I just wish they would open up all the stuff they had shut down because of permits and EPA and all that crap. Like the Coal mine down south, the logging industry, gosh there even used to be pacific coast coal in Black Diamond. Good paying jobs legislated out.
I'm not exactly sure of the true relavence of this thread?. It would appear to be political.
It certainly smells political, which would be really bad, cause I'm getting really tired of having to mention the "no political discussions" policy here... :Banghead
hey, it's friday night, we are all kinda tense, mebbe a lil likkered up. no harm, no foul. close 'er up.
Eh, I dont think it is political at all. Plenty of good paying jobs have gone by way of the dodo bird. Wether it was legislated, cost prohibitive (logging in most parts), or have just been out dated (coal). This thread is about jobs, not politics.....unless you wanna vote on it, then maybe LOL I too would like to see more forest opened up for logging, so it will be profitable. Gone are the days of clear cutting. Most logging companies figure in amount of time for reforrestation, but there isn't enough land allowed to be logged, to make it profitable for more than just a few companies. It is tough talking about jobs, & not mentioning government. I would like to see more lenience (sp?) with the non political ordinance we have on here, as long as folks can just keep it a dicussion, & not just a party bash. Lets face it, there WILL be govt. regulation in ALL of our job futures, so we better get our ducks in a row, before WE go by way of the dodo, get legislated out, become cost prohibitive...and, well.. out dated. :ban:usa (ha I even made the smiles political! sorry, bad joke
Work ? Yes , the USA is in a crisis, an I'd like to know what other people in my industry are thinking. Yes, it may be political, but what is the harm ? Generating controversy, I suppose. But is not that what we want, is a full discussion , like free speech ?? To the admin, then delete the "General Industry " and "TGIF " categories if you feel , the readers are not sterile enough for your taste ! Please Post all your TABOO subject matter right up front . I have not seen that .
Goodo, I look forward to it then. Northart: We have maintained a policy here of dealing each on a case by case basis. A political "related" debate and how it affects us in the industry, is fine..... provided it sticks to facts and personal experience . A heated personal exchange over poltical views causes friction, dissent and general ill feeling and has no place here. Its a fine line but in order for us to have some freedom we have to have some respect as well. The original posts were directed at the originator. I wanted a sensible discussion not an excuse for simply stirring the pot. The line you take is the line the admin is trying to protect. Northart, there are always two sides to a story....I hope I'm making myself very clear.
Even if the closed areas were still open to logging, there would not be much going on right now. The economy is in the crapper, no one is building anything, so the demand for wood is down. As for coal being out dated. Please explain this to me. A product that we can burn in power plants, or a product that we can turn into diesel fuel and gasoline. Explain to me why we shouldnt use a product we have an abundance of on our own soil. This means we would not be at the whim of OPECs production numbers. With todays clean coal technologies, pollution from burning coal is almost nothing compared to what it was. Its time we start making products in our country again. Its time we build nuclear and coal power plants. Along with windmills and solar panels. We need to upgrade our distribution systems. Most importantly, we need to start looking out for our neighbors and country men. Lets stop shipping our scrap to china, only to have it returned as a cheap product. We need to look out for each other.
It has taken a long time and I am still not sure that the message will hit home here in the UK, but that has got to be one of the most sensible statements I have read in a long time. :notworthy the UK has turned into a customer services industry, everybody can talk about building it and fixing it but nobody has the experience any more to actually MAKE it and FIX it. :Banghead A farmer I was talking to in the past month mentioned that 20yrs ago there were over 30 dairy herds around the village we were at, ( I was parking my caravan in one of his barns for safe storage) now there were none! Dairy farmers are selling up as the supermarkets have screwed the price down so low they cant make money. As a result a very large proportion of our milk is IMPORTED from Europe :Banghead :beatsme He raised / bred chickens for a time after the dairy herd went, but new legislation and grief from the animal rights fanatics have made that uneconomical due to the limitations on bird numbers in cages, area etc. As a result we import chickens from Eastern Europe where they dont have the restrictions that we have :Banghead It frightens me that we cant even feed ourselves now and its getting worse (relying on other countries) by the minute.
With this, I agree wholeheartedly. A nation's wealth originates in its ability to transform natural resources into consumer goods. Farms, mines, and manufacturers are the key to that transformation. We (meaning the upper echelons of our society, those we count on for leadership) have allowed the rest of the world to assume the work of creating wealth, while we (as defined above), seem content to try and skim our incomes off the top. We're too much a nation of 'wealth manipulators', and no longer enough of a nation of 'wealth creators', and it's that that is leading us to ruin.
The crazy laws and environmental BS we are putting up with now will be nothing compared to what we will be dealing with after the next 4 years are up.With the crazy loons on the left controlling everything.Anybody in the construction and earth moving business will be out of luck. I know this my not be politically correct on here and it might offend some of you on here but its the truth.
Just as a point of reference, this is the type of statement that begins to cross the line into why we stay away from politics. The line is too easily crossed. (I lose track of it myself sometimes. :dizzy)
I don't sugar coat it I tell you the truth.
Gettng back to coal. Even clean coal is somewhat a marketing strategey. Compared to solar/water/wind power it doesn't hold a candle. I do agree that we have LOL TONS of it, & it can create a butt load of jobs in the short term....windmills, & solar plants NEED to be created. Don't get me wrong I am not a "greenie". BUT loking at creating 10 years worth of jobs mining coal, VS. 10 years worth of jobs creating solar & wind power plants....wich do you think makes more sence. I say we use coal as sparingly as possible, use it to make deisel, open up our INLAND oil reserves NOT our coast. On logging, I don't know the exact stat, but I would guess 1/100000 of our forest is avail. to be logged. On the Stanislaus, you have to get permission from the USFS to take logging trucks ON FOREST ROADS! ***! Right now the econ. is in the crapper, so yeah logging isn't making $$ like every other industry right now BUT, it has been overregulated since the 80's when they pretty much shut it down in Tuolumne County (where I am from). All the USFS folks talk about erosion from logging, yet the sites they put out to bid are to far away to be helilogged, & are such fouled up terrain that a mule couldn't cross it....CAUSING MORE erosion due to the matter of just gettng TO the wood. Lemme tella ya, if feels SOOO good to see 30 year career loggers having to work for tree trimming outfits, for $10 an hour cause there is not wood to be cut, waiting for the USFS to bid another harvest that may open in a few years.
But it is a personal opinion ( which you are entitled to) that can lead to conflict with others and gets the threads CLOSED which is what we are trying to avoid. :drinkup
Altlas rob...I know on other forums the mods can "alter" user posts. Not shure if that might be a way of steering debates that get a little out of hand... some just put "edited by Moderator" Others change the wording, dont know, it's up to you, just my once a month thought!
Not a problem basspro, I'n not a mod or decision maker its just that I know things have been a bit tense lately, ( aren't we all ) and the Mods although very diplomatic sometimes get taken the wrong way. As far as I am aware neither Steve or the mods will alter a post except if the autocensor misses something or to repair quote tags. They might comment/warn or in extreme cases lock a thread but they dont get altered. :drinkup
No. Name calling ("those crazy loons on the left"), goes beyond 'not sugar coating' it. You're entitled to hold that opinion, and to have that characterization in your own mind, but it's counterproductive to use it in making your point here. The fact that you did use it, and that you defend it even after having it pointed out to you, is a perfect illustration of how political threads so often go right down the drain. That's why we discourage them.
As for editing of posts... Yes, Mods have the ability to edit posts at any time. A note at the bottom of the post will show who did the edit, and when, and the Mod can add a note of explanation as to why. Rob is correct, in that we'll edit out inappropriate content, or fix quote tags or something, to make something more clear, but it would be wrong in principle to "alter" a post--to substitute our words or ideas for the words or ideas that a member had posted. That won't happen.
The mine that I am currently working in, has 85 years worth of coal reserves already purchased. This same mine has already been in operation for 25 years. There must be some good things happening in the coal industry right now because there are mines popping up everywhere around here.
Well, I cant speak for solar, but I can speak for wind power. There are a few small wind projects in the area, any where from 50 to 100 mills per farm. The local power company wants to build two more coal fired plants, next to two others. This doubles the amount of boilers, from 4 to 8. Our wonderful governor of Mi decided that after Mr Obama became president, that she was going to suck rear end. She placed a moratorium on all new permits for coal fired power plants. This is after she agreed we needed the jobs and was backing the project. She favors windmills and solar. Solar wont work here, there is just not enough sunny days. So that leaves wind. Problem is, to create the same amount of construction jobs that the two power houses would create, would require 4,000 windmills. That doesn't include rebuilding the original 4 boilers at the power plants. It also does not provide the maintenance jobs that the coal power houses do. At any one time you can figure 4-10 operators working at the power plant, with two more plants that would double to 8-20. Thats just operating engineers. Doesn't include pipe fitters/ boilermakers, carpenters, electricians, and laborers. It also does not include the folks that ship the coal, or mine the coal. Sure the wind farms require maintenance also. This works out to a crane hand and oiler, one week, every few months, depending on blade damage.
Is this what you truly want Northart??? Somehow I think not. These are heavy equipment forums , a place I put together for people involved in the industry to come together and exchange information on different ideas or questions they might have that might make their lives easier or businesses more efficient. That is the main objective of this site. The "General Industry Questions" forum is self explanatory, I added the TGIF forum so our members can get to know each other a bit away from heavy equipment. I think it also lends to a member's credibility and makes some of the information found here even more valid if you have an idea of the integrity of the person who is posting. We have placed just a few restrictions on this exchange, politics unrelated to heavy equipment, racism, religion and sexual references. There are forums available around the internet for these topics, we do not want them here. When we first opened Heavy Equipment Forums, politics were not excluded. I personally am very politically active and have staunch beliefs, but we quickly found that political discussions far too often become heated and inflammatory. Believe it or not, we do not sit here monitoring the Board 24/7 as some may think and a lot of damage can be done to the camaraderie that has developed here through political and religious discussion. We do not "Alter" anyone's posts here at Heavy Equipment Forums outside of content we consider to be offensive, discussions listed above, or attempts to circumvent the autocensor. If a thread or post is headed in a direction we think will lead to trouble, we'll step in and make a post to try and correct that as Squizzy did at the beginning of this thread. We do our best to treat everyone equally and fairly, I've been very fortunate to to find a few members who volunteer their time to moderate the Board who have the same visions as I. I owe them a debt of gratitude, they play a huge part in keeping the forums running smoothly. We've done our best to make this a pleasant place to be, where productive discussion can take place as well as enjoyment and entertainment. We have rules in place to help maintain order, which we apply when necessary using our judgment. Some rules are not written but you can pretty much assume that we expect you to conduct yourselves as if you were a guest in another person's home. We do use discretion in enforcing the rules, if we took a hard line on that there would be quite a few members who would have lost privileges here. We're fast approaching 8000 members here and of these I was able to find just four who have been banned permanently for gross misconduct on the Board. That being said, we will allow no member regardless of who they might be insult or intimidate another member at will. Anyone who frequently infringes on another member's enjoyment of the forums will given a "time out" to reconsider our expectations, or if they persist, a permanent vacation away from the forums. Even then, the administration has a group discussion on whether this action is taken to prevent it from being personal in nature and as I mentioned there have been only four members of nearly 8000 in 5 years time who have met this demise. I've been a member at boards that are loosely moderated and if you look closely at what I've just written here you will find it is in past tense. Boards that are loosely moderated tend to run out of control very quickly and become a free for all. Very little constructive information gets exchanged and you are forever dodging insults and slander. I've stopped participating at boards like this and I don't want to see that happen here, this is why we have our rules in place and operate the way we do.
Forum Rules Hello Squizzy, and Steve, I just read the forum rules, there is no mention of Politics, Religion, race. The case by case , effort of censor or enforcement ?? made the one comment , "I'm tired of saying no politics " ? not sure I got that quote right. But if that is becoming an problem effort, at maintaining your BB, these 2 categories are the ones giving you the most troubles. That is why I suggested the change. Perhaps you ought to add more definition (clarify) to your posting rules. Gosh, I hope this does not muddy up the waters further. Take care, Northart
You mean this one? And to somebody making their first post, after having read only one topic that hasn't had a guiding comment made by one of the staff, that might be a valid excuse. But obviously you have read enough of the comments by myself and the rest of the staff to be well aware of what the policy is. Have you considerd the value of "peer pressure" in helping us enforce the policy? Maybe you could speak up and offer a gentle reminder if you see somebody posting something that's out of bounds?
i gotta comment. i am a loudmouth. no, really! but i got to hand it to steve and the mods for keeping things here civil. i do appreciate the civil tone of the threads here. it is frusturating at times, but this is surely the best forum for tractor geeks out there. it is safe to say that the bulk of us members are un-or under employed right now and this site is like a giant, global tavern where we can all blow off some steam. and for that i thank steve and the mods.
Political threads often do go down the drain because of whiners who get their feelings hurt.But what I stated wasn't an opinion it was the facts.I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings but its the truth and we all know.So go and do some fact finding and see if the crazy loons on the left ain't the ones that create most of our environmental BS.
Another reason threads go downhill is because somebody doesn't know when to back off and take a hint. But I won't sugar coat it for you.
My feelings don't enter into it. This discussion we're having is about why forum policy is what it is--not about what your opinion or mine might be. You don't seem to understand that if one of those "crazy loons on the left" wishes to reply to you in the same tone you're using, that you might be equally offended. And even if you personally have a thick enough skin to not be offended, somebody that shares your opinions might not be as thick-skinned. So, they reply in kind, and then somebody else feels the need to take their shot, and somebody else, and it snowballs. THAT is why we discourage political discussions. And that is what you and I are discussing here. Do I need to make that more clear? I feel the need to thank you, because you're really helping to illustrate my point...