I would replace the nickel & dime stuff like spring pins as well. Not sure exactly what the assembly has in it other than that. If you have a parts book post a photo of the relevant page.
What I would suggest. Others may have different ideas: - Item 12 - 9M9760 Bearing (only if worn and not capable of rectification) Item 13 - 9M9758 Shaft (ditto) Item 23 - 9M9759 Bearing (ditto) Item 14 - 1M8747 Seal Gp x 2 Item 15 - 8H2262 Ring. If this is a snap ring replace it. Item 17 - 9M9729 Seal x 2 Item 18 - 3P8432 Bushing As x 2. Only if damaged/worn. Replace the 9B2289 Pin anyway. Item 19 - 8P6651 Bearing As. Item 20 - 8M4390 Seal x 2 Item 21 - 2P0347 Plug. If this is a threaded plug just replace the 1S8947 Seal. If it is pressed in you'll need to drill it out and replace the plug because that's where you fill the idler with oil. Any bolts, etc, that are worn/damaged should also obviously be replaced. While you are in there take a look at the welded-on wear strips in the front end of the track frame where the "hooks" on the bottom side of the 3P6060 Collar As slide back and forth. They do tend to groove where the collar has been sitting. They are easy to grind off and replace with some mild steel strip of the correct width and thickness. If these strips are worn it's almost impossible to correctly adjust the vertical movement of the idler which, if it's excessive, will put additional stress on to the recoil mechanism and the spring.
Thanks for taking the time to put this all together, much appreciated. I'll post some pictures tomorrow of the disassembly, thanks again
As I said above, a lot will depend on exactly what you find on disassembly. I realise it's going to be more work but depending on what you actually find on the one side you might be well advised to do the other side at the same time or very soon afterwards.
Definitely going to be doing both sides, I've gone this far.. I made some progress last night on the press, some pics of some decent looking welds and the setup i'm using (.045 Fluxcore with Gas). I did unfortunately screw up my design (need to fire my engineer :Banghead ) I really should have have laid the bottom pieces on edge as they are flexing as soon as any load is applied. I'm going to reinforce everything tonight and try again.
I don't have a photo but years ago when the shop I worked in built up idler wheel faces they were set in the jig in the same orientation that the idler sits in the machine, supported by the 2 blocks, and spun on the axle using a rubber drive roller attached to an electric motor & gearbox then the weld was applied downhand with the torch at the 12 o'clock position relative to the idler if that makes sense. See the 2nd photo down the RH column here ......... http://www.holtca.com/undercarriage-services
A set up like that would be ideal! I'm sure I could rig up something similar... Would a set up like that be worth the time for just the two wheels? I was able to pick up all the parts necessary for the re-build (Both Idlers) for 450.00 Cad, now as long as the welding goes alright i'll be in the clear and will have saved around 1800.00 Cad. I like the idea of the idler cool down containers in the left column, less stress cracks I presume?
You wouldn't happen to know what temp they used on the preheat for the idlers?
be careful using cutting edges like that. a lot of them are made out of high carbon steel and are prone to sudden breakage. seen a guy carted off to hospital once because of a failure. Mark
That thought definitely crossed my mind, thanks for the heads up I'll be as careful possible. I was pretty restricted in my choice of materials, steel prices around here are astronomical. I'll post more pictures of the rig tomorrow when its all done and hopefully everyone can critique it.
To be honest I wasn't suggesting you manufacture a setup like the one in the link simply to reface two idlers, just trying to show you how they were oriented (vertical vs horizontal). For two idlers I'd simply make something to bolt the two square blocks to in order to hold the idler in a vertical position. A thought - is it feasible to somehow mount the idlers back on top of the front end of the track frame and just have someone rotate them slowly for you while you weld..? Regarding preheat and controlled cooling remember that the dealer is trying to get the welding done in the shortest possible time and by using a submerged arc process is putting huge quantities of heat into the idler. If the idler isn't preheated before starting and if the cooling is not controlled after welding the chances are the wheel will crack. You on the other hand will not be putting anywhere near as much heat into the wheel because your welding process is different. Regarding preheat I'd just put enough heat into the metal to drive out the moisture. Because your time's your own you can do one circle of weld then go off and have a coffee for example, so the extremes of temperature will be nowhere near as acute. It might be worth your while to send Welder Dave a PM and ask him for some advice.
An IMPORTANT step I forgot about. Before welding on the idlers you have to cut a hole in the plate on the side so it won't build up pressure from the welding heat. You have welded idlers not forged idlers. Forged idlers don't have the sides plates and a hollow core. Usually about a 2- 2 1/2" plug is cut out and after the idler is built up and cooled off, the plug can be welded back in. Tack a piece of bar on the plug before you cut it out so you grab on to it. If you've ever seen a round plug welded on the side of an idler it's because the idler was built up with weld. Also a good way to tell if an idler has ever been rebuilt with weld. Idlers likely have to be taken apart so the heat doesn't cause damage to other parts but it may depend on how much you do at a time. Preheating to 300 degs. or so is best. Nige's link shows them preheating with a weed burner/Tiger torch.
Dave, he's replacing bushings and seals in the idlers so there ought not to be anything else in there to damage from the heat. Regarding the plug, couldn't he simply drill one or more small holes say 1/2" diameter to work as a pressure relief and simply spot weld them up when the job's done..? I would have thought it would be easier than cutting a plug out of the sidewall.
Eureka! After much effort and welding I was finally able to get the Idlers apart, my 20 Ton press was barely enough for the job! Pretty exciting when they let go... I also applied some heat with a tiger torch to get things moving. * my son was nowhere near the action when I was pressing the idlers apart * Welder Dave/Nige, Now that I have everything apart should I reassemble with the new parts prior to welding or assemble post welding? Thanks for the tip on drilling a hole to relieve pressure, I don't think i'll go any bigger than 1/2". The shaft and bushing carriers all look good so I should be able to get away with just changing seals and bushings. I'm glad I took this all apart, it's nice to see how things go together and it takes the mystery out of some of these components. All the tips are appreciated
Personally it makes sense to do the tread welding first and get all the heat out of the way before installing the new parts. Maybe you could take the opportunity to put the new bushes in the deep freeze and install them into the idler while it is still hot. The Duo-Cone seals I would leave until everything has cooled to ambient temperature. You have to take great care to get everything really clean (isopropyl alcohol works a treat) before installing the toric ring/steel ring assembly into the ramp where it mounts. Be aware that the sealing capabilty of the face seal is not caused by compression of the rubber rings but by them rotating up and down the ramp on which they are installed. This may give you some pointers. HeavyEquipmentForums IIRC Willie59 had a procedure for installing Duo-Cone seals without having to resort to the special tool. It involved a couple of ty-wraps if I remember correctly. Send him a PM if you're insterested.
We used to be able to get dry ice(CO2 Solid) from a ice shop near St.Charles MO, don't know if anyone still carries it but would make shrink fitting so much easier.
Drilling will probably be fine. It was 1981 when I went to a heavy equipment repair shop for work experience in high school and they cut a plug out but were running automatic sub-arc equipment. One of the things I did was press rollers apart for re-building/re-shelling. I think it was a 100 ton or so press. You would start pushing and the press would be making strange ping, ping, ping sounds then all of a sudden a big bang when it finally let loose. One of the things I learned there was to always lube O-rings when installing them. I would leave the idlers apart until after all the welding is done. The last you need is to have something go wrong and something gets damaged from spatter, etc. Somewhere like Praxair or other industrial gas supplier should have CO2 pellets. Even better is liquid nitrogen but you need an insulated dewar for that. The BE/Cat mining division up here used to get liquid nitrogen from the fill plant when I worked at air Liquide. It's about 250F colder than dry ice.
TBH if all that it needs is to release internal pressure even a 1/4" diameter hole should do the job. Also the welding method the OP is going to use will not generate the amount of heat that a submerged arc process would. The smaller the hole diameter the easier it will be to plug it once the tread has been welded. Liquid nitrogen would be the mutt's nuts for installing bushings, but you have to be very careful using it and as Dave says it needs a dewar flask to transport it. Dry ice pellets would be a close second. I still think that utilizing the heat of the welding process and chilling the bushing in the freezer ought to work to get them in. it doesn't sound as though the OP hads much of a problem getting the old ones out.
Well, I started welding tonight and it went quite well, drilled a quarter inch hole and didn't have any issues. Found some pretty nasty cracks in the idler but was able to repair them no problem. Very impressed with my Miller, never kicked out at all and i was welding pretty well constantly for two hours. The flux core was fabulous to work with, decided to go with the 101 as it had a tensile strength of around 100,00KSI. Took out some high spots with a flapper wheel, however the results overall were quite smooth and uniform. VERY hot on the hands, ended up wrapping my gloves with aluminium foil.
I found that the preheat was very important as some of the oil from the disassembly ended up on the steel and raised hell with the welding. I hit the problem areas again with the torch and that solved all my problems (I imagine i burned off the oil). My apologies for the sideways pictures i'm using the wife's MAC and its painful. VERY necessary welding consumables, smooth right out after a few beer!
Thanks for the info Dave, Unfortunately no one in the area has dry ice or liquid nitrogen available. Does anybody have any experience making dry ice with a C02 fire extinguisher? I have a massive C02 extinguisher from work and I plan on giving it a try. Say it works and I end up with some dry ice, whats the procedure for cooling off the part? How do you store the dry ice? Do you just pack the dry ice around the part? How long do you leave the part in with the dry ice? Thanks guys
You can order dry ice and have it delivered in a day or two. I have had good luck lining a wooden box with poly and filling it with methyl ethyl ketone. Then add the dry ice. The MEK won't freeze, and it cools the part you want to shrink in a short time. It is cold, but not so cold that it is dangerous to work with. Regards, Clark
I don't think you can make dry ice pellets from a cylinder. Co2 when discharged rapidly from a cylinder is very cold though. So much so that they make heated regulators so they don't freeze up when used for welding. Co2 is in a liquid state in the cylinder. What you could try is leave your parts in the fridge overnight and then just before installing them, blast them with the C02 to cool them even more. I guess it would be hard to weld the idlers circumferentially with out some kind of way to smoothly roll it but did you alternate sides when welding? I don't mean side to side but did you weld a few beads and turn the idler the 180 degs. and weld a few beads and then go at 90 degs. and 180 opposite of that to even the heat input?
One down and one to go! Thanks to everyone here on the forum for the assistance. I'm going to lay out a few points for the next poor bugger who can't afford new idlers and has to go through the process
General information on idler rebuilds 1 - Do not attempt any of this unless you have at LEAST a 20 Ton press than can accommodate an idler, I tried a very large hammer.... NO DICE 2 - Heat is your friend, I had my press maxed out and the only way to get anything to move was with a tiger torch 3 - Parts are fairly cheap for the rebuild and readily available 4 - make sure you check out this post from willie for the Duo cone seal install HeavyEquipmentForums 5 - You will need a fairly large mig welder with a hefty duty cycle, I achieved some decent results with Esab Dual shield II 101h4m Flux core wire .045 , many people recommended a hard facing wire however this was outside my budget. I will post a follow up to see how the weld hold up. 6 - Drill 1/4" hole in the side of the idler to relieve pressure before you get started, preheat is important (300 F) and be careful to keep oil off of the surfaces to be welded. 7 - I used a side to side weld pattern which achieved surprisingly uniform results, I would weld about 12" then rotate the wheel 180 degrees and weld another 12" to evenly disperse the heat. This seemed to work well as I did not have any stress cracks form. Circumferential welds would be optimal however unless you have a rig to rotate the wheel for you its not practical. 8 - Repair any cracks you find prior to welding the wear surfaces. 9 - be sure to press all the guts out prior to welding 10 - if you have more time than money then go for it!!
That's the one I was thinking of. It ought to be made a sticky so it's easy to find. A lot of people just don't understand how these steel face seals actually work.
I was able to make dry ice with the fire extinguisher which was cool, however the powder it produced did not have the desired effect on the parts i was trying to shrink. I ended up making around 5 pounds of dry ice and then packing it around the hubs in a Styrofoam cooler, the parts did seem extremely cold but were nowhere near small enough to drop in. Long story short I just put everything back together with the press, which wasn't bad at all. Fun experiment though! My son sure thought it was cool when I put a few chunks of dry ice in a glass of water
The Deere dealer I worked at the service shop was assembling an aftermarket CAT idler for me one day and the tech got a step ahead of himself, pressed one bushing holder in, flipped the wheel and pressed the other bushing holder in... then suddenly realized he had neglected to drop the idler shaft in before installing the second bushing holder. Took a couple hours of creative thinking and fabrication to extract one of the bushing holders I can tell you, not much room to work in there!
You have to be careful with Co2 and dry ice. Not only can it asphyxiate you, You can make bombs with it by putting water in a pop bottle, dropping in some dry ice and putting the cap on. It creates enough pressure to blow up the pop bottle. I wouldn't try this though as you don't want it to explode anywhere close to you.
Good Morning Gentlemen, Progress has been slow as of late, work has a way of really getting in the way of my hobbies. Also have been doing a bit of farming, looks like we might have a decent year plenty of rain at the right time. Anyway I have a few questions for the group. - I'll be changing the final drive fluid over the weekend and I have heard of rinsing the drive with kerosene prior to re-fill. Is this a common practice? or recommended? - Upon disassembly of the front idlers there was quite a few shims and what not. Do I just replace with the quantity that was originally there or should I check the alignment? See below for pic of shim placement - I'm pinching pennies on this job, i'm curious if I can use grade 8 bolts in place of the Cat parts? Also wondering if I can re-use segment bolts? The gentleman at the heavy duty parts shop gave me a strange look when I told him I was going to re- use the the segment bolts :eek2 All comments and opinions are welcome! Lantraxco, I find it hilarious that you mention the story about assembling the hubs without the shaft, I definitely can see it happening. I'll admit I did forget to install one O-ring on the shaft and had to tear off the bearing blocks one additional time, Extra parts are never good!! Welder Dave, You really shouldn't give me ideas like that! Now I have to try it.. Shims (or whats left of them)
1. You can flush with kerosene or diesel, it makes no difference. It's what we always did on contaminated final drives. 2. Wear will have taken place where the front idlers slide back and forth on the track frames. If you have the idler out it's always worthwhile to go through the shimming process on re-installation to make sure you take all the vertical & horizontal "slop" out of the idler. 3. Those bolts are torque-turn and as such are considered to have one life only. Junk them and fit new, it's likely that if you reuse the old bolts and even if you torque them exactly as per the procedure they will not retain tension for very long. Believe me you DO NOT want segments coming loose, it opens a whole new can of worms that really should be left well sealed.
Thanks for the info Nige, my penny pinching would have cost me dollars! I would imagine a segment coming off during operation would wreak substantial havoc
I think that if a segment came loose you would spot it long before it fell off. The problem is the welding & machining work required to rectify the mounting surface on the hub if a segment is loose for some time and frets. It would require a complete final drive disassembly. When installing the segments use genuine bolts and make sure that all the surfaces are clean, remove paint if there is any, and follow the lubrication and tightening procedure for the bolts to the letter. Someone can maybe help with that procedure, I'm not sure exactly what it is on your machine.
Well over the weekend I resumed the battle, thought I would share some pictures. Would be interesting to find out how that hole was punctured in the bucket.
I also drained out the Final drive fluid this weekend and was very happy to NOT find any chunks!! Hooray! So a little more info on the welding I ended up turning down my heat and wire speed on the second idler, a good welder buddy of mine came over and explained too much heat can wash out the welds (Too much puddling) The sweet spot for my setup was 23.2V and 339 on the wire, and believe it or not I went through exactly 1 - 50lb roll of wire. Also drilling out some bushings on the lathe
I am jealous, I still have a full time job, a farm to run and a new house I am finishing out. Project time takes second seat here!! My old Allis needs the right final pulled, resealed with sprocket replacement and then the spare rails I have installed, if time weld new grousers on the shoes from the old rails as none available new and few to none other than what I have available used. Hole is from another tractor or excavator trying to help the last guy to operate that machine, tooth hole as I have two on my spare bucket from moving a dead machine.
Makes perfect sense! I can see a tooth making a nice neat hole just like that. Yeah my time in the shop is precious that's for sure, I also do a bit of hobby farming and manage to hold down a full time job in the oilfield. What type of farming operation do you run? I'm curious is your Allis a power shift? What are the controls like? There are a few Allis Chalmers HD21's kicking around northern Alberta, I sure like the look of them and would love to have one parked in the back 40 you know just in case... Pretty sure the wife would divorce me if i came home with anymore projects. They are very inexpensive as compared to a D8, but I imagine parts availability would be an issue. This one is in southern Alberta for 4 grand not running, really nice lines good lookin tractor. The undercarriage looks great also Maybe get a couple of them and Fly Scrub Puller up to show us how to clear land with an Anchor chain! Boy what I wouldn't give to try that out! The wife would be thrilled bahahahah :yup
21's are a beast, can be readily repowered to Cummins or any other SAE 1 flywheel housing engine, running gear is specific to Allis as to rollers or idlers but Cat rails and other pieces can be installed with slight mods. Hate to say it but the old Allis days are numbered and falling faster where the remnant few will end up as display machines to a past day in some park or museum. Can only rebuild so many times with the limited parts still being made. Our farm is predominantly cattle, on lease to a neighbor that can run the numbers to make a profit work. I maintain the grounds as to chemicals, roadways, fence lines and fence materials as well clearing/grubbing as the scrub lines encroach on the pastures. Have a seriously nasty tree here called a Honey Locust, if can get the trunk cleaned off enough of spikes can make good pallet lumber for sawmills but the spikes are notorious as to tire killers, and skin poisoners(the tips break off under the skin and fester horribly). Mostly I fight to keep a few tens of acres clean enough to hay out and feed out cows/calves. Old 7G is a two speed power shift F and R, not as fast as a 955 but as versatile, controls were awkward when I first operated it but now am used to it. Shift is on the L as most are, horseshoe pattern with N to front; loader is different with large levers and long swings for leverage to overcome the fluid pressure while being able to regulate pretty smooth. I modded mine from three lever(bucket curl, shovel depth and 4/1) to two combining the shovel ops into one side to side and front to back. That process is not done yet as I have intentions to improve even what I have done. What was the pin and bushing from? I too make a few of my own parts, IE welder, lathe and mill.
I am late getting in on this so let me throw out some things I know. Steel mill rollers had different duo cone seal groups. The toric ring (rubber part) was a different material so they would not melt. I think they were yellow in color. I believe some of the upper pinion seal on the older oval track machines used this type seal also. Can't remember the type of material it was but it's in the Cat books somewhere. If you got the broken master pad bolts out of the links you the man because that is not an easy job. Here's the bad new on your tracks. Looking at post 25 your tracks links appear to be worn passed 100%. See how the metal is rolling up on the bottom. From where it's at now you should have about a inch more of metal there. On to the idler. I have pressed apart and assemble many idlers over the years but it was with a 100 ton up right press. Some of these were so tight you could see the side wall flexing down and when the bushing popped loose the entire press would jump off the ground and make one very loud boom but I think you had that experience. On assembling the idlers you did put new orings on the bushing housing? Where you idlers ride on the roller frames if it is worn down you should build that up and replace the wear strips on the collar and on the under side of the frame on the triangle bar that is welded to the inside of the frame. Those keep the idler from jumping up and down. How much oil did you put in the idlers? Standing vertically when you remove the plug oil should drain out. If it doesn't you need more in there. A little info on idlers. Almost all the idlers from D7 down to D3 are not rebuilt anymore due to the labor cost. With the majority of aftermarket idlers coming in from China and Korea they are too cheap compared to rebuilding. Another problem is the China and Korean idlers, while dimensionally correct on the outside many of them use metric measurements on the inside. You have done a good job on rebuilding your idler. Many people would not have even attempted to do this work. Hope all this help. James
Dmiller, The bushings are the spacers for the plates on the front idler assemblies, the bolts were rusted solid inside and had to be drilled out. I'm very fortunate to be set up with a lathe, mill and welder! Not much you can't fix with those three tools. Master Link, I appreciate the kind words and yes the bushings have all been replaced in my idlers, I was surprised upon disassembly at how simple of a design the idler bearings are. The master link bolts had to be one of the most miserable jobs and barely worth it as I am aware of how wore the track chains are, however at this time the funds simply aren't there to replace them. Everyone, After much blood sweat and tears the beast lives again! Operates very well so far, impressed with the power. Still some minor leaks to be sorted out but its very workable. A few pictures below of some clearing I did over the weekend The welds on the idlers are starting to wear in nicely Here is a list of the work that was performed to get this old girl back up to fighting condition. If anyone has questions or needs any pointers please do not hesitate to ask. - Front Idlers removed re-bushed and weld build up performed - Tracks removed and seized master link bolts removed - main bucket tilt bearings removed and replaced. - 6 Bottom rollers replaced - Rear segments replaced - Coolant replaced and rad flushed with dishwasher detergent. - Transmission cooler removed and cleaned - Straight piped the exhaust - All belly pans removed and pressure washed entire unit - Engine oil change - Transmission fluid changed along with filters, magnetic screens cleaned - Final drive fluid changed - Removed all track guards and replaced seized/broken studs - Hydraulic filters changed - Re-shimmed front idlers I'd like to thank everyone for the invaluable assistance and information that has been supplied on this forum, it warms my heart to know that there are individuals out there willing to help out a complete stranger they've never met only because they share similar interests.
Loading Dirt last night
I don't know if it has, was or worth saying, but the idlers can be fitted upside down as the axle shaft is located in the blocks with an offset hole, the shaft should be in the low position, I hope this script is wasted and you have this task sorted correctly. well done on the effort front tctractors
Tctractors, I doubt there is very much if any wasted script on this forum from you, seems most everyone enjoys your verbs. Thanks for the heads up I went and double checked the orientation of those blocks and i'm sure the orientation is correct, however I can definitely see how they can be put in upside down.
On another Note my track chains on this unit are SHOT, after pricing out a new set at 16,000 CAD I was hoping to complete a few small jobs with the unit to offset the cost. I'd like to hear a few opinions on what kind of life I can expect (if any)out of the current running gear on the unit. My greatest fear is to have the unit on a job and have a chain come apart. If anyone has a ballpark guess at how long the chains might last it would be helpful. The machine will be used in mainly dirt conditions and will likely not see any sand or gravel. Thanks Everyone
The 1st photo the track shoe bolts appear to be too long, they poke out of the nuts too far. Also it appears as though the shoe is loose, there is a mark between the link and the shoe.
Check the flange edges on your rollers, back in my day the way to 'extend' them was to take a gas axe and trim the flange back toward the rolling face, kept the flange from digging on the pin bosses. At least it was SALT rail on the machine, probably long gone dry in a few links.
I'm no expert but I personally wouldn't be afraid to run it for awhile. With a little luck you should be able to run it long enough to cover the cost of new chain and sprocket segments. If the machine is mainly going to be used for grubbing and clearing trees, you might consider putting some single bar grouser pads on it when the time comes to put new chains on. It can be pretty impressive what those tractors will do with a little more traction. I don't think I would do it though if it was mainly loading trucks. Just my $.02
You're talking this part here? I can see on some of the other links that its causing them to jam
Thanks bam1968! I'm hoping to get a little use out of them. Does the use of the single bar pads have any ill effects on the finals?
Hi Nige, Yeah they do seem long, that shoe was loose and I actually just replaced the old bolts because they wouldn't tighten up. It's tight now
A tip with loose shoes is that they must be removed and the mating surfaces of the top of the link and the bottom of the shoes thoroughly cleaned. Any dirt in there and the shoes will loosen again in short order, no matter how hard you tighten the bolts. Single or double grousers will make no difference to the finals, although grouser height is critical, it shouldn't be too high. Single grousers was an option on the machine anyway way back in time.
Rusted, its easy to comment and find fault with somebody's efforts, even easier if they are not skilled at the task, anyhow the rollers should have been fitted with the oil fill plugs facing out, it's not the end of the World to get this detail off but now you know for next time, the front idler's have a filler plug in the centre shaft, this should be located to be seen fully through the hole in the guide plate, on dozer's this plate has an elongated hole in to check for High Set or Low Set of the idler, credit to you Sir for making the effort and doing a good little job with what you can afford. tctractors
Thanks TC Makes perfect sense to have the oil holes on the out side, and like you say I will know for next time. I really do enjoy working on these machines and with constructive comments such as the ones above it allows me to become more skilled every time I tackle a new aspect of the trade, much obliged.
As Nige stated, the grouser height is what can be detrimental to the finals. A guy I worked for years ago had a 977L 11K that had a dozer blade on it most of the time. It had single bar pads that were pretty aggressive ( maybe 3-3.5" grouser height). He just figured on going through the finals every winter during the off season.
So just out of curiosity how does grouser height affect the finals?
On a dozer not so much a issue as they are designed to shove, a lot. On loaders they lift and carry the load so if grousers are too aggressive they will side load the rollers and undercarriage equipment worse than that of a dozer. You bury the bucket in a product and the converter does not slip enough the rails draw up trying to counter-slip, finals take the beating.
x2 . I was once told that a 977L 11k was basically a D7 with D6 final drives and the 977L 14x had heavier final drives than the 11k. Hopefully someone a lot smarter than me will confirm that or correct me if I'm wrong. Just my $.02
Bam, Did some checking with my parts book and all the final drive parts on this unit come up as D6 parts. You are 100% Correct (From what I can tell)
one additional thing to look at on these old 977 machines is underneath,in the center,the loader tower(or frame the loader arms pin to) cracks form in the tower frame on the bottom outside edges right thru..Remove the skid plates in the rear and center and if your machine is already cracked,you should be able to see it pretty easy laying underneath it.It was common on demolition machines or rock quarry duty that had a lot of pounding done to them.Its December right now and cold but my 977 has a big spring overhaul due to it,frame cracks underneath as above,steer clutches both sides and crossshaft bearing upgrade.She's laying dormant in the barn right now LOL