Have a 310b with 4 in 1 bucket that has broken in one corner and other corner is not far behind. There’s a lot of deterioration and there’s a pocket for moist dirt to rest that doesn’t help. It’s in a pretty high stress area due to the cylinders being mounted there. I’m thinking it will need the cracks cleaned and welded. Some plates for reinforcement would be good too but I don’t know if that’s overkill. Does this seem right? What type of steel for reinforcement is best? Should I reinforce outside and inside? Best welding rod for stick welder?
Here is all kinds of bucket welding advice. HeavyEquipmentForums
Thanks for the thread link, lots of thorough information. Looks like; Bucket is mild steel V notch the crack Drill holes at the end of the crack Preheat metal Use 7018 rod preferably or 6013 rod second Weld mild steel plate over crack
7018 and a gusset in the second pic. between the bucket and that thick metal shoulder.
Are you thinking to angle a gusset from bucket to the shoulder where the cylinder mounts? (Kinda same angle as bottom piece?)
NO NO NO to 6013. About the only thing they are good for is sheet metal and I'd still probably use something different. Maybe 6010 or 6011 for a root pass covered by 7018. Your bucket broke, you want to use a rod designed for dynamic and cyclic loading. 7018 and maybe a little preheat is what to use. If you don't have enough experience it might be better to just hire an experienced welder. This is something you want to fix right the 1st time.
Thanks for all the replies. 7018 rod it is. I will do and provide what I can, but the actual welding will be by someone else. We’ve talked a little but I wanted to have an idea of the type of steel I have, best welding rod and advice on plates, gussets etc.
Nothing special with the steel unless you're talking about a bolt on cutting edge. They can be heat treated steel and require different rods and welding techniques. On the back where the steel ripped open, you'll probably need to heat it to push it back in place. Bevel the edges for the best penetration. After welding grind it flat and put an oval shaped plate over top of the repair extending 2-3 inches past the repair. Drilling holes isn't really necessary on mild steel. Grinding out and getting all of the crack is though. Good to go 1/2in to an inch past where the crack looks to end. When possible weld in from each end of cracks so you don't leave a weld crater where the crack ended. Vertical up is the exception so that's when it's good to make sure to go past where the crack ended. Just use common sense with gussets and reinforcing plates. You don't need to go overboard. 1/4in or even 3/16in steel will be adequate for gussets or reinforcing plates. Gussets would help where it's broken by the cylinder mount. Just make sure everything is lined up straight and the gussets don't interfere with the cylinder or hoses.
Lets discuss that for a minute. Dave is right, you can go overboard. I was welding up tube connections with collars added on a heavy box blade once and a much older guy said "don't collar all those joints, it will be too strong and something much more expensive will break next time." That was some really good advice. Much easier to weld a connecting joint on a box blade than the lugs mounted to a differential housing on a 90 hp tractor.
Any 60xx rod is better than the steel in you buckets so if you like welding with 6013 have at it just make sure you grind the crack so you start welding at the bottom. grinding the crack out is all the preheat you will need. Most of the repair welding done with 7018 is because it is an iron powder rod giving a better deposit rate not because of some magical properties . Bob
Sorry but if a bucket is broken and needs repairs had to have some pretty dynamic loads applied to it. Whether it was from abuse or not built strong enough, 6013 is not ever the electrode of choice as is not designed for dynamic loading. It is for static loading which means it just sits there and there are better choices. It is commonly used for sheet metal and often called famer rod because it is easy to burn on a buzz box. 7014 is considered an iron powder electrode and is also not for dynamic loading. 7018 is classified as a low hydrogen electrode and designed for dynamic and cyclic loading. It is well established as the electrode of choice for equipment repairs. It has nothing to do with higher deposition rates, it's the best choice of electrode! 7028 is a low hydrogen electrode with added iron powder for higher deposition rates but only in flat and horizontal position. Tensile strength alone is not the determining factor is choosing the proper electrode for an application. You want the best chance of a successful repair, use 7018.
Dave if bullship was music you would be a Brass band. Bob
More like welding 101.
The suggestions make a lot of sense. I tend to ‘throw a little extra’ into things, but this gives me confidence. Some take-sways for me: Grinding a little past the crack-seems like it makes sure we get all of the crack out. Oval plate 2-3” larger-oval seems stronger (circle vs square), mimics the crack and could shed water better. Packing of dirt and holding moisture is what weakened and caused this I believe 1/4” plate- the bucket might only be 1/4” but I’ll check I like to tackle things myself if I can or try to understand what someone is doing for me. Thanks for the advice
I always thought 6011 was Farmer rod
6011 is sometimes referred to as farmer rod too. It is the best choice for dirty, painted or rusty steel that is difficult to clean. It has the best penetration of the mild steel rods and is basically an AC version of 6010. It is designed for dynamic loads but not as strong or as ductile as 7018. Some specialty rods are even more ductile than 7018 where ultimate strength is required. These rods are typically stainless based and quite pricey. Welding a heat treated cutting edge may be an application for specialty rods.
Here is some good info on 6011. I have used a lot of it myself. Mostly have run it on DC+, but it's considered an all polarity rod. https://www.weldingmania.com/stick/6011-welding-rods/
I disagree that the dirt, moisture and corrosion caused this. That rust at the bottom is a coincidence. The crack at the top is caused by a poor design of that hydraulic cylinder mount allowing too much flex of the thin plate. If it was me, I'd farmer weld it with 6011, so everything is as it was originally, then put a plate on the bottom that's rusted out, and another plate on the inside over the part that's rusted out and out 2" from the cylinder mount boss. Then tap that plate for a zerk, fill it with grease, remove the zerk and weld over the hole, or put the zerk in from behind and leave it for the next guy to scratch his head over. You might have to heat it to get it back into shape. Tack everything and try the function of the bucket before finishing welding and putting the plates on. Don't be afraid to cut good metal to get it to go back exactly as it was, it's easier to re weld than to try to bend it back sometimes. I don't know what that was welded with originally, but it was probably 60,000 PSI wire weld, no stronger than 6011, and it didn't fail from the weld, it failed from design. A half decent repair with 6011 will last just fine in this application. You can see that it's been cracked for a while, catch those cracks earlier and even bubble gum welding will last just fine, save a lot of work bending it back also. Welder Dave is right on rod preference, but this isn't a critical weld, it's very unlikely to fail again from 6011 vs 7018. I bet if you look at later models with a similar bucket, they'll have a better mount design. Like the mount will continue further up the bucket, and/or spread the force out over a plate.
my two cents: That did not crack out all at once. Usually stuff like that starts cracking and flexing and tearing apart over a few to a few hundred cycles. After you fix it keep a sharp eye on it. It may crack again, but if it is still in one piece it will be much less trouble to patch.
The info posted in that article is contrary to what 6011 was designed for. Yes it has deep penetration but was originally designed as alternative to 6010 that could be used on AC current. It is not designed to be used on DC-. It doesn't have quite as much penetration as 6010 but generally has a smoother arc. Misinformation is common on the internet and it can be difficult to know what to believe. Listing 6011 as all polarity puts in question the validity of the person who wrote it. It is quite common to weld groove welds with a 6010/6011 to get full penetration followed by 7018. If the person doing the repair is capable, 7018 will give the strongest repair. The most important aspect is having the required skill though. Have seen too many times where someone thinks because they have a welder, they can do all their repairs. On critical stuff get someone experienced. Not a lot different than doing your own oil changes and basic maintainence but getting a mechanic to do major repairs.
So Buckshot, Lincoln and Hobart don't know what they're talking about either hu they both sell 6011 they claim can run DC or AC ? Bob
Whats up with the name calling ? Sheesh !! Time to close this thread, IMHO.
I said 6011 it's not designed for DC-. I didn't say DC in general. Anybody with any welding knowledge knows about polarity.
Like Lincoln and Hobart they both sell 6011 that is AC or DC+or- maybe you should brush up on polarity. Bob
Hobart® 335A - Product Details - Hobart Brothers
You do realize DCEP means either polarity right ? Bob
It means Direct Current Electrode Positive. Also commonly referred to as reverse polarity. Either polarity
The pocket in original post picture #4 shows a pocket of sorts and shows daylight through. Also the pocket had kinda sheets of rust that was removed when i pressure washed the machine. I’m thinking rust surely contributed to this but wasn’t the cause. The bottom of the cylinder is almost on a post except for the gusset in between the outside part. Could have been designed better as was pointed out by others. Here’s pictures of a Cat 416 that appears to be a better design and has survived since ‘87 while my backhoe is an ‘83. I’ll look at supporting that area better. Some of this may have been described previously by others, but I sometimes have a harder time understanding text compared to drawings or pictures. Oddly the bottom part of my cylinder doesn’t have a grease fitting or hole where one goes. So I’m interested in the grease fitting idea Delmer had but I’m not sure I understand.
I mentioned a grease fitting just to put some grease between the plate and the original, so you don't make another pocket to fill up with dirt and rust. Not needed at all, but it won't hurt and it's easy to do. Don't worry about the cylinder pin either, use an oil can on it and it will outlast you and me without any slop that will matter. I agree, the cat cylinder mount is much better designed. I figure you don't have to make something this old perfect, just better enough than it was to last long enough. A small plate inside the bucket and some weld built up to form a gusset on the outside should be plenty.
You could spray dry graphite on the bottom cylinder pin and bushings. Would make it easy to pull the pin if you ever had to.
Just curious Dave, what is " dry graphite spray ". I'm aware of graphite grease used for high temp's but you have me puzzled with this dry spray.
There's several brands of it. Graphite Extreme lubricant | Jig-A-Loo (jigaloo.ca) Dry Lube | Dry Lubricant Spray | LIQUID WRENCH
Dry moly spray is another option for dry pins.
what is best rod to use when welding stainless steel to carbon steel, using a AC/DC buss box
Here is the tractor supply version. They stock it at my store. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ez-slide-graphite-based-coating-12-oz-aerosol
Our Carquest has CRC version, TSC doesn’t stock it. But the other brands are available. I found a can of CRC lubricant that was probably 30 years old and still worked. Oddly I remember it had a kinda appealing smell! Mechanics I used to be around always seem to prefer CRC products.
Thanks for the tip on the dry graphite. I have several areas in addition to the 4 in 1 bucket cylinders that pivot with no grease fittings available; the outriggers , the curl pin on backhoe, maybe one on the front bucket linkage too, as well as the shifter, accelerator and probably a few I can’t recall now
Use 309 stainless electrodes for welding stainless steel to mild steel. 312 will also work but is more expensive. If you only need a few rods you could use specialty rods designed for welding difficult to weld steels, spring steel and broken bolt removal. These rods are stainless based and similar to 312 stainless. Tensile strength is 120 to 130,000 psi. Most welding supplies will have a display with small packages of specialty rods. You don't want to buy 5kg(10lbs.) packs of stainless rods when you only need to weld a few inches.
If the situation allows, tig welding with 309 in 1/16" has been my go to when welding unknown steels for many years. Always have that on hand.
THANKS FOR REPLIES
I found this 309 rod on Ebay. This rod or a similar one should work on your stick welding machine. https://www.ebay.com/itm/293700597527?hash=item4461eb7717:g:7IcAAOSwX4BfQCzE
One of the experienced Tig welders on the Welding Web swears by 312 stainless for any difficult to weld steels. Just stainless to mild steel 309 is good without the added expense. I would buy rods from a local welding supply instead of online. Heard a few stories where the rods were thrown around and the flux was chipped off on several rods despite having fragile handle with care labeling. Radnor is a private label for Airgas and the rods likely come from overseas. A lot of welders prefer name brand stainless rods like Avesta.
Sorry for reviving an old thread but I figured this was better than having multiple 4in1 repair threads: I need a little advice as to how one might repair this. Hire a guy doesn’t help me currently but I agree that’s the ideal option. I planned on cutting off the section that the blade mounts to but what would be a reasonable fix for the small section above that? It opens to a closed cavity at the back of the bucket.
Can you take a picture of the whole bucket? The close ups are good but hard to see the whole picture.
Are you saying that the back of the Dozer blade is a compartmentalized design? If so, you will just have to block it in, the best you can. I would probably start either way a wide enough piece, welded to the back of the dozer blade, that can accommodate the base for the cutting edge. Probably want to drill holes for the cutting edge first, unless you have access to a mag drill. Then probably plate the front, high enough to get to good metal and weld it to the base plate on the back, with the weld edge at the back of the cutting edge.
I like your plan of action Harley. Thanks for the tip on drill holes. Here’s a few more shots. View attachment IMG_3855.jpeg
Used to haul salted snow? All the rotten has to go to where a straight edge can be achieved all the way. Ideally you would install a single patch that includes what looks like a needed small curl at the top. Take a big press to do it. Might could fit it up nice with 2 straight pieces. I would drill and install cutting edge to fit it all up and then when happy with that I would just tack it and then remove cutting edge before welding all that up. There are all kinds of bucket welding videos on Youtube to watch also.
I appreciate it JL Sargent! I assume so with the salt. It was a forestry dept machine before I had my hands on it.
Understand the steel broke. Everything near it was stressed bad. Yes, you need to stitch up the crack, but repair must address that nearby steel is weakened. Not real clear from pictures, I'll say cutting out as much as 3/4" away from the bent sections, replacing with new. I don't know the grade of steel the original bucket is built from, perhaps you can learn. I guess not more than 70,000 PSI tensile steel. If you will use stick filler you likely won't need stronger than 70,000 PSI filler. Any good, fresh 7018 is famous for ductility. The shrinkage from firm solid as it cools to ambient temperature causes immense stress (tension). Ductility is the forgiveness, (stretch) of thay pull. 7018 is hard to beat. You might weld with fillers up to 110,000 PSI tension rating, if it pulls away as it cools you have failed. The bucket failed. Why did it fail? If poor design. you must reinforce. If it suffered abuse, stop abusing.
Your pics. are too close to tell what you're even looking at. The bottom of the 4 in 1 where the clam closes against it should have a thick edge. Judging by the holes there may have been a replaceable bolt on cutting edge for when you use the bucket like a dozer. I'd cut with a torch or even a cutting disc in a grinder above the rusted out part where it's still a decent thickness and see what's behind there. Cut a straight even line across the bucket. The bottom piece should be about 3/4" thick abrasion resistant steel and it needs to go a couple inches lower than where the clam closes against it. Once you cut the rusted part out you can see if there's internal bracing behind the bucket skin. 7018 will be fine for welding but if you get abrasion resistant steel ask what rod you need to weld it with. Standard mild steel will wear fast for the bottom edge. If you got a wide enough piece for the edge you could weld it to bucket skin unless you make a bolt on edge. I don't think I've ever seen a bolt on edge on the inside edge of a 4 in 1 bucket though. I have a 4 in 1 bucket and the bottom edge is just flat plate with no curve. It is indented some from the clam being forced against when closing it. Looking again the lower part with holes need's to be replaced. This isn't a job for someone with little welding experience. You might be able to just replace the whole bottom part of the bucket with a thick plate 3/4" or even 1" thick.
View attachment IMG_3854.jpeg Welder Dave, I appreciate the advice. Yes there is a cutting edge I unbolted (with the exception of one bolt I cut out) to get a proper photo and assess the extent of the corrosion/damage. I’ll ask around about abrasion resistant steel. I also understand this isn’t an easy job for an amateur…only grow through adversity eh?
If it's a JD bucket the bolt on edge should be available but pricey. Maybe it's a std. bolt pattern for a flat grader blade? The plate with holes needs to be replaced though. The bucket repairs could be mild steel but the cutting edge should be high carbon or a wear resistant steel.
I greatly appreciate all the advice and information. It’s definitely a substantial undertaking. The bolt on edge is possibly salvageable. I’ve been assessing the corrosion and it’s minimal.