Greetings all. Who knew becoming a land developer would find me owing such a variety of heavy equipment but here I am again with my potential acquisition of an Allis Chalmers HD16DP-7748. I do not know for certain but I am going to put this around the 1967/68 vintage. It's certainly larger than my D6. I went to check this bad boy out and it is in unbelievably great shape... everything works very well accept an issue with what I believe to be the transmission. The current owner explained that the unit would not move when he purchased it. Found the transmission dry... no fluid. They filled it up and that got it to moving. Over time it has retreated into a process of firing up the motor... than working the forward/reverse back and forth until the machine begins to move... initially it will move about 10 feet in both direction and then build up as you continue to cycle back and forth. Ultimately it will reach a point that it will move well for the day until such time you shut it down and let it sit. You then will have to repeat the process. I have ordered a complete sent of manuals for it but do not have them yet. Thought I would look to see if there was an A-C old timer on here that could lend some pointers.
I don't recall not being able to edit typos after the fact on ones own posts but I can find no where to edit my post above at all. 'Owing' in the post above should have been 'owning'.
The edit button is only available for 60 minutes after the post.
I’m going to save you a LOT of trouble: Don’t buy it
stay away,,, poor parts availability, buy newer cat d7 or d8 better parts availability
If you do buy it, replace every suction hose you can find. Ide bet they are rotted badly and causing suction leaks
Well that would explain it. Thank you Diesel Dave.
Dave has it right the hoses and also i believe that has a suction screen also.
I know zero about those. But could be scored/ messed up transmission pump, and whats mentioned above. Losing prime for some reason, try just holding the transmission control lever in say the forward direction and see if that helps prime it rather than forward and back ward. The good thing about that machine is it should be dirt cheep, not over $5K, I say less. 1 almost no parts availability. 2 almost no one can fix em 3 no special tools around any more 4 it has problems as is 5 almost no one would want it even for a few thousand. 6 costs alot to haul it from there and more if it refuses to move on its own All good points for a person purchasing it, and bad for the seller. That is just a canopy, it is not a ROPS. It may not even be allowed on any sort of job site. Dare go clearing with it and have a tree or branch fall on that. What engine in it? Detroit? Those sprockets and carrier rollers are so old school. The owner should pay you to haul it away, I'm not joking.
AC's where great machines in their day....however, they day has come and gone, it would serve you well to leave it where it is if you are looking for a machine to work. Cat still has a vast parts network for their machines of the same vintage.. You'd be better served with something like that. That being said, I'm going to follow along and see how you do if you buy this machine, I wish you all the luck in the world.
All points are taken well. Some times in life, it is the current set of conditions that dictate ones next steps. In this case, at 67 I have embarked on a new rodeo in my life. That of building a 65 home subdivision. I have built homes in the past... one here and one there but always on a single lot. This last June, after 2 1/2 years of pursuing it and getting through the red tape and bureaucracy, I, as the general contractor and my team began pushing dirt on a 24 acre spread for the civil infrastructure of this 65 home subdivision... again, my first rodeo in such an endeavor. I have a been purchasing equipment, a D6 Cat, IH412 scraper, heavy duty ditch witch trencher, triaxle, and boring machine, etc. The property is farm land with a thin covering of top soil before you get into the clay. The D6 and scraper are older machines. The D6 is a 1960. The scraper an early '70s machine. I love operating the dozer and while it has 'many' short comings, broken tension springs, etc, it has been doing what I need it to until now. With an 11 and a half foot blade it doesn't cut to well into the clay. It only has a 2 way blade on it and it has no rake to break up the soil. This is where the A/C HD16DP comes in. The particular machine I am pursuing is in excellent shape. Literally no rust, no leaks, all articulations run very well, undercarriage is in better shape then the D6, and the motor is strong. Best of all... it has a 4 way 11 and a half foot blade and a monster of a rake on the back. This comes in a package that is financially very appealing when compared to purchases of something in the Cat range for the same thing. I have negotiated a deal for both the dozer and a 20 ton trailer that is currently used to haul the dozer behind a triaxle. At $7,000 for the dozer, it is most difficult to walk away from. The only issue observed is the one that I have been speaking of with having to work with it to get it to moving... and it eventually does. If it is seals, I have an outfit in our area that hasn't failed me yet when assembling seal kits for various pieces of unique and antiquated equipment I have... bringing them back to life in full fashion. There are other mitigating factors involved in this decision as well but I have chosen to move forward with this purchase. I have already cleared the property for a silt fence that is now installed around the perimeter, nearly a miles worth, and have also cleared the area for a 3 acre retention pond which is what I am working now. Our engineer has laid out the development where it is almost completely dirt neutral however there is a tremendous amount of soil that needs to be moved from one end of the property to the other. On once side I have to come down as much as 18 feet and build it up on the other end. Between the D6 and the HD16DP I believe that both will shine in their respective abilities and one can break up the soil while the other pushes it and with the 4 way blade, grading the road will be more easily accomplished. As I started this post stating, this is my first rodeo in a civil infrastructure... learning as I go. I find the trick is keeping the learning slightly ahead of the doing. You guys are kinda my mentors. I have no issues jumping in with both feet buy it's much better being able to draw from those much more experienced than I. The retention pond is a great example. Would like to understand from an 'ol timer the best practices in putting a 3 acre retention pond in place with a dozer and scraper. Not certain if this forum is the best place for that or not but I figure it's a good place to start. This project is a 4 year project with home to begin next spring. The civil side will be done in 3 phases over the next two years. I will be a regular to these forums over this period. Looking forward to communicating with all who wish to give their .02 and hopefully learn in the process.
The thingy on the rear is called a Ripper. So many other better deals on dozers to be had. Even as someone that would only be wanting more of a hobby type machine, I would not want anything to do with any of those dozers you mentioned why? That allis is all of what I mentioned above, controls on the D6 are likely not good. I do have some good things to say about IH scrapers though. If I was doing work with them I want to operate them not mechanic on them. I'd want better stuff.
Semantics. You sound like a hard man to please chidog. If I had an unlimited resource of discretionary funds I would most likely take another path... however... not all of us are as fortunate. As to the mechanican... As long as it isn't inconvenient, I enjoy it very much and do all my own. I particularly like the older equipment. Unless it's brand spanking new... ALL equipment requires attention... I don't care who's it is. Today's equipment will set you back appreciably when it fails. Further, today's designs aren't built to last. My experience is they have been built to keep you at the service department of the respective manufacture... but I digress.
Don’t worry this boat anchor will ensure you stay limited in your discretionary funds I and many of the others here commenting in this thread have long experience as heavy equipment mechanics Trying to do production work using extremely old orphans that are difficult or outright impossible to get parts for is not a recipe for success I work with a man (who is about to retire) that worked for a Fiat Allis dealer up until F-A folded. He had high praise for the machines and said they did very well in this area, plus sold very well but after they got orphaned you don’t see a single one around. Trust the experience that says run not walk, run away from this “deal” it’s not a deal in your favor sir.
Well, we DO need a record-breaking thread!
Good luck with your new purchase and make sure to keep us updated.
I think we should do a “Yeah these guys thought they got bargains too” thread with links to our classic threads pinned at the top of every section
If your investment is $7000 then work the snot out of it until it dies or the job ends, it’s hard to see how you’re gonna lose a fortune if you’ve only invested 7000. I say go for it and enjoy every hour you get out of it.
That has been my thought process all along Kyfarm. Just the return on the pond itself justifies this expenditure even if I never use the dozer again. It is in such good shape however I expect that I will get plenty more use out of it.
If $7000 is your gambling (throw away) money, what is your actual budget money? I don't think they can be anywhere near the same. In the grand scheme of things $7000 isn't a lot of money for what your potential return could be. If you doubled that could find an older Cat in equal or better shape and more importantly would have decent parts support. If the AC was run low on trans. fluid could be on it's last legs and die in short order. That's when you could be out your $7000 and have to find something else.
Did I say I have a D6 already? And that I can't find parts for it?
I think I mentioned I have a D6 already. What I didn't mention is I am unable to find parts for it.
Well that was rather redundant. I didn't see that the previous post actually posted. My apology.
I just reread most of this thread but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. First off I am all about getting projects done as cheap as possible but I think you might be trying to take that comment to a whole new level. I believe you said it's 24 acres with 18 ft of cut on one side and the total dirt zero's out and a 3 acre detention pond. You said it's farm ground now so prob not many if any trees to be cleared so that's a big plus. You are basically showing up with 2 50+ yr old dozers and a 9 yd scraper. I believe you said start building houses next spring?? If this is all correct I would recommend getting your equipment up and running in tip top shape then get ahold of a local contractor that has at least 2 good sized scrapers, a couple of dozers, a packer and a road grader. Turn him loose on the project and you can 'help' him with your equipment when you are not working on it. For a little perspective..... currently grading work is being done on a 45 house subdivision about 1 mile from my house. Every situation is different but the equipment list on this project is 5- 627 scrapers, a D7H, a D6M, a 300 size excavator, a 140M grader, a tractor pulling a roller and a tractor pulling a box scraper. It is @150,000 yd project with a pretty short time line. They have been working for about a month and are not half done yet. We have had a fair amount of rain since they started which hasn't helped. Basically what I'm saying it looks like you are showing up to a gunfight with a ball peen hammer. Just my $.02
Yes what about a compactor? 24 acres is it square? That would be about 1000 ft each side. So how much of the dirt to move is top soil? How many yards to move? No matter what the machines older ones eat more fuel. And depends on the operator and if the blade is a U blade or not. Just remember the operator is the variable of how much dirt you will move per gallon of diesel. Well yeah and the specific fuel consumption of the engine and how efficient the machine is. Maybe not this coming next year but the next after that? And please keep us posted on how this all goes, did you take delivery yet? And figure out the transmission problem?
Good morning all. I do not have a compactor. Have been looking at them for some time and have probably resolved myself to renting one when we are ready for it tho I do tend to rather have all the tools in my arsenal. Please understand that I am already committed to this 65 home development and there is no back tracking out of it from here forward. As such I have little interest to entertain what we can not do but rather need to focus on those things that can move me forward and understand... there will be a lot of thinking outside the box. I am already aware I have probably bit off more than I can chew but there is no turning back now. I would very much enjoy documenting this endeavor here along with pics and video and as this is my first rodeo would greatly appreciate any and all positive feedback and recommendations from all who wish to contribute. I have no mentors and I am learning by the seat of my pants. Something I have done since I was 13. I'm not sure if this is the thread to do it in or if I should create a new one dedicated to the process we have gone through and moving forward. I'm certain first timers will find it quite interesting and the old timers will say... been there/done that... got the T-shirt.... and it's from them I would relish the feed back. Just understand that we have massive constraints and it isn't always as easy as just throwing out cash. I will explain those restraints as I document here. Having said that... I'm happy to detail this endeavor from the beginning when we decided to actually pursue this project and I believe it will make for some interesting discussion all the way around. So, should I do it here or start a new thread and leave this to discussions about the A/C HD16?... Or... does any one really care? As for this morning... I am off to push dirt... well clay really.
You should prob start a new thread on your project. There are alot of people on here that can give you alot of good info that prob could have overlooked a thread titled Allis Chalmers HD16. My earlier post prob came across a bit negative. In my neck of the woods lots sell for a minimum of $50,000. With that being said I felt you are basically depending on few pieces of older equipment in questionable condition to do the dirt work on a $3,250,000.00 project in a timely manner. That is why I made the comment about hiring a local contractor. Heck, just the 3 acre detention pond alone would be a big project for your equipment. I am not trying to be negative just realistic. I have several pieces of older equipment that range from the oldest being 1992 up to 2008 and there is always something needing attention.
If you post on a public forum you have to take the good with the bad. I think everyone would like the AC dozer to work out great but the reality is that is wishful thinking. The comments come from decades of experience. Very rarely do find 50 year old machines that can put in a good weeks or even days work without having to fix something. Most are wornout and on their last legs.
That has kinda been my contention all along. I don't negate the idea that my equipment is ancient by comparison, but in this neck of the woods... most items from the '80s forward are $30k and higher... much higher. Particularly excavators which I know we'll need as well. Been looking at an 80's vintage CAT 320c that will run me $44k. I have already operated it and the owner isn't in a hurry to let it go just yet which works out for me. As a result... I have to scrimp elsewhere. It is a plus that I am not only capable of working on my own equipment but that I have a facility that lends itself to it as well... granted... as long as the time it takes from a project is kept to a minimum. Ask me about overcoming my D6 straddling a creek with a thrown track some time. I can laugh about it... now. The D6 I have was purchased from a fella that used it specifically for putting in farm and retention ponds which he did for a living. He used it for many years in that endeavor and was finally ready to upgrade. I am fully aware that the odds are not in my favor on this project. For different reasons than the obvious. I invite all to follow the new thread. I certainly will appreciate any and all constructive input. I will get into specifics in the new thread but the target range we are building for is $250k - $350k. The local area is hurting for affordable housing for the blue collar worker which is our target. Unfortunately, we are only getting $30k per lot after civil development. So the new thread will be titled..... "What the hell was I thinking! A tale of land development" As for the HD16. It is on hold at the moment. I am still leaning to purchasing it. Talking to a couple fellas that have A/C equipment including the same dozer.
Any suggestions what/where I should put this new thread under? This is a heavy equipment forum... not certain if an ongoing dialog on a civil infrastructure development from start to finish is within the guide lines of the forum.
I think 'General Industry Discussion' is where I would put it.
We are already 2 pages into a possible record breaking thread. Starting over is robbing 2 pages.....ill feel shafted
The reason the guys that do this day in day out run newer equipment is not because they want to spend the money but uptime is everything. They have to get jobs done by deadlines and move on to the next one. They need parts available for local pickup ASAP or a service shop that will fit them when things go wrong beyond what they can handle. If you can deal with the downsides of running older equipment when it comes to those needs and reasons, by all means buy some old junk. I still would strongly discourage the purchase of this machine, I think you are buying yourself an unfortunate headache.
You not supposed to buy headaches...you marry them
I see General Industry Questions.... not General Industry Discussion.
Would that be yours in the avatar Vetech63? Hope she doesn't visit this forum.
The General Industry Questions is the one I was thinking. Like the 2nd one from the top.
I guess I didn't realize you were building the houses also. Wow, you certainly are biting off a big chunk!!!
The plan initially was to build the houses... We went in search of other builders to sell lots and have parallel building going on but we found a builder that wanted to buy all the lots so that is the path we are taking. I am a general contractor and have built homes on lots but have never taken on a complete subdivision development. That's where this is my 1st rodeo. I will get the new thread going and provide an initial detail page that lays out all the particulars on this project. If I'm going to get feed back I prefer those that offer will have as much info as possible to provide constructive feedback.
Ok... the initial post has been created. HeavyEquipmentForums
I worked at 2 outfits that both had old machines. Yes lots of break downs at both, but the 2nd outfit had that all handled nicely I can't remember how many mechanics they had, and at most jobs we always had many many back up machines for when and if the one your on broke down. I'm thinking at one 30 acre job we did we had 30 machines on site, and some were setting just in case. But yeah we did hammer the jobs out fast unlike the state hiways where you have 30 people standing around, and 3 or 4 machines all new of course, on a many mile long job, that takes years of traffic jams for them to complete the job.
So let me see if I can approach this A/C dozer from another perspective. I fully understand everyone's concern regarding the lack of parts availability. I'm an individual that thrives on redundancy. Example... I have a '98 Chevy 1 ton dully flatbed and a '99 1 ton Chevy express van. The van came first. I purposely sought out the flatbed as I needed one but wanted to insure I had interchangeable parts which both do. Same engine, transmission, etc. I also purchased an extra 454ci engine and transmission which matches what is in both vehicles. My philosophy is to always have a backup for the most obvious things that could go wrong. I also own three Prius'. Not that I set out to in the beginning... In the beginning I was putting together a solar solution for my shop and needed a storage battery solution. I had everything else. I knew that the high voltage pack in a Prius is ideally suited for such so I got on line to find a totaled Prius in hopes of salvaging it's battery pack. I came across an add in Craigs List that stated.... "Took the Prius out for a 4th of July drive. Stopped to get gas... wouldn't start... had it towed to dads... make me an offer." So I offered him $1000 for it thinking he would respectively decline or laugh me out of the park. His return was..."That sounds reasonable!". So I beat feet to Champaign Illinois and retrieved it. Prior to making the offer I thought to myself... Ya know.... he made it to the gas station... it has to be something simple. Got it home... it was late... my son looked at it and said he couldn't figure out why it wouldn't start but that the 12 volt battery was low. My first response was... it can't be that simple. Charged the battery and I have been running on it for two years now, have put 80k miles on it, it gets 46mph and I have saved a ton of money in fuel. I couldn't bring myself to just yank the high voltage battery out for my solar system given the car was fully functional. It is my primary transportation. I have since purchased two other Prius'. One that also runs and my son uses and the 3rd as a spare parts car. Both were purchased for $800 and $600 respectively. These are the Gen2 models... all interchangeable... and the most reliable variant of all the generations of Prius'. They have been notorious for getting 450,000 miles on them before crapping out. I also have a spare engine, inverter, and transmission for the lot. Lastly, I have an IH single axle dump truck and the IH412 scraper. Both have the same engine (DT466) and transmission in them. If one or the other craps out... I have spare parts for the other. The added benefit to doing the repairs myself... I learn the particular piece of equipment inside and out which has a huge benefit when something else goes wrong. It's much easier diagnosed and addressed. All this is to say... if I end up purchasing the HD16... I will most likely be looking for a 2nd.. just as I have been for the D6. Have actually found a D6 for $4500. So my approach on the HD16 is this... before I purchase I will drop the belly pan and check the suction tubes for the transmission along with the filter. Will also put a pressure guage on the lines to insure proper fluid pressure for the transmission. If I find those in good shape but am still having issues with movement I will most likely walk away. I have asked the owner to reconsider the price from $7,000 to $5,000. I was buying this in a packaged deal that included a 20 ton trailer for an additional $5000 that he used to move the dozer with. I think he may be ok with the reduction on the dozer. I have already purchased a triaxle dump truck which can pull the trailer. This negates my having to purchase a tractor/trailer rig to haul this equipment on. As funds are released on this project on a task completion basis... money remains tight until we get a few tasks completed. I'm certain others may find fault with this approach too but if it is as simple as a pick up tube and such... I don't see a down side to this.
I will gladly follow along and wish you well in your endeavor. That being said, the fact that you admitted that your primary driver is a friggin Prius, that is a sin that is damn near unforgiving. A Prius in our industry is fine for the wife or the child with a man bun but for a dirt digger, nah we just bury them.
LMAO... believe me... I had second thoughts when admitting to it. I'm all about functionality over aesthetics tho. It costs me a $100 bill every time I fill the flatbed or 1 ton van and they get 8 mph or less. Less than $30 to fill a 10 gallon tank and I go 460 miles on that tank. So I sit low in the seat so no one recognizes me... but I can't argue with the results.
Worked for a AC dealer for close to 50 years these are good old dozers now on parts engine and most transmission parts are still available. From places like Munn par. Finals not so much their are lots of parted out machines though and bearing any good bearing house can get them.
Wait! Might I have an Ally? I found another guy in NC who has an A/C HD16DP. He swears by it. Says he will assist me any way he can. Has already sent me a complete parts manual with exploded views. I look forward to conversing with you as well dirthog.
Ill sell you a machine shop so you can build parts for that thing!
Actually, I have a 16,000 sq ft proto typing shop which includes tooling for the manipulation of essentially all materials. Also have the ability to cast aluminum and working on the ability to cast iron. I have made replacement parts in the past when they couldn't be had otherwise.
Dude, take this with a grain of salt. Especially since I know you have a healthy sense of humor. This is not a war and you don’t need an ally. You bought an old clam for a substantial subdivision and are trying to save money. I sincerely hope it works out for you and the old equipment, while decent workhorses back in the day, don’t really belong on a make it or break it progressive land clearing job. Can and will it work out? I hope it does and maybe you can do even more work after this. Would I want all my old equipment on a job like this? Certainly but after seeing and running new equipment, that I can start and warm up, while I’m having breakfast and taking a shower, miles away, does have a good feeling about it.
Hi Harley, I am there with ya. Please understand... I'm not trying to save money... I'm trying to get the job done.. on a budget that only pays as it goes. When all is said and done here on this project... it is my hope to be in the position to actually better my inventory on the next one. We all gotta start somewhere. I'm 67 for crying out loud... as the title suggests in my civil development post... what the hell was I thinking! Just as much as I enjoy 'old school'... I am all about technology as well. My back ground is quite diverse, including designing, building, and installing automated systems from start to finish in very unique environments. In fact, I have the capacity to automate the D6 and anything else I might choose too and do so at a fraction of the cost of today's equipment including making it do what you described above from miles away... that actually is a piece of cake... if I can find the time. In my mind manufactures are far too proud of what they put out and a lot of times it still falls short. Don't get me started on John Deere... notorious for under designing their equipment. As for a war.... I have never considered it that way. I very well know everyone here is trying to insure I don't make a huge mistake and I am very appreciative of that. Over time you all will come to understand that while I am a neophyte as far as the subdivision goes... I am far from that on many other topics. I'm a hands on guy. This is just one more exercise in my quest to learn and understand... something that is the driving force of my life. I have a heavy back ground in technology and have even been a part of it's evolution... which is quite exhilarating... but I am equally as enthused about how things were done way back when before modern day conveniences and love experiencing them as well. My prototyping shop is a great example. A blend of old and new. I have lathes dating back to 1902 and modern day CNC vertical milling stations. And sense of humor?.... what sense of humor? I stopped taking myself to serious a long time ago. I hope I never come off as being wound to tight... I certainly don't mean to.
I love my Allis HD5 , but is slow as fuk, parts are a nightmare to located. I probably have 1000 plus hours on it , yet i can run circles around it with my newer equipment from the 70's. lol
Can I ask what '70s equipment you have?
72 case dozer 450, 76 case 450 loader , only thing i have found to be hard to get is tracks and idlers. they are expensive and a 99 Jd 310e back hoe that's even faster than the case also. I spend more time fixing the case dozer than using it. well it seems that way. allis and case loader sit a lot because the back hoe is sooo much faster
Went down to where the HD16 is located yesterday and replaced the suction hoses on it. It looked like this could be the issue as the upper hose was not tight and could allow air to be sucked in to the pump but it did not alleviate the issue. Took a set of pressure gauges with me and checked pressure at the filter. Someone had already retrofitted this dozer with a relocated filter up next to the seat and we checked the pressure at that point. We had 160psi and found that the filter was clean and free of debris. Additionally, as we drained the fluid through the suction tube which is on the output side of the internal transmission screen and the fluid flowed freely and was absent of any contamination we believed the screen to be in good shape and did not drop the transmission pan to find out. This dozer has a modulated clutch and we then checked the pressure at that point and had no pressure... zero. Working with Doughd16b we found that there is a way to test the modulator itself but we did not have the proper tools with us to accomplish this yesterday. The fella that owns it will have those tools tomorrow and will be able to perform the test. If successful it will indicate that the modulator is the issue and I will need to open it up and look for an obstruction or failed seal. I learned more about what led up to the dozer not moving. The previous owner had changed the hose that goes from the modulator to the heat exchanger (this dozer has two heat exchangers). After doing so is when they said it stopped moving. As this hose feeds hydraulic fluid to the modulator and the point of pressure test was on the output of that modulator we believe there is some kind of obstruction, perhaps caused during the replacement of the hose. It is our understanding that the removal of one of the eight hoses going into this modulator and capping it will tell us for sure if the issue is in the modulator. If the dozer goes into gear and moves after doing so then the modulator is likely the culprit.
For me to hang on to something like that I'd need to own 4 costco size shops. Sorry but not only are those flat belts dangerous, but the space they take up. Just wow! And something does not add up. You have all this manufacturing etc. and have to pinch pennys on dozers? I guess all those machine tools just collect dust then? I'm lost on all this.
The glass is always half empty for you isn't it chidog. I get the feeling you'd bitch if you were hung with a new rope. If pennys were the difference I'd have a modern day fleet of machines. Pennys are never the difference. $10s of thousands are.
Where abouts in Washington are you chidog? I grew up in Seattle (14 years of my childhood) and spent 4 years in Tri-Cities back in the 70's.
I've always lived on the east side, spent most time around Renton area then maybe 20 miles from, north and now south. You would not want to be here now. Not a glass person, just always try to look at the logical side of things. And just old and fussy too. And like you, I would like the old junk to play with too, but not on a time line to get a job done. Machines I'd choose are the ones I know the best. AC is not one of them. That old AC might do you good, if you get it going run it for a bit make it work before the $ come out.
I grew up on the north side in Mountlake Terrace. My childhood memories of Seattle can't be beat. It sure isn't that any longer. Was last there in 2008 and the area is an absolute mess. My oldest childhood memory is watching them build I5 behind our house. I remember when the highway was graded. Don't remember much before that. At 67 I try not to consider the 'old' but I sure can relate to the fussy. While we have a time line... it is one of our defining and because it is our first rodeo we chose to have another reputable builder actually build the homes (they wanted to buy all the lots and it made sense to us) so we could concentrate on the new stuff... i.e. the civil infrastructure. Our time line is we have to have enough in place so the builder can build 16 homes starting next May over the following year. We expect to be completely done with the civil infrastructure less the final cover of the roads in two years. The builder will erect 16 homes a year for 4 years. If we had to adhere to a time line that is otherwise exercised in most developments today I agree with you... we would have no chance. Again, this is a learning process all the way through and I choose to have hands on in all aspects of it. It will be the next development I will pull away and simply manage but I will have a very good understanding of all that is involved by that time.
I-5 ! I remember walking on I-405 with dad as a youngin when it was just dirt, and lots of heavy equipment sitting all over the place. And the now replaced many years ago, fresh and new Kennydale bridge that had a date of 1957 on it, yeah traversed that bridge many times walking to school.
I was there from '58 thru '73. Used to enjoy so much going to the Puget Sound which was an hour bike ride from my house to the ferry in Edmonds and be amazed when the tied would go out at all the sea life that was exposed. In 2008 that was completely none existent. Very sad. Did not hear from the owner of the HD16 yesterday. Hope to today.
Here is the latest... the current owner of the dozer removed the hose which goes from the modulating clutch to the torque converter, capped it and the port it came off of, however, we overlooked one crucial requirement... we were to take the hose going to the torque converter and connect it to the test port at the filter where we had 160 psi of pressure. So.... that hopefully will be accomplished tomorrow. We have been instructed to keep the rpms low when doing this test as if the torque converter is good it will go into gear like a transmission with a shift kit. The skinny here is if it does... then the modulating clutch is definitely suspect and needs to be interrogated. Fortunately, it sits right beside the seat and is easily accessible. Remember, on a test port on the modulating clutch we had no pressure at all.
Waiting for the update from today.
Me too. Haven't heard anything yet.
So I have just gotten word. Hooking up the torque converter line to a pressure source has the dozer moving forward and reverse in normal fashion. Video to come. I suspect a blockage of some sort within the modulating clutch. I will move forward with the purchase.
I see I keep calling it a modulating clutch when in reality it is a modulating valve. My bad.
The north end of I-405 connected to I-5 just north of where I grew up. Used to use it to catch I-90 and forgot going though downtown Seattle. Did a LOT of driving in my youngen years between Seattle and Tri-Cities and Seattle and Montana.
The HD16DP is scheduled to be delivered to the development property this coming Thursday. Looding forward to having it on site.
Oh boy... I'm excited... was able to bump by a day the delivery of the dozer. Going after it tomorrow.
Make sure to give us a report.
Would a short video be too much to ask when you get it operating? I haven't heard an old Allis dozer growl for too many years now. The first big machine I was ever around was an HD16 and that was around 1975 and a logging job I had used one, the thing was awesome to watch when scalping a gravel esker. Thanks in advance
Short video will come tomorrow. Got it home in one piece this evening and couldn't wait... had to give it a go in the rock hard clay. I love the results!!!
The ripper, while showing three tines, is actually capable of holding 5 tines. I'm thinking this is just the ticket for a subdivision development we are building where we have decided to use lime mixed into the soil to stabilize the road bed. I'm thinking this would/should be the first step after grading to prepare the soil for the lime. Thoughts on where I might look for a couple of matching tines?
What is the machine weight? It looks pretty big on that lowboy. Hope it does good for you. Whats hanging down from the back of the blade lift cylinder?
That's the air intake stack it isn't hanging down from the lift cylinder its behind it. As far as weight I believe the HD16 was mid-sized between a D7 and a D8 Cat..not sure of the actual weight. If memory... serves me that is.
There was a post on here a few years ago (3 or 4 maybe) from a guy that has just became the new owner of a AC HD16 he won on an auction...he paid $5000.00 for it, it looked to be in great shape on the outside, I don't remember ever seeing anything else posted from him after? I wonder if this could be the same machine? idk I post this thinking maybe he will see it and if it isn't ,maybe add something about these machines that may benefit you down the road. I'm sure he's learned plenty about them by now.
I have a guy out of the Allis Chalmers forums that owns this same dozer along with an HD5 I believe. He has been very instrumental in helping us narrow down where the issue was with making this monster move. Mcrafty1 is correct, this machine is in between a D7 and D8. The weight on this one is 36,000 lbs tho I believe that is before the addition of the ripper and that huge blade. I have also purchased a 20 ton pintle trailer that the owner used to pull this monster around with a tri-axel. It's good for short haul moves but I wouldn't want to do it on the 2 1/2 hour drive away that this was getting it from it's origins to our development. I have used this hauler on numerous occasions and they have always done me well. Given I have purchased a tri-axle as well I figure this new trailer will work well for short distances for anything I have to move.... so far. I'm sure the next purchase... an excavator... will leave me needing a tractor/trailer rig eventually. This machine is in fantastic shape. Runs very well and with the temporary bypass we have on the modulating valve it kicks into gear immediately. Only want to do that at low idle. There are no leaks at all... I do have a bit of concern for loose tracks however there is no major wear on the pins or sprockets.. in fact... I can't really detect any which makes me wonder if the undercarriage had been overhauled in the past 4 or 5 years. I haven't determined where the adjustment is for the tension cylinder yet and have not been able to see the recoil springs because... unlike every other older dozer I've seen... this one still has the protective covers. The rear sprocket covers are missing however. Makes me wonder why they never seem to make it back on once removed. That air intake is the oddest I've seen. Comes out the right side of the engine and is open to the left side on the intake at the top. Call me odd but I really love this old equipment. It's amazing to me how well these old machines were built and how they hold up.
Final drives were a weak point on those dozers. I would reconsider increasing the stress on your final drives by adding 2 more ripper shanks.
Three ripper teeth are fine the problem comes from just running one in the center.
I don't think the ripper will mix the lime the best but will mix it some. Ripping at different angles will help. The 3 shanks look to do a great job for loosening up the soil. I wouldn't try to rip so deep the machine is struggling or the tracks are spinning if final drives are a weak point on these dozers. You may have found a pretty good old dozer that won't require extensive work. It was nice the seller helped get it running. That's a good indicator he wasn't trying to swindle you with a machine that needed major repairs. It's a big machine so you can run it easy and still get a lot done. No need to test its limits. Run it likes it's a D6 size and it should last for awhile. Run it like a D8 and it could cost you big. It's a nice machine from what we can see so far.
I'll add a little to what Vetec said and say the axle stubs were prone to stripping the splines on the 16s I know of, which was an easy fix in 1975. May be a problem finding them now idk. They are just behind the center covers on the sprokets.only about 12 or 15 inches long and 4 or5 inches in diameter. I'm going on a 50 year old memory so take it for what it's worth.
I'm still jonesing for that video
All points taken very well. Will stick with the three tines. They are doing a phenomenal job. Also will not try to go any deeper than the tooth length which is about 4 to 5". While it will go plenty deeper it does slow it down so I am in agreement regarding treating the gal with kid gloves. 4 to 5" is plenty enough and I had the scraper following behind me... I've never seen it fill up so fast. Hopefully this will substantially reduce the time to move all this soil. I've found that is most difficult to video and drive the dozer at the same time. Will have one of my guys tomorrow video it in operation.
36K lbs for it? Off the top of my head D7's F and G approx 50K plus lbs, D8H, K approx 80K pounds thats rippered machines.
"The Allis Chalmers HD-16DP model weighs 35,700 lbs (16,193 kg)." That's what AI says anyway. Again, my guess is that is without the blade and the ripper which both are hefty. I know it dwarfs my D6. Moving from one to the other is no comparison. The D6 seems like moving to the JD350B I have from the D6.
Your D6 is much smaller than a typical D6C or D6D.
I may have lied, thinking back I believe the HD16 was between the Cat D6 and the Cat D7 of the same era, which would make the weight of the HD16 of 35,700lbs without the Blade or ripper about right, If I recall my D6C had a stated weight of around 32,000lbs without the Blade, with the blade it was around 35,000 to 36,000lbs. Again, I'm using an old memory system...lol
AI is not correct on dozer weights. To light. I need to hunt down the literature or cat power book or what ever it was called, I have not studied that stuff in over 7 years now, all in boxes. 3K lbs blade weight ? I'd think more. HD16 maybe pushing close to 40K lbs. D6D 36K lbs with blade and ripper, so darn close, so you basicaly got a D6 dozer. HeavyEquipmentForums I think this is much newer than yours. TractorData.com Allis Chalmers HD-16 Series B tractor dimensions information www.tractordata.com
Spent the better part of today addressing all the maintenance items on the HD16. Was very happy to see the slack in the tracks taken out once greasing the tension cylinder... on both sides. Let's hope it holds. No reason to believe at the moment that it won't. The zerks did require replacement as they didn't seal after greasing but new ones took care of that. Split a blade tilt hose (3/4") as I am certain the blade hadn't been tilted in a long time and there was no slack at the secure point to the cylinder and it got tugged on. Gave me a reason to break out the hose crimper and set it up on site so we have it from here forward. Tired of spending so much money on new hoses made up at other facilities. Have a Gates machine that I hadn't had set up in years. Looking to really go to town come Monday on the pond.
Just don't tighten the tracks real snug.
What Welder Dave said, too tight is as bad or worse than too lose.
What is a good source, if any, for replacement guages on the HD16? Have a desire to make this both pretty and usable again.... ok... maybe just usable.
I'm guessing amazon for cheap, and Caterpillar for expensive? Hmmm pretty? Maybe a 2 tone paint job or racing stripes? Beat the taggers to it and add some art work on the sides?
THAT's the ticket!!! Racing stripes always makes it go faster!
I used to be on here everyone but have not in a long while because I couldn't remember my password. Had to re-register, so all is well now. THE HD16DP was a D7E counterpart but like most AC machines it was a little heavier, powerful, and faster than a Cat in the same timeframe. The HD16DP was about 185 hp and with A semi U blade weighed about 45000 lbs, with this ripper I would guess about 52000. Alot of people than used to run this machine and a D7E or F said that it would out produce and outpush the Cat, I really don't know because I have only run AC but tend to believe it would. I think where AC got it is in the torque multiplication, on the 16 the multiplication is 5.06 to 1, that is some real torque there
The main problem I see with an AC being heavier than a cat is, I don't see where that weight would come from. The ones I've been close to had Detroit engines and they are not as heavy as a cat engine of the time period. And the AC's just seemed like all the plates were thin and not reinforced too well. Case in point those thin fenders in the pic above. A D7F has a rounded edge and that of course is extra material and reinforced from it. I also bet the track frames are lighter on it as well.Push beams look skinny. The canopy adds some weight, but? When I was learning there was an old direct drive I played on but that doesn't count, also I have never run a large IH dozer either. Just mostly large Cats and Komatsu's. I did like the IH scrapers we had with the IH V8 nice engine, they run both directions nicely.
My Dad operated all different makes of Bulldozers for 50 yrs.he used to say many times, that Ih, Ac‘s were faster & nimble, but would tear themselves apart .Caterpillar’s were better built, last longer, parts & service was & is excellent. I agree with You that the AC 16 is comparable to a Cat D7E, I have run both both, the 16 was nice to operate, but was harder on fuel, parts & service were hard to get to get, preferred the D7E, also ran FA HD 21C, nice tractor, but didn’t last long in our harsh environment and couldn’t keep up with.the D8H. Where is AC & IH now. Cheers
Those look a lot like Stewart Warner gauges, maybe look into those.
In my opinion, had AC not ran into financial doom due to poor decisions made from high up they would still be one of the top builders of heavy construction equipment/ agri equipment...but that isn't the case so if anyone came out on top I guess Cat would be it. I still wonder today where AC would have been had they been still in business and doing research and development along the way like those that survived until now.
Understanding that I am still getting my feet wet.... I'll throw in my 2 cents. I am finding the A/C far easier to work on than the D6. From my research that was a big plus in the day regarding A/C. You could remove major portions of the dozer... like transmission... and not have to affect the engine or final drives. Same applies to working on the engine without having to affect the transmission. I found dropping a belly pan to get to the transmission from underneath to be quite easy to do on the HD16. The brand I find the most horrendous to have to work on in any fashion is John Deere. Don't get me started about the 260 skidsteer I have. What an absolute pain in the behind to even have to change a hydraulic hose. And now I understand John Deere is working on a model they forbid you to work on their equipment all together. No thank you! They can keep it. I like knowing what's under me which is why I enjoy mechanican on them as well. It's no different than a vehicle... the more you know/understand about what's under you the better your ability to recognize when something ain't quite right.
Regarding the simple oil, temp, and voltage or ammeter gauges I agree with you. My concern is trying to find those specialty gauges... converter oil gauge, etc.
SW still makes all of those gauges, they may just have a different look.
Yep worked for a dealer for close to 50 years and the whole problem started when they got into bed with Fiat!
I agree. I did an engine overhaul on a JD grader, worse machine to work on. I have never run a JD dozer either. Cat would have those look of gauges if they still have them. As some in the pic look familiar.
You mean like Chrysler did?
If I recall correctly AC went away from Detroit Diesels early on and and switched to the Buda diesel, it was a four stroke and was a good engine, so much so that AC bought out the company and branded the engine with the AC name. Likely with some changes, but regardless it was a good engine as I recall.
Actually some parts of the world, Australia being one I've learned about still have a fair number of AC's in service. They're were many and so there's still an ample supply of parts to be found, albeit used but available enough to keep them working.
So I have purchased two wireless cameras that will feed to a 7" monitor I am setting up on the HD16. One camera will be looking at the ripper and letting me know it's position and the other will be looking at the blade. This particular blade is so large that you can't see the actual cutting edge and it's position in the dirt before it wants to plunge into the ground. I am having heaps of problems with creating a washboard path. This is where I'd like to have a seasoned operator/mentor to get pointers on how to avoid that. Hope to have video results this evening.
When I first started out I asked a friend for advice. He said when the dozer goes down you go up. When it goes up you go down.
Just takes time to get a feel for how the machine is moving over the path the blade is creating and how much to move the lever. Small adjustments with the blade, lightly bumping the lever. Gotta get your butt sending direct signals to your arm.
lol! Ya know.... it does a great job doing that when I find myself at quite a pitch with the dozer.... guess I need to listen to the subtlety of my behind when the wash boarding is occurring.
I wouldn't waste your valuable time with cameras. You just need seat time. It will come.
Homer, sit in the seat, set the blade on the ground. Now, look at the left and then right back side of blade. Where is the top of the blade in relation to: top of radiator, top of tracks. How much of the backside of blade can you see down low? What is the distance from push arm to ground? How much lift cylinder rod shows? Now you have an idea what the picture is flat and level. All these things your brain will take in in one glance as you're pushing. Now, as you move and begin to load the blade listen to the engine, listen to the transmission whine, listen to the slap slap slap of the tracks coming over the idlers. All these sounds tell you how hard the tractor is working. If you have a clear space, close your eyes and push by feel and sound. The camera for the blade is just going to cause you grief, as others have said, it takes seat time. All the information you need is there to see and feel and hear. It will come.
I remember being at an auction that had some AC's there were oldtimers there that agreed they were better "all around". Cat was far better for durability but not for ease of repair.
So what gear are you in? And how big of load your pushin? I find it waste full and funny when some operators, do heavy bulking of dirt and worry about how it looks, they try to bulk like its a finish cut, and slows ya down. Yup lots of secrets how to do a dozer. And not everyone is going to do it like others think is the only way to go. Just know where the finish grade is suppose to be and make all the ugly above that, when getting close then start cleaning it up. And if after say 2 years and you get the hang of it then it will go smoother for ya.. And I can't stand bosses or who ever nick picking as you go, I say see how long it takes and what it looks like when finished, the 2 most important things.
True, it always looks worse before it looks better.
sled dog.... All of what you offered, as well as everyone else is very much appreciated. I have always said that when you sit yourself into a machine like these it eventually becomes an extension of your body. I am already attuned to the sounds and such. I do have plenty of room to try the closing eyes and going by feel. I will try a fair amount of that today. The camera system works well. I have one camera trained on the blade which I haven't been using as I have been doing ripping. The other is trained on a tine of the ripper which has helped a lot regarding controlling my depth of ripping. These cameras have a big heavy duty magnetic base and hold very well to the machine. Mounted the monitor to the canopy within arms reach. I have ordered new gauges for it. Still looking for the unique ones like the converter gauge. Looking forward to getting those operable again. doughd16b has set up a series of hydraulic pressure gauges to various points of his HD16. Given my background in controls and automation I am very keen to feedback and having the ability to know when things are not quite right. I ordered a few hydraulic gauges to do the same. Need to do some research to identify the different working pressures on the HD16. I may find I do the same with the D6. An interesting observation with the HD16. I rarely if ever here the motor actually load down. All other machines I have I am very aware of that.. including the D6. This monster just doesn't load which does give me cause for concern. It has no issues pulling the tines through the clay and I haven't really started pushing dirt with it yet on that large blade. I will be listening when I do. It turns very well both left and right.... no issues there. Tracks are remaining tight after adjustment which has me very happy.
It won't load the engine heavy unless there is an issue. That machine is a hoss as the gear reduction is crazy strong. Those machines were some of the best available at the time. I don't have an issue with a 16..............parts availability is what scares me away from them.
Howdy all. Well... let's see if this is going to work. A couple of links to video from the new cameras on the HD16. There is no sound which I am checking into but these are two videos taken simultaneously. One looking at the tine and the other at the back of the tine frame and out the back side of the dozer. These are hosted on my server and are short 1 minute videos. For anyone that wants to give it a go, go ahead and go to the links in your browser and download the file shown in each link. These forums would not allow me to post them here. 163041-1.AVI LCEnt Dropbox - a safe home for all your data dropbox.lcent.com 162943-2.AVI LCEnt Dropbox - a safe home for all your data dropbox.lcent.com Please provide some feedback of your experience. If this works this is how I'll make video's in the future available. As soon as I get the sound thing figured out I will begin to incorporate that as well. This monster has like a 6" exhaust on it and is just 'throaty'. Those who remember Thrush glasspacks will know what I am talking about.
Engine not loading down? Either you have never put a load on the machine or a torque converter issue or transmission or steer clutches etc. Look for a stall speed check spec. And that test better load it some. The funky video deal does not work for me. Not everyone will want to join a club to watch them, maybe a microsoft media file or youtube.
I am only using 1st gear and the load is about 25 to 50%. I'm not trying to make it look pretty.... I am far from that... I'm just trying to push dirt and not be rocking up and down constantly. The cutting edge of the HD16 extends about 5 it 6" beyond the frame of the blade which makes it difficult to know where it's at when you can't see it from the seat. Consequently it's already in the ground and diving deeper before I know it. This is why I wanted the camera on the blade.
Join a club? Never asked for that. Further... doesn't suggest so when I tested the video. I would never do a microsoft media file and Youtube/Google can... (Thinking better of what I actually had here). I've been involved with the Internet since it's inception... Google is no friend to anyone. Are you saying that you just don't want to go through the motions of downloading the video? It's an avi file which is the longest running video file format in the book. Most browsers will play it back automatically but if it isn't then I want to know that and can change it to an MP4 if necessary. Disclaimer.... I have owned and operated an Internet Service Provider (ISP) since 1999. We have our own server farm hosted in our own facilities. Among many other server based services we have our own dedicated pic server for those that own heavy equipment where they can post pics of their equipment with links they can use to reference the pics on other sites. I'm not selling anything here. Just adding info regarding my back ground.
chidog... can you give this link a whirl and let me know if it will play automatically? hd16-rake-cam.mp4 LCEnt Dropbox - a safe home for all your data dropbox.lcent.com Here is the compliment video.... hd16-rear-cam-162940.mp4 LCEnt Dropbox - a safe home for all your data dropbox.lcent.com
Yes that worked okay. Oh and run the ripper like you would the blade, bury that shank at least 3/4 the way in the ground, and operate the ripper lever to keep the bar from hitting the ground, yeah most people will laugh at that. Are you going to make any longer video's? Its awesome all the irons you've had and have in the fire.
They don't work for me. ...they work now, thanks
Glad that works for all. I'll make sure the links I post are mp4 as apposed to avi. I've found these particular cameras do not have audio so for those that want to hear this beast I'll record video with audio separately.
Hey all... anyone with experience on a scraper? Please check this new thread out.... HeavyEquipmentForums