Ooops. http://salvagesale.assetnation.com/...source=SS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=49772 Wonder what the wall looked like?
Better a wall than a bridge or oncoming traffic. One of these days, the manufacturer is going to lose a product liability lawsuit over joystick steering control and that will be the end of those stupid things on motor graders, and a return to the steering wheel. I would not be surprised to find litigation ongoing already. At least by offering both wheel and joy stick controls, Deere may have cleverly shifted liability to the user by virtue of having forced the operator to pick the system in use at the time of a "calamitous event".
It doesnt say if it was a mechanical failure that led to hitting the wall, or if the person who was unloading was responsible for the damage. It may have just been someone who never sat in a grader seat who tried to unload it.
I hope the operator is OK, that windshield really took a shot. It's pretty clear this was a case of an untrained operator, in order to hit a wall that hard three things had to have gone awry, acceleration, direction and steering. I'll admit I haven't operated a joystick grader, but I have been on machines that in the past had steering wheels and evolved to levers or joysticks. There is a learning curve on anything and until an operator is comfortable with a machine regardless of the controls, he doesn't belong in it doing detail work.
I've never been on a joystick grader either, but how do you get going fast enough to do that kind of damage unless you really open the throttle up? And if you aren't proficient on the type, why would you?
I wonder how he got that much speed up unloading? Unless he was going down the ramps frontwards and took it out of gear or something?
That may be the case Mitch. We have had nothing but issues with our M series when it comes to lack of steering and transmission control. I would guess the two could have combined to cause a runaway, though, why wouldn't they have hit the brakes. I'm unaware of any instances of brake problems, with our machines anyhow.
I'd have to guess that there is more to the story than is being told. The machine is also an M2 and I haven't heard of any of the problems that plagued the early machines. One thing for sure though, the guy driving it was not an operator!
I've never run that type of JD grader, but I would sure like the option of a steering wheel! Not much wiggle room on the Cats and we had the steering detents removed on the control stick as the steady operators, (not me!) found they were very tiresome on the wrist having to push through the neutral position detent all the time. So now it is a smooth transition from left to right with no obvious center position. I find the steering more difficult at slow working speeds than roading speeds. Some of the steady operators love the steering though and solemnly swear they would not want a return to those big ole wheels!
I was a test dummy for JD when they were designing their joystick steer blade (they were keeping a small steering wheel) I wondered then WHY lever steer? The steering wheel and antler bar had worked fine from when they stopped using horses to pull blades. I had to run a 160M for the company I was with for 25+ years, didn't like it, luckily I was going to retire soon anyway so I stuck it out, when I roaded that THING back to the Cat dealer I was asked how I liked it, I told them if they gave me one free and clear and the only stipulation was I'd have to run it every day, I would pass on it. More power to those that like 'em, just not my cuppa tea!!!!
Where's the Evidence I viewed all the pictures and read the short story line and did not see any evidence that this was caused by a Joystick so I must respectfully disagree with the title of the post. There is however plenty of evidence that numerous warnings were ignored before the accident took place. There are bright label warnings in the cab and in the OM&M to wear the seatbelt and that state DO NOT run the machine unless you have read and understand the operator’s manual. While in the seat today with the seatbelt on and stretching hard I can barely touch the front window with my hand. Leaning forward and stretching the top of my head clears the dashboard by 6 inches and the front window by 18 inches. The machine was designed so there is no way that a person’s head can contact the front window if the seat belt is on. The second you sit down in the seat it activates the Information Display to read; “Seatbelt Required” with an exclamation mark beside it. If you release the parking brake without the seatbelt on then another amber warning in the gage cluster comes on and the man with a seatbelt symbol shows up in the gear/hour meter display. If you place the transmission in gear without the seatbelt on then a Red Level II Warning light starts flashing in the gage cluster plus all the previous warnings listed are still present. So there is evidence here that the person (I can’t call them an operator because I don’t know them) ignored the multiple warnings! Now the person wrecks the machine and smashes their grey matter container into the window after ignoring all these warnings and someone wants to blame the Joystick. Reminds me of the time when a pickup driver crashed into the screed of our paving machine while we were paving on a highway project. Damn near killed the screed operator! The driver passed an electronic message board, 14 different HV signs (Road Construction Ahead, Reduce Speed, 35 MPH Double Fines, One Lane Road Ahead, Flagmen Ahead and on and on) and ran through the flag station before crashing into the paver. In court the driver’s lawyer claimed it was the contractors fault because we hadn’t given his client enough warning to slow down! Go Figure? I’ve seen plenty on accidents involving equipment being unloaded and loaded; there are lots of videos even on YouTube showing equipment rolled over and wrecked while loading and unloading. So in each one of these accident videos on YouTube where is the argument to change the controls or return to the former control system whatever that may be? There are a lot of good engineers in Decatur Illinois and a whole lot more good hard working Blue Collar Americans building these machines in Little Rock Arkansas. I would like to thank every one of them for designing and building a machine that I look forward to operating every day. Regards, Randy
If there is one application where joy stick steering trumps all else, it is on articulated log skidders. Nothing quite like it in woods. I understand CAT has entertained something similar with it's larger wheel loaders. That may actually work better than the steering wheel. But when it comes to graders, CAT may have cut it's own throat, IMHO. I don't have time to load these videos on my slow speed connection, but I suspect the issue is being aired here from Deere's point of view: http://events.deere.com/youreon/episodes/?ep=2 Nothing like making hay for the Deere while the CAT sleeps. Some guys on a message board who seem to know what they're talking about: HeavyEquipmentForums
Out of respect to Randy and Caterpillar I believe I should have given more regard to the title of the thread before posting. As he stated all types of machines have crashed especially while being loaded or unloaded. Definitely inexperience or at least disregard for the safety warnings played a large part in this situation. I posted it in hopes of getting the great debate going again just to see what replies would be not to single out any manufacturer or machine type.
Randy, to clarify, I have no issues with joysticks, however, I do prefer a steering wheel for roading a machine. That being said, I do have very big issues with a steering system that doesn't function as it should, whether it's a joystick setup, or a steering wheel setup. I really don't like travelling down the road, and with no warning, having the machine turn left in front of an oncoming haultruck with no input and no chance of correcting it without shutting down and doing a 24V reset.
I have ran the new M series alot, and i love it, and am pretty good. But you put on an H an im not near the operator, hate the steering wheel and the controls, but that it probably cause i learned on the M. However I have roaded the new M series a few times and I've had my butt hole puckered the whole time. In high gear the controls are just to sensitive.
I can't speak for the smaller machines, but the 16M and 24M are IMO, garbage. Way too unreliable. Had a 16 last week that kept burning out the secondary steering motor, was traced to a couple of dodgy earths behind the dash. Been many more steering faults before that too. Then there's leaking tandems. The 24M had both sides rebuilt a month ago and it was redone this week on one side. The 16s have had their tandems done and redone.
EH 4000: Well, that took me the longest time to finally figure out what " dodgy earths " were as I figured it was some sort of Aussie slang for some type of dirt, but I couldn't see how it got behind the dash?? Now I think if it were to be roughly translated into far north Canuck it would mean " a poor ground ". Right? Good way of putting it nonetheless. I'll try that out on a few mechanics I know!
Yeah mate, earth = ground.
OK, discuss it. And just what is this argument, Mr. Diagonal Brace? The condition report on auction website says OPERATOR LOST CONTROL AND HIT A WALL. QUOTE....I posted it in hopes of getting the great debate going again....END QUOTE If you need to bash joystick steering then say so. The experience with joystick steering here for drivers running our township machine is positive, no problems due to the steering, and yes we are out running on public roads meeting vehicles. If you need to know when I personally have had steering issues with a machine it was on a 140G plowing snow, o-rings failed on a valve spool near the front of the machine under the beam, required constant rapid turning of the steering wheel to run straight. Interesting 5 mile drive to get back to the shop. Per the US government census website, Census.gov, Motor Vehicle Accidents, there were 11,600 deaths in 2009 from collision accidents with fixed objects. If you are going to start the discussion with a grader crash, then I will use this statistic to show that steering wheel equipped vehicles have resulted in deaths, and lots of them. Steering wheels must be unsafe, what were the manufacturers thinking? Motorcycle deaths at 4500 must surely be due to the superior steering mechanism.
sdPete, Those stats are meaningless without the ratios of deaths in each class of vehicles to number of drivers in each vehicle class. Sounds scary, but may not be the case. Having at least some experience with cars, motorcycles and M Series Cat graders, I can attest that cars suck, pickups are word, motorcycles, you are one with the machine, and Cat M SERIES graders suck worse than cars. :drinkup Dodgy earth = bad ground??? Pray the platypus duck don't get stuck in the muck.
Statistics show that the majority of those accidents were caused by 'a loose nut behind the wheel'.
Well might as well throw my opinion out there, for all you guys that's bashing the M series grader must not like change I've ben running blades for 6 yrs now learned on and old cat 120, then got in to a 140G then an 140 H I'm now operating 2 2012 140M AWD and I love them ben on them for 2 yrs now and there are no issues with the joystick steering I've done slope work, plowed snow run down busy highways with it and have had no problems what so ever with controll. Like Randy said earlier there are plenty of warnings for the operator to know that they should understand how to operate the machine before they start moving it around. The city of Sioux Falls leases 24 M series blades every winter for snow removal that's a busy city and they have had no problems with them I can garentee you if they did they wouldn't keep on leasing them
I ran a M series in Tuson several years agoe.I have never been on a grader in my life and got along very well.Not a true real test for sure but at least I had no problems.
Sioux falls leases 24M's? That's a big machine just to plow snow
An old 212-E CAT grader just can't be beat. :drinkup
24 m graders not 24M's I have 2500 hrs. behind the sticks of 1 and have no complaints. Ran e,f,g,h's also over 27 yrs. and they all are a step forward.
The same argument has been all through the history of construction equipment, every time a machine has been changed or upgraded, the user complains. I know operators that ran knuckle busters that didn't like hydraulics, cable hoe hands that didn't like hydro machines and on and on and on. When the M series is upgraded to the next big thing, everyone will complain about that one too. I have a horse drawn road grader that works on the same principle as all these newfangled jiggers, A blade in between the front and rear wheels acting as a plane to level the surface, pretty simple concept really. While it is a wonderful feeling to make grade with that old grader, When it comes time to get some real footage done, I'll take that M any day of the week. While I've never been a huge fan of the joysticks, it's part of the evolution of iron and you have to adapt or the boss is going to find someone who will.
Every where I have seen shows it as 24M, not 24 M, even CAT's website. I'd choose an M series over an H any day, side by side on the same haul road a 14M will out work a 14H from what I've seen.
I think he means quantity 24 of M series graders.
Just wanted to see what peoples experiences have been now that there are many more in the field. Similar experiences, close calls, unsolvable troubleshooting woes. Seem to have a little bit of everything here. Thats all.
LOL I get it now!
M Series are just the ducks nuts as far as I am concerned having run them all. Would even turn my nose up now at a job that didnt have one. Backfill, rehab, trimming just the ducks nuts! 2009 model 14M at the moment just magic and no complaints.
I run a 2008 14M, and it has been a heck of a machine. There has been various little bugs, but Cat has been johnny on the spot fixing and upgrading the machine. In the summer I blade dirt building roads, and in the winter I use it for snow plowing and removal. In the winter there is tons of driving on public roads meeting cars and such, and I feel as comfortable weaving around guard-rails and on-coming cars on the highways as I do with an H. Also, after 14 hours my body feels a lot better at the end of the day in comparison to the H. The ergonomics are excellent, plus they are very user friendly. The cab also has great visibility, and is roomy. It does not take a while for any one to figure out on how to make things work, and it becomes second nature very quickly it seems. Every thing is nice and quick as well. I don't mind the H's, but I would take an M over an H any day. But, I do wish the engine from the H was in the M! I also have ran the John Deere 872GP, and it is also a great machine. I love the controls, and it has great power and the AWD almost makes you think you are in something 14 sized! But oddly enough, it seems we almost have had more issues with the Deere than the Cat M series. They are minor, but they are adding up. I think it may have more to due to the fact that the Deere is an early model GP series. Sorry for rambling on, I thought I would share my experience with the M. Take care guys.
Vapor I suppose you operate a John Dear or is it dear John
i seen on John Dear Bh's and Ch's that the articulation cylinders have malfunctioned, does that mean John Dear is liable? I dont think so.
LOL, is does if the injured parties get the right plaintiffs attorney. Wouldn't that be plumb duck nuts. CAT (I dunno about Deere) provides a locking pin to eliminate articulation when roading, and CAT boldly tells you to use it when roading one of their graders. Of course, no one ever uses the drop pin, but it's presence and notice to use it gets CAT off the hook in the U.S. Maybe CAT has eliminated this safety feature on the M Series and left providence in the hands holding the joy sticks that make the bloody things articulate.
Who to blame CAT retains enough lawyers to understand product liability and what it takes to put a machine on the market with minimal litigation risk. The 140M graders here have received required machine updates when determinations are made that safety is a critical concern. A couple in particular might be of interest, the 4 bolts which attach the cab to the frame were replaced because a flaw in some bolt threads meant the factory applied torque did not result in proper compression of the cab mounts. Another correction was made to a connector on the transmission which caused the transmission to go into park lockup without operator input. The steering joystick is a triple redundant switch, as I understand it if one of the circuits malfunctions the other two maintain steering operation. However, a computer code will set to call for controller service. The articulation lock is present on M graders, as well as a switch which disables implement hydraulic functions, recommended for road use to prevent unintended actions while in transport mode. Despite all design features the possibility of operator error is going to exist, a problem which remains unchanged from the origin of machines. Some would put forth the quote "you can't fix stupid". I did read an article a while back which reviewed large construction projects, think Brooklyn bridge or Panama canal, and the loss of worker lives that went on. Such activity would not be tolerated today. Many an older construction project manager knew that a person died here and there on the job, that was common and taken in stride. Today there is close to a zero tolerance for loss of life in work related activity, for multiple reasons including safe machine design. I can recall several instances of drivers somehow putting their foot on the wrong pedal in a vehicle resulting in a sudden unanticipated vehicle movement. One such event around here sent a car through the wall of a nursing home and took the life of a resident. Yet I do not see any campaign to redesign vehicle pedals to prevent such problems. It would not surprise me to learn that some year a new vehicle feature will include an alarm which sounds when the steering wheel senses that two hands are not gripping it. And some pictures, decide if the steering was at fault.
WOW what happened to the Deere?
nut backed off and the steering wheel popped off.........wait, its only a design fault if someone wrecks a cat machine
Yes, OMG, what happened to the Deere??? sdPete, the liability I am talking about involves design defect on the part of the manufacturer, and not negligence by an operator. The thing that bothered me the most about the two M's I ran briefly several years ago was when holding onto the steering joy stick while roading, an unexpected bump would cause the joy stick to toggle the lever slightly, but there was often enough change in steering projectory to be of concern. Also if I went to use the other function in that lever there frequently occurred a cross-activation of the steering to be bothersome. Another negative for me was, being a little long in the tooth now and getting stiff in all the wrong places, looking back over my right shoulder was much more difficult holding onto the joy stick lever with the left hand than a steering wheel. All of this seemed to negatively affect the M's stability and control while finishing and grading out. I was glad to get back on an H. I know that CAT has done a lot of followup work on the M steering that I am not familiar with. Maybe CAT has eliminated the product liability risk I found inherent in the M. But I sense that even now, after several years in field application, I sense strong sentiment exists in some if the rank and file to abandon CAT graders in the M configuration.
Bluetop Man, appreciate the reply. My background on grader operations is much different than yours, as our machine sees maybe 15-20 hours per year doing off road dirt projects all the rest is on township gravel roads. Snow operations run at 10-17 mph, steering gets learned pretty quick, there is no alternative. I trained a driver who left the blade in the air and wandered from side to side for half a mile before he settled down, finally returned after 2 miles said he could do it, put the blade down and ran a few hours. Said it took him a couple days to finally relax but he did it, 55 yrs old. Another guy who had run our H for years got in the M and went through quite a struggle with a joystick in each hand , he had lots of time running a skid loader. But he persevered and does fine today. Current driver has never run anything but an M and thinks nothing of it, although he would like to get in an older machine sometime just to see how that would go. At road speed there is no looking over the shoulders so we run by the mirrors and that works for gravel as well. I watch the guys come on the yard here and they all back the machine into position using the mirrors. That might not fit your situations. Bumps and joysticks are tough. We went through a lot of that plowing snow, if you get the heel of the blade wrong the tandems will get a lope going and the ride goes to heck, impossible to run the sticks with any fine control. (Steering wheel machines also do it) I gave the shop foreman, salesman, and territory man an earful about switch configuration, it took 3 years but they eventually released a custom harness add-on that put the blade roll on an unused switch on the auxiliary control so now the driver can do snow with one hand on the steering stick and one hand on the auxiliary control, the right stick is used mainly for throttle control. Cat also released a software update that allowed for coarse, medium, and fine hydraulic response (only had equivalent of coarse before), this was a huge improvement on blade control. I do miss being able to steer with either hand, but that was something the driver had to do on an antler machine. And if you steered with the same hand all the time that shoulder got sore, happened a lot running the G in cold weather as the heater did not get the back of the cab warm so all the cold air off the back window landed on the shoulders. Don't miss that, now the coat comes off and I plow snow in comfort. Think I have said this before, but Sioux Falls leases 24 140M AWD machines for snow removal. Back when those were first introduced a few of the drivers were astounded as they were used to wearing their thumbs raw steering around obstacles, the joystick was almost too good to be true. Believe they just finished the 4th season with M graders, I have not been told that joystick Cats are a problem and yes they also run Deere machines in the snow. The M machines are a 6 month lease, returned to the dealer and sold, that is how this township got one.
Bluetopping with manual labor on the ground, the mirrors are insufficient. You have to look back each time you back up. Last one I didn't run over was a petite little blonde who's hair color was just a shade different than the CAT yellow on my 140H, and stuck up above the radiator just enough to know she was back there. Poor girl didn't have a clue what that beeping was about, but she knwe all about moaning and groaning, according to one of the foremen. Likewise working in between forms requires looking back over your shoulder. But who does either these days? It's all GPS grade control and slip form paving now. Appreciate your in depth comments, sd Pete. Gave me something to cogitate on. The first D6 with diff steer I got on, I swore that was crap. A month later, you couldn't give me one of those old **'s with pull levers. Then I got a taste of the two-finger toggle switch steering on a D6, and that was the CAT's meow for me. The CAT hydrostatic small dozers are simply duck nuts for an operator. Maybe the M Series steering just went over my head. But that's how I got to be an old phart in this business. Knowing when to duck. And when to hustle blondes and when to hustle brunettes.
Interesting thread. I saw the salvage sale lot and my first thought was that it was probably someones firts time on a M series, possibly their first time on much of any equipment. When things went wrong, they did not have the sense of mind to step on the brake pedal, and quite possibly stepped on the throttle instead. Seeing this discussion, I thought of an experience I had. My first year in the trade, I went to park an old Fiat Allis grader that had just been delivered. I was experienced on a 14G, and this was a little toy, only an 8' wide blade on it. I got in, and was confronted with an unusual set of controls. The machine was old, and all the labels were gone, so I sat in it for a few minutes and tried each one to find out what worked what. when I was comfortable with the controls, I looked at the transmission levers. There were three. They as the others were also unlabeled. Through trial and error, I figured out that there was one for forward and reverse, one for low and high range, and one was a three speed shifter, so with the three speed and high low, it had six gears each direction. Once I had that figured, I started to drive it into the fenced compound to be parked over the weekend for use the following week. The machine was not articulated, and I misjudged the turn into the gate, so I was going to need to back up and make another try at it. I was on a downhill stretch, and with the lack of turning ability, I was headed for a fire hydrant. I pushed the brake pedal down, and to my surprise, it went to the floor with no brake effort whatsoever. I am pretty levelheaded under stress, so I did two things. First, I started lowering the blade, but judged that due to the slow response it would not touch the ground in time, so I decided to go for reverse. At that point, I looked at the three nearly identical levers, and tried to determine the right one. Remember, no labels on any of them. I made my choice, and pulled the lever that was forward back, expecting to find reverse, but instead surged forward as the lever was the low high, and I pulled it into high, insuring the fate of the fire hydrant. Realizing the error, I grabbed the other lever, which was the right one, and backed up, but it was about 2 feet too late. This whole time, my left hand was firmly pushing down on the left blade lever, and shortly after backing up, it finally made it to the ground. So, who was at fault here? There are several choices, Fiat Allis for a poorly designed machine, the rental house for sending it in worn condition and with non functioning brakes, or me for being behind the wheel of it at the time? I took responsibility at the time, as I was in charge of the job, and in the seat, but I screamed loudly for the machines owner to step up and be responsible. As I recall, all they did was come pick up the machine and not charge anything. My employer was on the hook for the damaged hydrant, and I was in the hot seat because of it.
Honestly I would say you. If you had checked to see if the brakes worked before moving it, you could have had a plan b setup BEFORE getting into the situation. If you knew going into it that they didn't work you probably would have had the blade a lot closer to the ground, or one had on the forward reverse lever. People seem awfully ready to pass the blame, instead of taking responsibility for their actions. (this isn't a shot at you JDOFMEMI, just something that always bugs me and you posted that at the right time :drinkup )Just my 2 cents worth.
A U.S. court of law would most likely find the rental agency primarily liable for damages, with the rest being apportioned to you, jdofmemi, and your employer. A lot depends on whose got the deepest pockets if there is serious damages. A fire hydrant, no biggie. Something like a RR track gets their attention better. Don't ask me how I know this. In my case, who was at fault, me for going over a temporary 2-track crossing and hanging one rail with a 12F bladetip, or or the foreman who told me get over there knowing all the while the crossing was not finished and remained unsafe to cross? Sh*t happens. You be the judge. Then there was my buddy who slammed a 621 scraper into a large pine tree in a Houston, TX haul road. Was it his fault for hitting the tree, or God's fault for planting the tree in a haul road in the first place? Many pints later, we blamed Him...
You can get the M's with a backup camera installed to do away with the over the shoulder driving.
Yeah had a guy seriously hurt in TX because the guy on the blade was to lazy to look behind him. Backing up is hard to get used to in the M, took me awhile to be able to backup at high speed but i got the hang of it after awhile. Bluetop I was wondering if you have ever cut hubs with an M? The biggest complain i heard from the old guys on the H's was that you cant feel the hub in the M like you can an H, same with shouldering up,
Never cut hubs with an M, sdPete, just roughed in for the trimmer on subgrade and soiled cement base, then rock base ahead of the trimmer. And never did a whole lot of that with an M. But I have done it all from everything from a 212E to a 140H, and I think those old guys are right. The M lacks feedback in my opinion. Road feel they call it. Sort of like comparing a 14G to a 12G. The fourteen is a pig wallowing in the mud by comparison. Actually, it is amazing how unstable a G is compared to a fixed frame CAT grader like the 12F. The G's rock like a bass boat in six foot swells, whereas the F's are much steadier. Does that affect your ability to cut fine grade? Austin Bridge thought so, and I knew two world class blademen at Brown and Root who couldn't get on a G model. And the company kept them on F's until they retired is my understanding. But if I ever go back to work, I'm going to insists on an M Series for myself. Then connect the damned thing via bluetooth to an iPhone where Siri is standing by to take my verbal commands and relay them to the blade, or as we call them here in Louisiana, USA, the motor patrol. I plan on using the backup camera to download and run youtube videos 24/7. And now I'm off to read that other thread about joy sticks on Komatsu graders.
I am new here. I have operated Cat graders for 15 yrs. for a road comm. ( 11 yrs on a 143) The last few yrs on my 14M, the joysticks are AWESOME! Operation for steering is VERY smooth since the detent was taken out.Almost no fatigue now even after 10hr days. Very intuitive, makes an operator 10 times better almost overnight.
Sorry for typo.....140M