Hey guys. I had a thread a couple months ago trying to decide between a new 259D3 and a t66. I went with the T66, but long story short the lead times are really long and I'm about to pull the hammer on a 2020 259D3 locally and cancel the BC order just because I sold mine and am without a machine right now. I haven't been in a CAT for 4 years. -I was hoping for the automatic ride control, I was going to order the option on the new CAT I was looking at buying. I didn't see the switch. It is also missing the "2 speed" sticker but assume it was just washed off. Is there a way to verify options based on the serial number of the machine somewhere? -One thing I noticed, is it seems when you go to lift and lower the bucket, the lift cylinder where it connects to the lift arms kicks to the side maybe 3/4" on the pin when the bucket is lowered. Is this normal? Picture attached. -Anything in particular to look out for on these? I somewhat know the owner and he seems like an honest guy. He said there have been speed sensor errors pop up a few times. Is this indication of the drive motor sensor going out or is it an error that just "happens" sometimes? -I guess the backup camera just automatically pops up when it goes in reverse? Excuse my ignorance on this one, I always added CabCams to my other machines on a separate screen that was "live" all the time. Thanks in advance!
Seems like a common thing with the arm lift cylinders on Cats. There aren't shims for those cylinders, at least as far as I'm aware. The drive motors do seem to be a weak point on Cat tracked machines. Seen issues with the flushing spool in the motors lots. It was available seperately though. Bear in mind as a mechanic, we only see the broken machines. I have no idea how common drive motor issues are out in the real world overall, only that it was one of the more common issues we'd repair at the shop. Actual feedback from an owner would probably be more insightful.
Not all machines are sold as 2-Speed. With a S/No it's easy to check if a particular machine was built with 2-speed or not. Same comment applies to auto-level. Anecdotal information seems to suggest that any sort of particles stuck on the nose end of the speed sensor will throw up faults that can come & go. The solution appears to be change the final drive oil on a regular basis. Many people do it every time the engine oil is changed. Black oil in the finals is not a good sign of regular oil changes...!! The oil is a synthetic SAE75W/140 (there is NO substitute) and it takes 1 litre per side. FYI new travel motors are now close to $6k a side.
I believe the speed sensor is located in the motor itself on those assemblies. Usually see chunks when the flushing spool shims start coming apart. There was an update on that spool, no idea if it was better as I left shortly after the new parts were released. I have seen the 2 speed piston in the motor go out before. The bore in the housing itself gets oblonged/ridged. Motor will still kick into high speed but it will lag a bit and cause a noticeable mistrack to the bad side when shifting on the fly but will even out once the piston unsticks.
I agree, but isn't it also exposed to the oil in the final drive as well.?
I don't believe so. From what I remember the sensor only has the one o-ring on it and any time I've pulled it I believe it was hydraulic oil that weeped out the hole.
In that case I stand corrected. I'd recommend pulling the sensors and cleaning the nose end. I guess a lot depends on the cleaniliness of the hydraulic oil in that case. The comment regarding frenquent final drive oil changes still applies though. Confirmed the oil is an API GL-5 synthetic, SAE 75W/140. I was wrong, most recent price on a new final - $7200.
You guys are awesome. Thank you for the help. The S/N for reference is CW905975. The research I have done lead to replacing the sensor and seeing if there are still issues, the harness itself getting rubbed from debris up against it and exposing wires, or the motor itself going out. He said drive motor oil was done @ 250hr intervals along with the normal fluid changes. The machine has 1630 hours on it, and unfortunately is out of warranty due to age (2yr/2000hr warranty I assume). A warranty could still be added but if I remember correctly only covers the powertrain and no electronics. The price for it did not seem cheap though. EDIT: Over $7k for a final drive, ouch! Maybe that warranty is worth looking into if this is a common failure. Honestly, I will be putting 100-150hrs/yr on it around our place doing odds and ends with occasional yard shaping and grading for people. It'd take me 3 years to get it to 2,000hours.
Definitely want to watch the drive motor hoses where they pass through the frame. They always rub there. I'd armor those hoses every time I replaced them. On the rental fleet I'd pull the covers on the frame and inspect the hoses after each rental. If you keep on top of it and replace the hose protectors when they wear thin the hoses will last a long time.
Machine CW905975 was built with both 2-speed and auto-level ex-factory. It was also built with the RH Advanced Display Panel which is a major bonus for you when looking at machine Events or Diagnostic Codes. I would suggest to have the current owner show you what Logged Events/Diagnostic Codes are registered in the RH panel. If you are worried about speed sensor issues look specifically for anything with E568, E569, 2685, 2686, 2687, or 2688. TBH I would not suggest loading the parts cannon just yet as far as speed sensors/wiring go. Find out what Codes/Events are Active (as opposed to Logged/historical), troubleshoot them correctly and that will lead to the root cause of what's wrong. The speed sensors are not cheap.........
Thank you again, guys. Honestly, the machine is pretty darn clean (not clean at all as I looked at it on a job site) but seems like it would clean up well without the paint falling off. A huge thing for me is there are globs of grease all over it. I would rather have this any day than something that doesn't get greased. They are an excavation company that has to have stuff in warranty as they can't afford downtime. It gets greased every morning. Thanks for looking up the serial number. Dumb question, what does ex-factory mean? Auto level is different than auto ride control, right with auto level doing just that - leveling the bucket on either lift or lower? (or both, don't remember which was which between Cat and Bobcat) I will write down those codes and look for them. Other than checking pin play I didn't actually move the machine around. It was on the site at a homeowners house and didn't feel right doing so. Are any of those, in particular, that should make me walk on the deal? I think the price is fair for the hours and year. The rear camera just pops up on the panel when going in reverse, or is it something to manually enable?
As originally built - by Cat in this case. There is a record of the accessories/options fitted to every machine as it leaves the factory production line but any changes made after that time are not documented. In my opinion no. All 6 of them only relate to speed sensor and/or wiring issues which are usually perfectly solvable - probably quite cheaply. Best case scenario the problem could be nothing more than a wiring harness connector with condensation or corrosion in it, or the nose of a sensor needing cleaning. I may be wrong but IIRC the exhaust aftertreatment system is warranted separately to the machine for 5yr/3000 hours whichever comes first, and that warranty is not limited to the original owner.
Perfect, thank you!
From what I can see your machine is fitted with what Cat calls I-LEV (intelligent bucket levelling). See attachment. Ride Control is one of the few options it doesn't seem to have, although I suggest you should speak to the seller and ask because RC is available as an add-on kit as well as being available factory-fitted to a new machine. The specification list of the machine is impressive. It is equipped with a lot of optional features not fitted to many machines.
Never operated the machines much with ride control on. Was only ever plowing snow in the yard and it doesn't work well for that. Did get a literal TON of service calls because "the loader arms are going crazy." The ride control will automatically lift the loader arms up several inches once the machine reached a certain ground speed and then they'll float along. A lot of operators would freak out thinking the machine was broken lol.
Auto ride control seemed nice as occasionally I have to move material a little ways with rough terrain. I had it quoted with the other machine, it was a $1,000 option. Bobcat has the same thing and it seemed nice. I'm sure it's fine without it. I bet it is a little odd when the arms raise some to compensate for the buffer at a certain speed. Nige, would you be willing to send over an options list of what this machine has? I'm guessing it would be a H2 C3 but just to have for documentation as well.
I'll send you it on a message.
Good morning and happy Friday guys. I got the machine home last night. It was late so didn't get much time to mess with it. There few things I need to address right off the bat. Boy, do I have some reading to do on these. Going from BC to CAT is going to take a bit to get used to again. The backup camera and backup alarm do not work. The alarm is no big deal, but I need the camera. Both fuses appeared good in the box. I pulled the side cover and boot off the joystick and did not see any sort of sensor or limit switch that would trigger the backup camera. When you go in reverse, nothing happens in terms of the display not changing. It was ~35degrees last night. When the machine sits and idles, it will rev to a very high idle and stay there randomly. As soon as you kick the parking brake off, it returns back to normal. Is this "normal"? I checked the codes. No active, but two errors were stored. The "!" was illuminated, I assume this is due to the two stored errors? No way to clear this? They were: E875-2 (Machine) - Low system voltage - check the battery and alternator. I will stick a meter on the battery after it was off overnight, and check it running. I assume it should be pushing ~13.5-14.4V or so running, 12.4-12.8V when off. E569-2 (Machine), one of the ones Nige said to look for - Unexpected left motor reverse speed detected, check the motor speed sensor and wiring
They will rev up on their own. Completely normal. It does that in order to keep it warm. Running at idle is hard on the engine and aftertreatment. How cold does it typically get in your region? Cat does have some cold weather options that are highly recommended if you see cold weather often. Crankcase vent system heaters and a rear door cover. I've seen a couple blown engines because the crankcase system plugged with ice.
OK sounds good. We are in Missouri so it's all over the place. Typically, the coldest it will be used in is 15-20ish Fahrenheit in the winter and up to 100 in the summer. We had wind chills at -30F for several days earlier this season but I'm not going out in it. The coldest it will be used very much in is 25-30 degrees. Otherwise, something very short-term for hitting the neighborhood driveways for snow a couple of times per season.
I can't pull up any info related to the cold weather options but I think you may be getting into the temperature range where the heaters are recommended. Someone with SIS can probably pull up that service letter.
While the weather is cold try covering the majority of the area above the cooling package with a sheet of cardboard with a hole cut in it to allow a small amount of air through. Align the hole with the centre of the fan to avoid stresses caused by the fan blades bending.
Sounds good, I will give that a shot. Do you guys have any ideas on the rear camera, or how it should be triggered for that matter? I did not see any mechanical switches to adjust around the joystick. Nige, what you expected before on the error code present? Last final drive change was 100 hours ago. I suppose I could change it just to know the condition as well. I need to do some reading on if that is why the "!" is currently on, with it having an event log.
Is the manual in the pocket in the back of the seat.? If it is I suggest to have a good look at the function of the asterisk and what it means. There will be all sorts of combinations of amber, red, flashing/not flashing, accompanied by the audible alarm or not. You need to identify which one you have and what exact conditions are required to generate it..
Rear camera I’ll have to look at the diagnostics for it. I’ll send you an electrical schematic which might help you to troubleshoot it. From memory I think the camera is activated by the machine ECM based on signals from the speed sensors (and others) that indicates the machine is moving in reverse.
Sounds good, thanks! That sounds expensive though.. hoping it is something simple. Yes it is. There was nothing I saw on the camera, but I will check for info on the asterisk. I wish they gave you a copy on the CD (appears to only be the parts manual on the CD) so I don't have to sit in the cab to flip through the book.
The CD that comes with the machine is only the Parts Manual. If you want the O&M Manual on a CD ask your dealer for a price based on the reference number in the top RH corner of the cover (M0091175 I think). Or try here for a genuine Cat manual. they seem to be cheaper than Cat at the moment - https://www.servicemanualpro.com/?page=Products&searchbox=CW905975
I was wrong regarding the camera. It is powered permanently provided the key switch is on. These camera systems are obviously not as sophisticated as the larger machines.
Cat makes a rear door cover kit. Its a vinyl cover that will close off about 80% of the rear door.
There are a number of references to said kit(s) because there is more than one listed. Unfortunately nothing shows up for a CW9-prefix 259D3. Rear Door Kit Part Numbers I can see are 452-2243, 452-0539, & 541-3141, The kit for the crankcase breather heater appears to be 466-1959. You would have to ask your dealer what Part Numbers are recommended for your particular machine.
IIRC there were 2 heaters on most units. Pretty simple, plug and play from what I remember.
Little update, the low voltage has popped up several times. The machine is at 12.1v overnight, and quickly comes up to 14.5v after running for a short time. Wondering if my battery is failing. With the help of Nige, I was able to spin my head looking at wiring schematics. The camera is actually "live" all the time, or should be, and not just when going in reverse like I originally thought. The relay for the backup alarm was kicking on when going in reverse so the signal is being generated. I'm getting constant 12V at the camera. I'm thinking it could be the camera itself at this point.
Check the co-ax cable between the camera and the display in the cab. Not easy I know.
I'm actually going to whack the easy button and borrow a working camera of another 259d3 locally. If that does or does not work I'll know if it's hardware or time to trace wires
That works. Not many people have that option available.......
12.1 volts just sitting is pretty much considered flat. You can try and put it on charge for a few hours and load test it to see if its still good.
14.5v indicates that apparently the alternator is charging satisfactorily. A fully-charged "12v" battery should be somewhere around 12.6v or better, even after having been left to sit overnight.
Hey guys. Between the extremely helpful info from Nige and 92u 3406, figured I might try sneaking a couple more things in here rather than a new thread. I've been using the machine and working through issues as I go. There were quite a few logged events and diagnostics codes. A buddy is a mechanic at a local excavation company so hooked his laptop up. We decided to clear all stored as most were old. 1- The only active code is a "3700-3 loader bucket inclinometer sensor voltage above normal". I expected this to be a broken wire but did not see any. I got in the machine and rolled the tilt forward and back. The numbers were acting very strange. The tilt lever percentage was all over the place. Would this only monitor the joystick position though, or are one of these a current reading of that tilt sensor? Long story short, other than pinning out wires to check individual continuity through the wires from the plug back to the ecm, since I don't know which wires they are on that end yet, I'm trying to determine if a sensor is needed before spending $350. 2- there was a logged (Not current) code with 2 instances about low oil pressure. This was red, i assume level 3 alarm. All others showed an hour at which they occurred and this one did not. On the engine parameters, the "engine oil pressure status" said "unavailable parameter". Possible bad oil pressure sensor, and worth just replacing for how cheap they should be? (it does say cat though, so who knows)
Attached the troubleshooting for the 3700-3 Diagnostic Code. The oil pressure alarm is not on a sensor. It is triggered by a Normally Closed switch that opens with rising oil pressure. TBH on that small of an engine the failure to change the oil & filter in a timely fashion using decent quality products is probably the likely cause of low oil pressure events. The reason it says "unavailable parameter" on the Status screen is down to the fact there is no pressure sensor. Because the low oil pressure signal is generated by a switch all it could say is "OK" or "Low" depending on the status of the pressure switch. If your mechanic friend can get back to the machine at some point ask him to download a Product Status Report in pdf format using ET. Send it to me on a PM if you like. Got a photo of the screen showing the low oil pressure Event.? Was it E360-2 or E360-3.? Just so you understand the difference between Diagnostic Codes and Events. A Diagnostic Code is created when some electronic component registers a fault that either prevents the machine from operating correctly or prevents an operator warning (Event) being generated. An Event is when all the electronics are working correctly but some parameter of the machine goes out of the permitted range, as in the case of your Oil Pressure Event.
Thank you for all of that info. I did not know the difference between the events and diagnostics, but it makes sense now. I skimmed the bucket troubleshooting log but will print it out tomorrow and begin testing. Very helpful. It's actually a 100-1 code. See attached. I didn't see any event codes related to this. He is headed out of town but I'll see if he can hook up to it again sometime. Once I get the tilt position resolved I want to make sure that's cleared to see if it comes back as well. Thanks a million Nige.
I can see the logic of that, it's still an Event though, not a Code. 100 is listed as the engine oil pressure sensor (variable output type as opposed to on/off switch) despite the fact this machine doesn't have one. I think that is a function of fact that the J1939 list does not have a separate parameter for an oil pressure switch. 100-1 is actually a J1939 Event in the engine ECM, sometimes referred to as a SPN (Suspect Parameter Number). See attached. When it comes to testing the oil pressure I would warm the engine up first (Step 3) before removing the switch and installing the pressure gauge. Take care not to burn yourself.
I will do that this weekend. I need to get an oil pressure gauge first. Lots to do. This is somewhat concerning as I really hope there is nothing (major) wrong with it. All fluids/filters were changed ~50 hours ago. It has Mobil Delvac 5w40. Is it possible that since this isn't in "Active", it just happened sometime over the life of the machine if the PO was on a steep hillside or something and not a current issue? I am going to go through all the tests and send off an engine oil sample anyway just so I can sleep at night now!
Is 5w40 on the recommended oil chart? I don't remember that being an option. CAT Fluid Selector www.catfluidselector.com
You are correct. I take it back. Previous owner just confirmed Rotella 15w40.
Is the DEO-ULS 15w-40 synthetic?
It no say, so, presumably not?
No, but you have to be careful to ask the right question. There are two types of DEO-ULS for use in the latest generation of emissions-controlled engines. The basic version DEO-ULS as illustrated by HMC above, and the synthetic version DEO-ULS SYN. https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20201119-bb513-59627
Yes, very common. There is a short link called i think the NL link. Extremely common failure point on these machines. The pin at the top has a socket head screw which retains the link to the arm group. Check it every time you grease it. The play in this link is where the slop in the arms comes from.
Thanks Mike! I will keep an eye on it.
So all was good in troubleshooting the tilt sensor. I determined power is getting to the sensor and grounding correctly. I ran into issues when the ECM became involved. This is embarrassing...where is the dang ECM? Usually back on the cold side of the engine, aren't they?? Very good chance I was hungry, tired, and delirious as well though, and missed it.
You have the electrical schematic, no.? Check out the illustration title "Cab - Rear View" on Page 1. It's reference #8. Have fun getting at it..........
I came across this. I know you were asking about why it happens. "The machine software automatically elevates engine idle speed when the system battery voltage is below a specific threshold for a specific length of time. When the Machine ECMs battery voltage is less than 13.2V for 1 minute, or less than 12.8V for 15 seconds, the engine low idle speed will be elevated to 1400 RPM. The idle speed will remain elevated at 1400 RPM until the Machine ECM battery voltage is greater than 13.8V for 1 minute, greater than 14.0V, or the arbitrated throttle engine speed goes above 1400 RPM."
Nige, I do thanks to you. I was just going through that a little bit ago. I assume it's "8- control GP - Machine". I should have mentioned that before I guess. For some reason I was thinking it was in back by the engine. I saw "186-Control GP - Engine" listed but wasn't sure. This should be fun then... haha. Will give me an excuse to clean out under the cab as I just finished up some landscaping at the house and am sure it's pretty dusty under there again. So as far as elevated idle, what you mentioned makes perfect sense. In the software I did see 3 things- something about: Cold elevated idle Low voltage elevated idle I do not remember the last. Regen maybe? Anyway, it was 70 degrees out and it had been running for several minutes. It began idling up so I expected that low voltage elevated idle to be active. It was actually the cold elevated idle. It did its thing for a minute or two, idled back down and that active status or whatever it is called turned back off. I was surprised, but cool to see what it was actually doing it for as well. That CAT ET is pretty cool. Wish I had it or could justify it.
That'll be it. The last one will only apply to a machine with an exhaust aftertreatment system. Seeing as you had mentioned battery voltages earlier, when I came across the above it seemed to explain why your machine was apparently randomly idling up.
Those machines idle up all the time, I was told it was to keep the catalyst hot. On a cold start it will idle until the water temp gets to 100*, then it will run up to high idle. When running the machine, unless its really hot and the machine is real hot, it will idle up if it sits at low idle for a few minutes. In short, they don't like to idle. The only way I have seen mine idle for any length of time is in the summer when it is real hot and the air conditioning is running on high. As long as the air is on high it seems to load it enough to keep it from idling up.